Also your example of Channel Divinity is covered on the same page which reads:
Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes.
So your 17cleric/3 paladin can use the paladin channel divinity 2 times between rests because that is the higher cap allowed by the 17 levels of cleric as it is written in the rules.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
lol why are you quoting me? I never argued you cannot do that....
Sorry, I got the wrong quote. Someone else had argued that it wouldn't work and that was the intended quote.
It is not the same as two weapon fighting at all. Two weapon fighting gives you effectivley three weapon attacks. None of these attacks can benefit from GWM, so at most youll be dealing 3d8+15 nonmagical weapon damage.
With the War Magic/Bladesinger combo, you are making two attacks and casting a cantrip. That will be 2d8+10 weapon damage PLUS the damage of the cantrip, which at the level you have both features will be dealing anywhere from 3d6 to 3d10 magical damage. 2d8+10+3d10 is much better than 3d8+15 from TWF. Not to mention, for this build, you also only need one weapon and can keep your other hand free.
To put it shortly, being able to cast a cantrip is going to be better damage than a single extra attack.
I think that the idea would be two weapon fighting with the bladesinger which would give the same attack + cantrip Action and then a bonus action attack. Two weapon fighting style could give the attack modifier damage, but dueling would be better since you'd make three attacks with a scagtrip.
Others have mentioned it but I think it's worth mentioning again. It takes way too long to get the Bladesinger/ EK build online. Most campaigns are over by level 13. No way I would take that many levels off of Bladesinger for that. Building for multiclass synergies is strong when it's all about the short-term: gaining synergistic abilities early on in your career. By 13th level a straight Bladesinger has 7th level spells. War Magic can't shake a stick at that.
Being able to have a hand free is worth SOMETHING... but then again, your Bladesinger could be wielding a quarterstaff with PAM to accomplish the same (with smaller damage dice). Four feats as a Fighter 2/Bladesinger 18, or Fighter 2/Battle Smith 4/Bladesinger 14, is enough to max intelligence, take PAM, and still have Warcaster. I think those extra spell levels are worth it... but if you really don’t mind fewer spells, and want more feats, I guess the EK has some kinda niche it’s okay in. Even then, I still think I’d rather be a Bladesinger 14/Psi Warrior or Battlemaster 6 rather than a Bladesinger 13/EK 7 or Bladesinger 11/EK 9 or 10/10 or whatever, though.
Bladesingers can’t use GWM, no two-handed attacks. A level 6 Bladesinger can make two d6 short sword attacks, + 1 GFB/BB cantrip. If they take Dual Wilder, those can be d8s, and +1 AC. With two levels of Fighter, they can have Action Surge and TWF style by level 8.
OR, you can be level 13 (Ek 7/Bladesinger 6) to do the same thing with one weapon, no +1 AC, and +2 damage/hit from Dueling. That doesn’t feel worth 5 levels of crappy spell progression to me, plus the opportunity cost of an utter lack of meaningful class features from the EK (except for a level 6 feat/ASI, that’s nice enough).
A Fighter 2/Armorer 5/Bladesinger 6 has two feats to play with for intelligence or strength, TWF style with D8s, and caster level 9. Not very efficient since thunder gauntlets are Str only, but Bladesinger can’t wear heavy armor... A Fighter 2/Battle Smith 5/ Bladesinger 6 has two feats to play with for Dex or intelligence, TWF style with d6s, and caster level 9. Very efficient, because can be SAD on intelligence, with a minor in Dex for AC.
A Fighter 2/Bladesinger 11 has two feats for intelligence and Dex, TWF style with d6s, and caster level 11.
An EK 7/Bladesinger 6 has three feats for intelligence or Dex, dueling or defense fighting style, d8s, and caster level 8.
I’d take the TWF Battle Smith or Bladesinger over the EK MC any day of the week.
The second paragraph of armor model says:
Each model includes a special weapon. When you attack with that weapon, you can add your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to the attack and damage rolls.
It doesn't help any other weapon, but does allow for int on those attacks.
if you are only going to level 8 or so I could see the justification for a 2 level fighter dip to get Action Surge at the end to really pump out damage. You could open with a fireball then action surge into your attack/cantrip. You could also Mind Sliver/attack then hit them with a Hold Person or something similar.
At level 20 a 13BS/7EK can output some very nice damage. They can on the First Round attack with a 5d8 Shadow Blade and then top it off with a Booming Blade. Subsequent turns they get in 2 Shadow Blade hits with a Booming Blade.
With Action Surge they can do impressive single target burst or pull off sick Wizard combos like Forcecage + Sickening Radiance.
Then you can Wish for a simulacrum and both of you can gang up on someone with Shadowblade/Boomer blade. You both get Action Surge too so you can beat up someone real good.
Then you can Wish for a simulacrum and both of you can gang up on someone with Shadowblade/Boomer blade. You both get Action Surge too so you can beat up someone real good.
Then you can Wish for a simulacrum and both of you can gang up on someone with Shadowblade/Boomer blade. You both get Action Surge too so you can beat up someone real good.
Nah you don't get enough ASIs with that build.
PS: I know you are just joking :D
PPS: Or are you?!?!?! :P
You could just go straight wizard then if you want that last ASI.
If you pick spell mastery with Shadowblade your simulacrum never has to worry about not having slots for it at 2nd level at least.
Plus you can cast Shield at will so your AC is just crazy high.
You can even have your sim just stand back and cast slow on your enemy or some other debuff. If they get hurt just cast wish again the next day and get a new one.
oh, Armorer gets int attacks too?!?! Oh then it is HANDS DOWN better than EK, no question at all.
It looks like an Arrmorer 3+/Bladesinger14+ would get to add their intelligence modifier twice to their melee attacks. Both gauntlets are simple weapons if you aren't holding anything in them and the armor is your spellcasting focus, which alleviates the need to hold something in either. Nothing suggests that they are light, so grabbing dual wielder would allow you to attack with both via TWF. The hiccup could come with Booming Blade, since the gauntlet doesn't have a stated value of 1 sp or more. The DM might disallow it as such. Being able to get Thunderclap would be a nice backup cantrip for AOE. Dampening field makes up for the D6/D8 hit die combo to an extent and being able to change from Guardian to Infiltrator after any rest allows for some heavy flexibility. You can doff or don your armor as an action, which means that you could theoretically carry a heavy armor and a light armor option, go fighter 2 for Action Surge, and be transition from non-Bladesinger to Bladesinger or vice versa in one turn. Interesting.
oh, Armorer gets int attacks too?!?! Oh then it is HANDS DOWN better than EK, no question at all.
Yeah, I agree. Although I do find it conceptually amusing to pick the Guardian Armor model while wearing light armor if multiclassing with Bladesinger.
oh, Armorer gets int attacks too?!?! Oh then it is HANDS DOWN better than EK, no question at all.
Yeah, I agree. Although I do find it conceptually amusing to pick the Guardian Armor model while wearing light armor if multiclassing with Bladesinger.
Yeah honestly I think Battlesmith is the better option IMO as you get the same INT based weapon and the defender that imposes DIS on attacks against you.
Then you can Wish for a simulacrum and both of you can gang up on someone with Shadowblade/Boomer blade. You both get Action Surge too so you can beat up someone real good.
Nah you don't get enough ASIs with that build.
PS: I know you are just joking :D
PPS: Or are you?!?!?! :P
You could just go straight wizard then if you want that last ASI.
If you pick spell mastery with Shadowblade your simulacrum never has to worry about not having slots for it at 2nd level at least.
Plus you can cast Shield at will so your AC is just crazy high.
You can even have your sim just stand back and cast slow on your enemy or some other debuff. If they get hurt just cast wish again the next day and get a new one.
Ok so assuming you are not joking, a 13BS/7EK can actually cast Simulacrum albeit having to use 12 hrs to cast + the components which shouldn't be an issue at lvl 20. This still leaves the Simulacrum with a 8th level spell slot to cast Shadow Blade with so technically 13BS/7EK is still better than 18BS/2Fighter.
Then you can Wish for a simulacrum and both of you can gang up on someone with Shadowblade/Boomer blade. You both get Action Surge too so you can beat up someone real good.
Nah you don't get enough ASIs with that build.
PS: I know you are just joking :D
PPS: Or are you?!?!?! :P
You could just go straight wizard then if you want that last ASI.
If you pick spell mastery with Shadowblade your simulacrum never has to worry about not having slots for it at 2nd level at least.
Plus you can cast Shield at will so your AC is just crazy high.
You can even have your sim just stand back and cast slow on your enemy or some other debuff. If they get hurt just cast wish again the next day and get a new one.
Ok so assuming you are not joking, a 13BS/7EK can actually cast Simulacrum albeit having to use 12 hrs to cast + the components which shouldn't be an issue at lvl 20. This still leaves the Simulacrum with a 8th level spell slot to cast Shadow Blade with so technically 13BS/7EK is still better than 18BS/2Fighter.
I mean....Wish....thats all I have to say.
Wish is better than anything fighter gives you by a large margin.
If your battleplan really revolves around casting Shadow Blade every combat, all the more reason to pick an MC build that would get you more spell slots sooner, rather than EK which will starve you of them. A Bladesinger 6/Armorer 5/Fighter 2 casts Shadow Blade as a Bonus and then follows up with an attack and a Booming BladeAttack action just as effectively as a Bladesinger 6/EK 7, but has two more spell slots.
...
But I'm realizing now that EK does have one thing major going for it: the bonus action from War Magic isn't required to be a melee weapon attack. One-handed ranged weapons are a little rare, but an Armorer using Lightning Launcher can use Sharpshooter with its 1d6 (+1d6) int-based gauntlet. Or, any character can use it with a Dex-based hrown Dart. But ordinarily, you can't get a Bonus Action attack with a Dart or the Lightning Launcher, since ranged weapons don't work with TWF... You can with a Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert, but given that it ends up causing a whole bunch of headaches with free hands and Ammunition, dual wielding a rapier and hand crossbow isn't a great solution for a Bladesinger unless an Artificer gives them Repeating Shot on it anyway, and that still takes a Feat....
But an EK 7 can make Bonus Action dart throws (or Lightning zaps) after an Attack+Cantrip Attack action. So, if we picture a Sword + Dart (or, Shadow Blade + Dart, or Shadow Blade + Lightning Launcher with a minor in Artificer) EK 7/Bladesinger 6 with Sharpshooter.... I think that we can potentially start pushing some new envelopes of damage, if that Bonus Action can reliably be made as a d4+15 (Dart) or d6+d6+15 (armorer) ranged attack instead of a boring old 2d8+5 melee attack with Shadow Blade.
oh, Armorer gets int attacks too?!?! Oh then it is HANDS DOWN better than EK, no question at all.
Yeah, I agree. Although I do find it conceptually amusing to pick the Guardian Armor model while wearing light armor if multiclassing with Bladesinger.
Yeah honestly I think Battlesmith is the better option IMO as you get the same INT based weapon and the defender that imposes DIS on attacks against you.
I agree, mostly on the basis of being able to use a non-gauntlet weapon. Not a huge fan of the defender's HP not scaling up because of the MC, but I do recognize its usefulness regardless.
Regarding the armorer 3/bladesinger X build: can an armorer cast booming blade while attacking with their gauntlets? I remember seeing a conversation about it in an armorer thread revolving around the cost or lack thereof of said gauntlets, but didn't follow it long enough to see a conclusion.
If your battleplan really revolves around casting Shadow Blade every combat, all the more reason to pick an MC build that would get you more spell slots sooner, rather than EK which will starve you of them. A Bladesinger 6/Armorer 5/Fighter 2 casts Shadow Blade as a Bonus and then follows up with an attack and a Booming BladeAttack action just as effectively as a Bladesinger 6/EK 7, but has two more spell slots.
...
But I'm realizing now that EK does have one thing major going for it: the bonus action from War Magic isn't required to be a melee weapon attack. One-handed ranged weapons are a little rare, but an Armorer using Lightning Launcher can use Sharpshooter with its 1d6 (+1d6) int-based gauntlet. Or, any character can use it with a Dex-based hrown Dart. But ordinarily, you can't get a Bonus Action attack with a Dart or the Lightning Launcher, since ranged weapons don't work with TWF... You can with a [Tooltip Not Found] and Crossbow Expert, but given that it ends up causing a whole bunch of headaches with free hands and Ammunition, dual wielding a rapier and hand crossbow isn't a great solution for a Bladesinger unless an Artificer gives them Repeating Shot on it anyway, and that still takes a Feat....
But an EK 7 can make Bonus Action dart throws (or Lightning zaps) after an Attack+Cantrip Attack action. So, if we picture a Sword + Dart (or, Shadow Blade + Dart, or Shadow Blade + Lightning Launcher with a minor in Artificer) EK 7/Bladesinger 6 with Sharpshooter.... I think that we can potentially start pushing some new envelopes of damage, if that Bonus Action can reliably be made as a d4+15 (Dart) or d6+d6+15 (armorer) ranged attack instead of a boring old 2d8+5 melee attack with Shadow Blade.
yeah I can actually see that if you're going to stop at 13 this might be the better bill but if you're going to go all the way the 20 it's a no-brainer to just go with wizard
Re: the gauntlet cost question... I think its a pretty unfair way to stop a Shadow Blade being used to its intended purpose, so I already disregard that 1 gp cost nerf there. I'm certainly not going to be any harder on the gauntlet, which has the benefit of being an actual tangible item that presumably would cost money to buy in a store, than I would on the magic shadow sword. Or like, just weld a gold coin onto it, boom, its a gauntlet that costs at least 1 gp now.
Sorry, I got the wrong quote. Someone else had argued that it wouldn't work and that was the intended quote.
I think that the idea would be two weapon fighting with the bladesinger which would give the same attack + cantrip Action and then a bonus action attack. Two weapon fighting style could give the attack modifier damage, but dueling would be better since you'd make three attacks with a scagtrip.
Others have mentioned it but I think it's worth mentioning again. It takes way too long to get the Bladesinger/ EK build online. Most campaigns are over by level 13. No way I would take that many levels off of Bladesinger for that. Building for multiclass synergies is strong when it's all about the short-term: gaining synergistic abilities early on in your career. By 13th level a straight Bladesinger has 7th level spells. War Magic can't shake a stick at that.
Being able to have a hand free is worth SOMETHING... but then again, your Bladesinger could be wielding a quarterstaff with PAM to accomplish the same (with smaller damage dice). Four feats as a Fighter 2/Bladesinger 18, or Fighter 2/Battle Smith 4/Bladesinger 14, is enough to max intelligence, take PAM, and still have Warcaster. I think those extra spell levels are worth it... but if you really don’t mind fewer spells, and want more feats, I guess the EK has some kinda niche it’s okay in. Even then, I still think I’d rather be a Bladesinger 14/Psi Warrior or Battlemaster 6 rather than a Bladesinger 13/EK 7 or Bladesinger 11/EK 9 or 10/10 or whatever, though.
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The second paragraph of armor model says:
Each model includes a special weapon. When you attack with that weapon, you can add your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to the attack and damage rolls.
It doesn't help any other weapon, but does allow for int on those attacks.
if you are only going to level 8 or so I could see the justification for a 2 level fighter dip to get Action Surge at the end to really pump out damage. You could open with a fireball then action surge into your attack/cantrip. You could also Mind Sliver/attack then hit them with a Hold Person or something similar.
oh, Armorer gets int attacks too?!?! Oh then it is HANDS DOWN better than EK, no question at all.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
At level 20 a 13BS/7EK can output some very nice damage. They can on the First Round attack with a 5d8 Shadow Blade and then top it off with a Booming Blade. Subsequent turns they get in 2 Shadow Blade hits with a Booming Blade.
With Action Surge they can do impressive single target burst or pull off sick Wizard combos like Forcecage + Sickening Radiance.
Or you do Bladesinger 18/Fighter 2.
Then you can Wish for a simulacrum and both of you can gang up on someone with Shadowblade/Boomer blade. You both get Action Surge too so you can beat up someone real good.
Nah you don't get enough ASIs with that build.
PS: I know you are just joking :D
PPS: Or are you?!?!?! :P
You could just go straight wizard then if you want that last ASI.
If you pick spell mastery with Shadowblade your simulacrum never has to worry about not having slots for it at 2nd level at least.
Plus you can cast Shield at will so your AC is just crazy high.
You can even have your sim just stand back and cast slow on your enemy or some other debuff. If they get hurt just cast wish again the next day and get a new one.
It looks like an Arrmorer 3+/Bladesinger14+ would get to add their intelligence modifier twice to their melee attacks. Both gauntlets are simple weapons if you aren't holding anything in them and the armor is your spellcasting focus, which alleviates the need to hold something in either. Nothing suggests that they are light, so grabbing dual wielder would allow you to attack with both via TWF. The hiccup could come with Booming Blade, since the gauntlet doesn't have a stated value of 1 sp or more. The DM might disallow it as such. Being able to get Thunderclap would be a nice backup cantrip for AOE. Dampening field makes up for the D6/D8 hit die combo to an extent and being able to change from Guardian to Infiltrator after any rest allows for some heavy flexibility. You can doff or don your armor as an action, which means that you could theoretically carry a heavy armor and a light armor option, go fighter 2 for Action Surge, and be transition from non-Bladesinger to Bladesinger or vice versa in one turn. Interesting.
Yeah, I agree. Although I do find it conceptually amusing to pick the Guardian Armor model while wearing light armor if multiclassing with Bladesinger.
Yeah honestly I think Battlesmith is the better option IMO as you get the same INT based weapon and the defender that imposes DIS on attacks against you.
Ok so assuming you are not joking, a 13BS/7EK can actually cast Simulacrum albeit having to use 12 hrs to cast + the components which shouldn't be an issue at lvl 20. This still leaves the Simulacrum with a 8th level spell slot to cast Shadow Blade with so technically 13BS/7EK is still better than 18BS/2Fighter.
I mean....Wish....thats all I have to say.
Wish is better than anything fighter gives you by a large margin.
If your battleplan really revolves around casting Shadow Blade every combat, all the more reason to pick an MC build that would get you more spell slots sooner, rather than EK which will starve you of them. A Bladesinger 6/Armorer 5/Fighter 2 casts Shadow Blade as a Bonus and then follows up with an attack and a Booming Blade Attack action just as effectively as a Bladesinger 6/EK 7, but has two more spell slots.
...
But I'm realizing now that EK does have one thing major going for it: the bonus action from War Magic isn't required to be a melee weapon attack. One-handed ranged weapons are a little rare, but an Armorer using Lightning Launcher can use Sharpshooter with its 1d6 (+1d6) int-based gauntlet. Or, any character can use it with a Dex-based hrown Dart. But ordinarily, you can't get a Bonus Action attack with a Dart or the Lightning Launcher, since ranged weapons don't work with TWF... You can with a Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert, but given that it ends up causing a whole bunch of headaches with free hands and Ammunition, dual wielding a rapier and hand crossbow isn't a great solution for a Bladesinger unless an Artificer gives them Repeating Shot on it anyway, and that still takes a Feat....
But an EK 7 can make Bonus Action dart throws (or Lightning zaps) after an Attack+Cantrip Attack action. So, if we picture a Sword + Dart (or, Shadow Blade + Dart, or Shadow Blade + Lightning Launcher with a minor in Artificer) EK 7/Bladesinger 6 with Sharpshooter.... I think that we can potentially start pushing some new envelopes of damage, if that Bonus Action can reliably be made as a d4+15 (Dart) or d6+d6+15 (armorer) ranged attack instead of a boring old 2d8+5 melee attack with Shadow Blade.
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I agree, mostly on the basis of being able to use a non-gauntlet weapon. Not a huge fan of the defender's HP not scaling up because of the MC, but I do recognize its usefulness regardless.
Regarding the armorer 3/bladesinger X build: can an armorer cast booming blade while attacking with their gauntlets? I remember seeing a conversation about it in an armorer thread revolving around the cost or lack thereof of said gauntlets, but didn't follow it long enough to see a conclusion.
yeah I can actually see that if you're going to stop at 13 this might be the better bill but if you're going to go all the way the 20 it's a no-brainer to just go with wizard
Re: the gauntlet cost question... I think its a pretty unfair way to stop a Shadow Blade being used to its intended purpose, so I already disregard that 1 gp cost nerf there. I'm certainly not going to be any harder on the gauntlet, which has the benefit of being an actual tangible item that presumably would cost money to buy in a store, than I would on the magic shadow sword. Or like, just weld a gold coin onto it, boom, its a gauntlet that costs at least 1 gp now.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.