Disintegrate should destroy it? It says it destroys creations of magical force, and explicitly lists Wall of Force as one thing it can disintegrate? The two spells are pretty similar.
You can't disintegrate the forcecage because the cage is invisible. Unless you have some way of seeing invisible objects.
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Not difficult, but certainly not assumed. I think it's a good catch for why Forcecage isn't generally countered by Disintegrate, since it can't generally be targeted by it. And Shapechange and True Polymorph are particularly unlikely to leave you capable of casting Disintegrate, probably don't belong on that list unless any of those 69 monsters know Disintegrate.
Also debatable... is an invisible force even an "invisible object", subject to being seen by Truesight and See Invisibility? Probably, but... I dunno, I'm not even sure what wording I'd want Truesight to have to explicitly cover this ("invisible forces"? But that would leave you seeing gravity...), maybe I'm overthinking it.
Disintegrate should destroy it? It says it destroys creations of magical force, and explicitly lists Wall of Force as one thing it can disintegrate? The two spells are pretty similar.
You can't disintegrate the forcecage because the cage is invisible. Unless you have some way of seeing invisible objects.
Disintegrate should destroy it? It says it destroys creations of magical force, and explicitly lists Wall of Force as one thing it can disintegrate? The two spells are pretty similar.
You can't disintegrate the forcecage because the cage is invisible. Unless you have some way of seeing invisible objects.
Faerie Fire suffers from the same caveat as Truesight... is a spell effect an object? If Forcecage is, why isn't Darkness? Solid forces/effects are objects, soupy ones aren't? Or...
Getting into arbitrating which magical effects act like matter and which don't could get messy quickly. Faerie Fire doesn't say that it outlines magical forces, and Truesight doesn't say it can detect invisible magical forces, so this feels like it could be a little off the rails of RAW...
Darkness depends. If you cast it on the a point, then no you cannot disintegrate a point in space. If you cast it on an object though... what happens when the object involved in darkness is destroyed?
Forcecage and Wall of Force create a cage/wall, which most people default to being objects. If it's a object or not isn't really specified yeah I agree there, but it feels really weird to tell someone that "Yeah it says Disintegrate can destroy Wall of Force, but it also says you need to be able to see the invisible wall of force, so no you can't actually destroy it."
Would it destroy an Unseen Servant? Probably, if you could see it, since it's almost more of a creature than it is an object, with an AC and hit points and everything. But...
I'm not entirely comfortable racing down this slippery slope of trying to arbitrate what spells create "objects" without telling us, vs. other spells that just create "effects". Disintegratehas language to describe these things as something other than objects: it calls them "creations of magical force." If you can see these "creations of magical force," then sure, knock yourself out Disintegrating them! But if they're invisible... Truesight doesn't say that it lets you see "creations of magical force," nor does See Invisibility. If such creations are objects for the purpose of Truesight, but "creations of magical force" for Disintegrate, what other off-the-cuff language are we going to start using to describe them? Are we going to treat them like objects for some spells and features, but not others?
It's entirely possible that Disintegrate was only ever intended to target the types of "creations of magical force" that create visible effects, and that that's why it doesn't mention Forcecage. It's also (very) possible that this Truesight and See Invisibility just aren't exhaustively worded, and should see invisible creations of magical force even though they aren't objects. Or I supppose it's possible that a Forcecage really is an object, though that seems sketchy to me. All are possible... but we're in some murky waters as far as RAW is concerned.
It's entirely possible that Disintegrate was only ever intended to target the types of "creations of magical force" that create visible effects, and that that's why it doesn't mention Forcecage.
I've been sitting here for like a hour like:
"Wait Wall of Force is also invisible"
""Yeah it says Disintegrate can destroy Wall of Force, but it also says you need to be able to see the invisible wall of force, so no you can't actually destroy it.""
It explicitly mentions destroying spells that don't create visible effects, which is what I'm getting really confused on. I suppose if you can see it via... somehow... then you can disintegrate it, but as written you basically can't do anything to destroy walls of force with the spell that's made to destroy walls of force.
Edit: Which is... kind of silly. The value of disintegrate just went down, although most DMs will probably be kind enough to hand-wave it and not a whole lot of casters use Wall of Force on players anyways.
Yeah, this is all probably unintended hair splitting then, since Disintegrate does very clearly think that there's a way for it to target a Wall of Force. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so I guess we're either supposed to disregard "see" in Disintegrate and let us aim for unseen creations, or we're supposed to let Disintegrate strike intervening objects and forces with effect while missing the true target, or we're supposed to read Truesight and See Invisibility and Faerie Fire to include other invisible forces that aren't truly "objects."
See Invisibility
True Seeing
Shapechange or True Polymorph into any of the 69 monsters with Truesight.
Use magic items like Gem of Seeing
I mean, it's not like it's difficult.
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Not difficult, but certainly not assumed. I think it's a good catch for why Forcecage isn't generally countered by Disintegrate, since it can't generally be targeted by it. And Shapechange and True Polymorph are particularly unlikely to leave you capable of casting Disintegrate, probably don't belong on that list unless any of those 69 monsters know Disintegrate.
Also debatable... is an invisible force even an "invisible object", subject to being seen by Truesight and See Invisibility? Probably, but... I dunno, I'm not even sure what wording I'd want Truesight to have to explicitly cover this ("invisible forces"? But that would leave you seeing gravity...), maybe I'm overthinking it.
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Faerie Fire
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Or any means of getting blindsight(Which counts as seeing for spellcasting).
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Faerie Fire suffers from the same caveat as Truesight... is a spell effect an object? If Forcecage is, why isn't Darkness? Solid forces/effects are objects, soupy ones aren't? Or...
Getting into arbitrating which magical effects act like matter and which don't could get messy quickly. Faerie Fire doesn't say that it outlines magical forces, and Truesight doesn't say it can detect invisible magical forces, so this feels like it could be a little off the rails of RAW...
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Darkness depends. If you cast it on the a point, then no you cannot disintegrate a point in space. If you cast it on an object though... what happens when the object involved in darkness is destroyed?
Forcecage and Wall of Force create a cage/wall, which most people default to being objects. If it's a object or not isn't really specified yeah I agree there, but it feels really weird to tell someone that "Yeah it says Disintegrate can destroy Wall of Force, but it also says you need to be able to see the invisible wall of force, so no you can't actually destroy it."
RAW though, I don't see any argument against it.
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Would it destroy an Unseen Servant? Probably, if you could see it, since it's almost more of a creature than it is an object, with an AC and hit points and everything. But...
What about a Mage Hand?
What about a Dust Devil?
What about a Spiritual Weapon?
What about a Guardian of Faith?
I'm not entirely comfortable racing down this slippery slope of trying to arbitrate what spells create "objects" without telling us, vs. other spells that just create "effects". Disintegrate has language to describe these things as something other than objects: it calls them "creations of magical force." If you can see these "creations of magical force," then sure, knock yourself out Disintegrating them! But if they're invisible... Truesight doesn't say that it lets you see "creations of magical force," nor does See Invisibility. If such creations are objects for the purpose of Truesight, but "creations of magical force" for Disintegrate, what other off-the-cuff language are we going to start using to describe them? Are we going to treat them like objects for some spells and features, but not others?
It's entirely possible that Disintegrate was only ever intended to target the types of "creations of magical force" that create visible effects, and that that's why it doesn't mention Forcecage. It's also (very) possible that this Truesight and See Invisibility just aren't exhaustively worded, and should see invisible creations of magical force even though they aren't objects. Or I supppose it's possible that a Forcecage really is an object, though that seems sketchy to me. All are possible... but we're in some murky waters as far as RAW is concerned.
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I've been sitting here for like a hour like:
"Wait Wall of Force is also invisible"
""Yeah it says Disintegrate can destroy Wall of Force, but it also says you need to be able to see the invisible wall of force, so no you can't actually destroy it.""
It explicitly mentions destroying spells that don't create visible effects, which is what I'm getting really confused on. I suppose if you can see it via... somehow... then you can disintegrate it, but as written you basically can't do anything to destroy walls of force with the spell that's made to destroy walls of force.
Edit: Which is... kind of silly. The value of disintegrate just went down, although most DMs will probably be kind enough to hand-wave it and not a whole lot of casters use Wall of Force on players anyways.
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This is why a pouch of flour is one of the best mundane items you can carry around.
Leave yourself a trail to follow, slap a handprint on a wall of force, bake a loaf of hard tack... the uses are endless.
Lol it is? Well damn :D
Yeah, this is all probably unintended hair splitting then, since Disintegrate does very clearly think that there's a way for it to target a Wall of Force. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so I guess we're either supposed to disregard "see" in Disintegrate and let us aim for unseen creations, or we're supposed to let Disintegrate strike intervening objects and forces with effect while missing the true target, or we're supposed to read Truesight and See Invisibility and Faerie Fire to include other invisible forces that aren't truly "objects."
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