Context: My DM gave all of us background secrets at the start of our campaign. Mine was, I need to find a ring in order to gain an inheritance. I think I found the guy who has the ring in question, or at least the item the ring may be in (a fish).
I am a level 2 wizard, and when I level up to 3 and gain access to level 2 spells, I am thinking about preparing Suggestion, but since I have never used it before, I want to make sure I word it in a way that will help me with my goal of either the guy giving me the ring, giving me information on where the ring can be, or giving me the item I also suspect the ring may be in (a fish).
Would the following wording work or be allowed based on the spell's capability?
"I want you to give me the ring that was found in the fish and if you can't then you must give me information on where I can locate the ring. If you can't do such things because you are not aware of such ring, then give me the fish so I can search it myself."
Suggestion Spell:
You suggest a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two) and magically influence a creature you can see within range that can hear and understand you. Creatures that can’t be charmed are immune to this effect. The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do. You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn’t met before the spell expires, the activity isn’t performed. If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends.
This definitely depends on your DM... personally, I wouldn't allow a Suggestion with so many caveats tagged onto it. I feel like it would be too exploitable to be able to deliver a suggestion with multiple "If/then" steps. I would say try to simplify it to just... "Give me the fish and the ring that was inside it". It covers two possibilities while still fitting comfortably in a single, straightforward command.
If I was the DM I wouldn't allow your wording to work. The spell allows you to make a suggestion, not program your target's mind. You don't get three different suggestions strung together with "if" clauses.
About the best you can do is something like "You want to give me a ring that looks like (insert description here). If your target has the ring and fails their save they give it to you. If they don't have it, but find it in a fish before the spell expires, they still give it to you.
I'm a big fan of the suggestion: "Follow all my commands to the best of your ability without trying to subvert them."
Then you have a minion for the next eight hours.
Edit: Though that's probably more powerful than the spell was intended to be, even if technically following the rules as written.
Had to think about that one for a while. "without trying to subvert them" is highly iffy. It's a secondary clause, not part of a single course of action.
Even if the DM lets your suggestion stand, near as I can figure the first command you give that they follow satisfies the terms of the Suggestion spell, and the spell ends. You didn't say for how long they had to follow your commands, and if you did it would be adding yet another clause. You don't get to program your target's mind with "and" statements any more than you get to use "If/Then" statements.
I'd try something like: "You know, that ring might be cursed. Let me dispose of it for you." Just sound reasonable (a caveat of the spell)
I also generally prefer to try and word it in the form of an actual suggestion instead of a command like I'm trying not to get screwed over by a Literal Genie.
There is plenty of disagreement about what exactly it means for the course of action to sound "reasonable". There's also vagueness of what it means for it to be "limited to a sentence or two" (since you can get arbitrarily long run-on sentences). So rather than getting an answer from this thread and then being disappointed when the DM does it differently, talk to them instead.
Here's how I personally would rule it as a DM, just so you can see the thought process, but again, caveat that your DM may think of it differently.
I'd interpret "any activity, as long as you make it sound reasonable" as basically the upper end of a persuasion check. If there is even the slightest chance that what you're saying would possibly convince the person to do as you want, then the suggestion works. If there's no chance that there's anything could ever persuade the person to do the thing, then the spell would not work. Maybe a bit like jedi mind-trick - these are not the droids you're looking for." But it's not full mind-control.
"Limited to a sentence or two" means the instructions should be pretty simple. So I probably wouldn't allow complicated clauses like "if-this-then-that-otherwise-this-but-if-something-else-then-something-else".
So in my game I probably wouldn't allow "I want you to give me the ring that was found in the fish and if you can't then you must give me information on where I can locate the ring. If you can't do such things because you are not aware of such ring, then give me the fish so I can search it myself."
But I probably would allow something like "It's really important, critical for the safety of you and me and this city, that I find the ring that was inside this fish. Help me get it." The actual command here is vaguer - it's just making him help you get the ring - and leaves it up to the NPC how to do this. (Adjust that intro justification as appropriate for the NPC in question.) Presumably if the ring is still inside the fish he'd be able to give it to you, and if the ring is no longer inside the fish he'd tell you where it went, if he knows it.
This has a caveat - if for whatever reason, "helping you get this ring" is considered unreasonable by the NPC, then it wouldn't work. I'm assuming that as far as the NPC knows this is just a mundane ring of no special value other than its purchase price; in that case, the suggestion is obviously a fine way of getting the thing, and as a DM I wouldn't worry too much about the details of how the player phrased the request. On the other hand, if there's more secrets to be had about this ring, if the ring itself has some mind-control hold over the NPC or something else that would make the NPC consider giving it up fundamentally "unreasonable", it's possible that this wouldn't work (though if I were DMing it, I'd make sure that the attempt would reveal something useful/interesting about the next steps in the questline.)
I think the crux of what I need to ask is, "Can you help me retrieve the ring?"
However, before I cast the spell, I can always share and divulge information, thereby making him know and understand the possibilities of how he can help me.
Example: "I am looking for something important to me and my family. It is a ring and I happen to believe that the fish you have is responsible for eating the ring. It's possible you found the ring upon stuffing it, or it's still inside the fish. *Cast Suggestion* Can you please help me retrieve the ring?"
If you're a Hunter x Hunter fan, this strategy kind of reminds me of how Pakunoda asks certain questions before she extracts information from seeing their memories.
Just a suggestion: try to keep a suggestion spell limited to non-complex sentences.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
I think the crux of what I need to ask is, "Can you help me retrieve the ring?"
However, before I cast the spell, I can always share and divulge information, thereby making him know and understand the possibilities of how he can help me.
Example: "I am looking for something important to me and my family. It is a ring and I happen to believe that the fish you have is responsible for eating the ring. It's possible you found the ring upon stuffing it, or it's still inside the fish. *Cast Suggestion* Can you please help me retrieve the ring?"
Seems like you've nailed it! If I was the Dm and my player did this, I would allow it and also prepare for some RP between players because that's kind of a big deal especially if your fellow players didn't know about the ring before hand. I might even give out an Inspiration for that, and I never give out inspiration.
I would set it up with a dialogue. Talk to the NPC to get what information you can from them and if possible to get them to consider you a friendly fellow. Then, the suggestion could be worded more easily like ...
If I were to get the ring then I could help [you] or [these other folks] do this. Please help me.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
"You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Would that be considered two different activities, "turning yourself in" and then "being satisfied once locked up" or because to get to the end result of being locked up is turning yourself in, they would work together to accomplish the main goal?
"You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Would that be considered two different activities, "turning yourself in" and then "being satisfied once locked up" or because to get to the end result of being locked up is turning yourself in, they would work together to accomplish the main goal?
I don't think Suggestion can change someone's emotions or cause them to feel guilt or believe they did something they didn't do. It's possible you could convince them they had been mind controlled or something, but that's outside the effects of the spell -- you'd need to do that with ordinary words.
I wouldn't think a... True killer would ever consider turning themselves in, if they hadn't already been thinking about doing so. Like, if they're a villain, that's a hard no. That's the absolute last thing they want to do, fully unreasonable suggestion. If they're remorseful, sure.
"You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Would that be considered two different activities, "turning yourself in" and then "being satisfied once locked up" or because to get to the end result of being locked up is turning yourself in, they would work together to accomplish the main goal?
I don't think Suggestion can change someone's emotions or cause them to feel guilt or believe they did something they didn't do. It's possible you could convince them they had been mind controlled or something, but that's outside the effects of the spell -- you'd need to do that with ordinary words.
I wouldn't think a... True killer would ever consider turning themselves in, if they hadn't already been thinking about doing so. Like, if they're a villain, that's a hard no. That's the absolute last thing they want to do, fully unreasonable suggestion. If they're remorseful, sure.
The problem is the wording is very ambiguous as the guidance given is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell." So some people could take this to mean I can get them to do basically anything as long as it doesn't directly cause them physical harm. But I guess others think it has to be reasonable but what is reasonable? If you're fighting a creature is it reasonable to say that you suggest to the creature "you consider us friends and choose to leave the dungeon and go about your business"? You could say thats not a reasonable request if they were just fighting you and now are supposed to be your friend even though its in the creature's nature to fight humanoids that wander into its lair.
Maybe its just not a great spell if it depends on how the DM wants to interpret it and put greater limitations on it other than self harm. Just my thought but if thats the case i'd probably pass on it and just take charm.
"You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Would that be considered two different activities, "turning yourself in" and then "being satisfied once locked up" or because to get to the end result of being locked up is turning yourself in, they would work together to accomplish the main goal?
I don't think Suggestion can change someone's emotions or cause them to feel guilt or believe they did something they didn't do. It's possible you could convince them they had been mind controlled or something, but that's outside the effects of the spell -- you'd need to do that with ordinary words.
I wouldn't think a... True killer would ever consider turning themselves in, if they hadn't already been thinking about doing so. Like, if they're a villain, that's a hard no. That's the absolute last thing they want to do, fully unreasonable suggestion. If they're remorseful, sure.
The problem is the wording is very ambiguous as the guidance given is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell." So some people could take this to mean I can get them to do basically anything as long as it doesn't directly cause them physical harm. But I guess others think it has to be reasonable but what is reasonable? If you're fighting a creature is it reasonable to say that you suggest to the creature "you consider us friends and choose to leave the dungeon and go about your business"? You could say thats not a reasonable request if they were just fighting you and now are supposed to be your friend even though its in the creature's nature to fight humanoids that wander into its lair.
Maybe its just not a great spell if it depends on how the DM wants to interpret it and put greater limitations on it other than self harm. Just my thought but if thats the case i'd probably pass on it and just take charm.
There's no reason you need to include "we're friends" in the suggestion to go get some fresh air. And in fact, doing so would go beyond the spell's limits. But yes, the spell can absolutely end a fight -- or at least delay it until you meet again.
Take whatever spells you like. I'm not your dad. But going to prison for murder is obviously harmful. That's why it's a sentence, and not a prize on Wheel of Fortune. The idea behind telling you to make it sound reasonable is that you need to consider the target... Not that you get to determine what's reasonable by rewriting their brain. Here's an idea: "Deliver this sealed letter (that says "I'm a criminal, someone enchanted me to turn myself in, please lock me up") to my friend who works at the guard house. Don't worry, he's on our side."
"You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Would that be considered two different activities, "turning yourself in" and then "being satisfied once locked up" or because to get to the end result of being locked up is turning yourself in, they would work together to accomplish the main goal?
I don't think Suggestion can change someone's emotions or cause them to feel guilt or believe they did something they didn't do. It's possible you could convince them they had been mind controlled or something, but that's outside the effects of the spell -- you'd need to do that with ordinary words.
I wouldn't think a... True killer would ever consider turning themselves in, if they hadn't already been thinking about doing so. Like, if they're a villain, that's a hard no. That's the absolute last thing they want to do, fully unreasonable suggestion. If they're remorseful, sure.
The problem is the wording is very ambiguous as the guidance given is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell." So some people could take this to mean I can get them to do basically anything as long as it doesn't directly cause them physical harm. But I guess others think it has to be reasonable but what is reasonable? If you're fighting a creature is it reasonable to say that you suggest to the creature "you consider us friends and choose to leave the dungeon and go about your business"? You could say thats not a reasonable request if they were just fighting you and now are supposed to be your friend even though its in the creature's nature to fight humanoids that wander into its lair.
Maybe its just not a great spell if it depends on how the DM wants to interpret it and put greater limitations on it other than self harm. Just my thought but if thats the case i'd probably pass on it and just take charm.
There's no reason you need to include "we're friends" in the suggestion to go get some fresh air. And in fact, doing so would go beyond the spell's limits. But yes, the spell can absolutely end a fight -- or at least delay it until you meet again.
Take whatever spells you like. I'm not your dad. But going to prison for murder is obviously harmful. That's why it's a sentence, and not a prize on Wheel of Fortune. The idea behind telling you to make it sound reasonable is that you need to consider the target... Not that you get to determine what's reasonable by rewriting their brain. Here's an idea: "Deliver this sealed letter (that says "I'm a criminal, someone enchanted me to turn myself in, please lock me up") to my friend who works at the guard house. Don't worry, he's on our side."
Thats a good point. My suggestion was probably too complicated and aggressive, the main reason I made it that way was because I was trying to avoid bloodshed, since in your scenario the spell would end once the creature hands the letter over. Then they try to arrest the creature and likely get killed in the process, or I guess the creature just takes off. Either way it wouldn't imprison him but I guess the prison part doesn't matter really, they creature is far enough away at that point to not be a nuisance again likely.
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Context: My DM gave all of us background secrets at the start of our campaign. Mine was, I need to find a ring in order to gain an inheritance. I think I found the guy who has the ring in question, or at least the item the ring may be in (a fish).
I am a level 2 wizard, and when I level up to 3 and gain access to level 2 spells, I am thinking about preparing Suggestion, but since I have never used it before, I want to make sure I word it in a way that will help me with my goal of either the guy giving me the ring, giving me information on where the ring can be, or giving me the item I also suspect the ring may be in (a fish).
Would the following wording work or be allowed based on the spell's capability?
"I want you to give me the ring that was found in the fish and if you can't then you must give me information on where I can locate the ring. If you can't do such things because you are not aware of such ring, then give me the fish so I can search it myself."
Suggestion Spell:
The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it pursues the course of action you described to the best of its ability. The suggested course of action can continue for the entire duration. If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do.
You can also specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. For example, you might suggest that a knight give her warhorse to the first beggar she meets. If the condition isn’t met before the spell expires, the activity isn’t performed.
If you or any of your companions damage the target, the spell ends.
Thanks for the help!
This definitely depends on your DM... personally, I wouldn't allow a Suggestion with so many caveats tagged onto it. I feel like it would be too exploitable to be able to deliver a suggestion with multiple "If/then" steps. I would say try to simplify it to just... "Give me the fish and the ring that was inside it". It covers two possibilities while still fitting comfortably in a single, straightforward command.
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If I was the DM I wouldn't allow your wording to work. The spell allows you to make a suggestion, not program your target's mind. You don't get three different suggestions strung together with "if" clauses.
About the best you can do is something like "You want to give me a ring that looks like (insert description here). If your target has the ring and fails their save they give it to you. If they don't have it, but find it in a fish before the spell expires, they still give it to you.
<Insert clever signature here>
I'm a big fan of the suggestion: "Follow all my commands to the best of your ability without trying to subvert them."
Then you have a minion for the next eight hours.
Edit: Though that's probably more powerful than the spell was intended to be, even if technically following the rules as written.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Had to think about that one for a while. "without trying to subvert them" is highly iffy. It's a secondary clause, not part of a single course of action.
Even if the DM lets your suggestion stand, near as I can figure the first command you give that they follow satisfies the terms of the Suggestion spell, and the spell ends. You didn't say for how long they had to follow your commands, and if you did it would be adding yet another clause. You don't get to program your target's mind with "and" statements any more than you get to use "If/Then" statements.
<Insert clever signature here>
I'd try something like: "You know, that ring might be cursed. Let me dispose of it for you." Just sound reasonable (a caveat of the spell)
Rogue Shadow, the DM (and occasional) PC with schemes of inventive thinking
I also generally prefer to try and word it in the form of an actual suggestion instead of a command like I'm trying not to get screwed over by a Literal Genie.
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Talk to your DM.
There is plenty of disagreement about what exactly it means for the course of action to sound "reasonable". There's also vagueness of what it means for it to be "limited to a sentence or two" (since you can get arbitrarily long run-on sentences). So rather than getting an answer from this thread and then being disappointed when the DM does it differently, talk to them instead.
Here's how I personally would rule it as a DM, just so you can see the thought process, but again, caveat that your DM may think of it differently.
I'd interpret "any activity, as long as you make it sound reasonable" as basically the upper end of a persuasion check. If there is even the slightest chance that what you're saying would possibly convince the person to do as you want, then the suggestion works. If there's no chance that there's anything could ever persuade the person to do the thing, then the spell would not work. Maybe a bit like jedi mind-trick - these are not the droids you're looking for." But it's not full mind-control.
"Limited to a sentence or two" means the instructions should be pretty simple. So I probably wouldn't allow complicated clauses like "if-this-then-that-otherwise-this-but-if-something-else-then-something-else".
So in my game I probably wouldn't allow "I want you to give me the ring that was found in the fish and if you can't then you must give me information on where I can locate the ring. If you can't do such things because you are not aware of such ring, then give me the fish so I can search it myself."
But I probably would allow something like "It's really important, critical for the safety of you and me and this city, that I find the ring that was inside this fish. Help me get it." The actual command here is vaguer - it's just making him help you get the ring - and leaves it up to the NPC how to do this. (Adjust that intro justification as appropriate for the NPC in question.) Presumably if the ring is still inside the fish he'd be able to give it to you, and if the ring is no longer inside the fish he'd tell you where it went, if he knows it.
This has a caveat - if for whatever reason, "helping you get this ring" is considered unreasonable by the NPC, then it wouldn't work. I'm assuming that as far as the NPC knows this is just a mundane ring of no special value other than its purchase price; in that case, the suggestion is obviously a fine way of getting the thing, and as a DM I wouldn't worry too much about the details of how the player phrased the request. On the other hand, if there's more secrets to be had about this ring, if the ring itself has some mind-control hold over the NPC or something else that would make the NPC consider giving it up fundamentally "unreasonable", it's possible that this wouldn't work (though if I were DMing it, I'd make sure that the attempt would reveal something useful/interesting about the next steps in the questline.)
Wow, thanks for all the amazing replies!
I think the crux of what I need to ask is, "Can you help me retrieve the ring?"
However, before I cast the spell, I can always share and divulge information, thereby making him know and understand the possibilities of how he can help me.
Example: "I am looking for something important to me and my family. It is a ring and I happen to believe that the fish you have is responsible for eating the ring. It's possible you found the ring upon stuffing it, or it's still inside the fish. *Cast Suggestion* Can you please help me retrieve the ring?"
If you're a Hunter x Hunter fan, this strategy kind of reminds me of how Pakunoda asks certain questions before she extracts information from seeing their memories.
Just a suggestion: try to keep a suggestion spell limited to non-complex sentences.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Seems like you've nailed it! If I was the Dm and my player did this, I would allow it and also prepare for some RP between players because that's kind of a big deal especially if your fellow players didn't know about the ring before hand. I might even give out an Inspiration for that, and I never give out inspiration.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I would set it up with a dialogue. Talk to the NPC to get what information you can from them and if possible to get them to consider you a friendly fellow. Then, the suggestion could be worded more easily like ...
If I were to get the ring then I could help [you] or [these other folks] do this. Please help me.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
As a DM how would you feel about this Suggestion:
"You feel horrible guilt for the crime of murder and are compelled to travel as fast as you can to the nearest town and turn yourself in. You won't be satisfied until you are safely locked up and confined".
Would that be considered two different activities, "turning yourself in" and then "being satisfied once locked up" or because to get to the end result of being locked up is turning yourself in, they would work together to accomplish the main goal?
I don't think Suggestion can change someone's emotions or cause them to feel guilt or believe they did something they didn't do. It's possible you could convince them they had been mind controlled or something, but that's outside the effects of the spell -- you'd need to do that with ordinary words.
I wouldn't think a... True killer would ever consider turning themselves in, if they hadn't already been thinking about doing so. Like, if they're a villain, that's a hard no. That's the absolute last thing they want to do, fully unreasonable suggestion. If they're remorseful, sure.
The problem is the wording is very ambiguous as the guidance given is "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, throw itself onto a spear, immolate itself, or do some other obviously harmful act ends the spell." So some people could take this to mean I can get them to do basically anything as long as it doesn't directly cause them physical harm. But I guess others think it has to be reasonable but what is reasonable? If you're fighting a creature is it reasonable to say that you suggest to the creature "you consider us friends and choose to leave the dungeon and go about your business"? You could say thats not a reasonable request if they were just fighting you and now are supposed to be your friend even though its in the creature's nature to fight humanoids that wander into its lair.
Maybe its just not a great spell if it depends on how the DM wants to interpret it and put greater limitations on it other than self harm. Just my thought but if thats the case i'd probably pass on it and just take charm.
There's no reason you need to include "we're friends" in the suggestion to go get some fresh air. And in fact, doing so would go beyond the spell's limits. But yes, the spell can absolutely end a fight -- or at least delay it until you meet again.
Take whatever spells you like. I'm not your dad. But going to prison for murder is obviously harmful. That's why it's a sentence, and not a prize on Wheel of Fortune. The idea behind telling you to make it sound reasonable is that you need to consider the target... Not that you get to determine what's reasonable by rewriting their brain. Here's an idea: "Deliver this sealed letter (that says "I'm a criminal, someone enchanted me to turn myself in, please lock me up") to my friend who works at the guard house. Don't worry, he's on our side."
Thats a good point. My suggestion was probably too complicated and aggressive, the main reason I made it that way was because I was trying to avoid bloodshed, since in your scenario the spell would end once the creature hands the letter over. Then they try to arrest the creature and likely get killed in the process, or I guess the creature just takes off. Either way it wouldn't imprison him but I guess the prison part doesn't matter really, they creature is far enough away at that point to not be a nuisance again likely.