I don't think that an entire party of say 6 people, has all 6 of them with +1 main weapons and +1 armor by level 5 at most tables. That's twelve +1 items in a party of 6, by level 5. That's more than 2 per level, meaning that if you spread them out, by level 3, the entire party has at least a +1 in something. Again, I think this is rather early.
Not everyone needs one of course (wizards and the like don't; monks' hands become their own magic weapons, etc). But speaking of monks, notice that their hands become magic weapons at level 6, which is not by level 5. So if you, for example, as a DM, gave every single player in the game a magic weapon by level 5 and the monk is using open hand, wouldn't it be unfair to the monk to have that person be the ONLY member of the party with no +1 attack at level 5?
Again, I don't think that having the +1 weapons start to be given out by level 5 is a problem... they should begin by then but not end by then, and for everyone to have +1 weapons and +1 armor by the time they hit level 5, that is early. You would find the level 5 encounters to be much too easy.
I am sure I am a bit unusual, but the biggest reason I want a magic weapon early is just because some monsters may only be damaged by magical weapons. A +1 of my chosen primary weapon is good enough for that, so a +1 longsword, +1 Rapier or +1 mace should do the trick. Having a +1 backup weapon would be nice, but I don't get crazy trying to acquire a magical backup weapon. A +1 dagger is also appreciated for the same reasons.
As a low level character, I kinda love to have either a Bag of Holding or the Backpack that does the same thing. The BoH is great when I'm walking around town, but doesn't carry as much.
I really like have 2 healing potions early, just in case.
A +1 armor in my preferred type is also very appealing, but is not as important as a +1 weapon at first. As a Rogue or Bard, getting Elven Chain is really great.
Scrolls and potions are good items to give a party at first. They Are Magic Items, but they are only single use magic items. If you give them something powerful, well it is only a single use item.
After getting a +1 weapon and a +1 armor, two healing potions and a Bag of Holding, I figure getting better equipment should almost be a quest in itself. You should mention the rarity of better equipment and use that to justify the struggle necessary to acquire those items.
For me, never, but never, have a magic item shop where PCs can just earn enough coin to buy whatever suits them. This will also make them feel they can sell the sub-optimal stuff. I think that leads down a bad path.
Well, all those things is a huge hoard of treasure worthy of a great adventure in and of itself. Especially if the rest of a 3-5 member group also has the same amount. Over-coming immunities to non-magical weapons shouldn't be something that you get served on a plate and if you don't have to worry about monsters being dangerous, what's the point of having monster that are immune to stuff anyway? And like Memnosyne mentioned, there are other ways to get around immunities and resistances besides +1 weapons. You can use silvered weapons, for example.
A huge hoard of treasure ... ?
Yes? Three to five powerful magic weapons, three to five powerful magic armours, six to ten healing potions and three to five magic items equal to the power level of a bag of holding is *not* a hoard, to you?
A +1 weapon, a +1 set of my preferred armor, a bag of holding, two healing potions and a scroll is considered a huge hoard of magical treasure?
Please read what I actually wrote. If everyone in a party of three to five characters has that, that is a hoard.
I thought I was unusual for being satisfied with that pretty basic list. I have paid to have weapons silvered, but overcoming the concern for encountering a monster that only takes damage from magical weapons is a priority for me and I prefer obtaining a +1 weapon. In one of my two current games, the GM is giving us much more magical treasure than this and I think it has caused problems.
Well, it's not a "pretty basic list", so...
Maybe we have a different timeline in mind. For example, another frequent poster mentioned that a paladin should get a Holy Avenger. I imagine that isn't the only magical item the paladin would acquire. But you didn't mention that that was a "big ask."
I didn't mention what, now? I can't even remember talking with anyone about a Holy Avenger. Are you sure you are replying to the right person?
At what level would you expect to acquire the list of things I provided? Maybe you think I expect these things immediately? Maybe you think I expect these things before level 3? I don't know. But I certainly believe most characters expect to get a much greater list of treasure in less time than I expect it. That is why I anticipate I am an unusual player. I think I have more patience. But maybe that is only my impression.
You were the one talking about low level characters and getting things early. If we go by the books a low level character is around levels 1 to 4. At 5th level you are already Heroes of the Realm, expected to take on challenges of demons, dragons, hydras and giants. Before that they should only have access to common consumable items and perhaps a few uncommon permanent ones.
Heck, even if you start at level 5 in a "high magic campaign" it is still standard to recieve no more than about 500-750 gold and a single uncommon magic item. We can also look at the published adventures. In the Death House introductory adventure designed for levels 1-3, what you get is a spell book, a Cloak of Protection, four minor healing potions, a silvered short sword and some gold and jewellry. Not even close to what you mention that you expect a low level character to have.
Well, I don't think we're so far apart really. When I say early, I mean by the time I get to level 5. The Bag of Holding and the scrolls are a "party Asset." I still don't think it is outrageous to get +1 armor by level 5, but I'm not going to pout about it if I don't get it. As for +2s and +3s, I figure by level 10, and by level 15, so you have the +1 +2 +3 quality gear as you move into the next tier.
That still puts you way ahead of the curve.
But I can tell you that you would be pulling your hair out with one of my GMs, who is a generous fellow. I think he has made the encounter design unbalanced and is committed to it so he can't untie the Gordian Knot.
And here you see the problem with too much magical loot too early. :)
Do you really think most tables give out less that +1 weapons and +1 armor by level 5? I get a sense that most of the players I hear about here are way above that. When I hear about their stats and feats I think, Wow!!, I won't get to that by level 18. If they have all that, then I figure they got some pretty good gear too. It seems a lot of players expect to be Heros by level 2.
The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea is that your character will be just as valid with magic items as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before or even at level 5 is quite a lot.
Well, I just can't understand the apparent vitriolic reaction you (LostWhileFishing) have to the idea that this is a reasonable desire.
What do you think a level 5 party should have with regard to magic items? I have two active games. In game one we have a Bard, Two Paladins, a War Cleric, a Ranger, A Rogue and a Sorcerer. In the second game we have a Bard, a Paladin, A Life Cleric and a Ranger.
I'm also not sure how to interpret your last comment.
[LWF] The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea will be just as valid with magic items
as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before even at level 5 is quite a lot.
This appears to be an argument against giving out magic items at all. I don't think you mean that.
How about this, would you share some examples of games you played in as a PC and list what the party obtained as they were playing through 5th level?
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The OP's players complained that they were not being given enough magic items. This complain in and of itself smacks of entitlement and such an attitude should be discouraged. You get the magic items the DM gives you, and as long as the DM is not giving out magic items that are unfairly useful to certain party members, if the DM decides to give none, or a lot, is up to each DM. My players had better never complain I am "not giving out enough magic items" or I'd immediately and slavishly stick to the rulebook rather than being slightly more generous than the rulebook calls for, as I have been so far. Or I might just, stop giving out any magic items at all.
The giving out of magic items is up to the DM, not the players. Now, the players could say something reasonable like, "We might have more fun if you gave us some more nifty magic items," and as a DM, I would be willing to entertain feedback phrased like that. But phrased as a a demand? That's not going to fly with me.
The OP's players are clearly trapped in a mindset of wanting to be highly overpowered -- not only demanding more magic items, but also trying to long rest after every encounter. This tells me that they want to be at full or better than full for every battle, and are not interested in managing resources and find having to do so "limiting." The OP should have a long talk with the group about what kind of campaign they want to play in, and the DM wants to run -- if you want to play in an "Epic heroism" level campaign and I want to run a "gritty realism" campaign, there's going to be trouble. Everyone needs to agree on the scale of the campaign.
Other than that, I don't think it's going to be useful for people to start listing out the magic items their parties had in various campaigns. These are all anecdotal and too subject to the preferences of the individual table to be useful to the OP.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Well, I just can't understand the apparent vitriolic reaction you (LostWhileFishing) have to the idea that this is a reasonable desire.
Probably because that vitriol is a figment of your own imagination. No worries, I don't mind. :)
What do you think a level 5 party should have with regard to magic items? I have two active games. In game one we have a Bard, Two Paladins, a War Cleric, a Ranger, A Rogue and a Sorcerer. In the second game we have a Bard, a Paladin, A Life Cleric and a Ranger.
Well, that of course is completely up to the DM. "Not too many" would probably be a good answer. If we go by the DMG, some uncommon and perhaps rare ones that they are mean to be able to use for the rest of their careers seems to be what the game designers are aiming for. From the rules though it is quite obvious that magic items, even common ones, are to be considered rarities almost to the extreme.
I'm also not sure how to interpret your last comment.
[LWF] The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea will be just as valid with magic items
as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before even at level 5 is quite a lot.
I'm not sure if there are any ways except the obvious one to interpret what I actually wrote. The way the game is designed is that your character doesn't need to pick up a single magic item, ever, from level 1 to level 20, and it will still be a valid character to will be able to perform perfectly well. Magic items are a bonus, not a necessity.
This appears to be an argument against giving out magic items at all. I don't think you mean that.
Of course not. There is nothing in any of my statements that suggest anything of the sort. Again, are you sure you are replying to the right person?
How about this, would you share some examples of games you played in as a PC and list what the party obtained as they were playing through 5th level?
Not sure what that has to do with anything and we are getting extremely off topic so no, I feel no need what so ever to do that. But if you start your own thread where that is actually the topic, I might give it a go. Is that good for you? :)
The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea is that your character will be just as valid with magic items as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before or even at level 5 is quite a lot.
I'd like to see a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa then :)
Sure, a specific creature but does illustrate a thing or two about this supposed "no magic item" design.
Hint to WotC: if you want to claim that the edition is balanced so that you don't need magic items AT ALL then don't introduce monsters who are immune to nonmagical attacks.
The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea is that your character will be just as valid with magic items as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before or even at level 5 is quite a lot.
I'd like to see a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa then :)
Why would a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa? But sure. "Magic Weapon" is a level 2 spell (the spell effects the weapon, not the Rakshasa) and so is Shadow Blade. You also have spells like Shillelagh and Divine Favor. Monks at level 6 ignore magic immunities. Whisper Bards can hurt the Rakshasa using Psychic Blades, Zealot Barbarians can use Divine Fury, Paladins can smite. If you have a Moon Druid they can use their elemental form quite effectively and so on and so on. Honestly, were you looking for advice to fight a monster you knew nothing about or do you just not know the rules very well?
Sure, a specific creature but does illustrate a thing or two about this supposed "no magic item" design.
That magic items are not a necessity? Yes, you are quite right.
Hint to WotC: if you want to claim that the edition is balanced so that you don't need magic items AT ALL then don't introduce monsters who are immune to nonmagical attacks.
The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea is that your character will be just as valid with magic items as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before or even at level 5 is quite a lot.
I'd like to see a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa then :)
Why would a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa?
Because Rakshasa's exist and magic items don't in this supposed scenario :)
Your points are noted, there are ways. I have never said it's impossible. If you have a specific class selection and if the DM takes pity on you by not playing the monster to it's full capabilities. For instance, surprising the party as an intelligent, conniving, shapeshifting monster with access to planeshift, fly and invisibility can.
The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea is that your character will be just as valid with magic items as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before or even at level 5 is quite a lot.
I'd like to see a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa then :)
Why would a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa?
Because Rakshasa's exist and magic items don't in this supposed scenario :)
First of all, no-one has said that magic weapons do not exist so I can't see how that strawman is impossible. Also, you haven't answered the question as to why the party has to fight the Rakshasa. Do you always fight everything you encounter in your games? One would think that encountering an enemy that is very hard to defeat through violence would encourage other solutions, don't you agree?
Your points are noted, there are ways. I have never said it's impossible. If you have a specific class selection and if the DM takes pity on you by not playing the monster to it's full capabilities. For instance, surprising the party as an intelligent, conniving, shapeshifting monster with access to planeshift, fly and invisibility can.
Those were just a bunch of example om top of my head, it wasn't an exhaustive list of options. DM pity has nothing to do with it. But if the DM throws CR13 encounters on you at level 10 with no way of solving it besides violence, that honestly doesn't sound like a fun game.
So to summarize, there are a couple of schools of DMing regarding magic items.
1.) Don't give your parties magic items, and they're jerks if they say anything.
2.) Basic, low-level magic gear should be fairly easy to accumulate by level 5 or so. Higher-powered gear should be the subject of a quest.
3.) Magic is all over the dang place. If they want to find an enchanter and buy a +3 sentient magic weapon, go for it. Throw out the CR tables and let's get crazy in here!
I lean toward 3. My parties get vestige-style weapons through quests tied to their back stories that power up with them during the campaign. Monsters get tougher, smarter, and more numerous.
I made this post. Somewhere in the replies seem to have lost the fact that I am running "The Dungeon Of The Mad Mage" module. Yes i am liking what i am hearing overall. through trial and error am i becoming a better DM, if i were running my own game (no module) i think it would be easier to use some of these ideas but using a module its making me have to be careful.
In my last game the party ended up fighting 3 Gibbering Mouthers, i slightly altered them and though the fight itself went smoothly one of my PCs was 1 hit from death. She got very salty but what can you do. The encounter could have been massively more dangerous but they used a silence spell. I was sitting here thinking after the fact had they not used the silence that more than one could have died. In this module it was something they would inevitably run into if they were exploring the entire level but still made me feel like i overpowered them when i had not.
I have another scenario i am going to post because i want some ideas on how i managed it and if i should have or not.
Seeing as my thread has led to arguing amongst each other I would close the thread if i knew how. Thank you though for those who have given me helpful suggestions.
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I don't think that an entire party of say 6 people, has all 6 of them with +1 main weapons and +1 armor by level 5 at most tables. That's twelve +1 items in a party of 6, by level 5. That's more than 2 per level, meaning that if you spread them out, by level 3, the entire party has at least a +1 in something. Again, I think this is rather early.
Not everyone needs one of course (wizards and the like don't; monks' hands become their own magic weapons, etc). But speaking of monks, notice that their hands become magic weapons at level 6, which is not by level 5. So if you, for example, as a DM, gave every single player in the game a magic weapon by level 5 and the monk is using open hand, wouldn't it be unfair to the monk to have that person be the ONLY member of the party with no +1 attack at level 5?
Again, I don't think that having the +1 weapons start to be given out by level 5 is a problem... they should begin by then but not end by then, and for everyone to have +1 weapons and +1 armor by the time they hit level 5, that is early. You would find the level 5 encounters to be much too easy.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yes? Three to five powerful magic weapons, three to five powerful magic armours, six to ten healing potions and three to five magic items equal to the power level of a bag of holding is *not* a hoard, to you?
Please read what I actually wrote. If everyone in a party of three to five characters has that, that is a hoard.
Well, it's not a "pretty basic list", so...
I didn't mention what, now? I can't even remember talking with anyone about a Holy Avenger. Are you sure you are replying to the right person?
You were the one talking about low level characters and getting things early. If we go by the books a low level character is around levels 1 to 4. At 5th level you are already Heroes of the Realm, expected to take on challenges of demons, dragons, hydras and giants. Before that they should only have access to common consumable items and perhaps a few uncommon permanent ones.
Heck, even if you start at level 5 in a "high magic campaign" it is still standard to recieve no more than about 500-750 gold and a single uncommon magic item. We can also look at the published adventures. In the Death House introductory adventure designed for levels 1-3, what you get is a spell book, a Cloak of Protection, four minor healing potions, a silvered short sword and some gold and jewellry. Not even close to what you mention that you expect a low level character to have.
That still puts you way ahead of the curve.
And here you see the problem with too much magical loot too early. :)
The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea is that your character will be just as valid with magic items as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before or even at level 5 is quite a lot.
Well, I just can't understand the apparent vitriolic reaction you (LostWhileFishing) have to the idea that this is a reasonable desire.
What do you think a level 5 party should have with regard to magic items? I have two active games. In game one we have a Bard, Two Paladins, a War Cleric, a Ranger, A Rogue and a Sorcerer. In the second game we have a Bard, a Paladin, A Life Cleric and a Ranger.
I'm also not sure how to interpret your last comment.
[LWF] The way 5E is designed you don't really need any magic items, ever. The whole idea will be just as valid with magic items
as without. But yes, having all the stuff you mentioned before even at level 5 is quite a lot.
This appears to be an argument against giving out magic items at all. I don't think you mean that.
How about this, would you share some examples of games you played in as a PC and list what the party obtained as they were playing through 5th level?
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Let's try to stick to the topic.
The OP's players complained that they were not being given enough magic items. This complain in and of itself smacks of entitlement and such an attitude should be discouraged. You get the magic items the DM gives you, and as long as the DM is not giving out magic items that are unfairly useful to certain party members, if the DM decides to give none, or a lot, is up to each DM. My players had better never complain I am "not giving out enough magic items" or I'd immediately and slavishly stick to the rulebook rather than being slightly more generous than the rulebook calls for, as I have been so far. Or I might just, stop giving out any magic items at all.
The giving out of magic items is up to the DM, not the players. Now, the players could say something reasonable like, "We might have more fun if you gave us some more nifty magic items," and as a DM, I would be willing to entertain feedback phrased like that. But phrased as a a demand? That's not going to fly with me.
The OP's players are clearly trapped in a mindset of wanting to be highly overpowered -- not only demanding more magic items, but also trying to long rest after every encounter. This tells me that they want to be at full or better than full for every battle, and are not interested in managing resources and find having to do so "limiting." The OP should have a long talk with the group about what kind of campaign they want to play in, and the DM wants to run -- if you want to play in an "Epic heroism" level campaign and I want to run a "gritty realism" campaign, there's going to be trouble. Everyone needs to agree on the scale of the campaign.
Other than that, I don't think it's going to be useful for people to start listing out the magic items their parties had in various campaigns. These are all anecdotal and too subject to the preferences of the individual table to be useful to the OP.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Probably because that vitriol is a figment of your own imagination. No worries, I don't mind. :)
Well, that of course is completely up to the DM. "Not too many" would probably be a good answer. If we go by the DMG, some uncommon and perhaps rare ones that they are mean to be able to use for the rest of their careers seems to be what the game designers are aiming for. From the rules though it is quite obvious that magic items, even common ones, are to be considered rarities almost to the extreme.
I'm not sure if there are any ways except the obvious one to interpret what I actually wrote. The way the game is designed is that your character doesn't need to pick up a single magic item, ever, from level 1 to level 20, and it will still be a valid character to will be able to perform perfectly well. Magic items are a bonus, not a necessity.
Of course not. There is nothing in any of my statements that suggest anything of the sort. Again, are you sure you are replying to the right person?
Not sure what that has to do with anything and we are getting extremely off topic so no, I feel no need what so ever to do that. But if you start your own thread where that is actually the topic, I might give it a go. Is that good for you? :)
Yea, this is going nowhere. Good luck.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I'd like to see a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa then :)
Sure, a specific creature but does illustrate a thing or two about this supposed "no magic item" design.
Hint to WotC: if you want to claim that the edition is balanced so that you don't need magic items AT ALL then don't introduce monsters who are immune to nonmagical attacks.
Why would a 6-person party at level 10 without magical weapons fight a Rakshasa? But sure. "Magic Weapon" is a level 2 spell (the spell effects the weapon, not the Rakshasa) and so is Shadow Blade. You also have spells like Shillelagh and Divine Favor. Monks at level 6 ignore magic immunities. Whisper Bards can hurt the Rakshasa using Psychic Blades, Zealot Barbarians can use Divine Fury, Paladins can smite. If you have a Moon Druid they can use their elemental form quite effectively and so on and so on. Honestly, were you looking for advice to fight a monster you knew nothing about or do you just not know the rules very well?
That magic items are not a necessity? Yes, you are quite right.
Tell us why, please?
Because Rakshasa's exist and magic items don't in this supposed scenario :)
Your points are noted, there are ways. I have never said it's impossible. If you have a specific class selection and if the DM takes pity on you by not playing the monster to it's full capabilities. For instance, surprising the party as an intelligent, conniving, shapeshifting monster with access to planeshift, fly and invisibility can.
Oh, and if you disregard Sage Advice :)
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/932792921333493760
But I guess it's just DMing style.
Honestly, were you looking for advice to fight a monster you knew nothing about or do you just not know the rules very well?
Neither but thank god you are here to educate me in such polite way.
Folks, let's stay on topic for the thread rather than sniping at each other.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
First of all, no-one has said that magic weapons do not exist so I can't see how that strawman is impossible. Also, you haven't answered the question as to why the party has to fight the Rakshasa. Do you always fight everything you encounter in your games? One would think that encountering an enemy that is very hard to defeat through violence would encourage other solutions, don't you agree?
Those were just a bunch of example om top of my head, it wasn't an exhaustive list of options. DM pity has nothing to do with it. But if the DM throws CR13 encounters on you at level 10 with no way of solving it besides violence, that honestly doesn't sound like a fun game.
Well, JC himself has said that his tweets aren't rules so yes, I tend to stick to the rules when I play the game.
You're welcome. Could we now please get back on topic?
So to summarize, there are a couple of schools of DMing regarding magic items.
1.) Don't give your parties magic items, and they're jerks if they say anything.
2.) Basic, low-level magic gear should be fairly easy to accumulate by level 5 or so. Higher-powered gear should be the subject of a quest.
3.) Magic is all over the dang place. If they want to find an enchanter and buy a +3 sentient magic weapon, go for it. Throw out the CR tables and let's get crazy in here!
I lean toward 3. My parties get vestige-style weapons through quests tied to their back stories that power up with them during the campaign. Monsters get tougher, smarter, and more numerous.
I made this post. Somewhere in the replies seem to have lost the fact that I am running "The Dungeon Of The Mad Mage" module. Yes i am liking what i am hearing overall. through trial and error am i becoming a better DM, if i were running my own game (no module) i think it would be easier to use some of these ideas but using a module its making me have to be careful.
In my last game the party ended up fighting 3 Gibbering Mouthers, i slightly altered them and though the fight itself went smoothly one of my PCs was 1 hit from death. She got very salty but what can you do. The encounter could have been massively more dangerous but they used a silence spell. I was sitting here thinking after the fact had they not used the silence that more than one could have died. In this module it was something they would inevitably run into if they were exploring the entire level but still made me feel like i overpowered them when i had not.
I have another scenario i am going to post because i want some ideas on how i managed it and if i should have or not.
Again though, thank you all for your support.
Seeing as my thread has led to arguing amongst each other I would close the thread if i knew how. Thank you though for those who have given me helpful suggestions.