So... We know how Surprise Works. For those of you that don't, it basically says if you're caught unawares, you skip your first round and you can't use reactions until after your initiative in the first round passes, even though you can't take a move/standard/bonus action regardless of your initiative.
Combat Begins...
-Ambushers and Defenders roll Initiative -Round 1 Begins -Ambushers get their full turns and actions -Defenders effectively skip this turn, however, their 'Surprise' fades once their turn passes despite them not being able to act, but now they have access to Reactions -Round 1 Ends, everything is back to normal combat starting with Round 2
Where did Round 1 Begin?
1 - Did it begin with the INTENTION of combat? If so, why? Let's say I'm a Rogue sneak attacking an unaware Monk. If I start combat by intending to attack, but realize that I've lost the initiative roll, why wouldn't I simply not attack and just wait for a round where I've won the initiative? Does the Monk magically become aware that he's under attacks simply because I lost initiative? EDIT: This is Meta knowledge either way because the Defender gets to react to something that his perception did not notice, or the Ambusher gets to cycle rounds until they get what they want anyway. Either way, it comes off as a poor way to mechanically represent a Surprise Attack.
2 - Did it begin after the Sniper Rogue looses her arrow and lands her attack? Does that mean the round starts after the attack lands and I get a free opener so long as my ambush went completely unnoticed? This is mechanically very powerful, especially for something like the Assassin, because it gives them a consistent chance at getting their crits off so long as they were successful in setting up their ambush.
3 - Did it begin after the arrow is loosed but before the attack lands? If so, why would the Monk even get a reaction? If he hasn't noticed the Rogue in the first place, why does he get to notice an arrow if he failed his perception already? What if the arrow was invisible and silent? What if a firearm was used? What if I'm casting a spell from invisibility? What justifies the victim of an ambush (Surprise Immunity notwithstanding, of course) deserving an initiative in the first place? Or at the very least, why is he getting reactions when the attack that triggers combat hasn't even gone off as of yet? Why does his Surprise fade when the Ambush hasn't even begun in the first place?
My problem with #1 - This gives Meta power to one side or the other, so I HATE IT. Apologies for the lack of composure, but this either means the Victim of an Ambush has foreknowledge of the attack simply by its mechanical nature, OR the Ambusher simply gets to ignore initiative until its in their favor. Either way, this is... a terrible ruling that encourages Meta play. It is frictional at its very core and doesn't feel appropriate regardless of who benefits from it. At the risk of seeming petulant, I am going to go on the record saying I will flip this table if this is the official ruling!
My problem with #2 - While it makes the most sense, it greatly empowers ambushers, giving them, essentially, a free starter action. Not the entire ambushing group, naturally, but at least one Ambusher gets to kick off the fight with an action. Granted, that may be appropriate because... Well, they got the drop on you, but something like an Assassin Rogue can pretty much all but decide a fight before it starts. Then again, that may be the entire point behind being an assassin. If I were playing any sort of stealth character, I would want this. If I were playing any sort of non-stealth reliant character, I would hate this.
My problem with #3 - ... In theory, it might sound reasonable, but in practice, it gives unreasonable defense against setting up ambushes in the first place.
Example: Let's say you've built a sniper fighter. And you've stacked stealth to truly ridiculous levels. You want to get the drop on a Monk from hiding using, I dunno, some ammunition that inflicts a debilitating status. You roll a 20 on your Stealth and he rolls a 1 on his Perception or you just take his passive perception. Not only will he not see you, the discrepancy is SO HIGH that you can attack and still not be noticed. However your entire attack is ruined. Why? Because you fired your weapon and initiative was rolled. The surprised Monk rolls a 15 on his initiative and you roll a 5. He doesn't get to act, but now he gets to deflect your attack. He rolls 9 on the deflect and not only does he block the attack entirely, but based on this interpretation, he can't Ki-throw the arrow back at you BECAUSE HE CAN'T SEE YOU, but he somehow saw the arrow in its flight and deflected it despite being caught entirely unawares. Note, this would be perfectly reasonable for a Surprise-Immune Character.
Another Example: Sorcerer surprises the Wizard Gal by sneaking up on her while she's eating in her room, casting Fireball or Dominate Person from invisibility. Sorcerer goes to throw spell at Wizard. Rolls a 15. Wizard gal Nat 20's her initiative roll. Wizard does the only thing she can do... She casts Counterspell as a Reaction because the Sorcerer took a hostile action and became visible. Sorcerer now knows to not bother with setting up for Ambush because an initiative roll can render the entire point moot.
Yet A Third Example: A Divination Wizard with Temporal Shunt can now tell a Rogue to go Sneak Attack himself consistently because A) The Rogue crits his Stealth AND initiative, but the Divination Wizard says, "Actually, I rolled a 16 and Portent says you rolled a 4 on initiative, because these dice say so. And I'm now casting Temporal Shunt as a Reaction to your attack and you we'll see you in another Round where I get to now respond and can set up a reaction to your reappearance with something like... Oh, I dunno, Fast Friends or something else that targets your weaksauce Wisdom save, which I will then Portent so that you fail that roll as well!" (Note: I totally support a Divination Wizard being allowed to do this regardless of the ruling because... Well, they can see the future. :D)
It's (1). You declaring you're going to make an attack starts initiative. If they beat you on Initiative then they have quicker reflexes - and could use a reaction when it comes to your turn - but they were surprised and didn't get to have their own turn first round.
If you think that that is 'meta knowledge' then I have to question what AC you think the enemy would have when you try to sneak attack them? If they don't know you're there - why can they add their Dexterity modifier to their AC (ignoring heavy armour here) and attempt to dodge your attack? They do get to add Dexterity though - so is that meta knowledge too?
It's certainly not (2) because the ambusher would get to go twice before the enemy does - and considering the average combat lasts 3-4 rounds - that is ridiculous. And depending on how you deal with (3) it would either end up being identical in outcome to either (1) or (2).
There is no metagaming here at all, and the rules are cool if you read them in their entirety and in particular the part about creatures losing their reaction until the end of the round (this is important because it means that they cannot react to anything a group who surprised them does).
I just wanted to reply to this bit - the OP has it right here. If someone is surprised they can take a reaction once their surprised turn is over - not after the round is over.
1- You have to remember that this is just a simulation, but that you need to interpret the results the right way. In this case, the fact is that the combat is about to start because the Monk as sensed that something is wrong. Remember that this is a mgacial world, and there are sixth, seventh, actually an infinite number of senses, fate, luck whatever you want to call it. By stating that he wanted to attack, maybe the rogue started to get out of hiding, or whatever. The only thing that the initiative roll does is recognise the fact that, in this instance, the monk was ready and he will react to the rogue attack before that rogue can do a followup, that's all. If the rogue waits, he will have lost his opportunity.
2- No, the game is very precise on this, as soon as there combat erupts, usually by someone declaring an attack, initiative has to be rolled so that the sequence of attacks and reactions happens within a controlled environment.
3- Even less so, theoretically, attacking is only an action of combat and therefore cannot be started and even less ended before combat has already been started in the order of combat as written in the PH.
#2 should not give you a problem, the ambusher HAS his free starter action in any case in the first round of combat since the monk is surprised. What he does not have is mandatorily 2 starter actions, which seems fair enough
In any case, if he is surprised, the monk does NOT get to deflect your attack, because it is using his reaction and the PH states: "If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends." So your fighter sniper should be OK.
Same for the wizard and the sorcerer, if the wizard is surprised, he cannot use his reaction to cast counterspell, the sorcerer is saved. :p
And the same with the wizard and the rogue, actually, although I must confess that I have not read that one in detail. But yes, portent is really powerful because it's not even an action, so yes, it can be used in the first round even if the wizard is surprised, because, you have pointed this out, he was not completely as he had had a glimpse of the future, which is cool.
The issue is that in the 1st Round of being Surprised, you can take your reaction rolls after the end of your first turn. So if the Monk rolls high on initiative, he can indeed deflect an arrow from a source that he didn't notice so long as he wins initiative. And mechanically, it also indicates that the Sorcerer does indeed get counterspelled.
It's (1). You declaring you're going to make an attack starts initiative. If they beat you on Initiative then they have quicker reflexes - and could use a reaction when it comes to your turn - but they were surprised and didn't get to have their own turn first round.
If you think that that is 'meta knowledge' then I have to question what AC you think the enemy would have when you try to sneak attack them? If they don't know you're there - why can they add their Dexterity modifier to their AC (ignoring heavy armour here) and attempt to dodge your attack? They do get to add Dexterity though - so is that meta knowledge too?
It's certainly not (2) because the ambusher would get to go twice before the enemy does - and considering the average combat lasts 3-4 rounds - that is ridiculous. And depending on how you deal with (3) it would either end up being identical in outcome to either (1) or (2).
To be fair, this is why Flat-Footed was a status in previous editions because there are situations where you aren't able to dodge/react, such as being unaware, tied up, or grappled. But that's another matter altogether.
But yes, it still feels like Meta play. If I'm on the receiving end of an Ambush and I win initiative, I'm then allowed to use 1 Reaction to offset the disadvantage of being ambushed despite the fact that I was completely caught off guard and have no foreknowledge of being threatened. It means that a high-initiative roll. If I'm the attacker, I can apply that knowledge to just skipping turns until I win the initiative roll.
And I agreed, (2) is too powerful in a 1v1 situation, which admittedly doesn't come up often, but it still comes up. I feel the impact isn't AS heavy in a Group Vs Group situation, but it still gives more weight to an ambush, probably more than is warranted, especially for characters like the Assassin.
(3) ... Does essentially boil down to being 1 or 2 depending on how it's ruled except for the fact that it prevents the doubling-up on attacks. (3) Essentially either gives first attacker a 20 on initiative, or it gives a substantial layer of protection to the Defender against attacks that they couldn't possibly be aware of.
And I want to clarify, I don't lean one way or another on the subject. Yeah, it'd be nice to benefit from a free action as an ambusher, but that sword cuts both ways, too. And while it would suck to ambush a character that wins initiative, it would also benefit me when I'm the Wizard Gal trying to enjoy my meal in peace.
Once Initiative has been rolled that's it - you're in Initiative. You don't get to wait and see and try again to get a new Initiative to be quicker than the enemy. Thatis meta knowledge.
I simply put a high initiative roll of an enemy being ambushed and being able to use their reaction to somehow lessen the threat of the ambush as having high reflexes. They saw you out of the corner of their eye as you revealed yourself to attack at the last moment. Something like that.
At the end of the day - as Lyxen said - this is a simulation - it can't get everything perfect.
Edit: You also have to take into account that usually an ambush involves the entire party - and the enemy may not be wise to you - but they would be to that clanky armoured Paladin you travel with.
Hmmm, your're absolutely right and this changes a lot of things. The answer is still #1 but the interpretation needs some thinking.
Right? It's pretty frustrating, not because I want to have OP ambushes, but because it takes the nature of an Ambush and turns it on its head. Defenders get to defend against attacks and spells that they have no foreknowledge of. This is something I would be 100% okay with if the defender was immune to surprise, but for something like an Evoker Wizard, this gives them the ability to cast Shield at an attack that they never knew was coming. And that feels just... off base, I guess?
And if you give that sort of meta-advantage to a defender, would you not also give the attacker the meta-advantage of being able to say, "Nah, he looks like he's on his guard, I'll wait until he looks more relaxed..." and then pass turn until you win initiative?
Once Initiative has been rolled that's it - you're in Initiative. You don't get to wait and see and try again to get a new Initiative to be quicker than the enemy. Thatis meta knowledge.
I simply put a high initiative roll of an enemy being ambushed and being able to use their reaction to somehow lessen the threat of the ambush as having high reflexes. They saw you out of the corner of their eye as you revealed yourself to attack at the last moment. Something like that.
At the end of the day - as Lyxen said - this is a simulation - it can't get everything perfect.
Edit: You also have to take into account that usually an ambush involves the entire party - and the enemy may not be wise to you - but they would be to that clanky armoured Paladin you travel with.
That's reasonable for a party. But if you were running a stealthy party for purposes of theme (Scouting Party, Thieves' Guild, Holy Assassin Squad), the entire idea of getting the jump on the enemy now comes into question... Or if you found a target of opportunity as the Rogue, the idea of being noticed in spite of beating their perception partially defeats the purpose of being stealthy in the first place.
And I know, I know, it's a simulation and no system is perfect. An imperfect representation feels more like... Poison not killing you because you have so much HP that despite never having treated it, you barely notice the damage even though you failed your saves. But this feels like less like an imperfect representation of combat and more like an oversight that wasn't fully explored.
A better solution to the approach would have been "The Instigating Attack Has An Initiative Roll of 20" so that ambushers do not get that extra action, but defenders don't get to react to actions that they have absolutely no knowledge of, such as getting shot with a Longbow from 100" away from a source that has double the stealth as the target's passive perception.
Or that the first turn in which an ambusher attacks considers all targets as surprised until that turn ends, in which all initiatives higher than the attacker are now aware and can react appropriately.
Granted, that's purely a homebrew response and I don't expect that to mean anything to anyone but the current rules iteration is just so gratingly falling short of expectations.
EDIT: It also reduces the importance of having surprise immunity in the first place. Not to imply that having immunity wouldn't still be worth something, but if you're weighing options, knowing that your high initiative (or even advantage on initiative) provides noteworthy protection from the worst results of being surprised... Well, I think it would influence the decision-making process.
I think the easiest thing to do, house rule wise, is say Surprised combatants get Disadvantage on Initiative rolls. You could still get the results described above but, less often. I don't like the Auto 20 for the ambusher idea because, you can still screw up or misjudge how skilled your target is.
I think the easiest thing to do, house rule wise, is say Surprised combatants get Disadvantage on Initiative rolls. You could still get the results described above but, less often. I don't like the Auto 20 for the ambusher idea because, you can still screw up or misjudge how skilled your target is.
I mean, that's a perfectly valid response, I never considered giving one side advantage or disadvantage. Props to the creative proposal, I feel that would give Ambushes the proper advantage without making the targets of the ambush completely helpless.
The thing is that you have to be careful about this, because there are some (sub-)classes that get really nasty on surprise situations, assassins and gloomstalkers for example. Reinforcing ambush would really make their day.
I'm not saying that the Surprise = Disadvantage is a bad idea, but I think such characters usually have initiative bonuses, and get more by taking a feat which will give them the equivalent to advantage, for example.
Thinking about it, there have been lots of discussion about this in another thread, but our DMs (including me) allow people to ready actions before the start of combat. I think this is why we have not encountered that situation yet. And we did allow this because that is the only way to properly and fairly realistically prepare an ambush. The way we do this is that the group agrees that there should be a point man starting the ambush, and they all ready actions to attack/cast spells/whatever when the point man attacks. And the point man readies something like "If he reacts to my presence, I attack". Note that the type of attack might not be optimal because he might still be at range, for example.
Then we roll initiative. If group members go first, they can either do whatever they want or re-ready the action, for example if there is a sequence, or debuffs need to go first or whatever, so that's fine.
Then either the point man goes first in initiative and there is no problem, he goes first and the readied actions come off in the order decided by the point man (Xanathar Rule, which is logical here as it could be assumed that it is pre-organised or that he orders the strikes in order).
And if the point man does not go first, he will still have his readied attack when the target reacts to his presence, and therefore before the end of the turn of the victim (I think that this is why I was confused before) so it does not have a reaction anyway. And the nice thing is that having a readied action is not as good as having a full turn of actions, so the ambusher is not too penalised by having missed his initiative, but the victim who rolled higher still gets some benefit from his good initiative roll.
It's not abused too easily because it means that the other party members who want to participate in the ambush need to be reasonably good at stealth and need to see/hear/perceives the point man attacking as well.
See, that feels like a well-prepared ambush and is adequately represented in the mechanics of the situation.
In the current RAW iteration of the surprise mechanics, a Wizard gets to react to a sneak attack from 100' away... From a source he failed to perceive. I'm not saying Defenders shouldn't get to react once combat starts, but I can't wrap my head around the opening attack which passed its stealth check and landed the attack/beat the save... But because the Defender had a higher initiative roll, they get the opportunity to negate that first attack. The attack they didn't see coming from a source they didn't spot in a fight they weren't aware was happening.
I would understand if it were the second attack/spell in a surprise attack, because at that point you're aware that you're under attack, even if you are surprised.
See, that feels like a well-prepared ambush and is adequately represented in the mechanics of the situation.
Yes, we also feel comfortable with that way of working things. I've presented the full situation with an ambush, but it works as well for other situations although you have to be careful not to abuse them.
Typically, the abuse could be for guards patrolling, if they have an action prepared all the time, it's a bit too much, so we only allow it if a guard is on alert and for example beating the bushes to find an intruder there. That encourages would be ambusher to be careful and not put the guards on alert.
Same with adventurers moving down a hall stealthily but being "always prepared", it's a bit too easy.
In the current RAW iteration of the surprise mechanics, a Wizard gets to react to a sneak attack from 100' away... From a source he failed to perceive. I'm not saying Defenders shouldn't get to react once combat starts, but I can't wrap my head around the opening attack which passed its stealth check and landed the attack/beat the save... But because the Defender had a higher initiative roll, they get the opportunity to negate that first attack. The attack they didn't see coming from a source they didn't spot in a fight they weren't aware was happening.
I would understand if it were the second attack/spell in a surprise attack, because at that point you're aware that you're under attack, even if you are surprised.
Still, maybe I'm just moving the goalposts?
Maybe a bit, but honestly it has never been a problem to us doing ambushes that way, it encourages everyone to be careful and to set up their ambushes properly, that's all. Going beyond it will probably start to be really complicated, because ready actions are complicated themselves and there can always be disagreement about the way they work (and reactions as well, actually).
At first blush, I want to ask for something along the lines of official 'awareness vs action' priority to this sort of thing to help simplify the matter... Then I remember 'Stacks' in Magic the Gathering and I become both ill and triggered. :)
Ambushes are supposed to be devastating. A well executed ambush is supposed to be decisive and provide a formidable advantage to the ambushers. Ruling that combat starts and the defenders get their full range of abilities from the get-go because it's unfair for the attackers to have an advantage in combat is sorta missing the point of an ambush.
The only time this is a real issue tends to be when people take the Alert feat. Many players believe that Alert makes them immune to ambushes, because they cannot be surprised while conscious. I've even seen players argue that they should be able to shout a warning to their party when the party is ambushed because Alert means they see all ambushes coming. This is false. Alert prevents the "Surprised" condition, but it does not prevent you from being surprised. A character which is Alert can sense impending trouble enough to avoid being caught completely unguarded without having enough time to properly mount a counterattack in the first instant.
As for when combat starts and initiative is rolled? That's ambiguous in the rules and likely comes down to DM discretion. I'd likely rule that Initiative takes effect when two or more creatures/groups come into conflict and each side is aware of the conflict. Generally this means either each side has seen the other and is gearing up for aggression, or one character has launched an attack. That does mean that a character who snipes someone with a bow or other such completely unseen, undetected attack gets a Free Shot before initiative starts, and if that character is an Assassin, it means they get their auto-crit. Surprise: that's how assassination works. That's not the player cheesing the rules to try and game the system for free winning points; that's the player doing what their subclass is purpose-built to do.
Now, I'd also potentially rule that anyone who has taken damage from such a pre-emptive ambush attack has lost the Surprised condition; they are well aware they're being attacked and while they are still lowercase-s surprised, the initial shock of ambush is overtaken by adrenaline and fight-or-flight. But frankly, I could be swayed to rule otherwise and decree that someone who suffers such an attack is certainly aware of the danger, but is too shocked to act appropriately in their first round as per the Surprised condition. Again, this means the Assassin in particular is exceptionally lethal from ambush. Working as intended. Assassins are supposed to be exceptionally lethal from ambush, considering their class features all completely disappear once combat starts for real.
DMs who don't like that can forbid the subclass on the strength of it being too 'evil' for a heroic adventurer PC, or they can decide that initiative is rolled before fighting actually breaks out and thus their defending NPCs get all the benefits of being in combat and being able to defend themselves freely against ambushing attackers. But then that DM had best follow their own rules and let the players also have free rein to defend themselves against NPC ambushes; no "you all feel a sudden blinding pain, everything goes black, and then you wake up an unknown number of hours later in a dank, dimly-lit prison cell..." nonsense. If the PCs are unable to properly ambush NPCs, then NPCs cannot be allowed to ambush the PCs, either.
Combat begins when the sides reach sensory range of each other and have a chance to detect each other. That's when Initiative is rolled. That's when you make Surprise Checks.
So Round 1 started when the Monk got close enough to have a chance to detect the ambusher. It's not option 1,2, or 3.
So you feel that initiative starts at Chance of detection? That would imply that the DM asks the PCs to roll initiative the moment the party scout goes into stealth and checks ahead, regardless of when the actual combat starts. How would you feel Surprise and just being Hidden plays into this?
I feel like a lot of what you're saying makes sense, but giving ambushers that first free strike probably pushes things into being a little too strong for good gameplay due to Assassin/Gloomstalker. Does it make sense? Absolutely. But it comes at the price of potentially upsetting game balance to the point of being disruptive. Kinda like Summoner from Pathfinder. Great concept, terribly out of control execution. Totally fun to play, but not so much fun to play alongside.
Still, the question really remains... When does the combat actually start? Here, this is straight out of the rules...
"Surprise A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other."
It seems to be up to the DM's discretion. Because the first situation might be that everyone rolls initiative and it progresses as stated by the surprise rules. Whereas the second situation is basically saying that the party was caught so completely unaware that the fight did not start until after someone got engulfed.
So... Is it really as simple as that? DM makes the calll?
So... We know how Surprise Works. For those of you that don't, it basically says if you're caught unawares, you skip your first round and you can't use reactions until after your initiative in the first round passes, even though you can't take a move/standard/bonus action regardless of your initiative.
Combat Begins...
-Ambushers and Defenders roll Initiative -Round 1 Begins -Ambushers get their full turns and actions -Defenders effectively skip this turn, however, their 'Surprise' fades once their turn passes despite them not being able to act, but now they have access to Reactions -Round 1 Ends, everything is back to normal combat starting with Round 2
Where did Round 1 Begin?
To me, the "start of first round" represents the moment that the characters first try to do something against their enemies. The rogue starting to shoot an arrow or jumping out or the fighter throwing a spear or whatever.
The initiative order determines how fast they actually act. Like, if I start the fight by throwing a punch at someone, just because I meant to throw the first punch doesn't mean that I'll be successful at that - the other guy might be quicker on the draw than me.
Surprise is on top of that - if you've surprised someone, you're guaranteed to be able to act before them. The fastest thing they could possibly do is react to your attack, but they can't actually take an action.
1 - Did it begin with the INTENTION of combat?
I'd go with no - narratively, what starts combat is someone trying to do something.
If so, why? Let's say I'm a Rogue sneak attacking an unaware Monk. If I start combat by intending to attack, but realize that I've lost the initiative roll, why wouldn't I simply not attack and just wait for a round where I've won the initiative? Does the Monk magically become aware that he's under attacks simply because I lost initiative? EDIT: This is Meta knowledge either way because the Defender gets to react to something that his perception did not notice, or the Ambusher gets to cycle rounds until they get what they want anyway. Either way, it comes off as a poor way to mechanically represent a Surprise Attack.
Agreed, this is weird and makes little sense. Once you've started to attack, you've started the combat; you don't get to then see "nope, not attacking, let's try that again, oh and I'm still hidden because I didn't do anything". Any roll (in this case, initiative) should represent something happening with consequences. If you weren't doing anything yet and chose to just stay hidden, there shouldn't have been a roll!
2 - Did it begin after the Sniper Rogue looses her arrow and lands her attack? Does that mean the round starts after the attack lands and I get a free opener so long as my ambush went completely unnoticed? This is mechanically very powerful, especially for something like the Assassin, because it gives them a consistent chance at getting their crits off so long as they were successful in setting up their ambush.
I'd say, the combat starts when the rogue starts their attack motion (drawing the arrow, shooting it, etc.) Whether they are fast at this or whether the enemy is faster is represented by their initiative. ...but if they're surprised you DO get a free opener! That's what the Surprised condition represents - if they're surprised, there's no possible way for them to take an action before you.
3 - Did it begin after the arrow is loosed but before the attack lands? If so, why would the Monk even get a reaction? If he hasn't noticed the Rogue in the first place, why does he get to notice an arrow if he failed his perception already? What if the arrow was invisible and silent? What if a firearm was used? What if I'm casting a spell from invisibility? What justifies the victim of an ambush (Surprise Immunity notwithstanding, of course) deserving an initiative in the first place? Or at the very least, why is he getting reactions when the attack that triggers combat hasn't even gone off as of yet? Why does his Surprise fade when the Ambush hasn't even begun in the first place?
Yeah, this is the closest to the way I think of it - though I'd say it's not "when the arrow is loosed", but "when the rogue starts the firing motion/action".
Why does the Monk get a reaction - because the rogue Doing Stuff gives the Monk a chance to react to it. They didn't see the ambush before, which is why they're surprised, but once the ambush starts being sprung, they might be fast enough at reacting to it to do something.
Why does he get to notice the arrow if he failed his perception already - because now there's a new thing to perceive, because more things are happening.
What if the arrow is invisible and silent, or casting a subtle spell with no effects, or etc etc etc - DM can override things if they think that the rogue for whatever reason is being so stealthy that even springing the ambush wouldn't be noticed. D&D typically assumes that the act of springing the ambush is obviously noticeable (such as being shot at or attacked), and the stealth is in getting in a position to be able to spring one.
Why does his surprise fade - because he's reacted to something going on in the environment and is now alert! Remember that the rogue STILL gets to act before the Monk, because the monk can't take an action because they were surprised.
My problem with #1 - This gives Meta power to one side or the other, so I HATE IT. Apologies for the lack of composure, but this either means the Victim of an Ambush has foreknowledge of the attack simply by its mechanical nature, OR the Ambusher simply gets to ignore initiative until its in their favor. Either way, this is... a terrible ruling that encourages Meta play. It is frictional at its very core and doesn't feel appropriate regardless of who benefits from it. At the risk of seeming petulant, I am going to go on the record saying I will flip this table if this is the official ruling!
My problem with #2 - While it makes the most sense, it greatly empowers ambushers, giving them, essentially, a free starter action. Not the entire ambushing group, naturally, but at least one Ambusher gets to kick off the fight with an action. Granted, that may be appropriate because... Well, they got the drop on you, but something like an Assassin Rogue can pretty much all but decide a fight before it starts. Then again, that may be the entire point behind being an assassin. If I were playing any sort of stealth character, I would want this. If I were playing any sort of non-stealth reliant character, I would hate this.
My problem with #3 - ... In theory, it might sound reasonable, but in practice, it gives unreasonable defense against setting up ambushes in the first place.
How does it give unreasonable defense against setting up ambushes? The ambusher always gets to act first, which is an advantage already, and has an even shot at being able to act *twice* before the other guy does.
Example: Let's say you've built a sniper fighter. And you've stacked stealth to truly ridiculous levels. You want to get the drop on a Monk from hiding using, I dunno, some ammunition that inflicts a debilitating status. You roll a 20 on your Stealth and he rolls a 1 on his Perception or you just take his passive perception. Not only will he not see you, the discrepancy is SO HIGH that you can attack and still not be noticed.
OK, that last part is kinda homebrew/weird - there's usually no way to attack without being noticed... once you attack someone, they know, don't they? But yes, that DM you can say that they attack without being noticed and override the rules - if it makes sense. DM can definitely make rulings like that, so let's say this one makes sense and move on.
However your entire attack is ruined. Why? Because you fired your weapon and initiative was rolled. The surprised Monk rolls a 15 on his initiative and you roll a 5. He doesn't get to act, but now he gets to deflect your attack. He rolls 9 on the deflect and not only does he block the attack entirely, but based on this interpretation, he can't Ki-throw the arrow back at you BECAUSE HE CAN'T SEE YOU, but he somehow saw the arrow in its flight and deflected it despite being caught entirely unawares. Note, this would be perfectly reasonable for a Surprise-Immune Character.
Yeah, that seems totally in character for a Monk! I'm imagining a guy in robes walking down a road, and suddenly hearing the whizzing sound of an arrow and snatching it out of the air just before it hits his face. That sounds pretty awesome and cinematic! Could make a good scene. Remember that the monk is also playing a character class here, and also gets to have their moments of awesome.
Another Example: Sorcerer surprises the Wizard Gal by sneaking up on her while she's eating in her room, casting Fireball or Dominate Person from invisibility. Sorcerer goes to throw spell at Wizard. Rolls a 15. Wizard gal Nat 20's her initiative roll. Wizard does the only thing she can do... She casts Counterspell as a Reaction because the Sorcerer took a hostile action and became visible. Sorcerer now knows to not bother with setting up for Ambush because an initiative roll can render the entire point moot.
Why would Sorcerer not bother setting up an ambush here? Look, getting to act first is still and advantage! It's better to get surprise and have an action to cast your spell first, rather than NOT surprise them, have them win initiative, and have them be able to attack you first.
...though, the ruling here is ambiguous because Counterspell requires you to take a reaction "when you see a creature within 60 ft of you casting a spell". Though the invisibility drops when the sorcerer starts casting the spell, they could potentially hide in a more mundane manner so that the Wizard can't see them even during the 6 seconds of casting, and therefore can't cast counterspell. E.g. just stand so that there's a pillar between Sorc and Wiz and have Fireball centered on a space 5ft away from Wizard, so Wiz can't see the casting and can't counterspell even if they react fast enough to look up and look around when they glimpse or hear something happening.
Yet A Third Example: A Divination Wizard with Temporal Shunt can now tell a Rogue to go Sneak Attack himself consistently because A) The Rogue crits his Stealth AND initiative, but the Divination Wizard says, "Actually, I rolled a 16 and Portent says you rolled a 4 on initiative, because these dice say so.
Note - if the rogue has already rolled his initiative, critted it as you say, DivWiz can't replace it - the Portent rules say "You must choose to do so [replace the roll] before the roll,". And they wouldn't be able to replace both their and your initiative, I think - DivWiz rules say "you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn."
And I'm now casting Temporal Shunt as a Reaction to your attack and you we'll see you in another Round where I get to now respond and can set up a reaction to your reappearance with something like... Oh, I dunno, Fast Friends or something else that targets your weaksauce Wisdom save, which I will then Portent so that you fail that roll as well!" (Note: I totally support a Divination Wizard being allowed to do this regardless of the ruling because... Well, they can see the future. :D)
Yep, that works. Um, yeah, wizards that can see the future definitely have tricks up their sleeve. As makes sense.
Note that in this case, it's still better to have ambushed the wizard than NOT ambushed them! After all, without the Surprise, the order of actions would have been "1) Wizard gets a turn to target your weaksauce wisdom save. 2) Rogue tries to do something, and gets temporally shunted. 3) Wizard gets to prepare/ready a spell for your reappearnce." In this case the surprise saved you one turn of being pummeled.
...that's how I understand RAW, at least. I definitely think that the Surprise rules are kind of meh, especially when there's groups of characters involved on both sides. So when I've played I definitely tend to houserule this away a bit and just think about what actions "make sense" to be able to do. If the PCs have set up an ambush that's so good that it should give more advantages than that, I'd probably represent that in-game by either giving the enemies disadvantage on their initiative, or having them spend their first action having to Search for their attackers, or whatever makes sense. But RAW is still kinda decent at representing "Ambushers always get to act first, and if they're also fast they might get to act twice".
To me, at least, any interpretation other than "Initiative starts when two opposed entities are each aware of the other, or at least a threat" denies the ambusher any advantage from successfully ambushing their target, typically in an attempt to deny Assassins the use of their Assassinate feature. Gloom Stalkers get their first-turn nova no matter their position in the turn order, so any attempt to insist that defenders get ample time to react to attackers regardless of surprise strikes me as mostly an attempt to ensure Assassins never work and that all fights are essentially 'even' - that is, no one derives benefit from having struck first.
Allowing Surprise to fade before the individual who achieved surprise can make use of it seems miserly to me. As Card stated, one poor initiative roll essentially destroys your entire ambush, denying you any opportunity to capitalize on your opening move. I know that as a player I'd be pretty disappointed if I successfully maneuvered into a perfect position to ambush a high-value target and gain an edge in a difficult combat only to roll a 2 for Initiative and completely lose that edge.
It's why I tend to stick with the idea that successful Stealth forestalls initiative. One does not get to magically deploy their defenses against a threat they didn't realize existed until the arrow impacted their knee - only once a potential party is aware that hostilities are commencing do they get an initiative roll. Elsewise what's the point of even bothering with a stealthy skirmisher, and why let the Assassin subclass of the rogue even exist?
If combat begins and any given critter goes on high alert the moment anything with hostile intent gets within eyeshot range of it:
1.) Why does anyone bother with Stealth? A creature is alerted the instant anything is within eyeshot distance of it, which could be several hundred feet under normal circumstances, out to miles if one has a height advantage and search gear. After one singular six-second round, the critter is no longer Surprised-the-condition and becomes completely immune to ambush. Does that make the remotest amount of sense?
2.) How does anyone function in a game where the rules as described essentially require everyone to live in a constant state of always-on initiative, given that any creature can decide to become hostile to another for any reason, and thus any time any two creatures "come into detection range" of each other, they must by your read of RAW roll initiative and act strictly within initiative order?
The fact that surprise can only occur during the first round is the reason for not starting fights because of detection range. A fight starts only if someone starts it, it's very simple.
This isn't actually accurate; a creature can only be surprised on its first round of combat, but this isn't limited to the first round of combat overall.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
For example, it's possible to be in combat and that combat spill over into an area where there are more unaware hostiles. Those hostiles could potentially be surprised on their first round of combat. This isn't a common scenario, but is one that can occur both narratively and mechanically.
Combat begins when the sides reach sensory range of each other and have a chance to detect each other. That's when Initiative is rolled. That's when you make Surprise Checks.
So Round 1 started when the Monk got close enough to have a chance to detect the ambusher. It's not option 1,2, or 3.
For me that is not the case, because you don't even know if, detecting the other first, one group will not simply decide to speak or to slink away or remain hidden.
It's very simple for me, combat starts when someone starts it, it's as simple as that. As soon as someone declares that he will use a combat action, combat starts, but remember, it's not because he declared it first that he gets to act firts.
See, in a stand off, that last sentence makes sense... But in an ambush, that causes a disconnect for me.
I might be convinced to concede that a Monk might have the supernatural sensory perception to deflect an arrow shot at him from stealth because of the rule of cool. He's just so freakin' cool and skilled and on point that he's slapping arrows he hasn't even met yet. Deflect Arrows doesn't even state that the Monk has to see the attack or its source, so sure, I could be talked into accepting that. I would not, however, be able to wrap my head around, say... A wizard casting a spell in reaction to an attack he didn't see coming, such as Shield or Temporal Shunt or Counter Spell in response to an arrow, a sneak attack, or a spell cast from Invisibility.
I'm not gearing up to try to screw over casters, this is just an example.
Another would be Defensive Duelist, where if someone passes a stealth check against your perception and stabs you in the back, a good initiative roll means you might be able to cause it to miss even though the action that triggered combat/initiative hasn't taken place yet.
You've reacted to an attack that you weren't aware was happening. If this was the second attack in an ambush, that makes sense, you should have the ability to react with your initiative now that you're aware you under attack, but the first attack... Sure, immunity to Surprise via Alert, Animal Instincts, etc would give you that opportunity, but barring that? I'm struggling to justify a target without Surprise Immunity not being Surprised by an attack just because they won the initiative roll after failing to perceive the incoming threat. The entire point of Perception Vs Stealth is to give you that opportunity in the first place.
One might even argue that the victim of the opening attack of an ambush gets a new perception roll now that the ambush is officially kicked off. But initiative should determine action order, not provide you defensive capabilities to attacks you failed to notice in time.
Yeah, this is the closest to the way I think of it - though I'd say it's not "when the arrow is loosed", but "when the rogue starts the firing motion/action".
Why does the Monk get a reaction - because the rogue Doing Stuff gives the Monk a chance to react to it. They didn't see the ambush before, which is why they're surprised, but once the ambush starts being sprung, they might be fast enough at reacting to it to do something.
Why does he get to notice the arrow if he failed his perception already - because now there's a new thing to perceive, because more things are happening.
What if the arrow is invisible and silent, or casting a subtle spell with no effects, or etc etc etc - DM can override things if they think that the rogue for whatever reason is being so stealthy that even springing the ambush wouldn't be noticed. D&D typically assumes that the act of springing the ambush is obviously noticeable (such as being shot at or attacked), and the stealth is in getting in a position to be able to spring one.
Why does his surprise fade - because he's reacted to something going on in the environment and is now alert! Remember that the rogue STILL gets to act before the Monk, because the monk can't take an action because they were surprised.
"
Okay, so... The victim of an ambush is unaware of an attack, but has a chance to see the attack coming? Sure, I can buy that. Give him another perception roll, then, hell give the entire party being ambushed a chance against that opening attack, someone else might be able to save the victim with their own reaction. They're all surprised either way, but now they have a legitimate chance to see what's coming and do something about it. But the ambusher doesn't lose the Hidden status until AFTER their attack lands/misses, not before, so why should your initiative give you that opportunity to react. Granted, after that first attack lands, you are officially aware and reactions should be available to those that roll high enough on initiative, but until you actually ARE aware? I find it dubious at best.
Initiative determines priority of actions. It's a hard sell to say it also provides defensive capability to respond to combat actions that you have no awareness of. That's what Alert, Aninmal Instincts, and other forms of Surprise Immunity are for. There is a difference between being trashed on too much liquor as you take a leak in the bushes and being blindsided by a rogue in the middle of a messy fight. But RAW, you'll essentially have the opportunity to treat them the same.
EDIT: I should clarify, the reason I'm making this argument is to say that I feel as though combat starts once both sides are aware of a conflict in progress. That way the Surprise Rules as they stand make sense, not to change surprise rules.
In effect, I'm saying the opening attack of an ambush is where the combat starts, but initiative is rolled after it lands, with the intended victim still have a shot noticing his impending doom coming, but not because he just happened to have a high initiative, as a high initiative doesn't mean you magically become aware of danger that you failed to notice. Adventurers don't all come born with Spidey-Sense, unless they do, in which case that should be clearly stated by someone higher up. :)
So... We know how Surprise Works. For those of you that don't, it basically says if you're caught unawares, you skip your first round and you can't use reactions until after your initiative in the first round passes, even though you can't take a move/standard/bonus action regardless of your initiative.
Combat Begins...
-Ambushers and Defenders roll Initiative
-Round 1 Begins
-Ambushers get their full turns and actions
-Defenders effectively skip this turn, however, their 'Surprise' fades once their turn passes despite them not being able to act, but now they have access to Reactions
-Round 1 Ends, everything is back to normal combat starting with Round 2
Where did Round 1 Begin?
1 - Did it begin with the INTENTION of combat? If so, why? Let's say I'm a Rogue sneak attacking an unaware Monk. If I start combat by intending to attack, but realize that I've lost the initiative roll, why wouldn't I simply not attack and just wait for a round where I've won the initiative? Does the Monk magically become aware that he's under attacks simply because I lost initiative? EDIT: This is Meta knowledge either way because the Defender gets to react to something that his perception did not notice, or the Ambusher gets to cycle rounds until they get what they want anyway. Either way, it comes off as a poor way to mechanically represent a Surprise Attack.
2 - Did it begin after the Sniper Rogue looses her arrow and lands her attack? Does that mean the round starts after the attack lands and I get a free opener so long as my ambush went completely unnoticed? This is mechanically very powerful, especially for something like the Assassin, because it gives them a consistent chance at getting their crits off so long as they were successful in setting up their ambush.
3 - Did it begin after the arrow is loosed but before the attack lands? If so, why would the Monk even get a reaction? If he hasn't noticed the Rogue in the first place, why does he get to notice an arrow if he failed his perception already? What if the arrow was invisible and silent? What if a firearm was used? What if I'm casting a spell from invisibility? What justifies the victim of an ambush (Surprise Immunity notwithstanding, of course) deserving an initiative in the first place? Or at the very least, why is he getting reactions when the attack that triggers combat hasn't even gone off as of yet? Why does his Surprise fade when the Ambush hasn't even begun in the first place?
My problem with #1 - This gives Meta power to one side or the other, so I HATE IT. Apologies for the lack of composure, but this either means the Victim of an Ambush has foreknowledge of the attack simply by its mechanical nature, OR the Ambusher simply gets to ignore initiative until its in their favor. Either way, this is... a terrible ruling that encourages Meta play. It is frictional at its very core and doesn't feel appropriate regardless of who benefits from it. At the risk of seeming petulant, I am going to go on the record saying I will flip this table if this is the official ruling!
My problem with #2 - While it makes the most sense, it greatly empowers ambushers, giving them, essentially, a free starter action. Not the entire ambushing group, naturally, but at least one Ambusher gets to kick off the fight with an action. Granted, that may be appropriate because... Well, they got the drop on you, but something like an Assassin Rogue can pretty much all but decide a fight before it starts. Then again, that may be the entire point behind being an assassin. If I were playing any sort of stealth character, I would want this. If I were playing any sort of non-stealth reliant character, I would hate this.
My problem with #3 - ... In theory, it might sound reasonable, but in practice, it gives unreasonable defense against setting up ambushes in the first place.
Example: Let's say you've built a sniper fighter. And you've stacked stealth to truly ridiculous levels. You want to get the drop on a Monk from hiding using, I dunno, some ammunition that inflicts a debilitating status. You roll a 20 on your Stealth and he rolls a 1 on his Perception or you just take his passive perception. Not only will he not see you, the discrepancy is SO HIGH that you can attack and still not be noticed. However your entire attack is ruined. Why? Because you fired your weapon and initiative was rolled. The surprised Monk rolls a 15 on his initiative and you roll a 5. He doesn't get to act, but now he gets to deflect your attack. He rolls 9 on the deflect and not only does he block the attack entirely, but based on this interpretation, he can't Ki-throw the arrow back at you BECAUSE HE CAN'T SEE YOU, but he somehow saw the arrow in its flight and deflected it despite being caught entirely unawares. Note, this would be perfectly reasonable for a Surprise-Immune Character.
Another Example: Sorcerer surprises the Wizard Gal by sneaking up on her while she's eating in her room, casting Fireball or Dominate Person from invisibility. Sorcerer goes to throw spell at Wizard. Rolls a 15. Wizard gal Nat 20's her initiative roll. Wizard does the only thing she can do... She casts Counterspell as a Reaction because the Sorcerer took a hostile action and became visible. Sorcerer now knows to not bother with setting up for Ambush because an initiative roll can render the entire point moot.
Yet A Third Example: A Divination Wizard with Temporal Shunt can now tell a Rogue to go Sneak Attack himself consistently because A) The Rogue crits his Stealth AND initiative, but the Divination Wizard says, "Actually, I rolled a 16 and Portent says you rolled a 4 on initiative, because these dice say so. And I'm now casting Temporal Shunt as a Reaction to your attack and you we'll see you in another Round where I get to now respond and can set up a reaction to your reappearance with something like... Oh, I dunno, Fast Friends or something else that targets your weaksauce Wisdom save, which I will then Portent so that you fail that roll as well!" (Note: I totally support a Divination Wizard being allowed to do this regardless of the ruling because... Well, they can see the future. :D)
So... Which is it?
It's (1). You declaring you're going to make an attack starts initiative. If they beat you on Initiative then they have quicker reflexes - and could use a reaction when it comes to your turn - but they were surprised and didn't get to have their own turn first round.
If you think that that is 'meta knowledge' then I have to question what AC you think the enemy would have when you try to sneak attack them? If they don't know you're there - why can they add their Dexterity modifier to their AC (ignoring heavy armour here) and attempt to dodge your attack? They do get to add Dexterity though - so is that meta knowledge too?
It's certainly not (2) because the ambusher would get to go twice before the enemy does - and considering the average combat lasts 3-4 rounds - that is ridiculous.
And depending on how you deal with (3) it would either end up being identical in outcome to either (1) or (2).
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I just wanted to reply to this bit - the OP has it right here. If someone is surprised they can take a reaction once their surprised turn is over - not after the round is over.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The issue is that in the 1st Round of being Surprised, you can take your reaction rolls after the end of your first turn. So if the Monk rolls high on initiative, he can indeed deflect an arrow from a source that he didn't notice so long as he wins initiative. And mechanically, it also indicates that the Sorcerer does indeed get counterspelled.
To be fair, this is why Flat-Footed was a status in previous editions because there are situations where you aren't able to dodge/react, such as being unaware, tied up, or grappled. But that's another matter altogether.
But yes, it still feels like Meta play. If I'm on the receiving end of an Ambush and I win initiative, I'm then allowed to use 1 Reaction to offset the disadvantage of being ambushed despite the fact that I was completely caught off guard and have no foreknowledge of being threatened. It means that a high-initiative roll. If I'm the attacker, I can apply that knowledge to just skipping turns until I win the initiative roll.
And I agreed, (2) is too powerful in a 1v1 situation, which admittedly doesn't come up often, but it still comes up. I feel the impact isn't AS heavy in a Group Vs Group situation, but it still gives more weight to an ambush, probably more than is warranted, especially for characters like the Assassin.
(3) ... Does essentially boil down to being 1 or 2 depending on how it's ruled except for the fact that it prevents the doubling-up on attacks. (3) Essentially either gives first attacker a 20 on initiative, or it gives a substantial layer of protection to the Defender against attacks that they couldn't possibly be aware of.
And I want to clarify, I don't lean one way or another on the subject. Yeah, it'd be nice to benefit from a free action as an ambusher, but that sword cuts both ways, too. And while it would suck to ambush a character that wins initiative, it would also benefit me when I'm the Wizard Gal trying to enjoy my meal in peace.
Once Initiative has been rolled that's it - you're in Initiative. You don't get to wait and see and try again to get a new Initiative to be quicker than the enemy. That is meta knowledge.
I simply put a high initiative roll of an enemy being ambushed and being able to use their reaction to somehow lessen the threat of the ambush as having high reflexes. They saw you out of the corner of their eye as you revealed yourself to attack at the last moment. Something like that.
At the end of the day - as Lyxen said - this is a simulation - it can't get everything perfect.
Edit:
You also have to take into account that usually an ambush involves the entire party - and the enemy may not be wise to you - but they would be to that clanky armoured Paladin you travel with.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Right? It's pretty frustrating, not because I want to have OP ambushes, but because it takes the nature of an Ambush and turns it on its head. Defenders get to defend against attacks and spells that they have no foreknowledge of. This is something I would be 100% okay with if the defender was immune to surprise, but for something like an Evoker Wizard, this gives them the ability to cast Shield at an attack that they never knew was coming. And that feels just... off base, I guess?
And if you give that sort of meta-advantage to a defender, would you not also give the attacker the meta-advantage of being able to say, "Nah, he looks like he's on his guard, I'll wait until he looks more relaxed..." and then pass turn until you win initiative?
That's reasonable for a party. But if you were running a stealthy party for purposes of theme (Scouting Party, Thieves' Guild, Holy Assassin Squad), the entire idea of getting the jump on the enemy now comes into question... Or if you found a target of opportunity as the Rogue, the idea of being noticed in spite of beating their perception partially defeats the purpose of being stealthy in the first place.
And I know, I know, it's a simulation and no system is perfect. An imperfect representation feels more like... Poison not killing you because you have so much HP that despite never having treated it, you barely notice the damage even though you failed your saves. But this feels like less like an imperfect representation of combat and more like an oversight that wasn't fully explored.
A better solution to the approach would have been "The Instigating Attack Has An Initiative Roll of 20" so that ambushers do not get that extra action, but defenders don't get to react to actions that they have absolutely no knowledge of, such as getting shot with a Longbow from 100" away from a source that has double the stealth as the target's passive perception.
Or that the first turn in which an ambusher attacks considers all targets as surprised until that turn ends, in which all initiatives higher than the attacker are now aware and can react appropriately.
Granted, that's purely a homebrew response and I don't expect that to mean anything to anyone but the current rules iteration is just so gratingly falling short of expectations.
EDIT: It also reduces the importance of having surprise immunity in the first place. Not to imply that having immunity wouldn't still be worth something, but if you're weighing options, knowing that your high initiative (or even advantage on initiative) provides noteworthy protection from the worst results of being surprised... Well, I think it would influence the decision-making process.
I think the easiest thing to do, house rule wise, is say Surprised combatants get Disadvantage on Initiative rolls. You could still get the results described above but, less often. I don't like the Auto 20 for the ambusher idea because, you can still screw up or misjudge how skilled your target is.
I mean, that's a perfectly valid response, I never considered giving one side advantage or disadvantage. Props to the creative proposal, I feel that would give Ambushes the proper advantage without making the targets of the ambush completely helpless.
See, that feels like a well-prepared ambush and is adequately represented in the mechanics of the situation.
In the current RAW iteration of the surprise mechanics, a Wizard gets to react to a sneak attack from 100' away... From a source he failed to perceive. I'm not saying Defenders shouldn't get to react once combat starts, but I can't wrap my head around the opening attack which passed its stealth check and landed the attack/beat the save... But because the Defender had a higher initiative roll, they get the opportunity to negate that first attack. The attack they didn't see coming from a source they didn't spot in a fight they weren't aware was happening.
I would understand if it were the second attack/spell in a surprise attack, because at that point you're aware that you're under attack, even if you are surprised.
Still, maybe I'm just moving the goalposts?
At first blush, I want to ask for something along the lines of official 'awareness vs action' priority to this sort of thing to help simplify the matter... Then I remember 'Stacks' in Magic the Gathering and I become both ill and triggered. :)
Ambushes are supposed to be devastating. A well executed ambush is supposed to be decisive and provide a formidable advantage to the ambushers. Ruling that combat starts and the defenders get their full range of abilities from the get-go because it's unfair for the attackers to have an advantage in combat is sorta missing the point of an ambush.
The only time this is a real issue tends to be when people take the Alert feat. Many players believe that Alert makes them immune to ambushes, because they cannot be surprised while conscious. I've even seen players argue that they should be able to shout a warning to their party when the party is ambushed because Alert means they see all ambushes coming. This is false. Alert prevents the "Surprised" condition, but it does not prevent you from being surprised. A character which is Alert can sense impending trouble enough to avoid being caught completely unguarded without having enough time to properly mount a counterattack in the first instant.
As for when combat starts and initiative is rolled? That's ambiguous in the rules and likely comes down to DM discretion. I'd likely rule that Initiative takes effect when two or more creatures/groups come into conflict and each side is aware of the conflict. Generally this means either each side has seen the other and is gearing up for aggression, or one character has launched an attack. That does mean that a character who snipes someone with a bow or other such completely unseen, undetected attack gets a Free Shot before initiative starts, and if that character is an Assassin, it means they get their auto-crit. Surprise: that's how assassination works. That's not the player cheesing the rules to try and game the system for free winning points; that's the player doing what their subclass is purpose-built to do.
Now, I'd also potentially rule that anyone who has taken damage from such a pre-emptive ambush attack has lost the Surprised condition; they are well aware they're being attacked and while they are still lowercase-s surprised, the initial shock of ambush is overtaken by adrenaline and fight-or-flight. But frankly, I could be swayed to rule otherwise and decree that someone who suffers such an attack is certainly aware of the danger, but is too shocked to act appropriately in their first round as per the Surprised condition. Again, this means the Assassin in particular is exceptionally lethal from ambush. Working as intended. Assassins are supposed to be exceptionally lethal from ambush, considering their class features all completely disappear once combat starts for real.
DMs who don't like that can forbid the subclass on the strength of it being too 'evil' for a heroic adventurer PC, or they can decide that initiative is rolled before fighting actually breaks out and thus their defending NPCs get all the benefits of being in combat and being able to defend themselves freely against ambushing attackers. But then that DM had best follow their own rules and let the players also have free rein to defend themselves against NPC ambushes; no "you all feel a sudden blinding pain, everything goes black, and then you wake up an unknown number of hours later in a dank, dimly-lit prison cell..." nonsense. If the PCs are unable to properly ambush NPCs, then NPCs cannot be allowed to ambush the PCs, either.
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So you feel that initiative starts at Chance of detection? That would imply that the DM asks the PCs to roll initiative the moment the party scout goes into stealth and checks ahead, regardless of when the actual combat starts. How would you feel Surprise and just being Hidden plays into this?
@Yurei1453
I feel like a lot of what you're saying makes sense, but giving ambushers that first free strike probably pushes things into being a little too strong for good gameplay due to Assassin/Gloomstalker. Does it make sense? Absolutely. But it comes at the price of potentially upsetting game balance to the point of being disruptive. Kinda like Summoner from Pathfinder. Great concept, terribly out of control execution. Totally fun to play, but not so much fun to play alongside.
Still, the question really remains... When does the combat actually start? Here, this is straight out of the rules...
"Surprise
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other."
It seems to be up to the DM's discretion. Because the first situation might be that everyone rolls initiative and it progresses as stated by the surprise rules. Whereas the second situation is basically saying that the party was caught so completely unaware that the fight did not start until after someone got engulfed.
So... Is it really as simple as that? DM makes the calll?
To me, the "start of first round" represents the moment that the characters first try to do something against their enemies. The rogue starting to shoot an arrow or jumping out or the fighter throwing a spear or whatever.
The initiative order determines how fast they actually act. Like, if I start the fight by throwing a punch at someone, just because I meant to throw the first punch doesn't mean that I'll be successful at that - the other guy might be quicker on the draw than me.
Surprise is on top of that - if you've surprised someone, you're guaranteed to be able to act before them. The fastest thing they could possibly do is react to your attack, but they can't actually take an action.
I'd go with no - narratively, what starts combat is someone trying to do something.
Agreed, this is weird and makes little sense. Once you've started to attack, you've started the combat; you don't get to then see "nope, not attacking, let's try that again, oh and I'm still hidden because I didn't do anything". Any roll (in this case, initiative) should represent something happening with consequences. If you weren't doing anything yet and chose to just stay hidden, there shouldn't have been a roll!
I'd say, the combat starts when the rogue starts their attack motion (drawing the arrow, shooting it, etc.) Whether they are fast at this or whether the enemy is faster is represented by their initiative. ...but if they're surprised you DO get a free opener! That's what the Surprised condition represents - if they're surprised, there's no possible way for them to take an action before you.
Yeah, this is the closest to the way I think of it - though I'd say it's not "when the arrow is loosed", but "when the rogue starts the firing motion/action".
Why does the Monk get a reaction - because the rogue Doing Stuff gives the Monk a chance to react to it. They didn't see the ambush before, which is why they're surprised, but once the ambush starts being sprung, they might be fast enough at reacting to it to do something.
Why does he get to notice the arrow if he failed his perception already - because now there's a new thing to perceive, because more things are happening.
What if the arrow is invisible and silent, or casting a subtle spell with no effects, or etc etc etc - DM can override things if they think that the rogue for whatever reason is being so stealthy that even springing the ambush wouldn't be noticed. D&D typically assumes that the act of springing the ambush is obviously noticeable (such as being shot at or attacked), and the stealth is in getting in a position to be able to spring one.
Why does his surprise fade - because he's reacted to something going on in the environment and is now alert! Remember that the rogue STILL gets to act before the Monk, because the monk can't take an action because they were surprised.
How does it give unreasonable defense against setting up ambushes? The ambusher always gets to act first, which is an advantage already, and has an even shot at being able to act *twice* before the other guy does.
OK, that last part is kinda homebrew/weird - there's usually no way to attack without being noticed... once you attack someone, they know, don't they? But yes, that DM you can say that they attack without being noticed and override the rules - if it makes sense. DM can definitely make rulings like that, so let's say this one makes sense and move on.
Yeah, that seems totally in character for a Monk! I'm imagining a guy in robes walking down a road, and suddenly hearing the whizzing sound of an arrow and snatching it out of the air just before it hits his face. That sounds pretty awesome and cinematic! Could make a good scene. Remember that the monk is also playing a character class here, and also gets to have their moments of awesome.
Why would Sorcerer not bother setting up an ambush here? Look, getting to act first is still and advantage! It's better to get surprise and have an action to cast your spell first, rather than NOT surprise them, have them win initiative, and have them be able to attack you first.
...though, the ruling here is ambiguous because Counterspell requires you to take a reaction "when you see a creature within 60 ft of you casting a spell". Though the invisibility drops when the sorcerer starts casting the spell, they could potentially hide in a more mundane manner so that the Wizard can't see them even during the 6 seconds of casting, and therefore can't cast counterspell. E.g. just stand so that there's a pillar between Sorc and Wiz and have Fireball centered on a space 5ft away from Wizard, so Wiz can't see the casting and can't counterspell even if they react fast enough to look up and look around when they glimpse or hear something happening.
Note - if the rogue has already rolled his initiative, critted it as you say, DivWiz can't replace it - the Portent rules say "You must choose to do so [replace the roll] before the roll,". And they wouldn't be able to replace both their and your initiative, I think - DivWiz rules say "you can replace a roll in this way only once per turn."
Yep, that works. Um, yeah, wizards that can see the future definitely have tricks up their sleeve. As makes sense.
Note that in this case, it's still better to have ambushed the wizard than NOT ambushed them! After all, without the Surprise, the order of actions would have been "1) Wizard gets a turn to target your weaksauce wisdom save. 2) Rogue tries to do something, and gets temporally shunted. 3) Wizard gets to prepare/ready a spell for your reappearnce." In this case the surprise saved you one turn of being pummeled.
...that's how I understand RAW, at least. I definitely think that the Surprise rules are kind of meh, especially when there's groups of characters involved on both sides. So when I've played I definitely tend to houserule this away a bit and just think about what actions "make sense" to be able to do. If the PCs have set up an ambush that's so good that it should give more advantages than that, I'd probably represent that in-game by either giving the enemies disadvantage on their initiative, or having them spend their first action having to Search for their attackers, or whatever makes sense. But RAW is still kinda decent at representing "Ambushers always get to act first, and if they're also fast they might get to act twice".
To me, at least, any interpretation other than "Initiative starts when two opposed entities are each aware of the other, or at least a threat" denies the ambusher any advantage from successfully ambushing their target, typically in an attempt to deny Assassins the use of their Assassinate feature. Gloom Stalkers get their first-turn nova no matter their position in the turn order, so any attempt to insist that defenders get ample time to react to attackers regardless of surprise strikes me as mostly an attempt to ensure Assassins never work and that all fights are essentially 'even' - that is, no one derives benefit from having struck first.
Allowing Surprise to fade before the individual who achieved surprise can make use of it seems miserly to me. As Card stated, one poor initiative roll essentially destroys your entire ambush, denying you any opportunity to capitalize on your opening move. I know that as a player I'd be pretty disappointed if I successfully maneuvered into a perfect position to ambush a high-value target and gain an edge in a difficult combat only to roll a 2 for Initiative and completely lose that edge.
It's why I tend to stick with the idea that successful Stealth forestalls initiative. One does not get to magically deploy their defenses against a threat they didn't realize existed until the arrow impacted their knee - only once a potential party is aware that hostilities are commencing do they get an initiative roll. Elsewise what's the point of even bothering with a stealthy skirmisher, and why let the Assassin subclass of the rogue even exist?
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Break that down for a moment, Geann.
If combat begins and any given critter goes on high alert the moment anything with hostile intent gets within eyeshot range of it:
1.) Why does anyone bother with Stealth? A creature is alerted the instant anything is within eyeshot distance of it, which could be several hundred feet under normal circumstances, out to miles if one has a height advantage and search gear. After one singular six-second round, the critter is no longer Surprised-the-condition and becomes completely immune to ambush. Does that make the remotest amount of sense?
2.) How does anyone function in a game where the rules as described essentially require everyone to live in a constant state of always-on initiative, given that any creature can decide to become hostile to another for any reason, and thus any time any two creatures "come into detection range" of each other, they must by your read of RAW roll initiative and act strictly within initiative order?
It just doesn't hold up.
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This isn't actually accurate; a creature can only be surprised on its first round of combat, but this isn't limited to the first round of combat overall.
For example, it's possible to be in combat and that combat spill over into an area where there are more unaware hostiles. Those hostiles could potentially be surprised on their first round of combat. This isn't a common scenario, but is one that can occur both narratively and mechanically.
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See, in a stand off, that last sentence makes sense... But in an ambush, that causes a disconnect for me.
I might be convinced to concede that a Monk might have the supernatural sensory perception to deflect an arrow shot at him from stealth because of the rule of cool. He's just so freakin' cool and skilled and on point that he's slapping arrows he hasn't even met yet. Deflect Arrows doesn't even state that the Monk has to see the attack or its source, so sure, I could be talked into accepting that. I would not, however, be able to wrap my head around, say... A wizard casting a spell in reaction to an attack he didn't see coming, such as Shield or Temporal Shunt or Counter Spell in response to an arrow, a sneak attack, or a spell cast from Invisibility.
I'm not gearing up to try to screw over casters, this is just an example.
Another would be Defensive Duelist, where if someone passes a stealth check against your perception and stabs you in the back, a good initiative roll means you might be able to cause it to miss even though the action that triggered combat/initiative hasn't taken place yet.
You've reacted to an attack that you weren't aware was happening. If this was the second attack in an ambush, that makes sense, you should have the ability to react with your initiative now that you're aware you under attack, but the first attack... Sure, immunity to Surprise via Alert, Animal Instincts, etc would give you that opportunity, but barring that? I'm struggling to justify a target without Surprise Immunity not being Surprised by an attack just because they won the initiative roll after failing to perceive the incoming threat. The entire point of Perception Vs Stealth is to give you that opportunity in the first place.
One might even argue that the victim of the opening attack of an ambush gets a new perception roll now that the ambush is officially kicked off. But initiative should determine action order, not provide you defensive capabilities to attacks you failed to notice in time.
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Yeah, this is the closest to the way I think of it - though I'd say it's not "when the arrow is loosed", but "when the rogue starts the firing motion/action".
Why does the Monk get a reaction - because the rogue Doing Stuff gives the Monk a chance to react to it. They didn't see the ambush before, which is why they're surprised, but once the ambush starts being sprung, they might be fast enough at reacting to it to do something.
Why does he get to notice the arrow if he failed his perception already - because now there's a new thing to perceive, because more things are happening.
What if the arrow is invisible and silent, or casting a subtle spell with no effects, or etc etc etc - DM can override things if they think that the rogue for whatever reason is being so stealthy that even springing the ambush wouldn't be noticed. D&D typically assumes that the act of springing the ambush is obviously noticeable (such as being shot at or attacked), and the stealth is in getting in a position to be able to spring one.
Why does his surprise fade - because he's reacted to something going on in the environment and is now alert! Remember that the rogue STILL gets to act before the Monk, because the monk can't take an action because they were surprised.
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Okay, so... The victim of an ambush is unaware of an attack, but has a chance to see the attack coming? Sure, I can buy that. Give him another perception roll, then, hell give the entire party being ambushed a chance against that opening attack, someone else might be able to save the victim with their own reaction. They're all surprised either way, but now they have a legitimate chance to see what's coming and do something about it. But the ambusher doesn't lose the Hidden status until AFTER their attack lands/misses, not before, so why should your initiative give you that opportunity to react. Granted, after that first attack lands, you are officially aware and reactions should be available to those that roll high enough on initiative, but until you actually ARE aware? I find it dubious at best.
Initiative determines priority of actions. It's a hard sell to say it also provides defensive capability to respond to combat actions that you have no awareness of. That's what Alert, Aninmal Instincts, and other forms of Surprise Immunity are for. There is a difference between being trashed on too much liquor as you take a leak in the bushes and being blindsided by a rogue in the middle of a messy fight. But RAW, you'll essentially have the opportunity to treat them the same.
EDIT: I should clarify, the reason I'm making this argument is to say that I feel as though combat starts once both sides are aware of a conflict in progress. That way the Surprise Rules as they stand make sense, not to change surprise rules.
In effect, I'm saying the opening attack of an ambush is where the combat starts, but initiative is rolled after it lands, with the intended victim still have a shot noticing his impending doom coming, but not because he just happened to have a high initiative, as a high initiative doesn't mean you magically become aware of danger that you failed to notice. Adventurers don't all come born with Spidey-Sense, unless they do, in which case that should be clearly stated by someone higher up. :)