Hello, I am a DM whos first experience as a DM was running the Dragon's Heist module. After that one i am now running DotMM. My PCs have complained to me that they are not getting enough magic items. Eventually I caved and ended up giving them magic weapons and armor and now i am regretting it because it is making fights feel too easy.
The other issue I am having is that they want to long rest consistently while in the dungeon. I use to run a pc with these guys and we indeed long rested all the time in our previous dungeons and i have been trying to curve that. Ive been trying to get them to use short rests more often as well. For the most part i have read more on this in these forums and believe I can implement some of those ideas but would like more from DMs out there if possible.
Appreciate any helpful tips!
I have played with the idea in my head to kill my PCs off and have them "alive" in Alterdeep to fix the magic item thing.
If your players struggle with more story-driven play, then it's ok to give them a little of what they want to draw them in. (Start with common magic items, and tease bigger opportunities later.)
Rule One) Improvise.
If the combats are getting too easy, change the combat. Bump up monster HP, give them some enhancements appropriate for their environment, add environmental challenges, or just increase the number of monster they need to face. Combat is noisy and draws attention.
Rule Two) Incorporate.
"Yes, and...", "No, but..."
The players should have the opportunity to achieve nearly anything they want, but it doesn't have to come easily. Chasing down magic items can easily turn into its own quest or story arc.
If all else fails, build in contingencies.
Consumable or fragile magic items can give the players options without letting them dominate every encounter.
I haven't played or run either of those two adventures, but DotMM sounds like a good candidate for "Arcane Wells", or some other mechanism by which a player could recharge "experimental" magic items. For example, you could give them a Sun Blade, which has a reservoir of mysterious fluid in the hilt. Every time the player activates the item, the fluid drains a little and blade appears for 1 minute. If they consume all of the charges, they need to find an "Arcane Well" to recharge the item, which gives you a new measure of control. (A sword could be +1 by default, but have an experimental Flame Tongue property.)
TL;DR
Players may not always get what they ask for, but they can always be met halfway.
I have been both running and playing D&D for a number of years now and I can pretty much say that players will always want more experience / milestones and more magic items. There are several reasons for this, but mainly it is because they want their characters to progress and grow. They will spend time thinking about those characters and the things they would like them to do. That doesn't mean you have to give them everything right away or feel that you are being 'mean' or 'stingy' when you do not. You want to keep your game balanced.
One thing that can help with this is to talk to the players about their characters. Ask them for long (and short) term goals and expectations. Make notes. Decide which things are reasonable and when /where they can fit into your plot. Players will generally be more patient if they know that they have been heard and most will be willing to wait and work towards their goals. For example, the paladin in my campaign wants a Holy Avenger. The player says that he realizes this will be "a long way off." Right now (at level 7), he has a +1 sword that will glow like a torch upon command. What he doesn't know is that I have taken an idea from the Vestiges of Divergence in the Explorers Guide to Wildmount and that this sword can eventually become more powerful. Alternately, I could have chosen to have his order send him (and his friends) on a quest where he might win such a weapon. [I am using the sword he just found because I already have backstory and lore for it.]
As for items you have already given to PCs and now consider too powerful, I would not recommend killing them, even if they end up "alive in Alterdeep." Instead, you could have some of their possessions stolen by a significant NPC who they will have to track down and defeat in order to reclaim them. Better, you could put them in a situation where they have to sacrifice magic items in order to save someone or prevent some catastrophe. (maybe some big evil end-the-world portal/ritual/summoning) [I suppose you could even do a cataclysm and drain all the magic out of your world -- or out of a region, but that is pretty extreme and should likely have been mentioned as part of the campaign at session 0.] Better to have them make the choice -- even if they feel trapped into it by overwhelming threat. That way, while they may bemoan their loss, you can make them feel like heroes. Just use plenty of praise from superiors, mentors or local VIPs and townspeople.
In the future, you may want to give them more consumable items, just as Memnosyne suggested. Instead of a magic +1 bow, give them 10 or so +1 arrows. Pick things like a Bead of Force or a Feather Token or even potions and scrolls for you treasure hoards.
Finally, for the problem of long rests while in the dungeon.... How are they managing that? If they don't have at least a Tiny Hut spell, what is to keep them from being interrupted? Also, even if they do have such a spell, you can still have them awakened by a companions rancorous snoring or shouting and thrashing around in a nightmare. Talk to the players OOC about this as well. Explain the benefits of short rests. Discuss pacing. And keep track of the time. This will let you do things like.... "So, you get back to town, but everything is locked up for the night." and "Well, you have been awake for about 2 hours since your last long rest, so it is really hard to get to sleep again. How do you want to pass the time?"
I don't recall if Mad mage has a wandering monster chart, but make one. If the pcs take a long rest, the monsters have more time to plan. If the encounters are on easy mode but the number of monsters. Or talk with your players about giving up the magic items.
Thank you guys for the information. Being a DM has been kind of hard on me but i do so enjoy how the PCs play and the information you have given me will be sure to help out in my future sessions!
You learned one of the most important rules of DMing -- don't listen to players about the treasure you give out.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't make your players happy. But players do not have a sense of the power level you expect, of what challenges lie ahead, and of what assumptions you made (or the writers of the module made) when designing the adventure. You can easily break an adventure, as you have learned, by giving out too much magic too early.
Players, as a rule, always want more magic items. One of my players (despite me asking him NOT to do this), went through the DMG and decided which exact magic items are on his "wish list" for his character, and emailed me the list. If it were up to him, I bet he'd like to have them all right now, at level 5. But if I gave them to him at level 5, I'd have to either dramatically up the power level of the monsters (thus defeating the purpose of the magic items, because it would counter-act them) or else they would be able to steam roll the adventure. Neither of these are desirable options. And to make matters worse, he is a former DM of many adventures, so it's not like he doesn't know that too much magic treasure too early can break a game.
In trying to make your players happy, sometimes as a DM you have to employ "tough love". There is the stuff players say they'd like, which they really would -- and then there is the stuff players think they'd like, and say they'd like, but if they got it, they'd actually come to regret it. As DM, it's your job to avoid giving them things that will ultimately make them unhappy. Kind of like the parent that refuses to allow a child to have chocolate cake for dinner. The child thinks it'd be a good idea, but as a parent, you know it's not.
I am sure I am a bit unusual, but the biggest reason I want a magic weapon early is just because some monsters may only be damaged by magical weapons. A +1 of my chosen primary weapon is good enough for that, so a +1 longsword, +1 Rapier or +1 mace should do the trick. Having a +1 backup weapon would be nice, but I don't get crazy trying to acquire a magical backup weapon. A +1 dagger is also appreciated for the same reasons.
As a low level character, I kinda love to have either a Bag of Holding or the Backpack that does the same thing. The BoH is great when I'm walking around town, but doesn't carry as much.
I really like have 2 healing potions early, just in case.
A +1 armor in my preferred type is also very appealing, but is not as important as a +1 weapon at first. As a Rogue or Bard, getting Elven Chain is really great.
Scrolls and potions are good items to give a party at first. They Are Magic Items, but they are only single use magic items. If you give them something powerful, well it is only a single use item.
After getting a +1 weapon and a +1 armor, two healing potions and a Bag of Holding, I figure getting better equipment should almost be a quest in itself. You should mention the rarity of better equipment and use that to justify the struggle necessary to acquire those items.
For me, never, but never, have a magic item shop where PCs can just earn enough coin to buy whatever suits them. This will also make them feel they can sell the sub-optimal stuff. I think that leads down a bad path.
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I am sure I am a bit unusual, but the biggest reason I want a magic weapon early is just because some monsters may only be damaged by magical weapons. A +1 of my chosen primary weapon is good enough for that, so a +1 longsword, +1 Rapier or +1 mace should do the trick. Having a +1 backup weapon would be nice, but I don't get crazy trying to acquire a magical backup weapon. A +1 dagger is also appreciated for the same reasons.
Keep in mind that Common magical weapons, like the Moon-Touched Sword, also qualify for overcoming damage resistance, despite not having a +1 bonus.
I get the impression that a lot people see it as a vanity item, rather than as a valuable low-level combat resource.
Also... I'm not sure how constructive it is to desire, at very low levels, a magic weapon so that it can overcome monster magic resistances. The reality is that if the DM wants the monster to be resistant to your attacks, he can have it be resistant to anything he wants. As a DM, I did put one monster resistant to normal weapons up against a party that only had one +1 weapon. I did that on purpose, as a challenge. But if they'd had magic weapons, they'd have fought two such monsters, or three, rather than one.
My point is, as a player, you can't win the arms race against the monsters by acquiring items that overcome specific abilities. The DM can just give them more abilities. Oh you have +1 weapons now? OK, the next monster I choose from MM will have +2 AC and immunity to 4 different damage types. Good luck with the +1 weapons.
I'm not saying a DM should be trying to harm the party. What I'm saying is that, a good DM is thoughtful and careful about what enemies the party will fight. I did not put an Iron Cobra against the level 4 party by accident or by random rolls. I did it by design. It not only fit the setting (it was the guardian of an doorway to an underground necropolis made by ancient reptile people), but also, I wanted them to fight a magic-resistant monster for the first time without magic, so that they could be in a little awe of it, and now have to solve, as a party, the problem of "what do we do when our weapons suddenly don't work?" So as a DM, if I want to challenge the party with something, knowing their abilities and spells, I will look up what monsters will give them a challenge by maybe having their weakness or being immune to their strengths. This is not to punish but to challenge, to make them think outside the box and problem solve (which they have done, every time, so far).
I'm not saying it isn't nice to have a +1 weapon, and it's always better to have a +1 than a +0, of course. But "I want to overcome monster resistance" really shouldn't be the reason to want one, because if the DM wants to give it resistance to your attacks, the DM can do that, no matter what attacks you have.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I skimmed these comments and didn't see this mentioned, so sorry if it was already, but do keep in mind that characters can only take 1 long rest per 24 hours. You can't sleep for 8 hours, wander around for an hour, and then sleep for another 8 hours. Even if you're injured, you're not tired.
A homebrew rule you could also introduce is to rule that PC's can't benefit from a short rest if they're out of hit die.
Yeah, players being needy for regular magical items is usually pointless, as BioWizard stated. The DM can adjust accordingly barring a few "oh shit!" moments when some creative use of utility magic items takes them by surprise.
That only goes as far as Rare items go, I think. Very Rare and Legendary items have innate coolness factor that goes beyond the raw statistics. If I played a Paladin, I'd say that you can beef up the monster anyway you want if you give me a Holy Avenger.
And the Paladin should, eventually, get a Holy Avenger, or something equivalent to it. Actually, if I'm the DM, I'm going to make it a special sword blessed by the Paladin's god, unique but with the same stats as a holy avenger, and then probably something extra pertinent to the specific god. So for instance, in addition to all the other abilities it has, if you are a Paladin of Mercury, the sword might allow you to cast Haste once/day. It would be the Sword of Mercury rather than called a "Holy Avenger" but it would do all that an Avenger can do + the Haste.
If you're a paladin of Venus, instead of Haste maybe it's Charm Person once a day... if you're a paladin of Diana maybe it allows you to cast Moonbeam once a day instead of Haste... etc. The point is something that is characteristic of the god you serve.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If this is what your players want then give it to them, if they are not worried about the combat being too easy or all the long rests then it shouldn't be a big deal.
There are so many ways to challenge your party that has nothing to do with combat. So you're in a dungeon and there is a cliff you have to go up or down it's about a mile long and the winds are crazy strong so no flying or levitating. A +20 vorpal sword isn't going to help at all with this.
They want a long rest well did you know in this cave there is a type of bat and it's their mating season so you need to make a wisdom save to see if you got any sleep of the mating call going on all night.
You are outside how about this massive storm that came in and you had a flash flood during the night so everyone has to get up and get moving to find a safe place. Well, there goes that long rest. It's more than just saying no and it is adding a whole nother layer to the game.
I like using crazy bob's discount magical item shop, they are cheap but just don't work right all the time.
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"If you really want to do this roll 4 d6 six times and write them down on this sheet"
Also, if they insist on long resting after every encounter, why not make them NEED to long rest after each encounter by making them all very tough encounters :)
I am sure I am a bit unusual, but the biggest reason I want a magic weapon early is just because some monsters may only be damaged by magical weapons. A +1 of my chosen primary weapon is good enough for that, so a +1 longsword, +1 Rapier or +1 mace should do the trick. Having a +1 backup weapon would be nice, but I don't get crazy trying to acquire a magical backup weapon. A +1 dagger is also appreciated for the same reasons.
As a low level character, I kinda love to have either a Bag of Holding or the Backpack that does the same thing. The BoH is great when I'm walking around town, but doesn't carry as much.
I really like have 2 healing potions early, just in case.
A +1 armor in my preferred type is also very appealing, but is not as important as a +1 weapon at first. As a Rogue or Bard, getting Elven Chain is really great.
Scrolls and potions are good items to give a party at first. They Are Magic Items, but they are only single use magic items. If you give them something powerful, well it is only a single use item.
After getting a +1 weapon and a +1 armor, two healing potions and a Bag of Holding, I figure getting better equipment should almost be a quest in itself. You should mention the rarity of better equipment and use that to justify the struggle necessary to acquire those items.
For me, never, but never, have a magic item shop where PCs can just earn enough coin to buy whatever suits them. This will also make them feel they can sell the sub-optimal stuff. I think that leads down a bad path.
Well, all those things is a huge hoard of treasure worthy of a great adventure in and of itself. Especially if the rest of a 3-5 member group also has the same amount. Over-coming immunities to non-magical weapons shouldn't be something that you get served on a plate and if you don't have to worry about monsters being dangerous, what's the point of having monster that are immune to stuff anyway? And like Memnosyne mentioned, there are other ways to get around immunities and resistances besides +1 weapons. You can use silvered weapons, for example.
Back to OP's questions. If the players have a bunch of magic items already, just wait a looong while before giving them any more. They already got their goodies early so now they have to wait for more.
As for the issues with long rests, my group uses the rule that you can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hours. Not only does this make short rests more useful (and I think we capped that at two per long rest, not sure, long time since we had to use more than one short rest per day), it also keeps the tempo and the mood up. It's kind of weird otherwise. You wake up, open a few doors, fight a few monsters and then, after only being up for a couple of hours, you go back to sleep for 8 hours? Doesn't make sense to me.
Also, if you want to push players to avoid long rests, you can also use in-game reasons (as well as the previously mentioned wandering monsters) to keep the players on their toes. If they stop and rest they will run out of food and supplies quicker. How many torches did they bring? Their foes aren't going to sit idly by while they rest. Have them face barricades and prepared ambushes and enemies that have been able to bring in reinforcements while the party rested. Maybe all of the treasures are gone, evacuated while the PCs slept? Or the villain just up and left, leaving nothing but traps in the lair? The world moves even when the players aren't looking. Make sure that their enemies spend the extra time your players so generously have given them well...
I am sure I am a bit unusual, but the biggest reason I want a magic weapon early is just because some monsters may only be damaged by magical weapons. A +1 of my chosen primary weapon is good enough for that, so a +1 longsword, +1 Rapier or +1 mace should do the trick. Having a +1 backup weapon would be nice, but I don't get crazy trying to acquire a magical backup weapon. A +1 dagger is also appreciated for the same reasons.
As a low level character, I kinda love to have either a Bag of Holding or the Backpack that does the same thing. The BoH is great when I'm walking around town, but doesn't carry as much.
I really like have 2 healing potions early, just in case.
A +1 armor in my preferred type is also very appealing, but is not as important as a +1 weapon at first. As a Rogue or Bard, getting Elven Chain is really great.
Scrolls and potions are good items to give a party at first. They Are Magic Items, but they are only single use magic items. If you give them something powerful, well it is only a single use item.
After getting a +1 weapon and a +1 armor, two healing potions and a Bag of Holding, I figure getting better equipment should almost be a quest in itself. You should mention the rarity of better equipment and use that to justify the struggle necessary to acquire those items.
For me, never, but never, have a magic item shop where PCs can just earn enough coin to buy whatever suits them. This will also make them feel they can sell the sub-optimal stuff. I think that leads down a bad path.
Well, all those things is a huge hoard of treasure worthy of a great adventure in and of itself. Especially if the rest of a 3-5 member group also has the same amount. Over-coming immunities to non-magical weapons shouldn't be something that you get served on a plate and if you don't have to worry about monsters being dangerous, what's the point of having monster that are immune to stuff anyway? And like Memnosyne mentioned, there are other ways to get around immunities and resistances besides +1 weapons. You can use silvered weapons, for example.
A huge hoard of treasure ... ?
A +1 weapon, a +1 set of my preferred armor, a bag of holding, two healing potions and a scroll is considered a huge hoard of magical treasure? I thought I was unusual for being satisfied with that pretty basic list. I have paid to have weapons silvered, but overcoming the concern for encountering a monster that only takes damage from magical weapons is a priority for me and I prefer obtaining a +1 weapon. In one of my two current games, the GM is giving us much more magical treasure than this and I think it has caused problems.
Maybe we have a different timeline in mind. For example, another frequent poster mentioned that a paladin should get a Holy Avenger. I imagine that isn't the only magical item the paladin would acquire. But you didn't mention that that was a "big ask." At what level would you expect to acquire the list of things I provided? Maybe you think I expect these things immediately? Maybe you think I expect these things before level 3? I don't know. But I certainly believe most characters expect to get a much greater list of treasure in less time than I expect it. That is why I anticipate I am an unusual player. I think I have more patience. But maybe that is only my impression.
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Maybe you think I expect these things before level 3?
Well you said in your first post that you wanted these things "early" and "at low level" - you did not specify, so there's no real way of knowing what you meant by "early." Perhaps you mean by 5th level? By 8th? 10th? What do you consider "early?"
Most people view "early" as levels 1-4 or 1-5. I would say expecting every character in the party to have a +1 primary weapon, +1 primary armor, a bag of holding, 2 healing potions, and a scroll by level 5 is probably over the top. At level 5, my current party has exactly one magical weapon (a +1 dagger the ranger uses for her off-hand weapon) no +armor, 1 bag of holding total, not per character, and maybe, at this point, about 1 healing potion each (though, they have used a few so they probably have gotten 2 each total). And they each have a scroll or so. They also have a few other potions that could count instead of healing.
The main thing I haven't given out yet is the better armor and weapons. I think those are not necessary pre-level 5. And that is why I haven't given them out yet. (Also, there was one in the last dungeon they explored but they didn't find it -- oh well.)
Before you say, you didn't ask for the whole party to have +1/+1/Bag/2 potions/scroll -- if you get to have those things, everyone gets to have those things. Otherwise it would be unfair.
I look at it this way. The maximum + you can have (at least by the book) is +3. If that is so, then you will be at +3 at level 20 -- can't really have more than that. (Though higher items usually do +3 and then something else, like a Holy Avenger does.) If that is so, then with 3 bonuses across 20 levels, that's about +1 per 7 levels. That means to me that by level 7 the whole party should be into +1s, by level 14 they should be into +2s, and by level 20 they should be into +3s. So I could see expecting to be at +1/+1 by level 7 for everyone in the party, and they get these items bit by bit over a few levels. Then between 7 and 14, slowly they start finding +2s, weighting them more toward the back side (11-14) than early. Then in the higher teens they find their +3s.
As for a bag of holding -- there is no way I would give the party enough that everyone has one. The party has ONE to decide what they want to put in there. More than that is overkill. And should not be necessary. What are you carrying all that crap around for? Get rid of some of it. Sell it or buy a storage locker or rent an apartment and keep the incidentals/extras in there. You don't need to carry around 4 weapons, 2 spare shields, 17 potions, 37 scrolls, and 40,000 copper pieces.
Well, I don't think we're so far apart really. When I say early, I mean by the time I get to level 5. The Bag of Holding and the scrolls are a "party Asset." I still don't think it is outrageous to get +1 armor by level 5, but I'm not going to pout about it if I don't get it. As for +2s and +3s, I figure by level 10, and by level 15, so you have the +1 +2 +3 quality gear as you move into the next tier.
But I can tell you that you would be pulling your hair out with one of my GMs, who is a generous fellow. I think he has made the encounter design unbalanced and is committed to it so he can't untie the Gordian Knot.
Do you really think most tables give out less that +1 weapons and +1 armor by level 5? I get a sense that most of the players I hear about here are way above that. When I hear about their stats and feats I think, Wow!!, I won't get to that by level 18. If they have all that, then I figure they got some pretty good gear too. It seems a lot of players expect to be Heros by level 2.
Hello, I am a DM whos first experience as a DM was running the Dragon's Heist module. After that one i am now running DotMM. My PCs have complained to me that they are not getting enough magic items. Eventually I caved and ended up giving them magic weapons and armor and now i am regretting it because it is making fights feel too easy.
The other issue I am having is that they want to long rest consistently while in the dungeon. I use to run a pc with these guys and we indeed long rested all the time in our previous dungeons and i have been trying to curve that. Ive been trying to get them to use short rests more often as well. For the most part i have read more on this in these forums and believe I can implement some of those ideas but would like more from DMs out there if possible.
Appreciate any helpful tips!
I have played with the idea in my head to kill my PCs off and have them "alive" in Alterdeep to fix the magic item thing.
Rule Zero) Have fun.
If your players struggle with more story-driven play, then it's ok to give them a little of what they want to draw them in. (Start with common magic items, and tease bigger opportunities later.)
Rule One) Improvise.
If the combats are getting too easy, change the combat. Bump up monster HP, give them some enhancements appropriate for their environment, add environmental challenges, or just increase the number of monster they need to face. Combat is noisy and draws attention.
Rule Two) Incorporate.
"Yes, and...", "No, but..."
The players should have the opportunity to achieve nearly anything they want, but it doesn't have to come easily. Chasing down magic items can easily turn into its own quest or story arc.
If all else fails, build in contingencies.
Consumable or fragile magic items can give the players options without letting them dominate every encounter.
I haven't played or run either of those two adventures, but DotMM sounds like a good candidate for "Arcane Wells", or some other mechanism by which a player could recharge "experimental" magic items. For example, you could give them a Sun Blade, which has a reservoir of mysterious fluid in the hilt. Every time the player activates the item, the fluid drains a little and blade appears for 1 minute. If they consume all of the charges, they need to find an "Arcane Well" to recharge the item, which gives you a new measure of control. (A sword could be +1 by default, but have an experimental Flame Tongue property.)
TL;DR
Players may not always get what they ask for, but they can always be met halfway.
I have been both running and playing D&D for a number of years now and I can pretty much say that players will always want more experience / milestones and more magic items. There are several reasons for this, but mainly it is because they want their characters to progress and grow. They will spend time thinking about those characters and the things they would like them to do. That doesn't mean you have to give them everything right away or feel that you are being 'mean' or 'stingy' when you do not. You want to keep your game balanced.
One thing that can help with this is to talk to the players about their characters. Ask them for long (and short) term goals and expectations. Make notes. Decide which things are reasonable and when /where they can fit into your plot. Players will generally be more patient if they know that they have been heard and most will be willing to wait and work towards their goals. For example, the paladin in my campaign wants a Holy Avenger. The player says that he realizes this will be "a long way off." Right now (at level 7), he has a +1 sword that will glow like a torch upon command. What he doesn't know is that I have taken an idea from the Vestiges of Divergence in the Explorers Guide to Wildmount and that this sword can eventually become more powerful. Alternately, I could have chosen to have his order send him (and his friends) on a quest where he might win such a weapon. [I am using the sword he just found because I already have backstory and lore for it.]
As for items you have already given to PCs and now consider too powerful, I would not recommend killing them, even if they end up "alive in Alterdeep." Instead, you could have some of their possessions stolen by a significant NPC who they will have to track down and defeat in order to reclaim them. Better, you could put them in a situation where they have to sacrifice magic items in order to save someone or prevent some catastrophe. (maybe some big evil end-the-world portal/ritual/summoning) [I suppose you could even do a cataclysm and drain all the magic out of your world -- or out of a region, but that is pretty extreme and should likely have been mentioned as part of the campaign at session 0.] Better to have them make the choice -- even if they feel trapped into it by overwhelming threat. That way, while they may bemoan their loss, you can make them feel like heroes. Just use plenty of praise from superiors, mentors or local VIPs and townspeople.
In the future, you may want to give them more consumable items, just as Memnosyne suggested. Instead of a magic +1 bow, give them 10 or so +1 arrows. Pick things like a Bead of Force or a Feather Token or even potions and scrolls for you treasure hoards.
Finally, for the problem of long rests while in the dungeon.... How are they managing that? If they don't have at least a Tiny Hut spell, what is to keep them from being interrupted? Also, even if they do have such a spell, you can still have them awakened by a companions rancorous snoring or shouting and thrashing around in a nightmare.
Talk to the players OOC about this as well. Explain the benefits of short rests. Discuss pacing. And keep track of the time. This will let you do things like....
"So, you get back to town, but everything is locked up for the night." and "Well, you have been awake for about 2 hours since your last long rest, so it is really hard to get to sleep again. How do you want to pass the time?"
I don't recall if Mad mage has a wandering monster chart, but make one. If the pcs take a long rest, the monsters have more time to plan. If the encounters are on easy mode but the number of monsters. Or talk with your players about giving up the magic items.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Thank you guys for the information. Being a DM has been kind of hard on me but i do so enjoy how the PCs play and the information you have given me will be sure to help out in my future sessions!
If you really don't want them to keep long resting in dungeons, occasionally have their long rest get interrupted by wandering enemies or sentries.
You learned one of the most important rules of DMing -- don't listen to players about the treasure you give out.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't make your players happy. But players do not have a sense of the power level you expect, of what challenges lie ahead, and of what assumptions you made (or the writers of the module made) when designing the adventure. You can easily break an adventure, as you have learned, by giving out too much magic too early.
Players, as a rule, always want more magic items. One of my players (despite me asking him NOT to do this), went through the DMG and decided which exact magic items are on his "wish list" for his character, and emailed me the list. If it were up to him, I bet he'd like to have them all right now, at level 5. But if I gave them to him at level 5, I'd have to either dramatically up the power level of the monsters (thus defeating the purpose of the magic items, because it would counter-act them) or else they would be able to steam roll the adventure. Neither of these are desirable options. And to make matters worse, he is a former DM of many adventures, so it's not like he doesn't know that too much magic treasure too early can break a game.
In trying to make your players happy, sometimes as a DM you have to employ "tough love". There is the stuff players say they'd like, which they really would -- and then there is the stuff players think they'd like, and say they'd like, but if they got it, they'd actually come to regret it. As DM, it's your job to avoid giving them things that will ultimately make them unhappy. Kind of like the parent that refuses to allow a child to have chocolate cake for dinner. The child thinks it'd be a good idea, but as a parent, you know it's not.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I am sure I am a bit unusual, but the biggest reason I want a magic weapon early is just because some monsters may only be damaged by magical weapons. A +1 of my chosen primary weapon is good enough for that, so a +1 longsword, +1 Rapier or +1 mace should do the trick. Having a +1 backup weapon would be nice, but I don't get crazy trying to acquire a magical backup weapon. A +1 dagger is also appreciated for the same reasons.
As a low level character, I kinda love to have either a Bag of Holding or the Backpack that does the same thing. The BoH is great when I'm walking around town, but doesn't carry as much.
I really like have 2 healing potions early, just in case.
A +1 armor in my preferred type is also very appealing, but is not as important as a +1 weapon at first. As a Rogue or Bard, getting Elven Chain is really great.
Scrolls and potions are good items to give a party at first. They Are Magic Items, but they are only single use magic items. If you give them something powerful, well it is only a single use item.
After getting a +1 weapon and a +1 armor, two healing potions and a Bag of Holding, I figure getting better equipment should almost be a quest in itself. You should mention the rarity of better equipment and use that to justify the struggle necessary to acquire those items.
For me, never, but never, have a magic item shop where PCs can just earn enough coin to buy whatever suits them. This will also make them feel they can sell the sub-optimal stuff. I think that leads down a bad path.
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Keep in mind that Common magical weapons, like the Moon-Touched Sword, also qualify for overcoming damage resistance, despite not having a +1 bonus.
I get the impression that a lot people see it as a vanity item, rather than as a valuable low-level combat resource.
Also... I'm not sure how constructive it is to desire, at very low levels, a magic weapon so that it can overcome monster magic resistances. The reality is that if the DM wants the monster to be resistant to your attacks, he can have it be resistant to anything he wants. As a DM, I did put one monster resistant to normal weapons up against a party that only had one +1 weapon. I did that on purpose, as a challenge. But if they'd had magic weapons, they'd have fought two such monsters, or three, rather than one.
My point is, as a player, you can't win the arms race against the monsters by acquiring items that overcome specific abilities. The DM can just give them more abilities. Oh you have +1 weapons now? OK, the next monster I choose from MM will have +2 AC and immunity to 4 different damage types. Good luck with the +1 weapons.
I'm not saying a DM should be trying to harm the party. What I'm saying is that, a good DM is thoughtful and careful about what enemies the party will fight. I did not put an Iron Cobra against the level 4 party by accident or by random rolls. I did it by design. It not only fit the setting (it was the guardian of an doorway to an underground necropolis made by ancient reptile people), but also, I wanted them to fight a magic-resistant monster for the first time without magic, so that they could be in a little awe of it, and now have to solve, as a party, the problem of "what do we do when our weapons suddenly don't work?" So as a DM, if I want to challenge the party with something, knowing their abilities and spells, I will look up what monsters will give them a challenge by maybe having their weakness or being immune to their strengths. This is not to punish but to challenge, to make them think outside the box and problem solve (which they have done, every time, so far).
I'm not saying it isn't nice to have a +1 weapon, and it's always better to have a +1 than a +0, of course. But "I want to overcome monster resistance" really shouldn't be the reason to want one, because if the DM wants to give it resistance to your attacks, the DM can do that, no matter what attacks you have.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I skimmed these comments and didn't see this mentioned, so sorry if it was already, but do keep in mind that characters can only take 1 long rest per 24 hours. You can't sleep for 8 hours, wander around for an hour, and then sleep for another 8 hours. Even if you're injured, you're not tired.
A homebrew rule you could also introduce is to rule that PC's can't benefit from a short rest if they're out of hit die.
Thank you guys for more information. I have started looking into several of the options/critics presented here.
Yeah, players being needy for regular magical items is usually pointless, as BioWizard stated. The DM can adjust accordingly barring a few "oh shit!" moments when some creative use of utility magic items takes them by surprise.
That only goes as far as Rare items go, I think. Very Rare and Legendary items have innate coolness factor that goes beyond the raw statistics. If I played a Paladin, I'd say that you can beef up the monster anyway you want if you give me a Holy Avenger.
And the Paladin should, eventually, get a Holy Avenger, or something equivalent to it. Actually, if I'm the DM, I'm going to make it a special sword blessed by the Paladin's god, unique but with the same stats as a holy avenger, and then probably something extra pertinent to the specific god. So for instance, in addition to all the other abilities it has, if you are a Paladin of Mercury, the sword might allow you to cast Haste once/day. It would be the Sword of Mercury rather than called a "Holy Avenger" but it would do all that an Avenger can do + the Haste.
If you're a paladin of Venus, instead of Haste maybe it's Charm Person once a day... if you're a paladin of Diana maybe it allows you to cast Moonbeam once a day instead of Haste... etc. The point is something that is characteristic of the god you serve.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If this is what your players want then give it to them, if they are not worried about the combat being too easy or all the long rests then it shouldn't be a big deal.
There are so many ways to challenge your party that has nothing to do with combat. So you're in a dungeon and there is a cliff you have to go up or down it's about a mile long and the winds are crazy strong so no flying or levitating. A +20 vorpal sword isn't going to help at all with this.
They want a long rest well did you know in this cave there is a type of bat and it's their mating season so you need to make a wisdom save to see if you got any sleep of the mating call going on all night.
You are outside how about this massive storm that came in and you had a flash flood during the night so everyone has to get up and get moving to find a safe place. Well, there goes that long rest. It's more than just saying no and it is adding a whole nother layer to the game.
I like using crazy bob's discount magical item shop, they are cheap but just don't work right all the time.
"If you really want to do this roll 4 d6 six times and write them down on this sheet"
Also, if they insist on long resting after every encounter, why not make them NEED to long rest after each encounter by making them all very tough encounters :)
Well, all those things is a huge hoard of treasure worthy of a great adventure in and of itself. Especially if the rest of a 3-5 member group also has the same amount. Over-coming immunities to non-magical weapons shouldn't be something that you get served on a plate and if you don't have to worry about monsters being dangerous, what's the point of having monster that are immune to stuff anyway? And like Memnosyne mentioned, there are other ways to get around immunities and resistances besides +1 weapons. You can use silvered weapons, for example.
Back to OP's questions. If the players have a bunch of magic items already, just wait a looong while before giving them any more. They already got their goodies early so now they have to wait for more.
As for the issues with long rests, my group uses the rule that you can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hours. Not only does this make short rests more useful (and I think we capped that at two per long rest, not sure, long time since we had to use more than one short rest per day), it also keeps the tempo and the mood up. It's kind of weird otherwise. You wake up, open a few doors, fight a few monsters and then, after only being up for a couple of hours, you go back to sleep for 8 hours? Doesn't make sense to me.
Also, if you want to push players to avoid long rests, you can also use in-game reasons (as well as the previously mentioned wandering monsters) to keep the players on their toes. If they stop and rest they will run out of food and supplies quicker. How many torches did they bring? Their foes aren't going to sit idly by while they rest. Have them face barricades and prepared ambushes and enemies that have been able to bring in reinforcements while the party rested. Maybe all of the treasures are gone, evacuated while the PCs slept? Or the villain just up and left, leaving nothing but traps in the lair? The world moves even when the players aren't looking. Make sure that their enemies spend the extra time your players so generously have given them well...
A huge hoard of treasure ... ?
A +1 weapon, a +1 set of my preferred armor, a bag of holding, two healing potions and a scroll is considered a huge hoard of magical treasure? I thought I was unusual for being satisfied with that pretty basic list. I have paid to have weapons silvered, but overcoming the concern for encountering a monster that only takes damage from magical weapons is a priority for me and I prefer obtaining a +1 weapon. In one of my two current games, the GM is giving us much more magical treasure than this and I think it has caused problems.
Maybe we have a different timeline in mind. For example, another frequent poster mentioned that a paladin should get a Holy Avenger. I imagine that isn't the only magical item the paladin would acquire. But you didn't mention that that was a "big ask." At what level would you expect to acquire the list of things I provided? Maybe you think I expect these things immediately? Maybe you think I expect these things before level 3? I don't know. But I certainly believe most characters expect to get a much greater list of treasure in less time than I expect it. That is why I anticipate I am an unusual player. I think I have more patience. But maybe that is only my impression.
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Well you said in your first post that you wanted these things "early" and "at low level" - you did not specify, so there's no real way of knowing what you meant by "early." Perhaps you mean by 5th level? By 8th? 10th? What do you consider "early?"
Most people view "early" as levels 1-4 or 1-5. I would say expecting every character in the party to have a +1 primary weapon, +1 primary armor, a bag of holding, 2 healing potions, and a scroll by level 5 is probably over the top. At level 5, my current party has exactly one magical weapon (a +1 dagger the ranger uses for her off-hand weapon) no +armor, 1 bag of holding total, not per character, and maybe, at this point, about 1 healing potion each (though, they have used a few so they probably have gotten 2 each total). And they each have a scroll or so. They also have a few other potions that could count instead of healing.
The main thing I haven't given out yet is the better armor and weapons. I think those are not necessary pre-level 5. And that is why I haven't given them out yet. (Also, there was one in the last dungeon they explored but they didn't find it -- oh well.)
Before you say, you didn't ask for the whole party to have +1/+1/Bag/2 potions/scroll -- if you get to have those things, everyone gets to have those things. Otherwise it would be unfair.
I look at it this way. The maximum + you can have (at least by the book) is +3. If that is so, then you will be at +3 at level 20 -- can't really have more than that. (Though higher items usually do +3 and then something else, like a Holy Avenger does.) If that is so, then with 3 bonuses across 20 levels, that's about +1 per 7 levels. That means to me that by level 7 the whole party should be into +1s, by level 14 they should be into +2s, and by level 20 they should be into +3s. So I could see expecting to be at +1/+1 by level 7 for everyone in the party, and they get these items bit by bit over a few levels. Then between 7 and 14, slowly they start finding +2s, weighting them more toward the back side (11-14) than early. Then in the higher teens they find their +3s.
As for a bag of holding -- there is no way I would give the party enough that everyone has one. The party has ONE to decide what they want to put in there. More than that is overkill. And should not be necessary. What are you carrying all that crap around for? Get rid of some of it. Sell it or buy a storage locker or rent an apartment and keep the incidentals/extras in there. You don't need to carry around 4 weapons, 2 spare shields, 17 potions, 37 scrolls, and 40,000 copper pieces.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Well, I don't think we're so far apart really. When I say early, I mean by the time I get to level 5. The Bag of Holding and the scrolls are a "party Asset." I still don't think it is outrageous to get +1 armor by level 5, but I'm not going to pout about it if I don't get it. As for +2s and +3s, I figure by level 10, and by level 15, so you have the +1 +2 +3 quality gear as you move into the next tier.
But I can tell you that you would be pulling your hair out with one of my GMs, who is a generous fellow. I think he has made the encounter design unbalanced and is committed to it so he can't untie the Gordian Knot.
Do you really think most tables give out less that +1 weapons and +1 armor by level 5? I get a sense that most of the players I hear about here are way above that. When I hear about their stats and feats I think, Wow!!, I won't get to that by level 18. If they have all that, then I figure they got some pretty good gear too. It seems a lot of players expect to be Heros by level 2.
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