Hello all, first time post but let me explain the situation i'm in; usually a DM I was asked to play in a friends upcoming campaign and heard the lineup of chosen characters already; Drunken Monk, Fiend Warlock, Bladesinging Wizard, Alchemist Artificier, and a Gloom Stalker/Rogue build.
VERY Dex heavy which unfortunately pushed me towards my usual play; strong frontliners who do a crap ton of damage. Now while I have no problem with the Champion Fighter or Totem Barbarian; i've just played them so many times in the past I want something different but want it strength based so I can contribute and upon looking at it I was intrigued by blood hunter and got to theory crafting; coming up with a Ghostslayer Polearm build with a dip in fighter at 1st level for Heavy Armor and eventually 3 for gunslinger to cover a ranged weakness; however looking at the finished product, while most likely playable and workable, seems like it'd be a bit underpowered and i'd quickly become a punching bag at the front line instead of the formidable bloodbourne-esque hunter presence I was imagining.
So I guess this brings me to my question; Is Blood Hunter just not that optimal for a STR build as opposed to DEX? Are there any other really STR builds that I can have a ton of fun with that aren't "run to front smack things" i'm just trying to play something that's not just entirely big man be stronk
I have admit I don't even look at the mercer-verse stuff, so I don't know about blood hunters, or gunslingers for that matter.
As for strength, Paladins can be a good str build. While its still run to the front and smash things, they can end with with really good AC, which your party will need, have some spells that can give them more interesting options (though most of the time, your best off spending the slots on smiting), and their auras that (depending on oath) let them be a bit of almost a support character, where positioning can really matter. Also, it will help with healing (spells and lay on hands - which will also help with poisons and disease) so the alchemist isn't the only one who has some healing.
There's also a few cleric domains (war, forge, I'd even throw tempest and maybe life in in there) that can be fun as high str characters, if only because they get the heavy armor that makes high str useful.
Blood hunters tend more towards striking than tanking - they can do a ton of damage and provide disruption and control with their rites and Maledictions, but the fact that they do those things by burning HP means they tend to lack endurance compared to other d10 or d12 classes. Blood hunters don't have any additional means of mitigating damage beyond a couple of their Maledictions blunting enemy attacks, so they're reliant on either party members or short combats to stay up
I would consider a Great Weapon focus over a polearm focus; blood hunters use their bonus action for all their blood-hunty stuff, Polearm Muenster conflicts with Maledictions and Crimson Rites while a great weapon build does not. Also unsure if I'd bother with the Gunslinger levels, at least mechanically. If you're shooting for a specific aesthetic, the swordslinger build with a crazy Soulsborn weapon in one hand and a rusty bloodstained blundermoose in the other, go for it. Elsewise I'd think about other things to do with fighter levels, or other means of obtaining heavy armor.
You could, alternatively, shoot for a level or two of barbarian. Dispense with heavy armor in favor of barbaric rage, which does not conflict with Rites or Maledictions. or at least, you can do those things while you're raging. Takes some set-up there, since you have to pick between Raging or Rite-ing on your first turn, but it could be a cool way to approach the sort of brutal savagery inherent in Soulsborn nonsense.
I’n the campaign I’m running, we have a Lucan Bloodhunter (with Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, admittedly) who absolutely shreds. He uses his claws to massacre basically any single target foe for a bunch of damage (3 Attacks for 1d6+Str+ Rite at level 5). With advantage on strength checks while shifted, he could be a good grappler as well. If he gets caught off-guard he kind of sucks, because it takes a full turn to get going, so he plays relatively risky by using his rite and transform before opening the door to avoid the chance of rolling initiate unbuffed. Basically play them as if Barbarians were good at dual-wielding.
I'm playing a Beasthide Shifter Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter, and it's going very well. I use strength, the Hybrid form gives me resistance, +1 AC and advantage on strength checks, and the racial feature gives me another +1 AC and temp HP (which goes twice as far because of resistance). Main problem is it takes a few turns to get everything going from scratch. For that I just make sure i use my Crimson Rite earlier in the day (it lasts as long as you are holding the weapon) and the transformation lasts an hour so I generally do it at the first sign of an encounter coming our way.
I am absurdly tanky and also do a shitload of damage. At level 8, with 18 strength: 2d6+5 maul + 1d6 crimson rite damage (x2 for extra attack). I have GWF style so my 2d6 almost always rolls pretty well. I COULD use unarmed strikes to attack 3 times, but the damage ends up pretty similar and I like having my bonus action available.
I'm playing a Beasthide Shifter Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter, and it's going very well. I use strength, the Hybrid form gives me resistance, +1 AC and advantage on strength checks, and the racial feature gives me another +1 AC and temp HP (which goes twice as far because of resistance). Main problem is it takes a few turns to get everything going from scratch. For that I just make sure i use my Crimson Rite earlier in the day (it lasts as long as you are holding the weapon) and the transformation lasts an hour so I generally do it at the first sign of an encounter coming our way.
I am absurdly tanky and also do a shitload of damage. At level 8, with 18 strength: 2d6+5 maul + 1d6 crimson rite damage (x2 for extra attack). I have GWF style so my 2d6 almost always rolls pretty well. I COULD use unarmed strikes to attack 3 times, but the damage ends up pretty similar and I like having my bonus action available.
Just as a comparison (So they have a frame of reference)....
Battlemaster Fighter with GWM + PAM (assuming V.human PAM) and 18 str: 2(1d10+14) Action then BA Polearm attack (1d4+14) = 55.5 damage
2d6+4 maul + 1d6 crimson rite damage (x2 for extra attack)= 24 damage
I put +4 for your damage as you said 18 STR so I am assuming +1 weapon or an oversight? Anyway I kept it as 4 for the sake of comparison. I am assuming precision attack for fighter as needed.
So you will be behind in Damage and HP (you will have less HP due to having to hurt yourself for the Rite)
However, Brand of Castigation can help close the gap but would likely not be enough. You get more stuff out of combat with blood hunter but this at least gives you a feel for DPR vs. an "optimized" STR build elsewhere.
EDIT: Sorry forgot you mentioned GWF in your build...it adds about 2 points of damage to the Blood Hunter build.
Calling bullshit, Optimus. You're comparing a Battle Master fighter with both of the most powerful close-combat weapon feats in the game to a bare-assed nekkid blood hunter and assuming perfect accuracy on those Power Attacks from Great Weapon Master. The damage is much closer if one assumes equivalent investment in resources. The blood hunter gets just as much Vhuman bullshit feat access at first level as the fighter, and 2d6 Rite damage for a GWM build versus the 1d4+4 from a bonus-action PAM punch is a difference of 7 to 6.5, i.e. a total wash. And the Rite damage goes up as the blood hunter levels up, while the PAM punch never does. The Great Weapon blunter build also keeps a free bonus action for Maledictions, which can hinder enemies or potentially increase damage, while the PAM guy loses damage if he does anything else with his bonus action.
Treat the Blunter fairly. I know people just love to hate on anything Matt Mercer creates, but Blood Hunters are nobody's slouch in the damage department.
Calling bullshit, Optimus. You're comparing a Battle Master fighter with both of the most powerful close-combat weapon feats in the game to a bare-assed nekkid blood hunter and assuming perfect accuracy on those Power Attacks from Great Weapon Master. The damage is much closer if one assumes equivalent investment in resources. The blood hunter gets just as much Vhuman bullshit feat access at first level as the fighter, and 2d6 Rite damage for a GWM build versus the 1d4+4 from a bonus-action PAM punch is a difference of 7 to 6.5, i.e. a total wash. And the Rite damage goes up as the blood hunter levels up, while the PAM punch never does. The Great Weapon blunter build also keeps a free bonus action for Maledictions, which can hinder enemies or potentially increase damage, while the PAM guy loses damage if he does anything else with his bonus action.
Treat the Blunter fairly. I know people just love to hate on anything Matt Mercer creates, but Blood Hunters are nobody's slouch in the damage department.
I am not if you actually look at the link I provided....
It's an AC dependant graph with DPR based on the reduced chance to hit....
I'm just saying that Blood Hunters are not the pure damage number builds that people think.... They are actually a good support class that has decent damage output. I'm just showing how much you lose in the exchange. Up to you if you think it's a lot or not.
Why does the Blood Hunter not have access to damaging feats? You're basing the fighter's Infinite Superiority on the fact that it gets 30 extra flat damage a round based on perfect accuracy with all three swings of your Great Weapon Master power attacks. You said it yourself - 1d10+14 twice and 1d4+14 once. The Blunter only gets 2d6+4 twice. If you're going to give the fighter Great Weapon Master, give the blood hunter Great Weapon Master, too. At which point it comes down to what the bonus action brings - 2d6 from a Rite, or 1d4+4 (or 14) from Polearm Muenster.
Give the Blood Hunter GWM, then run your supremely confusing graph nonsense again. See if it makes something of a difference. I feel like it juuuust might.
Why does the Blood Hunter not have access to damaging feats? You're basing the fighter's Infinite Superiority on the fact that it gets 30 extra flat damage a round based on perfect accuracy with all three swings of your Great Weapon Master power attacks. You said it yourself - 1d10+14 twice and 1d4+14 once. The Blunter only gets 2d6+4 twice. If you're going to give the fighter Great Weapon Master, give the blood hunter Great Weapon Master, too. At which point it comes down to what the bonus action brings - 2d6 from a Rite, or 1d4+4 (or 14) from Polearm Muenster.
Give the Blood Hunter GWM, then run your supremely confusing graph nonsense again. See if it makes something of a difference. I feel like it juuuust might.
I quoted and used the build that was posted. They claimed ", massive numbers" which I disproved.
Also blood hunter won't get as good of use with GWM due to a lack of ability to augment their to hit.
Battle master gets Trip attack and precision attack that provides better offsets to the hit penalty. I used a d8 to hit for the battlemaster for this reason.
Also battlemaster will pull ahead fairly quickly on a short rest basis due to Action Surge.
So, is there any reason why the blood hunter couldn't have GWM + PAM? If we're going to compare this we should equally. Also blood hunter order of the lycan has a +1 to melee damage while transformed which scales up over time. Hell, the blood hunter actually has even more of an advantage with that build because the crimson rite damage would apply on the bonus action attack as well.
SO at level 8 with 18 STR we end up with:
Blood Hunter: 2(1d10+1d6+15) Action plus BA polearm attack (1d4+1d6+15)
Fighter: 2(1d10+14) Action plus BA polearm attack (1d4+14)
I think you can see which one would add up higher base. Now, the fighter does have the benefit of action surge to nova once a fight, and of course maneuvers are great. The BH has the benefit of resistance to physical damage, and Blood Curses.
So, is there any reason why the blood hunter couldn't have GWM + PAM? If we're going to compare this we should equally. Also blood hunter order of the lycan has a +1 to melee damage while transformed which scales up over time. Hell, the blood hunter actually has even more of an advantage with that build because the crimson rite damage would apply on the bonus action attack as well.
SO at level 8 with 18 STR we end up with:
Blood Hunter: 2(1d10+1d6+15) Action plus BA polearm attack (1d4+1d6+15)
Fighter: 2(1d10+14) Action plus BA polearm attack (1d4+14)
I think you can see which one would add up higher base. Now, the fighter does have the benefit of action surge to nova once a fight, and of course maneuvers are great. The BH has the benefit of resistance to physical damage, and Blood Curses.
Then they should also have a lower STR as the fighter gets another ASI... Which makes GWM even worse for them as you now have a measly +1 to hit lol
You can run in circles with the numbers b1ut BH just can't catch up due to a lack of options to offset the hit penalty from GWM.
The DPR I calculate uses the actual chance to hit vs AC and the blood hunter will miss so much their DPR is actually worse with PAM with the lower to hit.
Also they have to use a turn to activate the rite so that's one turn behind damage from the fighter to catch up.
The fighter is still ahead....even with the extra damage on the PAM master attack for BH its about a 10 point difference between the two per round.
The real damage increase for the fighter doesn't come from the damage itself but the +d8 they can add to the attack if they miss as part of precision attack.
This does not also get into the whole AC issue with BH as they do not get heavy armor to start so they either have to dip a level in a class that does or they have to put DEX at 14....which means something else has to give as you would need STR, DEX, CON, and INT for this build.
Do not get me wrong I love BH and I think a fire polearm build is pretty ******* cool. I am just saying this is the comparison to the Gold Standard for STR Damage.
There are plenty of situations where I would pick a Blood Hunter:
1. RP heavy campaign. Blood hunter gives you more to work with on the RP angle than fighter IMO
2. Your party is allergic to short rests. BH will pull ahead fast if you are only getting to use your Short Rest stuff once per day and have 3-4 encounters.
3. Your DM hates magic items. BM Fighters have no intrinsic way of getting magic weapons so you would be at the mercy of the DM to give you a magic polearm. BH might pull ahead as a good percentage of your damage is elemental/radiant (depending on subclass).
4. Featless game- BH will be better in a featless game as the fighter relies on them heavily to be Super Effective.
But I appreciate honest takes on things and when I hear a simple maul BH with no feats is doing "massive" damage I have to clear the misconception.
My objection is more the fact that your wonky math assumes blood hunters deal no damage whatsoever and are thus discouraging the guy from playing blunter at all. Do they compare to a battlemaster that's burning every superiority die it has on every fight? No, but then again nothing does. Superiority is overpoweringly good, and frankly should be part of all martial classes and not just one overtuned subclass for fighters.
It's also worth noting that you're comparing the base blood hunter, with no subclass bonuses, to the best fighter subclass, which is equally unfair to the blood hunter. Your base comparison is a nekkid, featless blood hunter with zero subclass versus the best possible fighter subclass with every relevant damage feat. Of course the blood hunter doesn't deal any damage compared to the Fattlemaster in that case.
Compare the Order of the Ghostslayer that the OP specified to the Fattlemaster. The Ghostslayer gets an extra use of its Blood Maledict, which lets it deal extra damage or (more importantly) hinder enemies more effectively. It gains resistance to necrotic damage and a significant damage bonus against undead with its Radiant-damage rite up. The Ghostslayer can also turn into a literal ghost, bypassing both terrain and bodyblocking issues and allowing it to assault incorporeal entities. I get that none of this is straight, white-room Math Damage, but in a real blood-and-mud D&D game it all does matter.
I'm late to the math here, but why aren't we talking about Mutant and its potential for insane Strength, and extra Bonus Action attacks? I'm going to undercut my math here a little bit by advocating for Whip + Shield style, but I think it's got a good balance of damage (Duelist style), defense (+2 AC from shield), and flexibility (10 foot reach). I'm not sure what level we're building for here, but if Tier isn't an issue, I think that starting for 2-4 levels as a Fighter certainly does give a small defensive boost and some extra damage or utility from being a Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Psi Warrior... and it looks like you want to be more than just "big man", so yeah, I thin EK or Psi Warrior are a fun minor to build in. EK would probably give you more bang for your buck from having a 24 Inteligence, but I'll use Psi Warrior below.
At 20 as a Fighter (Psi) 4/BH (Mutant) 16, you have:
24 Strength, 24 Intelligence, and 3 attacks per round (2 from Attack Action, 1 as a Bonus with Cruelty).
As a vHuman, room for Skill Expert (str), Piercer, Telepathic (int), and Telekinetic (int) to get you there so you aren't just a big dumb jock.
AC 21 wearing plate and a shield with Defensive fighting style, and 164 HP (not great HP, but not terrible)
Whip attacks that are +13 to hit, 1d4+9. +1d10 crimson rite. +1d6+7 psychic damage once/round for 12 turns/short rest.
14 castigation damage whenever your branded target damages you or an ally.
Access to the Corrosion maledict, which is quite good (Poisoned is a ***** of a condition, on enemies that aren't immune to it). Or other general standbys like Binding or Exposure, when that isn't an option.
And of course, you're always welcome to NOT drink your Sagacity brew, and instead pick up things like resistance to a common damage type you know you'll face, regeneration, better mobility (even flying!), or some skill check enhancements. Definitely not a "boring" front liner!
The math on how many times you hit per round with a +13 to hit are beyond me, but considering that that's the maximum possible to-hit before magic, and over twice the to-hit that a GWM is using, I'm gonna hand waive and say "it's pretty good". Hitting on all three attacks in a round, rerolling one of them with Piercer, you'd be doing an average of something around 60ish+ damage per round, with 10 foot reach. Yes, with Potency, Sagacity, and Cruelty up your saves will suck , just accept that you're going to fail each and every spell cast against you and don't worry about it. :)
My objection is more the fact that your wonky math assumes blood hunters deal no damage whatsoever and are thus discouraging the guy from playing blunter at all. Do they compare to a battlemaster that's burning every superiority die it has on every fight? No, but then again nothing does. Superiority is overpoweringly good, and frankly should be part of all martial classes and not just one overtuned subclass for fighters.
It's also worth noting that you're comparing the base blood hunter, with no subclass bonuses, to the best fighter subclass, which is equally unfair to the blood hunter. Your base comparison is a nekkid, featless blood hunter with zero subclass versus the best possible fighter subclass with every relevant damage feat. Of course the blood hunter doesn't deal any damage compared to the Fattlemaster in that case.
Compare the Order of the Ghostslayer that the OP specified to the Fattlemaster. The Ghostslayer gets an extra use of its Blood Maledict, which lets it deal extra damage or (more importantly) hinder enemies more effectively. It gains resistance to necrotic damage and a significant damage bonus against undead with its Radiant-damage rite up. The Ghostslayer can also turn into a literal ghost, bypassing both terrain and bodyblocking issues and allowing it to assault incorporeal entities. I get that none of this is straight, white-room Math Damage, but in a real blood-and-mud D&D game it all does matter.
I did what you asked and made them more or less even with the feats they get and BH still came out behind. I am not trying to say they do no damage but I want to be realistic here.
If you are going STR Blood Hunter what is the reason....do you want to do damage? If so you should know what other STR builds are doing....that includes the one that is the most "optimized' and I clearly called that out when I posted. I made no effort to hide the fact it is the gold standard for the STR builds for damage. Most other STR builds will do more damage though which is another thing to consider. A zealot barb with PAM and GWM will outdamage even the fighter I think given always on ADV. A paladin will do more NOVA damage than either with smites.
These are the comparitors and giving them information on the best possible build vs. theres lets them know the absolute maximum they are giving up damage wise to play one. That is good information to make a decision.
I am also trying to show the benefits of BH here and I have obliviously stated that I like Blood Hunter and think its a cool choice and would actually pick it given the right circumstances.
I also just want to show that Blood Hunter is not the massive DPR machine people want it to be...its just not. I especially want to show how rough a STR BH would be as its just not easy to play one...they do not make it easy to be good with damage if that is what you are looking for, you do not have heavy armor to start so you are MAD as heck, and you have no real way to offset your GWM penalty if you want to increase your damage.
If you want to play STR BH for thematic reasons there is literally 0 reason not to...its fun for you to be the guy with the giant flaming polearm and I fully agree with that. Just have some good idea of what to expect and if that works for you then its all golden. Maybe your DM will let you pick up heavy armor from the get go and you can minimize the issues you might have. Maybe you talk about availability of magic items and what to expect.
All this helps with discussions before you decide to invest a lot of hours in a class and is all fair game to present it as such.
In this case, CC, people are using Order of the Ghostslayer at level 8 because that's what the original poster specified. I much prefer Mutant or Profane Soul myself, for a few different reasons, but any of them is better than white-room damage math with no subclass at all pitted against the Best Possible Fighter.
Admittedly the thread is also quite old, the original poster has made his decision long since by now. I just see posts like "Battlemaster fighter does more than twice the white-room damage of blood hunters because blood hunters are terrible" and can't really let that stand. A Crimson Rite is a Hunter's Mark/Hex that's attached to your weapon (and so can target whatever you do), cannot be countered or dispelled, and which stacks with Hunter's Mark or Hex from another source if you can get it. On top of scaling up as you level. It's a damn nice ability, and the blood hunter's ability to screw with its targets using Blood Maledict without having to splice caster levels into their build is almost unprecedented. Order of the Mutant offers some out-of-this-world buffery, to boot.
In this case, CC, people are using Order of the Ghostslayer at level 8 because that's what the original poster specified. I much prefer Mutant or Profane Soul myself, for a few different reasons, but any of them is better than white-room damage math with no subclass at all pitted against the Best Possible Fighter.
Admittedly the thread is also quite old, the original poster has made his decision long since by now. I just see posts like "Battlemaster fighter does more than twice the white-room damage of blood hunters because blood hunters are terrible" and can't really let that stand. A Crimson Rite is a Hunter's Mark/Hex that's attached to your weapon (and so can target whatever you do), cannot be countered or dispelled, and which stacks with Hunter's Mark or Hex from another source if you can get it. On top of scaling up as you level. It's a damn nice ability, and the blood hunter's ability to screw with its targets using Blood Maledict without having to splice caster levels into their build is almost unprecedented. Order of the Mutant offers some out-of-this-world buffery, to boot.
I like the class myself but would play it with DEX as I find that more beneficial but that's me
I'm late to the math here, but why aren't we talking about Mutant and its potential for insane Strength, and extra Bonus Action attacks? I'm going to undercut my math here a little bit by advocating for Whip + Shield style, but I think it's got a good balance of damage (Duelist style), defense (+2 AC from shield), and flexibility (10 foot reach). I'm not sure what level we're building for here, but if Tier isn't an issue, I think that starting for 2-4 levels as a Fighter certainly does give a small defensive boost and some extra damage or utility from being a Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Psi Warrior... and it looks like you want to be more than just "big man", so yeah, I thin EK or Psi Warrior are a fun minor to build in. EK would probably give you more bang for your buck from having a 24 Inteligence, but I'll use Psi Warrior below.
At 20 as a Fighter (Psi) 4/BH (Mutant) 16, you have:
24 Strength, 24 Intelligence, and 3 attacks per round (2 from Attack Action, 1 as a Bonus with Cruelty).
As a vHuman, room for Skill Expert (str), Piercer, Telepathic (int), and Telekinetic (int) to get you there so you aren't just a big dumb jock.
AC 21 wearing plate and a shield with Defensive fighting style, and 164 HP (not great HP, but not terrible)
Whip attacks that are +13 to hit, 1d4+9. +1d10 crimson rite. +1d6+7 psychic damage once/round for 12 turns/short rest.
14 castigation damage whenever your branded target damages you or an ally.
Access to the Corrosion maledict, which is quite good (Poisoned is a ***** of a condition, on enemies that aren't immune to it). Or other general standbys like Binding or Exposure, when that isn't an option.
And of course, you're always welcome to NOT drink your Sagacity brew, and instead pick up things like resistance to a common damage type you know you'll face, regeneration, better mobility (even flying!), or some skill check enhancements. Definitely not a "boring" front liner!
The math on how many times you hit per round with a +13 to hit are beyond me, but considering that that's the maximum possible to-hit before magic, and over twice the to-hit that a GWM is using, I'm gonna hand waive and say "it's pretty good". Hitting on all three attacks in a round, rerolling one of them with Piercer, you'd be doing an average of something around 60ish+ damage per round, with 10 foot reach. Yes, with Potency, Sagacity, and Cruelty up your saves will suck , just accept that you're going to fail each and every spell cast against you and don't worry about it. :)
We were talking level 8 so this is a bit outside the conversation.
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Hello all, first time post but let me explain the situation i'm in; usually a DM I was asked to play in a friends upcoming campaign and heard the lineup of chosen characters already; Drunken Monk, Fiend Warlock, Bladesinging Wizard, Alchemist Artificier, and a Gloom Stalker/Rogue build.
VERY Dex heavy which unfortunately pushed me towards my usual play; strong frontliners who do a crap ton of damage. Now while I have no problem with the Champion Fighter or Totem Barbarian; i've just played them so many times in the past I want something different but want it strength based so I can contribute and upon looking at it I was intrigued by blood hunter and got to theory crafting; coming up with a Ghostslayer Polearm build with a dip in fighter at 1st level for Heavy Armor and eventually 3 for gunslinger to cover a ranged weakness; however looking at the finished product, while most likely playable and workable, seems like it'd be a bit underpowered and i'd quickly become a punching bag at the front line instead of the formidable bloodbourne-esque hunter presence I was imagining.
So I guess this brings me to my question; Is Blood Hunter just not that optimal for a STR build as opposed to DEX? Are there any other really STR builds that I can have a ton of fun with that aren't "run to front smack things" i'm just trying to play something that's not just entirely big man be stronk
I have admit I don't even look at the mercer-verse stuff, so I don't know about blood hunters, or gunslingers for that matter.
As for strength, Paladins can be a good str build. While its still run to the front and smash things, they can end with with really good AC, which your party will need, have some spells that can give them more interesting options (though most of the time, your best off spending the slots on smiting), and their auras that (depending on oath) let them be a bit of almost a support character, where positioning can really matter. Also, it will help with healing (spells and lay on hands - which will also help with poisons and disease) so the alchemist isn't the only one who has some healing.
There's also a few cleric domains (war, forge, I'd even throw tempest and maybe life in in there) that can be fun as high str characters, if only because they get the heavy armor that makes high str useful.
Blood hunters tend more towards striking than tanking - they can do a ton of damage and provide disruption and control with their rites and Maledictions, but the fact that they do those things by burning HP means they tend to lack endurance compared to other d10 or d12 classes. Blood hunters don't have any additional means of mitigating damage beyond a couple of their Maledictions blunting enemy attacks, so they're reliant on either party members or short combats to stay up
I would consider a Great Weapon focus over a polearm focus; blood hunters use their bonus action for all their blood-hunty stuff, Polearm Muenster conflicts with Maledictions and Crimson Rites while a great weapon build does not. Also unsure if I'd bother with the Gunslinger levels, at least mechanically. If you're shooting for a specific aesthetic, the swordslinger build with a crazy Soulsborn weapon in one hand and a rusty bloodstained blundermoose in the other, go for it. Elsewise I'd think about other things to do with fighter levels, or other means of obtaining heavy armor.
You could, alternatively, shoot for a level or two of barbarian. Dispense with heavy armor in favor of barbaric rage, which does not conflict with Rites or Maledictions. or at least, you can do those things while you're raging. Takes some set-up there, since you have to pick between Raging or Rite-ing on your first turn, but it could be a cool way to approach the sort of brutal savagery inherent in Soulsborn nonsense.
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I’n the campaign I’m running, we have a Lucan Bloodhunter (with Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, admittedly) who absolutely shreds. He uses his claws to massacre basically any single target foe for a bunch of damage (3 Attacks for 1d6+Str+ Rite at level 5). With advantage on strength checks while shifted, he could be a good grappler as well. If he gets caught off-guard he kind of sucks, because it takes a full turn to get going, so he plays relatively risky by using his rite and transform before opening the door to avoid the chance of rolling initiate unbuffed. Basically play them as if Barbarians were good at dual-wielding.
I'm playing a Beasthide Shifter Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter, and it's going very well. I use strength, the Hybrid form gives me resistance, +1 AC and advantage on strength checks, and the racial feature gives me another +1 AC and temp HP (which goes twice as far because of resistance). Main problem is it takes a few turns to get everything going from scratch. For that I just make sure i use my Crimson Rite earlier in the day (it lasts as long as you are holding the weapon) and the transformation lasts an hour so I generally do it at the first sign of an encounter coming our way.
I am absurdly tanky and also do a shitload of damage. At level 8, with 18 strength: 2d6+5 maul + 1d6 crimson rite damage (x2 for extra attack). I have GWF style so my 2d6 almost always rolls pretty well. I COULD use unarmed strikes to attack 3 times, but the damage ends up pretty similar and I like having my bonus action available.
Just as a comparison (So they have a frame of reference)....
Battlemaster Fighter with GWM + PAM (assuming V.human PAM) and 18 str: 2(1d10+14) Action then BA Polearm attack (1d4+14) = 55.5 damage
2d6+4 maul + 1d6 crimson rite damage (x2 for extra attack)= 24 damage
I put +4 for your damage as you said 18 STR so I am assuming +1 weapon or an oversight? Anyway I kept it as 4 for the sake of comparison. I am assuming precision attack for fighter as needed.
Build comparison vs 15 AC: https://imgur.com/a/N7gOJFv
So you will be behind in Damage and HP (you will have less HP due to having to hurt yourself for the Rite)
However, Brand of Castigation can help close the gap but would likely not be enough. You get more stuff out of combat with blood hunter but this at least gives you a feel for DPR vs. an "optimized" STR build elsewhere.
EDIT: Sorry forgot you mentioned GWF in your build...it adds about 2 points of damage to the Blood Hunter build.
Calling bullshit, Optimus. You're comparing a Battle Master fighter with both of the most powerful close-combat weapon feats in the game to a bare-assed nekkid blood hunter and assuming perfect accuracy on those Power Attacks from Great Weapon Master. The damage is much closer if one assumes equivalent investment in resources. The blood hunter gets just as much Vhuman bullshit feat access at first level as the fighter, and 2d6 Rite damage for a GWM build versus the 1d4+4 from a bonus-action PAM punch is a difference of 7 to 6.5, i.e. a total wash. And the Rite damage goes up as the blood hunter levels up, while the PAM punch never does. The Great Weapon blunter build also keeps a free bonus action for Maledictions, which can hinder enemies or potentially increase damage, while the PAM guy loses damage if he does anything else with his bonus action.
Treat the Blunter fairly. I know people just love to hate on anything Matt Mercer creates, but Blood Hunters are nobody's slouch in the damage department.
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I am not if you actually look at the link I provided....
It's an AC dependant graph with DPR based on the reduced chance to hit....
I'm just saying that Blood Hunters are not the pure damage number builds that people think.... They are actually a good support class that has decent damage output. I'm just showing how much you lose in the exchange. Up to you if you think it's a lot or not.
Bullshit.
Why does the Blood Hunter not have access to damaging feats? You're basing the fighter's Infinite Superiority on the fact that it gets 30 extra flat damage a round based on perfect accuracy with all three swings of your Great Weapon Master power attacks. You said it yourself - 1d10+14 twice and 1d4+14 once. The Blunter only gets 2d6+4 twice. If you're going to give the fighter Great Weapon Master, give the blood hunter Great Weapon Master, too. At which point it comes down to what the bonus action brings - 2d6 from a Rite, or 1d4+4 (or 14) from Polearm Muenster.
Give the Blood Hunter GWM, then run your supremely confusing graph nonsense again. See if it makes something of a difference. I feel like it juuuust might.
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I quoted and used the build that was posted. They claimed ", massive numbers" which I disproved.
Also blood hunter won't get as good of use with GWM due to a lack of ability to augment their to hit.
Battle master gets Trip attack and precision attack that provides better offsets to the hit penalty. I used a d8 to hit for the battlemaster for this reason.
Also battlemaster will pull ahead fairly quickly on a short rest basis due to Action Surge.
It's actually about the same for blood hunter: http://imgur.com/gallery/cXCcbYw
If they can get ADV they can almost catch the fighter but not quite.
So, is there any reason why the blood hunter couldn't have GWM + PAM? If we're going to compare this we should equally. Also blood hunter order of the lycan has a +1 to melee damage while transformed which scales up over time. Hell, the blood hunter actually has even more of an advantage with that build because the crimson rite damage would apply on the bonus action attack as well.
SO at level 8 with 18 STR we end up with:
Blood Hunter: 2(1d10+1d6+15) Action plus BA polearm attack (1d4+1d6+15)
Fighter: 2(1d10+14) Action plus BA polearm attack (1d4+14)
I think you can see which one would add up higher base. Now, the fighter does have the benefit of action surge to nova once a fight, and of course maneuvers are great. The BH has the benefit of resistance to physical damage, and Blood Curses.
replying to this because i forgot to in my first post lol
Then they should also have a lower STR as the fighter gets another ASI... Which makes GWM even worse for them as you now have a measly +1 to hit lol
You can run in circles with the numbers b1ut BH just can't catch up due to a lack of options to offset the hit penalty from GWM.
The DPR I calculate uses the actual chance to hit vs AC and the blood hunter will miss so much their DPR is actually worse with PAM with the lower to hit.
Also they have to use a turn to activate the rite so that's one turn behind damage from the fighter to catch up.
Well after thoughts this is actually how it would look:
Blood Hunter- VHuman- Feat: PAM
4th level ASI: Feat- GWM
8th Level ASI: STR Increase to 18
Battlemaster Fighter: VHuman- Feat: PAM
4th level ASI: Feat: GWM
6th Level ASI: STR Increase to 18
8th Level ASI STR Increase to 20.
So by that comparison: https://imgur.com/a/gTMqdYe
The fighter is still ahead....even with the extra damage on the PAM master attack for BH its about a 10 point difference between the two per round.
The real damage increase for the fighter doesn't come from the damage itself but the +d8 they can add to the attack if they miss as part of precision attack.
This does not also get into the whole AC issue with BH as they do not get heavy armor to start so they either have to dip a level in a class that does or they have to put DEX at 14....which means something else has to give as you would need STR, DEX, CON, and INT for this build.
Do not get me wrong I love BH and I think a fire polearm build is pretty ******* cool. I am just saying this is the comparison to the Gold Standard for STR Damage.
There are plenty of situations where I would pick a Blood Hunter:
1. RP heavy campaign. Blood hunter gives you more to work with on the RP angle than fighter IMO
2. Your party is allergic to short rests. BH will pull ahead fast if you are only getting to use your Short Rest stuff once per day and have 3-4 encounters.
3. Your DM hates magic items. BM Fighters have no intrinsic way of getting magic weapons so you would be at the mercy of the DM to give you a magic polearm. BH might pull ahead as a good percentage of your damage is elemental/radiant (depending on subclass).
4. Featless game- BH will be better in a featless game as the fighter relies on them heavily to be Super Effective.
But I appreciate honest takes on things and when I hear a simple maul BH with no feats is doing "massive" damage I have to clear the misconception.
My objection is more the fact that your wonky math assumes blood hunters deal no damage whatsoever and are thus discouraging the guy from playing blunter at all. Do they compare to a battlemaster that's burning every superiority die it has on every fight? No, but then again nothing does. Superiority is overpoweringly good, and frankly should be part of all martial classes and not just one overtuned subclass for fighters.
It's also worth noting that you're comparing the base blood hunter, with no subclass bonuses, to the best fighter subclass, which is equally unfair to the blood hunter. Your base comparison is a nekkid, featless blood hunter with zero subclass versus the best possible fighter subclass with every relevant damage feat. Of course the blood hunter doesn't deal any damage compared to the Fattlemaster in that case.
Compare the Order of the Ghostslayer that the OP specified to the Fattlemaster. The Ghostslayer gets an extra use of its Blood Maledict, which lets it deal extra damage or (more importantly) hinder enemies more effectively. It gains resistance to necrotic damage and a significant damage bonus against undead with its Radiant-damage rite up. The Ghostslayer can also turn into a literal ghost, bypassing both terrain and bodyblocking issues and allowing it to assault incorporeal entities. I get that none of this is straight, white-room Math Damage, but in a real blood-and-mud D&D game it all does matter.
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I'm late to the math here, but why aren't we talking about Mutant and its potential for insane Strength, and extra Bonus Action attacks? I'm going to undercut my math here a little bit by advocating for Whip + Shield style, but I think it's got a good balance of damage (Duelist style), defense (+2 AC from shield), and flexibility (10 foot reach). I'm not sure what level we're building for here, but if Tier isn't an issue, I think that starting for 2-4 levels as a Fighter certainly does give a small defensive boost and some extra damage or utility from being a Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Psi Warrior... and it looks like you want to be more than just "big man", so yeah, I thin EK or Psi Warrior are a fun minor to build in. EK would probably give you more bang for your buck from having a 24 Inteligence, but I'll use Psi Warrior below.
At 20 as a Fighter (Psi) 4/BH (Mutant) 16, you have:
24 Strength, 24 Intelligence, and 3 attacks per round (2 from Attack Action, 1 as a Bonus with Cruelty).
As a vHuman, room for Skill Expert (str), Piercer, Telepathic (int), and Telekinetic (int) to get you there so you aren't just a big dumb jock.
AC 21 wearing plate and a shield with Defensive fighting style, and 164 HP (not great HP, but not terrible)
Whip attacks that are +13 to hit, 1d4+9. +1d10 crimson rite. +1d6+7 psychic damage once/round for 12 turns/short rest.
14 castigation damage whenever your branded target damages you or an ally.
Access to the Corrosion maledict, which is quite good (Poisoned is a ***** of a condition, on enemies that aren't immune to it). Or other general standbys like Binding or Exposure, when that isn't an option.
And of course, you're always welcome to NOT drink your Sagacity brew, and instead pick up things like resistance to a common damage type you know you'll face, regeneration, better mobility (even flying!), or some skill check enhancements. Definitely not a "boring" front liner!
The math on how many times you hit per round with a +13 to hit are beyond me, but considering that that's the maximum possible to-hit before magic, and over twice the to-hit that a GWM is using, I'm gonna hand waive and say "it's pretty good". Hitting on all three attacks in a round, rerolling one of them with Piercer, you'd be doing an average of something around 60ish+ damage per round, with 10 foot reach. Yes, with Potency, Sagacity, and Cruelty up your saves will suck , just accept that you're going to fail each and every spell cast against you and don't worry about it. :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I did what you asked and made them more or less even with the feats they get and BH still came out behind. I am not trying to say they do no damage but I want to be realistic here.
If you are going STR Blood Hunter what is the reason....do you want to do damage? If so you should know what other STR builds are doing....that includes the one that is the most "optimized' and I clearly called that out when I posted. I made no effort to hide the fact it is the gold standard for the STR builds for damage. Most other STR builds will do more damage though which is another thing to consider. A zealot barb with PAM and GWM will outdamage even the fighter I think given always on ADV. A paladin will do more NOVA damage than either with smites.
These are the comparitors and giving them information on the best possible build vs. theres lets them know the absolute maximum they are giving up damage wise to play one. That is good information to make a decision.
I am also trying to show the benefits of BH here and I have obliviously stated that I like Blood Hunter and think its a cool choice and would actually pick it given the right circumstances.
I also just want to show that Blood Hunter is not the massive DPR machine people want it to be...its just not. I especially want to show how rough a STR BH would be as its just not easy to play one...they do not make it easy to be good with damage if that is what you are looking for, you do not have heavy armor to start so you are MAD as heck, and you have no real way to offset your GWM penalty if you want to increase your damage.
If you want to play STR BH for thematic reasons there is literally 0 reason not to...its fun for you to be the guy with the giant flaming polearm and I fully agree with that.
Just have some good idea of what to expect and if that works for you then its all golden. Maybe your DM will let you pick up heavy armor from the get go and you can minimize the issues you might have. Maybe you talk about availability of magic items and what to expect.
All this helps with discussions before you decide to invest a lot of hours in a class and is all fair game to present it as such.
In this case, CC, people are using Order of the Ghostslayer at level 8 because that's what the original poster specified. I much prefer Mutant or Profane Soul myself, for a few different reasons, but any of them is better than white-room damage math with no subclass at all pitted against the Best Possible Fighter.
Admittedly the thread is also quite old, the original poster has made his decision long since by now. I just see posts like "Battlemaster fighter does more than twice the white-room damage of blood hunters because blood hunters are terrible" and can't really let that stand. A Crimson Rite is a Hunter's Mark/Hex that's attached to your weapon (and so can target whatever you do), cannot be countered or dispelled, and which stacks with Hunter's Mark or Hex from another source if you can get it. On top of scaling up as you level. It's a damn nice ability, and the blood hunter's ability to screw with its targets using Blood Maledict without having to splice caster levels into their build is almost unprecedented. Order of the Mutant offers some out-of-this-world buffery, to boot.
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I like the class myself but would play it with DEX as I find that more beneficial but that's me
We were talking level 8 so this is a bit outside the conversation.