That could mean if you're multi attack able, you only get "one shot" with the net (representing casting out and recovery time if you miss or the fact that it's caught and you can't spread it further if you hit) so could very well follow up or press on with attacks with your trident. Or, one handed or not, casting a net is a complex whole body action and eats up your multi capacity. I'd lean to the former interpretation but could see disagreement.
The Shortbow, Longbow, and Light/Heavy Crossbows all explicitly state they are two-handed weapons. The net does not have any such descriptor. I believe it's a one handed weapon.
You're 100% correct about the special clause though. I misunderstood that limitation late last night. I thought all I needed was the "draw as part of the attack" clause to get around it. I'm going to add a clause that allows the character to benefit from the extra attack feature while attacking with nets. Considering tridents don't qualify for Great Weapon Master I don't see that as a balance problem.
I'm super on board with making this available to spears as well. Excellent idea I glossed over with my focus on boosting the trident. My trident pride may sting just a little, but overall only good comes out of adding it. Opens the feat up to enabling net builds that don't want to be tied down by the specific flavor of the trident.
As for getting it on a Wet Elf I'd probably just suck it up and wait to level 4. I'll suffer mechanically for a concept if there's something to get excited about. For my specific arctic tribe guy, I could also get behind using Custom Lineage and flavoring my people as a small and very isolated branch of Sea Elves that adapted to the arctic in a world where Sea Elves populate temperate waters and climates.
That could mean if you're multi attack able, you only get "one shot" with the net (representing casting out and recovery time if you miss or the fact that it's caught and you can't spread it further if you hit) so could very well follow up or press on with attacks with your trident. Or, one handed or not, casting a net is a complex whole body action and eats up your multi capacity. I'd lean to the former interpretation but could see disagreement.
The Shortbow, Longbow, and Light/Heavy Crossbows all explicitly state they are two-handed weapons. The net does not have any such descriptor. I believe it's a one handed weapon.
You're 100% correct about the special clause though. I misunderstood that limitation late last night. I thought all I needed was the "draw as part of the attack" clause to get around it. I'm going to add a clause that allows the character to benefit from the extra attack feature while attacking with nets. Considering tridents don't qualify for Great Weapon Master I don't see that as a balance problem.
As I think I said, I'm sorta into nets in the game I play actually tonight. My instincts when I was thinking through a character was nets were two handed weapons, maybe because of something I saw in a Gladiator movie or that Spartacus TV show from a while back. You Tubing though, I did see there is a one handed net cast that net fishers can do, some even call it "ninja casting" so I'm good with it. I mean a stickler could still argue that a net is regardless a whole body act (as would throwing a spear) but really every melee weapon used with lethal intent is a whole body act (which is why I'm a little soured at how easy two weapon fighting is 5e).
One other thing I"m thinking about since my game's hobgoblin is just starting to use his net is the ramifications of missing. I guess it's not that different form a thrown spear, if you miss, go pick it up. But this would even affect a net in melee quarters since I think part of committing a net to ensnare requires the user to release it (unless you got a specialized net with a frame to catch tiny creatures butterfly catcher style). Recovering a net to be "combat deployable" again brings in reloadable considerations, so I'm curious how you'd handle that, so I can steal.
As for getting it on a Wet Elf I'd probably just suck it up and wait to level 4. I'll suffer mechanically for a concept if there's something to get excited about. For my specific arctic tribe guy, I could also get behind using Custom Lineage and flavoring my people as a small and very isolated branch of Sea Elves that adapted to the arctic in a world where Sea Elves populate temperate waters and climates.
I like your idea of Ice Elves or Polar Elves as a sort of variant or sub-subrace of Sea Elves (my favorite G.I. Joe figure The Snow Serpent according to G.I. Joe lore was selected out Cobra's cadre of Eels - Cobra's SEAL team equivalent). For the lols, you could even give some members of the tribe tinker skills sets or feats ... because they work at a toy workshop....
Ah, the "300 effect." I haven't seen this in a while. Well, if you want to build a hoplite then you're on the right track. Historically, they had to provide their own equipment so you'd only really find decently armored ones among the middle class. The most common/popular armor was layered linens, called linothorax, and was worn by free farmers who could afford it. In 5e terms, we'd probably call it padded armor.
Those who could afford bronze armor usually wore a 3/4 helm, breastplate, and greaves. But some did have heavier armor; enough so that plate is not unreasonable for a well-to-do soldier. And they were soldiers. All fought in phalanx formation, but only Sparta had a professional soldier class. And with their discipline they dominated for a time, but they weren't unbeatable. They didn't curb stomp anyone, not really, and Thebes overtook them as the dominant military power of the peninsula for several decades after the Peloponnesian War.
There is a hoplite build for the Battle Master in Tasha's. See if any of that tickles your fancy.
Looking for flavor and effectiveness. Here's an idea I had, and I'm open to more.
Zealot Barbarian (for extra radiant damage): Human Variant
Level 1: Skill Master (expertise in Athletics). This sets up the Shield Master bonus action shove to be absurdly reliable, between STR, advantage on Athletics checks while raged, and expertise. It also rounds out a 17 strength to 18, or 19 to 20 if you roll well.
Level 4: Shield Master. As above, your shove ability will practically auto-succeed. Danger Sense gives you advantage on Dex saves, and SM causes Dex saves for half damage to be zero instead.
Level 8: GWM (maybe?). Two attacks with advantage from reckless attack = 18.55% chance to crit, granting an extra bonus action attack. Also extra attack every time you kill something.
Level 9/10: Two levels of Fighter for Dueling Fighting Style (+2 damage per hit), Second Wind, and Action Surge.
I've long wanted to do this myself so I am very interested in what this thread creates. My flavor is a dwarven phalanx warrior.
The problem I keep coming back to is how Shield Master was nerfed via errata to only being able to be used after the attack action. Some DMs may require all attack actions to be resolved while others might allow the BA to happen between multiple attacks.
I see it more as a Battle Master with the combat maneuvers adding to the effectiveness and the flavor.
Ah, the "300 effect." I haven't seen this in a while. Well, if you want to build a hoplite then you're on the right track. Historically, they had to provide their own equipment so you'd only really find decently armored ones among the middle class. The most common/popular armor was layered linens, called linothorax, and was worn by free farmers who could afford it. In 5e terms, we'd probably call it padded armor.
Those who could afford bronze armor usually wore a 3/4 helm, breastplate, and greaves. But some did have heavier armor; enough so that plate is not unreasonable for a well-to-do soldier. And they were soldiers. All fought in phalanx formation, but only Sparta had a professional soldier class. And with their discipline they dominated for a time, but they weren't unbeatable. They didn't curb stomp anyone, not really, and Thebes overtook them as the dominant military power of the peninsula for several decades after the Peloponnesian War.
There is a hoplite build for the Battle Master in Tasha's. See if any of that tickles your fancy.
I'm not sure what you're on about with all this history crap, but obviously they all looked like this:
HA. In all seriousness, good info Jounichi. I would be leaning towards Battlemaster myself to fit the historical hoplite in armor since the maneuvers are just perfect for building a skilled phalanx fighter. BUT, if you want that Frank Miller, thong toting goodness, then I'd be going Barbarian all day long.
HawkinTenebrae: Shield Master is worse than a version that allows you to shove first, but I still think it's a great feat. Giving a martial the ability to synergize with and buff their allies is underrated. Protecting you against targeted dex saves is great. Taking no damage on a success is great. And giving meaning to your bonus action is something many builds are looking for.
I think some version of Yurei's build, going battlemaster instead of champion would be an excellent fit. Picking up thrown weapon + dueling style alongside the quick toss maneuver makes for an excellent javelin chucker, while you are just at home charging into melee with your sword/javelin and shield thanks to dueling + shield master combined with controlling maneuvers. I would definitely still have a sword on this build, if just for the concept. Variant Human picks up both fighting styles at level 1, shield master at 4 and maxes out strength by 8. I think that battlemaster base is chef's kiss levels of good with the option to dip into some interesting things.
Net Stuff: Gonna put this in a spoiler since it's only tangentially related and I don't want to muck this thread up too much with my obsessions.
As I understand the rules the net is a one handed weapon you throw. Since it does not have any special returning property despite real life nets involving a tether, it's just like any other thrown weapon and is separated from your control once thrown.
I feel like there's a fairly big disconnect between the game's ability to mechanically represent a net throw and what throwing a net is like in real life. Even the one handed "ninja throw" fishing technique seems to involve holding the cord with the other hand. Then there is the gladiator technique which seems to be more about sweeping at the legs and weapons of the enemy, but rarely if ever letting go of the net in a throwing action.
Here's a number of solutions I'm thinking about:
The person carries multiple nets. The simplest, but also feels super weird from a flavor perspective. Gladiators didn't roll into battle with a batman toolbelt full of nets. I mostly just hate it from a visual/conceptual standpoint, but I suppose it could make sense on certain character concepts.
Add a function to the feat that allows the person to retrieve a net within five feet that is not restraining a creature as a free action once on your turn.
Add a function that allows you to make a melee attack with a net. I like this when trying to fully realize the gladiator technique, but I also think it gets complicated in terms of the implications of pushing/pulling an enemy you have restrained.
I'm leaning towards the second because it's more satisfying from a conceptual perspective, but not as complicated as creating melee attacks for nets and dealing with the logistical fallout of being "attached" to a creature by the net you're still wielding.
I would recommend the artificer for a spear and shield build. The build hinges on the infusion "Returning Weapon" which gives your spear (technically a javelin, which has the same damage but better range brackets when thrown and used 1 handed) a +1 to hit and damage and counts as magic damage and instantly teleports back to your hand. You could give your shield a +1 too, or save the infusion for something else.
So you can throw or go melee no problem, the javelin is also a spell casting focus, and if you pick Battle Smith at level 3 you now can use your intelligence when attacking and dealing damage, while still improving your spell D.C., so you have that one God stat to pool all your ASIs into.
Not to mention you get a very useful pet and are on track for extra attack at level 5.
I am a little late on this post but I'm going shield and spear for my upcoming Dragonlance campaign. I am going variant human oath of glory (maybe vengeance) paladin. I will take PAM feat at level 1 so I can get the bonus action attack with the handle and the AoO when someone enters my range (only 5' with spear). I will take the dueling fighting style to add +2 damage on 1-handed weapons. At level 4, I will take the shield master feat so I can knock my opponent back 5 feet (bonus action) and will create an AoO when they close back in to attack. I plan on using mounted combat moving forward and hope this will somewhat be transferrable (mechanics of mounted combat are so open to DM interpretation that I will have to see how it works out). At level 5, I may go with a lance when mounted so I get 2 attacks (they both still get +2 damage for dueling) plus the shield shove. I will likely take mounted combatant feat at level 8 to keep my mount alive and get adv on all attacks while mounted (or else just take the strength asi).
Level 1-3: Spear attack action, Spear hilt bonus action (with a 16 strength and dueling it will be +5 to hit and +5 damage plus any AoO reaction attacks)
The Shortbow, Longbow, and Light/Heavy Crossbows all explicitly state they are two-handed weapons. The net does not have any such descriptor. I believe it's a one handed weapon.
You're 100% correct about the special clause though. I misunderstood that limitation late last night. I thought all I needed was the "draw as part of the attack" clause to get around it. I'm going to add a clause that allows the character to benefit from the extra attack feature while attacking with nets. Considering tridents don't qualify for Great Weapon Master I don't see that as a balance problem.
I'm super on board with making this available to spears as well. Excellent idea I glossed over with my focus on boosting the trident. My trident pride may sting just a little, but overall only good comes out of adding it. Opens the feat up to enabling net builds that don't want to be tied down by the specific flavor of the trident.
As for getting it on a Wet Elf I'd probably just suck it up and wait to level 4. I'll suffer mechanically for a concept if there's something to get excited about. For my specific arctic tribe guy, I could also get behind using Custom Lineage and flavoring my people as a small and very isolated branch of Sea Elves that adapted to the arctic in a world where Sea Elves populate temperate waters and climates.
As I think I said, I'm sorta into nets in the game I play actually tonight. My instincts when I was thinking through a character was nets were two handed weapons, maybe because of something I saw in a Gladiator movie or that Spartacus TV show from a while back. You Tubing though, I did see there is a one handed net cast that net fishers can do, some even call it "ninja casting" so I'm good with it. I mean a stickler could still argue that a net is regardless a whole body act (as would throwing a spear) but really every melee weapon used with lethal intent is a whole body act (which is why I'm a little soured at how easy two weapon fighting is 5e).
One other thing I"m thinking about since my game's hobgoblin is just starting to use his net is the ramifications of missing. I guess it's not that different form a thrown spear, if you miss, go pick it up. But this would even affect a net in melee quarters since I think part of committing a net to ensnare requires the user to release it (unless you got a specialized net with a frame to catch tiny creatures butterfly catcher style). Recovering a net to be "combat deployable" again brings in reloadable considerations, so I'm curious how you'd handle that, so I can steal.
I like your idea of Ice Elves or Polar Elves as a sort of variant or sub-subrace of Sea Elves (my favorite G.I. Joe figure The Snow Serpent according to G.I. Joe lore was selected out Cobra's cadre of Eels - Cobra's SEAL team equivalent). For the lols, you could even give some members of the tribe tinker skills sets or feats ... because they work at a toy workshop....
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Ah, the "300 effect." I haven't seen this in a while. Well, if you want to build a hoplite then you're on the right track. Historically, they had to provide their own equipment so you'd only really find decently armored ones among the middle class. The most common/popular armor was layered linens, called linothorax, and was worn by free farmers who could afford it. In 5e terms, we'd probably call it padded armor.
Those who could afford bronze armor usually wore a 3/4 helm, breastplate, and greaves. But some did have heavier armor; enough so that plate is not unreasonable for a well-to-do soldier. And they were soldiers. All fought in phalanx formation, but only Sparta had a professional soldier class. And with their discipline they dominated for a time, but they weren't unbeatable. They didn't curb stomp anyone, not really, and Thebes overtook them as the dominant military power of the peninsula for several decades after the Peloponnesian War.
There is a hoplite build for the Battle Master in Tasha's. See if any of that tickles your fancy.
I've long wanted to do this myself so I am very interested in what this thread creates. My flavor is a dwarven phalanx warrior.
The problem I keep coming back to is how Shield Master was nerfed via errata to only being able to be used after the attack action. Some DMs may require all attack actions to be resolved while others might allow the BA to happen between multiple attacks.
I see it more as a Battle Master with the combat maneuvers adding to the effectiveness and the flavor.
I'm not sure what you're on about with all this history crap, but obviously they all looked like this:
HA. In all seriousness, good info Jounichi. I would be leaning towards Battlemaster myself to fit the historical hoplite in armor since the maneuvers are just perfect for building a skilled phalanx fighter. BUT, if you want that Frank Miller, thong toting goodness, then I'd be going Barbarian all day long.
HawkinTenebrae: Shield Master is worse than a version that allows you to shove first, but I still think it's a great feat. Giving a martial the ability to synergize with and buff their allies is underrated. Protecting you against targeted dex saves is great. Taking no damage on a success is great. And giving meaning to your bonus action is something many builds are looking for.
I think some version of Yurei's build, going battlemaster instead of champion would be an excellent fit. Picking up thrown weapon + dueling style alongside the quick toss maneuver makes for an excellent javelin chucker, while you are just at home charging into melee with your sword/javelin and shield thanks to dueling + shield master combined with controlling maneuvers. I would definitely still have a sword on this build, if just for the concept. Variant Human picks up both fighting styles at level 1, shield master at 4 and maxes out strength by 8. I think that battlemaster base is chef's kiss levels of good with the option to dip into some interesting things.
Net Stuff: Gonna put this in a spoiler since it's only tangentially related and I don't want to muck this thread up too much with my obsessions.
As I understand the rules the net is a one handed weapon you throw. Since it does not have any special returning property despite real life nets involving a tether, it's just like any other thrown weapon and is separated from your control once thrown.
I feel like there's a fairly big disconnect between the game's ability to mechanically represent a net throw and what throwing a net is like in real life. Even the one handed "ninja throw" fishing technique seems to involve holding the cord with the other hand. Then there is the gladiator technique which seems to be more about sweeping at the legs and weapons of the enemy, but rarely if ever letting go of the net in a throwing action.
Here's a number of solutions I'm thinking about:
I'm leaning towards the second because it's more satisfying from a conceptual perspective, but not as complicated as creating melee attacks for nets and dealing with the logistical fallout of being "attached" to a creature by the net you're still wielding.
No artificer snow elves please. No No. ;)
I would recommend the artificer for a spear and shield build. The build hinges on the infusion "Returning Weapon" which gives your spear (technically a javelin, which has the same damage but better range brackets when thrown and used 1 handed) a +1 to hit and damage and counts as magic damage and instantly teleports back to your hand. You could give your shield a +1 too, or save the infusion for something else.
So you can throw or go melee no problem, the javelin is also a spell casting focus, and if you pick Battle Smith at level 3 you now can use your intelligence when attacking and dealing damage, while still improving your spell D.C., so you have that one God stat to pool all your ASIs into.
Not to mention you get a very useful pet and are on track for extra attack at level 5.
I am a little late on this post but I'm going shield and spear for my upcoming Dragonlance campaign. I am going variant human oath of glory (maybe vengeance) paladin. I will take PAM feat at level 1 so I can get the bonus action attack with the handle and the AoO when someone enters my range (only 5' with spear). I will take the dueling fighting style to add +2 damage on 1-handed weapons. At level 4, I will take the shield master feat so I can knock my opponent back 5 feet (bonus action) and will create an AoO when they close back in to attack. I plan on using mounted combat moving forward and hope this will somewhat be transferrable (mechanics of mounted combat are so open to DM interpretation that I will have to see how it works out). At level 5, I may go with a lance when mounted so I get 2 attacks (they both still get +2 damage for dueling) plus the shield shove. I will likely take mounted combatant feat at level 8 to keep my mount alive and get adv on all attacks while mounted (or else just take the strength asi).
Level 1-3: Spear attack action, Spear hilt bonus action (with a 16 strength and dueling it will be +5 to hit and +5 damage plus any AoO reaction attacks)
Level 4: Spear attack action, Shield shove bonus action (or spear hilt)
Level 5-7 on foot: Spear attack x2 action, Shield shove bonus action (or spear hilt)
Level 5-7 mounted: Lance attack x2 action, shield shove to keep enemy outside of 5' (still gets +2 dueling damage)
Level 8: Lance attack x2 w/ advantage action