Even ignoring everything else a BH gives you, the potential for Cruelty mutagen at 11 to give you an extra Bonus Action attack shouldn't be overlooked, for the boost it gives to GWM or Sharpshooter builds. Yes, a Fighter picks up those extra attacks in a more straightforward way... but for any number of reasons, it's always nice to see a way to get to 3 attacks in more martial class kits. Considering that you aren't picking up Cruelty in a vacuum, but could also use Potency and/or Precision alongside, I think its puzzling to assume that a pure BH is going to do less than a pure fighter if both are built to lean into GWM.
A GWM-Piercer Pike user, as a BH (Mutant) 20 vs a Fighter (Battlemaster) 20 vs a Barbarian (Zealot) 20:
BH:
24 Strength
three attacks/round
Crits 19-20
Pike does 1d10+17 base, +8 to hit
1d10 bonus elemental damage available on each hit
AC likely to be around 17 or 18
So 84ish avg. damage if all three hit, and an extra 5% chance that each is a crit for an extra avg. 11.
Barbarian:
24 Strength
two attacks/round
Crits 20
Pike does 1d10+21 base (while raging), +8 to hit
1d6+10 bonus radiant/necrotic damage available on each hit against a single target each round
AC likely to be around 18
So 80ish avg. damage if both hit, LOWER than BH
Fighter:
20 strength
four attacks/round
Crits 20
Pike does 1d10+15 base, +6 to hit
six 1d12 bonus damage dice available to be used per short rest, one per hit.
AC likely to be around 18
So 82ish avg. damage if all four hit, plus another 6.5ish per superiority die you burn (but you'll run out in a round or two if you use them constantly). -2 to hit vs. both of the above, so a bit less likely that all four attacks are really hitting, those superiority dice can mitigate (but then, don't do bonus damage).
But, can't overlook that there's a couple of Action Surge rounds to throw around, potentially doubling this DPR in early rounds in key fights!
I dunno, looking at that napkin math... the BH is clearly doing MORE damage than the Barbarian or the Fighter, or at least more damage more consistently? There are certainly other reasons you might prefer the Barbarian over the BH, or you might build the BH to use some of the other flexible parts of its crit and not stack Potency/Cruelty/Precision... but looking at napkin math, the BH certainly is no slouch in the damage department.
We were talking level 8 so this is a bit outside the conversation.
Ah, that wasn't clear to me. I'm sure the shift of Fighter vs Barbarian vs. BH is different at different tiers... but talking about GWM in Tier 2 feels disingenuous to me in the first place, because the -5 to hit malus is just too big a chunk of your to-hit before T3 to reliably use in most combats.
A big part of Optimus arguing against Blood Hunter being competent seems to be the assumption that the Battlemaster is using Precision Attack on every single GWM swing to offset the hit penalty. That seems hella dubious to me outside of short "PLEASE DIE NOW THANK YOU" burst fights, but that's where the math is. Personally I'd rather go with Fey-Touched to gain Hex/Hunter's Mark for dire combats. Even if you're not a Profane Soul able to cast the spell yourself, having something to do with your concentration that stacks up with your Rite damage is a good way to get more mileage out of one's blood hunter.
A big part of Optimus arguing against Blood Hunter being competent seems to be the assumption that the Battlemaster is using Precision Attack on every single GWM swing to offset the hit penalty. That seems hella dubious to me outside of short "PLEASE DIE NOW THANK YOU" burst fights, but that's where the math is. Personally I'd rather go with Fey-Touched to gain Hex/Hunter's Mark for dire combats. Even if you're not a Profane Soul able to cast the spell yourself, having something to do with your concentration that stacks up with your Rite damage is a good way to get more mileage out of one's blood hunter.
They can wait to see what they roll before deciding to use and get a handful of uses per Short Rest. Its not unreasonable to allow for it when looking at averages as you can expect to be able to use them at least 1-2 times a fight. Also if you Trip attack first you have a shot to get ADV on the rest of the attacks and add damage to the roll so theres that.
Even ignoring everything else a BH gives you, the potential for Cruelty mutagen at 11 to give you an extra Bonus Action attack shouldn't be overlooked, for the boost it gives to GWM or Sharpshooter builds. Yes, a Fighter picks up those extra attacks in a more straightforward way... but for any number of reasons, it's always nice to see a way to get to 3 attacks in more martial class kits. Considering that you aren't picking up Cruelty in a vacuum, but could also use Potency and/or Precision alongside, I think its puzzling to assume that a pure BH is going to do less than a pure fighter if both are built to lean into GWM.
A GWM-Piercer Pike user, as a BH (Mutant) 20 vs a Fighter (Battlemaster) 20 vs a Barbarian (Zealot) 20:
BH:
24 Strength
three attacks/round
Crits 19-20
Pike does 1d10+17 base, +8 to hit
1d10 bonus elemental damage available on each hit
AC likely to be around 17 or 18
So 84ish avg. damage if all three hit, and an extra 5% chance that each is a crit for an extra avg. 11.
Barbarian:
24 Strength
two attacks/round
Crits 20
Pike does 1d10+21 base (while raging), +8 to hit
1d6+10 bonus radiant/necrotic damage available on each hit against a single target each round
AC likely to be around 18
So 80ish avg. damage if both hit, LOWER than BH
Fighter:
20 strength
four attacks/round
Crits 20
Pike does 1d10+15 base, +6 to hit
six 1d12 bonus damage dice available to be used per short rest, one per hit.
AC likely to be around 18
So 82ish avg. damage if all four hit, plus another 6.5ish per superiority die you burn (but you'll run out in a round or two if you use them constantly). -2 to hit vs. both of the above, so a bit less likely that all four attacks are really hitting, those superiority dice can mitigate (but then, don't do bonus damage).
But, can't overlook that there's a couple of Action Surge rounds to throw around, potentially doubling this DPR in early rounds in key fights!
I dunno, looking at that napkin math... the BH is clearly doing MORE damage than the Barbarian or the Fighter, or at least more damage more consistently? There are certainly other reasons you might prefer the Barbarian over the BH, or you might build the BH to use some of the other flexible parts of its crit and not stack Potency/Cruelty/Precision... but looking at napkin math, the BH certainly is no slouch in the damage department.
This is why napkin math = bad math.
AC and changes to mitigate to hit is more important for DPR talks.
BH does not get a way to off set the penalty.
Fighter gets precision die which is an eventual d12 to the attack roll making hits more reliable.
Barbarian gets at will ADV so they will pull ahead as well. Also you forgot that it is +4 damage for rage so its actually +19 damage per hit.
You mention them but I feel you underestimate how much that increases the damage
You are also not including the PAM Bonus Action attack on both the fighter and barb so add another 1d4+15 damage for the fighter and 1d4+19 damage for barbarian (+5 STR +10 GWM + 4 Rage)
That's true, and I'd be okay with treating that pool of 6 potential to-hit bonuses as "kind of" balancing out the Fighter being -2 to compared to the Barbarian and BH. But even with that, the Fighter is left doing slightly less DPR than BH.
Ultimately, 1 or 2 dpr one way the other doesn't matter at these high tiers. I'd lump all three of these classes into the same general tier of great GWM users, and there's several multiclass mixes that belong there as well.
At level 8, Fighter is probably the only class that can realistically pull off having taken GWM, but I maintain it won't be likely to be real useful except against cherry-picked low-AC high-HP monsters until 12+, at which point any class can have picked it.
A Battle Master can do that exactly six times per short rest before it falls off. And a Polearm Muenster build means the Blood Hunter doesn't need Cruelty to gain a bonus action attack and can use a different mutagen, instead.
Trust me, Optimus. I am perfectly aware of how ridiculously busted Superiority is. One of my absolute fondest dreams for any perspective 5.5e or 6e is for Superiority to be broadened out to all martial classes. But stating that the blood hunter is absolutely terrible horrible no-good very bad awful because it doesn't have Superiority is ridiculous. Classes have been holding their own against Battlemasters since the game dropped, ne?
A Battle Master can do that exactly six times per short rest before it falls off. And a Polearm Muenster build means the Blood Hunter doesn't need Cruelty to gain a bonus action attack and can use a different mutagen, instead.
Trust me, Optimus. I am perfectly aware of how ridiculously busted Superiority is. One of my absolute fondest dreams for any perspective 5.5e or 6e is for Superiority to be broadened out to all martial classes. But stating that the blood hunter is absolutely terrible horrible no-good very bad awful because it doesn't have Superiority is ridiculous. Classes have been holding their own against Battlemasters since the game dropped, ne?
OH I agree.
Just saying that its not that much of a drop off for BH the only real issue is the heavy armor thing but sounds like some subclasses can deal with the AC issue.
Yeah, I lost sight of the forest there, Cruelty is good for giving a Bonus attack to a sword n board user, but redundant for a Pike user with access to PAM. Good catch. Though, even a Pike user might have competing feat uses, it still has applications.
Yeah, I lost sight of the forest there, Cruelty is good for giving a Bonus attack to a sword n board user, but redundant for a Pike user with access to PAM. Good catch. Though, even a Pike user might have competing feat uses, it still has applications.
I wouldn't say so, no, other than not cheesing your level 1 to pick up free heavy armor proficiency. Medium armor is a tough thing to build for, it looks like you have either a +2 Dex ASI in your future (to have a maximum of 17 AC in Half Plate), or take Heavily Armored as your next feat (to bump Strength to 20 and have a maximum 18 AC in Plate). A 12 Dex wasn't necessary if you end up wearing Heavy Armor, but making Dex saves and checks at a +1 instead of a -1 is welcome in a variety of situations, especially since you'll have disadvantage on those saves from Potency and need all the help you can get with them. You only have room for one more +1 Str feat, so if you do take Heavily Armored, then something like Slasher or Heavy Armor Master will be wasted, so plan accordingly. Honestly, leaving your Strength at 19 is optimal from a level 20 perspective, but in practice you want to bump it to unmodified 20 at some point around level 11 so that you're at 24 Strength from level 11 onwards. All that's really suffered, due to your stat spread, is that your Intelligence is always going to be a little bit lower than some other BH's might have built for, which means your save-based maledicts (Binding, amplified Agony, Corrosion) won't be quite as effective and your Dark Augmentation less potent of a buff to prop up your Dex save. But then again, there's always Sagacity for that, if you can spare the mutagen.
In your future, I might suggest:
BH 8: +2 Dexterity
BH 12: Slasher or Skill Expert (Str)
BH 16: a +1 Int feat like Shadow Touched, Fey Touched, Telekinetic, or Telepathic
BH 19: +2 Int (or, if you'll always have a +5 Sagacity consumed as one of your three active mutagens, another +1 Int feat from above)
Even ignoring everything else a BH gives you, the potential for Cruelty mutagen at 11 to give you an extra Bonus Action attack shouldn't be overlooked, for the boost it gives to GWM or Sharpshooter builds. Yes, a Fighter picks up those extra attacks in a more straightforward way... but for any number of reasons, it's always nice to see a way to get to 3 attacks in more martial class kits. Considering that you aren't picking up Cruelty in a vacuum, but could also use Potency and/or Precision alongside, I think its puzzling to assume that a pure BH is going to do less than a pure fighter if both are built to lean into GWM.
A GWM-Piercer Pike user, as a BH (Mutant) 20 vs a Fighter (Battlemaster) 20 vs a Barbarian (Zealot) 20:
I dunno, looking at that napkin math... the BH is clearly doing MORE damage than the Barbarian or the Fighter, or at least more damage more consistently? There are certainly other reasons you might prefer the Barbarian over the BH, or you might build the BH to use some of the other flexible parts of its crit and not stack Potency/Cruelty/Precision... but looking at napkin math, the BH certainly is no slouch in the damage department.
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Ah, that wasn't clear to me. I'm sure the shift of Fighter vs Barbarian vs. BH is different at different tiers... but talking about GWM in Tier 2 feels disingenuous to me in the first place, because the -5 to hit malus is just too big a chunk of your to-hit before T3 to reliably use in most combats.
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A big part of Optimus arguing against Blood Hunter being competent seems to be the assumption that the Battlemaster is using Precision Attack on every single GWM swing to offset the hit penalty. That seems hella dubious to me outside of short "PLEASE DIE NOW THANK YOU" burst fights, but that's where the math is. Personally I'd rather go with Fey-Touched to gain Hex/Hunter's Mark for dire combats. Even if you're not a Profane Soul able to cast the spell yourself, having something to do with your concentration that stacks up with your Rite damage is a good way to get more mileage out of one's blood hunter.
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They can wait to see what they roll before deciding to use and get a handful of uses per Short Rest. Its not unreasonable to allow for it when looking at averages as you can expect to be able to use them at least 1-2 times a fight. Also if you Trip attack first you have a shot to get ADV on the rest of the attacks and add damage to the roll so theres that.
This is why napkin math = bad math.
AC and changes to mitigate to hit is more important for DPR talks.
BH does not get a way to off set the penalty.
Fighter gets precision die which is an eventual d12 to the attack roll making hits more reliable.
Barbarian gets at will ADV so they will pull ahead as well. Also you forgot that it is +4 damage for rage so its actually +19 damage per hit.
You mention them but I feel you underestimate how much that increases the damage
You are also not including the PAM Bonus Action attack on both the fighter and barb so add another 1d4+15 damage for the fighter and 1d4+19 damage for barbarian (+5 STR +10 GWM + 4 Rage)
That's true, and I'd be okay with treating that pool of 6 potential to-hit bonuses as "kind of" balancing out the Fighter being -2 to compared to the Barbarian and BH. But even with that, the Fighter is left doing slightly less DPR than BH.
Ultimately, 1 or 2 dpr one way the other doesn't matter at these high tiers. I'd lump all three of these classes into the same general tier of great GWM users, and there's several multiclass mixes that belong there as well.
At level 8, Fighter is probably the only class that can realistically pull off having taken GWM, but I maintain it won't be likely to be real useful except against cherry-picked low-AC high-HP monsters until 12+, at which point any class can have picked it.
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A Battle Master can do that exactly six times per short rest before it falls off. And a Polearm Muenster build means the Blood Hunter doesn't need Cruelty to gain a bonus action attack and can use a different mutagen, instead.
Trust me, Optimus. I am perfectly aware of how ridiculously busted Superiority is. One of my absolute fondest dreams for any perspective 5.5e or 6e is for Superiority to be broadened out to all martial classes. But stating that the blood hunter is absolutely terrible horrible no-good very bad awful because it doesn't have Superiority is ridiculous. Classes have been holding their own against Battlemasters since the game dropped, ne?
Please do not contact or message me.
OH I agree.
Just saying that its not that much of a drop off for BH the only real issue is the heavy armor thing but sounds like some subclasses can deal with the AC issue.
Yeah, I lost sight of the forest there, Cruelty is good for giving a Bonus attack to a sword n board user, but redundant for a Pike user with access to PAM. Good catch. Though, even a Pike user might have competing feat uses, it still has applications.
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Yeah that mutagen is no joke though good stuff.
You get a lot with that build too beyond damage.
I made a Strength based Blood Hunter and I think it's fun. I might've built poorly though, I don't know.
https://ddb.ac/characters/9842259/WqCeSr
I wouldn't say so, no, other than not cheesing your level 1 to pick up free heavy armor proficiency. Medium armor is a tough thing to build for, it looks like you have either a +2 Dex ASI in your future (to have a maximum of 17 AC in Half Plate), or take Heavily Armored as your next feat (to bump Strength to 20 and have a maximum 18 AC in Plate). A 12 Dex wasn't necessary if you end up wearing Heavy Armor, but making Dex saves and checks at a +1 instead of a -1 is welcome in a variety of situations, especially since you'll have disadvantage on those saves from Potency and need all the help you can get with them. You only have room for one more +1 Str feat, so if you do take Heavily Armored, then something like Slasher or Heavy Armor Master will be wasted, so plan accordingly. Honestly, leaving your Strength at 19 is optimal from a level 20 perspective, but in practice you want to bump it to unmodified 20 at some point around level 11 so that you're at 24 Strength from level 11 onwards. All that's really suffered, due to your stat spread, is that your Intelligence is always going to be a little bit lower than some other BH's might have built for, which means your save-based maledicts (Binding, amplified Agony, Corrosion) won't be quite as effective and your Dark Augmentation less potent of a buff to prop up your Dex save. But then again, there's always Sagacity for that, if you can spare the mutagen.
In your future, I might suggest:
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Thank you for the advice!!