Been thinking about your DPR king, and it is resource dependent. Depending on the DM and the campaign, may not be a factor, but it CAN be.
You have 4 D12 superiority die per short rest. You can literally blow through all your superiority die in one round of combat and not have enough for your bonus action!
You're using a supply of bolts. Using 5 per turn, at what point does the DM say, "Hey, how many do you have left?" Again, this depends on the DM and the campaign.
What does that DPR king look like when he's NOT using a D12 precision attack die?
Out of curiosity, how many other classes put out that much DPR?
It's highly dependent on the time frame you're talking about (the above build runs out of superiority dice eventually, though in typical usage unlikely in less than one combat).
Been thinking about your DPR king, and it is resource dependent. Depending on the DM and the campaign, may not be a factor, but it CAN be.
You have 4 D12 superiority die per short rest. You can literally blow through all your superiority die in one round of combat and not have enough for your bonus action!
You're using a supply of bolts. Using 5 per turn, at what point does the DM say, "Hey, how many do you have left?" Again, this depends on the DM and the campaign.
What does that DPR king look like when he's NOT using a D12 precision attack die?
1. you have 6 die at that level not 4. Small distinction but makes a bigger difference in practice. You can blow through them sure...but the big upside of precision die is that you can use it after the roll. So you could be lucky and roll consistently high enough to beat the average AC for that level. Also the Archery style (+2 to hit with ranged) offsets the Sharpshooter -5 enough that its hardly an issue.
2. I have never met a DM who forces bolt counting but you could carry up to 100 bolts pretty easily for a very cheap price. Nothing RAW states that you need to have the bolts readily available so you can just have them. Also after a battle RAW you can spend 1 minute to collect half of them. Or you could ask your artificer friend to give you a Reapeating Hand Crossbow so you never have to worry about it and you get +1 to hit further offsetting your SS penalty.
Even with no precision die they are far outpacing a champion if you are using your 4 attacks and a BA attack formula:
Out of curiosity, how many other classes put out that much DPR?
It's highly dependent on the time frame you're talking about (the above build runs out of superiority dice eventually, though in typical usage unlikely in less than one combat).
I'd say it is very likely. The CBE BM posted above makes 5 attacks in a turn. Each attack can use a superiority die. It is feasible to use them all up before finishing their first turn.
Out of curiosity, how many other classes put out that much DPR?
It's highly dependent on the time frame you're talking about (the above build runs out of superiority dice eventually, though in typical usage unlikely in less than one combat).
I'd say it is very likely. The CBE BM posted above makes 5 attacks in a turn. Each attack can use a superiority die. It is feasible to use them all up before finishing their first turn.
Not at all... thats assuming they will miss every attack and choose to use the die which is very very very unlikely.
Been thinking about your DPR king, and it is resource dependent. Depending on the DM and the campaign, may not be a factor, but it CAN be.
You have 4 D12 superiority die per short rest. You can literally blow through all your superiority die in one round of combat and not have enough for your bonus action!
You're using a supply of bolts. Using 5 per turn, at what point does the DM say, "Hey, how many do you have left?" Again, this depends on the DM and the campaign.
What does that DPR king look like when he's NOT using a D12 precision attack die?
1. you have 6 die at that level not 4. Small distinction but makes a bigger difference in practice. You can blow through them sure...but the big upside of precision die is that you can use it after the roll. So you could be lucky and roll consistently high enough to beat the average AC for that level. Also the Archery style (+2 to hit with ranged) offsets the Sharpshooter -5 enough that its hardly an issue.
2. I have never met a DM who forces bolt counting but you could carry up to 100 bolts pretty easily for a very cheap price. Nothing RAW states that you need to have the bolts readily available so you can just have them. Also after a battle RAW you can spend 1 minute to collect half of them. Or you could ask your artificer friend to give you a Reapeating Hand Crossbow so you never have to worry about it and you get +1 to hit further offsetting your SS penalty.
Even with no precision die they are far outpacing a champion if you are using your 4 attacks and a BA attack formula:
Been thinking about your DPR king, and it is resource dependent. Depending on the DM and the campaign, may not be a factor, but it CAN be.
You have 4 D12 superiority die per short rest. You can literally blow through all your superiority die in one round of combat and not have enough for your bonus action!
You're using a supply of bolts. Using 5 per turn, at what point does the DM say, "Hey, how many do you have left?" Again, this depends on the DM and the campaign.
What does that DPR king look like when he's NOT using a D12 precision attack die?
1. you have 6 die at that level not 4. Small distinction but makes a bigger difference in practice. You can blow through them sure...but the big upside of precision die is that you can use it after the roll. So you could be lucky and roll consistently high enough to beat the average AC for that level. Also the Archery style (+2 to hit with ranged) offsets the Sharpshooter -5 enough that its hardly an issue.
2. I have never met a DM who forces bolt counting but you could carry up to 100 bolts pretty easily for a very cheap price. Nothing RAW states that you need to have the bolts readily available so you can just have them. Also after a battle RAW you can spend 1 minute to collect half of them. Or you could ask your artificer friend to give you a Reapeating Hand Crossbow so you never have to worry about it and you get +1 to hit further offsetting your SS penalty.
Even with no precision die they are far outpacing a champion if you are using your 4 attacks and a BA attack formula:
This is the REAL DPR king and its not even close...
Battlemaster with Sharpshooter and CBE with precision die.
You are simply blowing champion out of the water and its not even close.
Lol, OK. I never said the Champion was going to be a DPR king.
Out of curiosity, how many other classes put out that much DPR?
Zealot Barbarian can produce a close amount due to GWM and a very easy way to get ADV consistently (Reckless).
Sorlock with Quickening EB at this level could maintain a pretty close approximation with pretty easy access to ADV (Greater Invis, Shadow of Moil, Darkness/Devilsight, etc..)
Ranger/Druid with Conjure Animals (8 Wolves tear stuff up....literally)
So quite a few....
The ones that will struggle are Rogue, Monk, Artificer, and Rangers who forgo Conjure Animals. Clerics can but they use a TON of resources (3rd level spell- Spirit Guardians and Upcasted Spiritual weapon) but thats less viable due to the resource burn.
Overall I am of the opinion that fighter should be the DPR King and the best DPR king for fighter is battlemaster bar none. Even Samurai can NOVA something to oblivion but can only do it a few times per day.
The Barbarian in general destroys the fighter for DPS *at least* until level 11, and I suspect they're still ahead all the way until Level 20 (I would need to crunch the numbers). Having at-will advantage is huge.
Edit: A Battlemaster Archer with Precision Attack may be an exception.
Out of curiosity, how many other classes put out that much DPR?
It's highly dependent on the time frame you're talking about (the above build runs out of superiority dice eventually, though in typical usage unlikely in less than one combat).
I'd say it is very likely. The CBE BM posted above makes 5 attacks in a turn. Each attack can use a superiority die. It is feasible to use them all up before finishing their first turn.
Not at all... thats assuming they will miss every attack and choose to use the die which is very very very unlikely.
Exactly. Kerrec and others have been using 20 AC numbers (which is favorable to the Champion). If you want to compare class abilities to get a good picture of reality (which you'll normally be facing), someone else online claimed these are the average AC by challenge rating. Disclaimer: my subjective impression is these are about right, but I don't know how he came up with them.
Just curious. I entered the following into the calculator, to represent a Champion with the same build:
Attack Bonus: 7
Target AC: 20
Damage: 1d6 + 15
Crits on 18+
Number of Attacks 4
NO Elven accuracy
Bonus Action:
Attack Bonus: 7
# of attacks: 1
Damage: 1d6+15
Champion outperforms your DPR king for low AC, then starts to lag.
So the champion is not completely blown out of the water comparing build for build. It does lag behind because the Battlemaster gets to hit more often at higher target AC, BUT! That pool is limited, where the Champion has no limitation.
Why precision dice removed? I think everyone can say as a fact that the Champion will out-damage a Fighter using no subclass abilities that add damage. Have you given up defending improved critical? You're stuck on the ever so illusive Level 15.
No. You're not understanding. My goal was to use the SAME build, but with the Champion sub-class instead. To compare apples to apples. So the only difference between the CBE+SS Battlemaster and the CBE+SS Champion is:
Precision attack dice removed. (Champions don't get this)
+18 crit threat range (this is what Champions get)
So now this is TRULY apples to apples comparison, using someone's optimized Battlemaster build.
No. You're not understanding. My goal was to use the SAME build, but with the Champion sub-class instead. To compare apples to apples. So the only difference between the CBE+SS Battlemaster and the CBE+SS Champion is:
Precision attack dice removed. (Champions don't get this)
+18 crit threat range (this is what Champions get)
So now this is TRULY apples to apples comparison, using someone's optimized Battlemaster build.
So you remove Superiority Dice from the Battlemaster, but you don't remove Superior Critical from the Champion?
I don't see the relevance of comparing anything against CBE+SS, you're not highlighting the subclass, you're highlighting the power of those feats. This comparison seems to be middling between comparing like for like (this seems to have gone between a pretty unoptimised Champion and the Kerrec more recently comparing like for like). For this to be relevant you need to decide on your comparison method:
-Trying to get the most out of each subclass and see who comes out on top
-Create a series of 'builds' and see the relevant increase each subclass has on those builds
A Champion not exceeding a Battlemaster in any of these scenarios however does not mean that is a bad or terrible subclass, nor can it be definitively proven with math that it's undeniable damage increase is insignificant, as the target for significance is entirely subjective.
For the builds that consider themselves to be 'fair' in terms of optimising it has to be stated that choosing damage advantageous maneuvers is optimising for the Battle Master in this comparison, there are plenty of maneuvers that are worth taking that do not contribute anything to the individual Battle Master's damage. So you also have to consider opportunity cost for using your dice only in this way.
A personal note, I have no idea why such rampant comparisons with the Champion don't just assume that it's a Half Orc, if you're playing a Champion to do more damage it just makes no sense to not be a Half Orc.
Personal note two: These abstracted white room comparisons are... not actually very useful. Abstracted and averaged dice/increases have absolutely no bearing on real play. A player getting that 19 crit isn't receiving 0.35 of whatever extra damage at the time, they are receiving more dice that they can also then reroll or otherwise capitalise on. The Champion looks far worse in such broken down calculations, becuase they separate the analysis from the reality of actually playing the character and critting. Similarly you can't account for the amount of short rests any given game will have or how lucky a player is with their rolls, that last portion especially may seem superstitious and is unquantifiable, but that's the reality of playing a game that revolves around rolling dice.
No. You're not understanding. My goal was to use the SAME build, but with the Champion sub-class instead. To compare apples to apples. So the only difference between the CBE+SS Battlemaster and the CBE+SS Champion is:
Precision attack dice removed. (Champions don't get this)
+18 crit threat range (this is what Champions get)
So now this is TRULY apples to apples comparison, using someone's optimized Battlemaster build.
So you remove Superiority Dice from the Battlemaster, but you don't remove Superior Critical from the Champion?
No, he's removing superiority dice from the champion.
I'm still not sure why we're focusing on level 20, though. I really don't care about level 20, I care about level 3-10 as that's where most adventures actually are.
It's exactly what I would expect. The Champion does only marginally more damage if the Battlemaster runs out of Superiority Die, and the Battlemaster does a lot more if he's using Superiority Die. There's nothing really new learned there. I also suspect the assumption is they're using a D8 superiority die, and doesn't factor in abilities like Precision Attack or Commander's Strike. It would be impossible to obtain the necessary data to calculate those. Nor can it calculate indirect damage, like a trip attack causing the Fighter (and others in the party) to gain advantage on following attacks.
If a d8 superiority die is added, that's an average of 4.5 additional damage. If Commander's Strike turns a hit into a miss, ALL of that attack's damage is added from the die.
As for how that weighs over and entire session, it's impossible to know because it depends on a the campaign. Certainly if you're in a "gritty" campaign that forces you to go on marathons with no rests, the Champion becomes more appealing.
The thing is, the only thing Improved Critical (and Superior Critical) brings to the table is extra damage. When the Battle Master is bringing in huge battle field control, *and* damage, the Champion should be the damage king. And its far from it. Under the most common parameters, it's only marginally out-damaging a basic fighter.
You don't get it. I took the build from Optimus. Then I made the changes necessary to switch from Battlemaster to Champion. THAT'S IT.
And since you're so stuck on Improved Critical, here's the same exercise at level 5, ie: CBE+SS Battlemaster vs. CBE+SS Champion:
Battlemaster with Superiority Dice:
Battlemaster after he runs out of his 4 Superiority Dice (this is level 5, making 3 attacks per turn):
And here's the level 5 champion with Improved Critical:
Well of course a champion will be outdoing the Battlemaster at that point as you are basically comparing a subclass to a core fighter. While its ok to take it from the approach that you will have some benefit after the die are gone its also a bit misleading to say they will always perform better.
Based on averages from the DMG you will have combat that lasts approximately 3-5 rounds and have about 2-3 of these combats between short rests. The DMG assumes around 2 short rests per day giving the battlemaster 12 dice per day on average at level 5. Even with a meger +3 to hit based on these averages for AC at that CR range (13-15 AC) the battlemaster without using the precision die will still hit 2 or more of their shots 71%-51% of the time respectively.
So assuming you are hitting about half your shots without using die and you 100% do not want to miss at all (Nat 1's aside) you will use all your die in one combat. However, the damage output difference would likely still favor battlemaster due to the stark increase in the to hit vs. the potential critical damage add with a lower die if you use the SS + CBE build on a champion.
Overall this scenario favors a champion due to the longevity of the class....however nobody actually uses the 6-8 encounters per day calculation. The modules that WotC produces does not even utilize this formula. In AL the modules assume 1-2 encounters per long rest. Much more often it is 1-2 encounters per short rest which means the champion will likely underperform.
Like I have said Champion has its place but its mostly inferior in the long run to battlemaster as it can only closely approximate its damage output but battlemaster offers much much much more versatility on top of it.
Another way to look at this....your champion is barely doing better than a base fighter with no subclass.....
Ok guys, you're moving the goalposts. When I theory crafted my piddly TWF DEX Champion to try to illustrate how rolling To-Hit dice more often increases damage output at a faster pace for the Champion than a non-Champion sub-class, you compared it to "The KING of DPR".
Then it occurred to me. 5 attacks with a crossbow means a hand crossbow. A hand crossbow is a 1d6. Same as my TWF fighter. So what gave? I asked, and I got the answer. Sharpshooter. So I rebuilt the lvl 15+ CBE+SS Blademaster into a Champion to finally be able to compare apples to apples. And what do you know!!!? Same league. But woe is the Champion... joining that elite list of high DPR builds is still doesn't redeem the sub-class. If the Champion is not beating the Battlemaster, then the sub-class sucks.
And of course, SeanJP doesn't consider ALL of a sub-classes features, only the one part that he gives priority to. So I showed a level 5 BM vs a level 5 Champion. And I intentionally showed TWO curves for the Battlemaster, because Superiority Dice are a fixed resource and it doesn't make sense to compare using averages because the very use of averages assumes it's always there (and it's not). So you ignore the chart for the BM without superiority die completely.
Then SeanJP says a BM is more versatile, being able to do a lot more than just contribute Superiority Dice to doing damage compared to a Champion which can do nothing except do more damage. However, if that were true, then that first amazing chart would go away and you would have to use the second chart because you can't have it both ways. You can't have Superiority Dice to control the battlefield and make BM's versatile, AND use your superiority dice to dominate on damage to cherry pick that nice graph. I mean, pick one. Either the BM uses Superiority Dice to jack up damage, and gets nothing else for being a BM than increasing damage, or he doesn't get to jack up damage.
Then there's stuff like this:
However, the damage output difference would likely still favor battlemaster due to the stark increase in the to hit vs. the potential critical damage add with a lower die if you use the SS + CBE build on a champion.
What?? This is an apples to apples comparison. Same weapon. Same style. Same level. Same modifiers. Same feats. Same dice. Are you thinking of some other BM build so we're no longer comparing apples to apples like I was scorned for doing?
Based on averages from the DMG you will have combat that lasts approximately 3-5 rounds and have about 2-3 of these combats between short rests. The DMG assumes around 2 short rests per day giving the battlemaster 12 dice per day on average at level 5. Even with a meger +3 to hit based on these averages for AC at that CR range (13-15 AC) the battlemaster without using the precision die will still hit 2 or more of their shots 71%-51% of the time respectively.
This too... that DPR calculator doesn't factor in limited resources. When you add those D12 superiority dice to the inputs, it's averaging that use (in other words, you'd have to play thousands of combats to approach that average). So the calculator is basically saying, "A BM will never run out of Superiority Dice. There will always be enough short/long rests." It's a big gimme for the Battlemaster, but there's no easy way to do the math, or any consensus among us as to what is a reasonable XP budget for encounters. So there it is, good for you. The Champion has to ignore his strength because the calculator can't figure that out. (The strength being, his damage output is always on as long as he's got HP. Zero resources to manage.)
All this to say, you're cherry picking. Comparing a Champion to that CBE+SS Blademaster, the Champion is in the same ballpark and the difference is negligible. I mean, if I can build a champion that finally beats a Battlemaster in damage output, I'm not going to claim the Battlemaster is garbage.
Been thinking about your DPR king, and it is resource dependent. Depending on the DM and the campaign, may not be a factor, but it CAN be.
What does that DPR king look like when he's NOT using a D12 precision attack die?
It's highly dependent on the time frame you're talking about (the above build runs out of superiority dice eventually, though in typical usage unlikely in less than one combat).
1. you have 6 die at that level not 4. Small distinction but makes a bigger difference in practice. You can blow through them sure...but the big upside of precision die is that you can use it after the roll. So you could be lucky and roll consistently high enough to beat the average AC for that level. Also the Archery style (+2 to hit with ranged) offsets the Sharpshooter -5 enough that its hardly an issue.
2. I have never met a DM who forces bolt counting but you could carry up to 100 bolts pretty easily for a very cheap price. Nothing RAW states that you need to have the bolts readily available so you can just have them. Also after a battle RAW you can spend 1 minute to collect half of them. Or you could ask your artificer friend to give you a Reapeating Hand Crossbow so you never have to worry about it and you get +1 to hit further offsetting your SS penalty.
Even with no precision die they are far outpacing a champion if you are using your 4 attacks and a BA attack formula:
I'd say it is very likely. The CBE BM posted above makes 5 attacks in a turn. Each attack can use a superiority die. It is feasible to use them all up before finishing their first turn.
Not at all... thats assuming they will miss every attack and choose to use the die which is very very very unlikely.
If you don't mind me asking, what inputs are you using for this DPR king?
+7 to hit for sharpshooter (+12 normally with 20 Dex and Archery Style)
1d6+15 for damage
4 attacks
The Barbarian in general destroys the fighter for DPS *at least* until level 11, and I suspect they're still ahead all the way until Level 20 (I would need to crunch the numbers). Having at-will advantage is huge.
Edit: A Battlemaster Archer with Precision Attack may be an exception.
Exactly. Kerrec and others have been using 20 AC numbers (which is favorable to the Champion). If you want to compare class abilities to get a good picture of reality (which you'll normally be facing), someone else online claimed these are the average AC by challenge rating. Disclaimer: my subjective impression is these are about right, but I don't know how he came up with them.
Just curious. I entered the following into the calculator, to represent a Champion with the same build:
Champion outperforms your DPR king for low AC, then starts to lag.
So the champion is not completely blown out of the water comparing build for build. It does lag behind because the Battlemaster gets to hit more often at higher target AC, BUT! That pool is limited, where the Champion has no limitation.
Champion using the same build as HERE (supposedly). Only difference should be:
Why precision dice removed? I think everyone can say as a fact that the Champion will out-damage a Fighter using no subclass abilities that add damage. Have you given up defending improved critical? You're stuck on the ever so illusive Level 15.
No. You're not understanding. My goal was to use the SAME build, but with the Champion sub-class instead. To compare apples to apples. So the only difference between the CBE+SS Battlemaster and the CBE+SS Champion is:
So now this is TRULY apples to apples comparison, using someone's optimized Battlemaster build.
So you remove Superiority Dice from the Battlemaster, but you don't remove Superior Critical from the Champion?
I don't see the relevance of comparing anything against CBE+SS, you're not highlighting the subclass, you're highlighting the power of those feats. This comparison seems to be middling between comparing like for like (this seems to have gone between a pretty unoptimised Champion and the Kerrec more recently comparing like for like). For this to be relevant you need to decide on your comparison method:
-Trying to get the most out of each subclass and see who comes out on top
-Create a series of 'builds' and see the relevant increase each subclass has on those builds
A Champion not exceeding a Battlemaster in any of these scenarios however does not mean that is a bad or terrible subclass, nor can it be definitively proven with math that it's undeniable damage increase is insignificant, as the target for significance is entirely subjective.
For the builds that consider themselves to be 'fair' in terms of optimising it has to be stated that choosing damage advantageous maneuvers is optimising for the Battle Master in this comparison, there are plenty of maneuvers that are worth taking that do not contribute anything to the individual Battle Master's damage. So you also have to consider opportunity cost for using your dice only in this way.
A personal note, I have no idea why such rampant comparisons with the Champion don't just assume that it's a Half Orc, if you're playing a Champion to do more damage it just makes no sense to not be a Half Orc.
Personal note two: These abstracted white room comparisons are... not actually very useful. Abstracted and averaged dice/increases have absolutely no bearing on real play. A player getting that 19 crit isn't receiving 0.35 of whatever extra damage at the time, they are receiving more dice that they can also then reroll or otherwise capitalise on. The Champion looks far worse in such broken down calculations, becuase they separate the analysis from the reality of actually playing the character and critting. Similarly you can't account for the amount of short rests any given game will have or how lucky a player is with their rolls, that last portion especially may seem superstitious and is unquantifiable, but that's the reality of playing a game that revolves around rolling dice.
Subscribe to our channel for character builds, roleplay and DM tips: www.youtube.com/c/dorkforge
Interested in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything? Check out our playlist on Youtube
Please feel free to message us with any requests or build challenges!
No, he's removing superiority dice from the champion.
I'm still not sure why we're focusing on level 20, though. I really don't care about level 20, I care about level 3-10 as that's where most adventures actually are.
You don't get it. I took the build from Optimus. Then I made the changes necessary to switch from Battlemaster to Champion. THAT'S IT.
And since you're so stuck on Improved Critical, here's the same exercise at level 5, ie: CBE+SS Battlemaster vs. CBE+SS Champion:
Battlemaster with Superiority Dice:
Battlemaster after he runs out of his 4 Superiority Dice (this is level 5, making 3 attacks per turn):
And here's the level 5 champion with Improved Critical:
It's exactly what I would expect. The Champion does only marginally more damage if the Battlemaster runs out of Superiority Die, and the Battlemaster does a lot more if he's using Superiority Die. There's nothing really new learned there. I also suspect the assumption is they're using a D8 superiority die, and doesn't factor in abilities like Precision Attack or Commander's Strike. It would be impossible to obtain the necessary data to calculate those. Nor can it calculate indirect damage, like a trip attack causing the Fighter (and others in the party) to gain advantage on following attacks.
If a d8 superiority die is added, that's an average of 4.5 additional damage. If Commander's Strike turns a hit into a miss, ALL of that attack's damage is added from the die.
As for how that weighs over and entire session, it's impossible to know because it depends on a the campaign. Certainly if you're in a "gritty" campaign that forces you to go on marathons with no rests, the Champion becomes more appealing.
The thing is, the only thing Improved Critical (and Superior Critical) brings to the table is extra damage. When the Battle Master is bringing in huge battle field control, *and* damage, the Champion should be the damage king. And its far from it. Under the most common parameters, it's only marginally out-damaging a basic fighter.
Well of course a champion will be outdoing the Battlemaster at that point as you are basically comparing a subclass to a core fighter. While its ok to take it from the approach that you will have some benefit after the die are gone its also a bit misleading to say they will always perform better.
Based on averages from the DMG you will have combat that lasts approximately 3-5 rounds and have about 2-3 of these combats between short rests. The DMG assumes around 2 short rests per day giving the battlemaster 12 dice per day on average at level 5. Even with a meger +3 to hit based on these averages for AC at that CR range (13-15 AC) the battlemaster without using the precision die will still hit 2 or more of their shots 71%-51% of the time respectively.
So assuming you are hitting about half your shots without using die and you 100% do not want to miss at all (Nat 1's aside) you will use all your die in one combat. However, the damage output difference would likely still favor battlemaster due to the stark increase in the to hit vs. the potential critical damage add with a lower die if you use the SS + CBE build on a champion.
Overall this scenario favors a champion due to the longevity of the class....however nobody actually uses the 6-8 encounters per day calculation. The modules that WotC produces does not even utilize this formula. In AL the modules assume 1-2 encounters per long rest. Much more often it is 1-2 encounters per short rest which means the champion will likely underperform.
Like I have said Champion has its place but its mostly inferior in the long run to battlemaster as it can only closely approximate its damage output but battlemaster offers much much much more versatility on top of it.
Another way to look at this....your champion is barely doing better than a base fighter with no subclass.....
Ok guys, you're moving the goalposts. When I theory crafted my piddly TWF DEX Champion to try to illustrate how rolling To-Hit dice more often increases damage output at a faster pace for the Champion than a non-Champion sub-class, you compared it to "The KING of DPR".
I am not a min-maxer, which is why I didn't make any effort to find an equivalent Battlemaster build to compare to my TWF Dex Champion. I sat back after seeing that DPR in comparison to the piddly DPR I was putting out as a TWF, and chewed on it a bit. I even asked what other classes put out that kind of DPR. Answer: An elite group of consisting of Zealong Barbarian, Sorlock, Wizard/Bard w/ Animate Objects and Ranger/Druid with Conjure Animals.
Then it occurred to me. 5 attacks with a crossbow means a hand crossbow. A hand crossbow is a 1d6. Same as my TWF fighter. So what gave? I asked, and I got the answer. Sharpshooter. So I rebuilt the lvl 15+ CBE+SS Blademaster into a Champion to finally be able to compare apples to apples. And what do you know!!!? Same league. But woe is the Champion... joining that elite list of high DPR builds is still doesn't redeem the sub-class. If the Champion is not beating the Battlemaster, then the sub-class sucks.
And of course, SeanJP doesn't consider ALL of a sub-classes features, only the one part that he gives priority to. So I showed a level 5 BM vs a level 5 Champion. And I intentionally showed TWO curves for the Battlemaster, because Superiority Dice are a fixed resource and it doesn't make sense to compare using averages because the very use of averages assumes it's always there (and it's not). So you ignore the chart for the BM without superiority die completely.
Then SeanJP says a BM is more versatile, being able to do a lot more than just contribute Superiority Dice to doing damage compared to a Champion which can do nothing except do more damage. However, if that were true, then that first amazing chart would go away and you would have to use the second chart because you can't have it both ways. You can't have Superiority Dice to control the battlefield and make BM's versatile, AND use your superiority dice to dominate on damage to cherry pick that nice graph. I mean, pick one. Either the BM uses Superiority Dice to jack up damage, and gets nothing else for being a BM than increasing damage, or he doesn't get to jack up damage.
Then there's stuff like this:
However, the damage output difference would likely still favor battlemaster due to the stark increase in the to hit vs. the potential critical damage add with a lower die if you use the SS + CBE build on a champion.
What?? This is an apples to apples comparison. Same weapon. Same style. Same level. Same modifiers. Same feats. Same dice. Are you thinking of some other BM build so we're no longer comparing apples to apples like I was scorned for doing?
Based on averages from the DMG you will have combat that lasts approximately 3-5 rounds and have about 2-3 of these combats between short rests. The DMG assumes around 2 short rests per day giving the battlemaster 12 dice per day on average at level 5. Even with a meger +3 to hit based on these averages for AC at that CR range (13-15 AC) the battlemaster without using the precision die will still hit 2 or more of their shots 71%-51% of the time respectively.
This too... that DPR calculator doesn't factor in limited resources. When you add those D12 superiority dice to the inputs, it's averaging that use (in other words, you'd have to play thousands of combats to approach that average). So the calculator is basically saying, "A BM will never run out of Superiority Dice. There will always be enough short/long rests." It's a big gimme for the Battlemaster, but there's no easy way to do the math, or any consensus among us as to what is a reasonable XP budget for encounters. So there it is, good for you. The Champion has to ignore his strength because the calculator can't figure that out. (The strength being, his damage output is always on as long as he's got HP. Zero resources to manage.)
All this to say, you're cherry picking. Comparing a Champion to that CBE+SS Blademaster, the Champion is in the same ballpark and the difference is negligible. I mean, if I can build a champion that finally beats a Battlemaster in damage output, I'm not going to claim the Battlemaster is garbage.