Mind Sliver only targets Saving Throws, whereas Hex only targets Ability Checks. Normally Mind Sliver will be more useful, but in this instance, Mind Sliver doesn't give you any boost when grappling because grappling is an ability check, not a saving throw.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Monk. They make a great class for a wrestler, especially if you take some levels in Rogue for expertise in Athletics. They've also got an unarmored defense and they do a lot of damage with unarmed strikes. The way of the Astral Self has an ability at level 3 that lets you use your Wisdom instead of your Strength for an Athletics check.
If you take three levels in Rogue, the new subclass of the Soulknife can add a D8 (or a D10 or D12 at higher levels) to a failed skill check which should apply to a failed attempt to grapple. The Soulknife Rogue gets a number of these dice equal to twice his proficiency modifier, and they're only expended if they turn a fail into a success.
I can see Rogue but I am failing to see why Monk is a good choice here? What advantages do you see?
It does free you from needing a fighting style, and you can use strength with martial arts. The downfall is that you'd want at least a 14 in dex, high wisdom to get your AC up, high strength for damage and lifting (or something like [magicitem]Gauntlets of Ogre Strength[/spell], and decent constitution for HP. The d8 won't help as much in that capacity, you won't be able to use a shield to augment your AC and will be reliant on magic items to help otherwise. You won't have rage and will be working on avoiding attacks and staying out of range to stay up. It will be a very MAD endeavor. It will have better wisdom saves than a barb/fighter starting point, but will lack in the constitution saves until monk 14.
It's not a bad idea for a wrestler concept, but I just don't see it for the specific build in question. Being able to drop the strength aspect makes it much more viable, but then you are relying on other aspects to do the heavy lifting in the heavy lifting department, forcing those aspects to take more of a priority.
Edit. A loxodon could make an interesting starting point with the con based AC, the trunk for grappling and other aspects.
With the new UA fighting style it does seem like a hefty cost vs. fighter which may already give you some benefit (Action Surge is very good for grappler builds!).
One thing I could see with the monk dip is a BA unarmed attack which is nice. Grapple/prone then punch fairly consistently.
Which would mean that you wouldn't need the fighting style (or could switch it up) and wouldn't need Tavern Brawler for anything besides improvised weapon proficiency. Still, the fighting style does bring the extra damage and does provide the earlier upgrade to d8 damage. If you're already going fighter, it definitely makes sense to go that way unless you wanted to get something like Blind Fighting, which might be the only other valid option if you go unarmored defense. Getting some brass knuckles or a dagger for a shiv could make dueling an option and interception would be ok with a weapon. Going fighter does open up extra feats, meaning Tavern Brawler can sneak in there decent.
What would be interesting would be Kensei. They could be holding a weapon to activate Agile Parry and whatever other shenanigans that might be added in (sneak attack and dueling fighting style, for example) and the rest of the options could all be grapples and unarmed attacks. That would help lessen the reliance on dex and wisdom for all of your AC, effectively giving you a +4 to those stats for AC purposes. It's still better as a high rolled stats build if lifting capacity is a factor in the build.
Getting to stunning strike would be a cool mechanical feature for a signature style move. Like you say, it might be a better dip option than main component though for the OPs vision. The exception would be if the OP would be ok with a 12 strength for lifting purposes, then dex for attack and AC, and medium con and wisdom (say 16-18ish) for AC and HP. Intellect and Charisma would be down, meaning that the performance checks would be down for the actual showmanship side of the character concept, if that's a big concern for the OP. Granted, you're pretty much looking at something like that any way with a barbarian build unless you're dumping intelligence and wisdom.
now I am starting to think just straight Fighter (Rune Knight)... might be the best option...I feel adding Bard (level 3, maybe 6) just for flair, being able to cast spells like Dancing Lights, and Silent Image (for entrance theme), Unseen Servant (for my valet), Faerie Fire (when pointing at the enemy like Hulk Hogan), Mending (to fix all the tables and chairs I break)... Can get Expertise at 3rd... (think that would stack with Brawny Feat, but not 100% on that)...
Goliath gives free Athletics... Rune Knight gives Enlarge basically, and Adv on Str checks (saves),... You can get double prof bonus on Athletics with Brawny feat... Fighter also gives fighting style of Unarmed Fighting And Fighter gives all the feats (Athlete, Brawny, Crusher, Dual Wielder, Mage Slayer, Mobile, Tavern Brawler, War Caster - NEED TO PRIORITIZE and see which might not be needed still)...
So, what do you all think? Go Bard/Fighter split, or stick straight Fighter for more attacks and ASI???
now I am starting to think just straight Fighter (Rune Knight)... might be the best option...I feel adding Bard (level 3, maybe 6) just for flair, being able to cast spells like Dancing Lights, and Silent Image (for entrance theme), Unseen Servant (for my valet), Faerie Fire (when pointing at the enemy like Hulk Hogan), Mending (to fix all the tables and chairs I break)... Can get Expertise at 3rd... (think that would stack with Brawny Feat, but not 100% on that)...
Goliath gives free Athletics... Rune Knight gives Enlarge basically, and Adv on Str checks (saves),... You can get double prof bonus on Athletics with Brawny feat... Fighter also gives fighting style of Unarmed Fighting And Fighter gives all the feats (Athlete, Brawny, Crusher, Dual Wielder, Mage Slayer, Mobile, Tavern Brawler, War Caster - NEED TO PRIORITIZE and see which might not be needed still)...
So, what do you all think? Go Bard/Fighter split, or stick straight Fighter for more attacks and ASI???
It is so confusing... ~Mad
There is a lot of ways to crack this nut and how you want to do it is up to you.
Rune Knight is not a bad way of doing it as the subclass provides a LOT of utility and help beyond just grappling. Storm Rune is already pretty close to overtuned as they can impose DIS on a SAVING THROW (something that is very hard to do....sorcerer has to spend 3 SP and give up another metamagic known to do it once when they cast the spell) as a reaction 10 times per short rest.
The real funny thing is that Rune Knight has a lot of features that straight up steal from barbarian mechanically:
Giant Might = Rage in that you get ADV on STR checks/saving throws and extra damage
Hill Rune = Rage in that you get B/P/S resistance
Frost Rune + Giant Might would give you ADV and a +2 to the ATH check.
I still think getting expertise would be a cornerstone of this build but you can get it via feat now so thats easy enough.
With the wording would you be able to stack Brawny: (UA FEAT) You become stronger, gaining the following benefits: Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20. You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it. You count as if you were one size larger for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity.
AND
Expertise (Bard Class Feature)
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
By wording I am not sure... but seems like they are different bonuses, and therefor, stackable??? I do like the flavor of adding Bard, but if the party make-up is weak, then splitting to multiclass might be not advisable...
With the wording would you be able to stack Brawny: (UA FEAT) You become stronger, gaining the following benefits: Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20. You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it. You count as if you were one size larger for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity.
AND
Expertise (Bard Class Feature)
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
By wording I am not sure... but seems like they are different bonuses, and therefor, stackable??? I do like the flavor of adding Bard, but if the party make-up is weak, then splitting to multiclass might be not advisable...
~Mad
It would depend on how the DM interpreted it. If they interpret both to mean that it's just double your proficiency bonus, then no. If they read it as expertise doubles it and then Brawny sees that as the new proficiency bonus to double, then yes.
I would see it as the first one, since your proficiency bonus isn't affected by expertise. It remains +2 for a sub level 5 character, regardless of the number of skills that have expertise. Expertise only doubles the proficiency bonus that is applied to that skill. Brawny does the same thing. Thus, it's a bit like an AC calculation, you have a starting point and then adjust it from there. If you have multiple, you choose between them.
Cool.... guess I was just hoping. Lol. Thanks for the input... I will have to see how the rest of the party make up is, then decide how to build... I am HEAVILY leaning to Bard dip,... just for RP stuff... meta factors will be the determining issues.
With the wording would you be able to stack Brawny: (UA FEAT) You become stronger, gaining the following benefits: Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20. You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it. You count as if you were one size larger for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity.
AND
Expertise (Bard Class Feature)
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
By wording I am not sure... but seems like they are different bonuses, and therefor, stackable??? I do like the flavor of adding Bard, but if the party make-up is weak, then splitting to multiclass might be not advisable...
1. Take first level in fighter, with the unarmed fighting fighting style from Tasha's. Max out strength. Use Money instead of equipment to purchase the highest armor you can. Ignore weapons, both hands empty.
2. take 2 levels in monk. You can actually ignore wisdom for this build. The way martial arts is worded, this means you get 2 unarmed strikes that are d8s per turn at level 2.
3. take all remaining levels in fighter (champion subclass)
1. Take first level in fighter, with the unarmed fighting fighting style from Tasha's. Max out strength. Use Money instead of equipment to purchase the highest armor you can. Ignore weapons, both hands empty.
2. take 2 levels in monk. You can actually ignore wisdom for this build. The way martial arts is worded, this means you get 2 unarmed strikes that are d8s per turn at level 2.
3. take all remaining levels in fighter (champion subclass)
I like all this except go Rune Knight to get large
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Which would mean that you wouldn't need the fighting style (or could switch it up) and wouldn't need Tavern Brawler for anything besides improvised weapon proficiency. Still, the fighting style does bring the extra damage and does provide the earlier upgrade to d8 damage. If you're already going fighter, it definitely makes sense to go that way unless you wanted to get something like Blind Fighting, which might be the only other valid option if you go unarmored defense. Getting some brass knuckles or a dagger for a shiv could make dueling an option and interception would be ok with a weapon. Going fighter does open up extra feats, meaning Tavern Brawler can sneak in there decent.
What would be interesting would be Kensei. They could be holding a weapon to activate Agile Parry and whatever other shenanigans that might be added in (sneak attack and dueling fighting style, for example) and the rest of the options could all be grapples and unarmed attacks. That would help lessen the reliance on dex and wisdom for all of your AC, effectively giving you a +4 to those stats for AC purposes. It's still better as a high rolled stats build if lifting capacity is a factor in the build.
Getting to stunning strike would be a cool mechanical feature for a signature style move. Like you say, it might be a better dip option than main component though for the OPs vision. The exception would be if the OP would be ok with a 12 strength for lifting purposes, then dex for attack and AC, and medium con and wisdom (say 16-18ish) for AC and HP. Intellect and Charisma would be down, meaning that the performance checks would be down for the actual showmanship side of the character concept, if that's a big concern for the OP. Granted, you're pretty much looking at something like that any way with a barbarian build unless you're dumping intelligence and wisdom.
now I am starting to think just straight Fighter (Rune Knight)... might be the best option...I feel adding Bard (level 3, maybe 6) just for flair, being able to cast spells like Dancing Lights, and Silent Image (for entrance theme), Unseen Servant (for my valet), Faerie Fire (when pointing at the enemy like Hulk Hogan), Mending (to fix all the tables and chairs I break)... Can get Expertise at 3rd... (think that would stack with Brawny Feat, but not 100% on that)...
Goliath gives free Athletics...
Rune Knight gives Enlarge basically, and Adv on Str checks (saves),...
You can get double prof bonus on Athletics with Brawny feat...
Fighter also gives fighting style of Unarmed Fighting
And Fighter gives all the feats (Athlete, Brawny, Crusher, Dual Wielder, Mage Slayer, Mobile, Tavern Brawler, War Caster - NEED TO PRIORITIZE and see which might not be needed still)...
So, what do you all think? Go Bard/Fighter split, or stick straight Fighter for more attacks and ASI???
It is so confusing...
~Mad
There is a lot of ways to crack this nut and how you want to do it is up to you.
Rune Knight is not a bad way of doing it as the subclass provides a LOT of utility and help beyond just grappling. Storm Rune is already pretty close to overtuned as they can impose DIS on a SAVING THROW (something that is very hard to do....sorcerer has to spend 3 SP and give up another metamagic known to do it once when they cast the spell) as a reaction 10 times per short rest.
The real funny thing is that Rune Knight has a lot of features that straight up steal from barbarian mechanically:
Giant Might = Rage in that you get ADV on STR checks/saving throws and extra damage
Hill Rune = Rage in that you get B/P/S resistance
Frost Rune + Giant Might would give you ADV and a +2 to the ATH check.
I still think getting expertise would be a cornerstone of this build but you can get it via feat now so thats easy enough.
With the wording would you be able to stack
Brawny: (UA FEAT)
You become stronger, gaining the following benefits:
Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
You count as if you were one size larger for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity.
AND
Expertise (Bard Class Feature)
At 3rd level, choose two of your skill proficiencies. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
By wording I am not sure... but seems like they are different bonuses, and therefor, stackable???
I do like the flavor of adding Bard, but if the party make-up is weak, then splitting to multiclass might be not advisable...
~Mad
It would depend on how the DM interpreted it. If they interpret both to mean that it's just double your proficiency bonus, then no. If they read it as expertise doubles it and then Brawny sees that as the new proficiency bonus to double, then yes.
I would see it as the first one, since your proficiency bonus isn't affected by expertise. It remains +2 for a sub level 5 character, regardless of the number of skills that have expertise. Expertise only doubles the proficiency bonus that is applied to that skill. Brawny does the same thing. Thus, it's a bit like an AC calculation, you have a starting point and then adjust it from there. If you have multiple, you choose between them.
Cool.... guess I was just hoping. Lol.
Thanks for the input... I will have to see how the rest of the party make up is, then decide how to build... I am HEAVILY leaning to Bard dip,... just for RP stuff... meta factors will be the determining issues.
~Mad
Unfortunately I do not believe this stacks.
May I present "Thag" (half-orc race)
1. Take first level in fighter, with the unarmed fighting fighting style from Tasha's. Max out strength. Use Money instead of equipment to purchase the highest armor you can. Ignore weapons, both hands empty.
2. take 2 levels in monk. You can actually ignore wisdom for this build. The way martial arts is worded, this means you get 2 unarmed strikes that are d8s per turn at level 2.
3. take all remaining levels in fighter (champion subclass)
Proud poster on the Create a World thread
I like all this except go Rune Knight to get large