And that is why you should discuss character progression and planed builds with your DM a few lvls in advance, to avoid situations like this after you took those lvls. 🙂
Same discussion, same two arguments. First post agrees with Optimus, last one with me. None of them is made by a WoTC source. So we are back to ask your DM. 🤷♂️
Edit:
Actually it includes a voting system, so you can see that his interpretation is more popular.
It isn’t only that the two features can’t add together because of the language in the multi classing section... it is also that the bladesinger’s Extra Attack feature explicitly describes two attacks, not three. There is no language anywhere in the PHB which suggests that you can read half of a feature and ignore the part that you don’t like. You have the ability to make two attacks as the attack action with one of the two being a cantrip, and also the ability to make three attacks as the attack action... but you will not find any language on your character sheet that allows you to make three attacks as the attack action with one of them being a cantrip. That would require you to paraphrase and stitch language together from two features, which the PHB never endorses, even if it did not also have language explicitly forbidding this in the context of extra attack.
My friend and I were discussing it, and Eldritch Knight + Bladesinger could be good if youre willing to take alot of levels in fighter. At 7th level, EKs get War Magic which says:
"Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."
I'm not sure if theres an official ruling on how this interacts with the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, but one could argue that casting a cantrip as part of that Extra Attack would allow you to make a bonus action weapon attack as well. Thus you're bladesinger could make 2 weapon attacks and cast a cantrip on its turn.
I can't stop thinking about this... EK 7/Bladesinger 6 certainly still leaves a healthy amount of room for further shennanigans...
One question to answer would be, does Bladesinger's unique Extra Attack mechanics stack with Figher's unique Extra Attack mechanics? I.E., if you're a Fighter 11/Bladesinger 6, can you attack three times per attack action and replace one attack with a cantrip? Or, do you have a choice between "Attack - Fighter" (three attacks) and "Attack - Wizard" (one attack & one cantrip)? I think you aren't allowed to merge them, since the multiclassing section provides "If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together." That was written well before Bladesinger's unique Extra Attack was even a twinkle in anyone's eye, and at the time was talking about not adding multiple attacks together to get more than 2 unless a single class (Fighter) tells you to do so... but that isn't to say that authors didn't rely on it as intended when they later wrote a new Bladesinger version but used the old name.
So, assuming you can't be an EK 11/Bladesinger 6 and have an Action (Cantrip-Attack-Attack) + Bonus (Attack) rotation... there's still some other ways to squeeze in more attacks. We've Cruelty from the BH Mutant, but that takes 11 levels, no go.... we've got Ranger Gloomstalker, though that only applies in the first round of combat. We've got Haste, though it only provides one more physical Attack, not a second full Attack action, or an enhancement to the number of attacks within the Attack action. We've got Beast Barbarian's claw, but that will preclude the cantrip entirely. Samurai's Rapid Strike could provide another weapon attack within an attack action, but that obviously precludes being an EK, and is too high level to boot... same with Echo Knight's third level Unleash Incarnation. Am I missing another class feature that's within 7 levels, that we could tack on?
Really, EK still isn't doing much, if you remember that Bonus Action isn't really doing anything that Polearm Master or even just regular Two-Weapon Fighting would do. A Bloodhunter Mutant 11/Bladesinger with PAM or who dual wields would have no problems turning out 4 attacks in a round. A Monk/Bladesinger also would have no problems with 4 attacks in a round. Action Surge obviously is exciting, but actually better on those than it is on the EK (EK/Bladesinger does 5 attacks, Fighter 2/Bladesinger/Monk or Mutant does 7). A Sorcerer/Bladesinger would be able to pump out a quickened Bonus cantrip instead of a Bonus Attack, probably doing significantly more damage...
Once again, EK feels like it should be a thematic choice to merge with a gish... but there isn't actually as much synergy there as it first appears, the thing it says its good at (merging spells with melee attacks) is accomplished better by so many other classes!
EK lvl 11 Extra attack will not stack with Bladesinger's Extra attack feature. I have been tinkering with a EK/Bladesinger build for a bit and the best split in my opinion is something along the lines of 7 EK/13 BS or 8 EK/12 BS. It comes down to whether you want an extra ASI vs access to lvl 7 spells and more spell slots.
It won't stack but you can choose to attack three times or attack 1 time and cantrip 1 time. You still have both extra attacks. Previously it didn't mean anything because they did precisely the same thing, only varying the number of attacks. This is a little different.
Either way, having two attacks plus a cantrip every turn is going to be super strong since cantrips scale with your total level. It would arguably be better damage than just making three weapon attacks as a fighter (before considering things like GWM or Sharpshooter). Of course, on the wizard side, the heavy dip into fighter does result in a loss of quite a few spell slots. Also, unfortunately, the combo really doesn't work in Tier 1 or Tier 2 campaigns, and will probably feel a bit awkward if you are slowly building up from level 1 to your full build.
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An Armorer could be making a bonus action d8 TWF attack, and picking up better slot progression than EK, and also having real tangible features instead of EK “my sword is summonable” fluff. Or, a Battlesmith that invested in Dual Wielder feat, or just uses light weapons.
EK just gives you nothing in this build, apart from Action Surge. Just stop at Fighter 2 and MC to something more realistic, or even just go pure Bladesinger after F2.
Also your example of Channel Divinity is covered on the same page which reads:
Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes.
So your 17cleric/3 paladin can use the paladin channel divinity 2 times between rests because that is the higher cap allowed by the 17 levels of cleric as it is written in the rules.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
Which is.... basically just TWF, if you’re a Bladesinger. 7 more fighter levels to unlock a single Bonus Action attack, which you can already do at Bladesinger 6 if you’re using short swords. IF using a shield were important, I could see some value... but Bladesingers can’t use shields. The synergy is an illusion, that feature is just a crappier Dual Wielder feat+TWF style, letting you use a full size d8 martial weapon with your attack modifier to damage, but without a +1 AC. Seven levels of EK, you’ve gotten... TWO MC caster levels. Could have been Fighter 2/Bladesinger 5 during that same time for 3 more faster levels and spells and Bladesinger features. Or, Fighter 2/Battlesmith 5 for one more MC caster level AND intelligence attacks AND a steel defender AND infusions...
An Armorer could be making a bonus action d8 TWF attack, and picking up better slot progression than EK, and also having real tangible features instead of EK “my sword is summonable” fluff. Or, a Battlesmith that invested in Dual Wielder feat, or just uses light weapons.
EK just gives you nothing in this build, apart from Action Surge. Just stop at Fighter 2 and MC to something more realistic, or even just go pure Bladesinger after F2.
There is some wisdom in this. You have to desperately want to do the War Magic shenanigans or be willing to forgo Bladesong to be able to justify it. Having Bladesong could be the prison break fallback that unarmored defense and martial arts can be for characters that multiclass into monk or barbarian, but that's a tough sell. Wizards are pretty strong even without their subclass features, but going 13 levels to get your main shtick going is quite the investment.
It is not the same as two weapon fighting at all. Two weapon fighting gives you effectivley three weapon attacks. None of these attacks can benefit from GWM, so at most youll be dealing 3d8+15 nonmagical weapon damage.
With the War Magic/Bladesinger combo, you are making two attacks and casting a cantrip. That will be 2d8+10 weapon damage PLUS the damage of the cantrip, which at the level you have both features will be dealing anywhere from 3d6 to 3d10 magical damage. 2d8+10+3d10 is much better than 3d8+15 from TWF. Not to mention, for this build, you also only need one weapon and can keep your other hand free.
To put it shortly, being able to cast a cantrip is going to be better damage than a single extra attack.
Also your example of Channel Divinity is covered on the same page which reads:
Channel Divinity
If you already have the Channel Divinity feature and gain a level in a class that also grants the feature, you gain the Channel Divinity effects granted by that class, but getting the feature again doesn't give you an additional use of it. You gain additional uses only when you reach a class level that explicitly grants them to you. For example, if you are a cleric 6/paladin 4, you can use Channel Divinity twice between rests because you are high enough level in the cleric class to have more uses. Whenever you use the feature, you can choose any of the Channel Divinity effects available to you from your two classes.
So your 17cleric/3 paladin can use the paladin channel divinity 2 times between rests because that is the higher cap allowed by the 17 levels of cleric as it is written in the rules.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
lol why are you quoting me? I never argued you cannot do that....
It is not the same as two weapon fighting at all. Two weapon fighting gives you effectivley three weapon attacks. None of these attacks can benefit from GWM, so at most youll be dealing 3d8+15 nonmagical weapon damage.
With the War Magic/Bladesinger combo, you are making two attacks and casting a cantrip. That will be 2d8+10 weapon damage PLUS the damage of the cantrip, which at the level you have both features will be dealing anywhere from 3d6 to 3d10 magical damage. 2d8+10+3d10 is much better than 3d8+15 from TWF. Not to mention, for this build, you also only need one weapon and can keep your other hand free.
To put it shortly, being able to cast a cantrip is going to be better damage than a single extra attack.
But you need to be level 13 for this to come online....so while viable it will be a LONG time before you can start to do this.
Alternatively you could be a level 13 wizard and be one level away from level 7 spells and having a full on Simulacrum in a level.
If you want damage it would be better to go full fighter as you would have a build more in tune with full on damage.
This MC seems to be toeing the line between the two and it works but its going to cost you a lot in missed opportunity.
Bladesingers can’t use GWM, no two-handed attacks. A level 6 Bladesinger can make two d6 short sword attacks, + 1 GFB/BB cantrip. If they take Dual Wilder, those can be d8s, and +1 AC. With two levels of Fighter, they can have Action Surge and TWF style by level 8.
OR, you can be level 13 (Ek 7/Bladesinger 6) to do the same thing with one weapon, no +1 AC, and +2 damage/hit from Dueling. That doesn’t feel worth 5 levels of crappy spell progression to me, plus the opportunity cost of an utter lack of meaningful class features from the EK (except for a level 6 feat/ASI, that’s nice enough).
A Fighter 2/Armorer 5/Bladesinger 6 has two feats to play with for intelligence or strength, TWF style with D8s, and caster level 9. Not very efficient since thunder gauntlets are Str only, but Bladesinger can’t wear heavy armor... A Fighter 2/Battle Smith 5/ Bladesinger 6 has two feats to play with for Dex or intelligence, TWF style with d6s, and caster level 9. Very efficient, because can be SAD on intelligence, with a minor in Dex for AC.
A Fighter 2/Bladesinger 11 has two feats for intelligence and Dex, TWF style with d6s, and caster level 11.
An EK 7/Bladesinger 6 has three feats for intelligence or Dex, dueling or defense fighting style, d8s, and caster level 8.
I’d take the TWF Battle Smith or Bladesinger over the EK MC any day of the week.
Also you guys are not seeing the true potential of the EK/BS multiclass which is actually using 2 weapons. First Round you draw your normal weapon and cast Shadow Blade. Proceed to hit with Shadow Blade and cast Booming Blade. Next Rounds Attack with Shadow Blade, cast Booming Blade and attack with Shadow Blade again with your bonus action.
And you can throw in Action Surge if you need to burst something down.
It is not the same as two weapon fighting at all. Two weapon fighting gives you effectivley three weapon attacks. None of these attacks can benefit from GWM, so at most youll be dealing 3d8+15 nonmagical weapon damage.
With the War Magic/Bladesinger combo, you are making two attacks and casting a cantrip. That will be 2d8+10 weapon damage PLUS the damage of the cantrip, which at the level you have both features will be dealing anywhere from 3d6 to 3d10 magical damage. 2d8+10+3d10 is much better than 3d8+15 from TWF. Not to mention, for this build, you also only need one weapon and can keep your other hand free.
To put it shortly, being able to cast a cantrip is going to be better damage than a single extra attack.
But you need to be level 13 for this to come online....so while viable it will be a LONG time before you can start to do this.
Alternatively you could be a level 13 wizard and be one level away from level 7 spells and having a full on Simulacrum in a level.
If you want damage it would be better to go full fighter as you would have a build more in tune with full on damage.
This MC seems to be toeing the line between the two and it works but its going to cost you a lot in missed opportunity.
I agree its definitely a late game sort of build, and there wouldn't be much benefit early on. I simply disagree that its only as good as TWF. 11th level cantrips do a significant amount of damage, and might also apply a debuff to the target.
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Which is.... basically just TWF, if you’re a Bladesinger. 7 more fighter levels to unlock a single Bonus Action attack, which you can already do at Bladesinger 6 if you’re using short swords. IF using a shield were important, I could see some value... but Bladesingers can’t use shields. The synergy is an illusion, that feature is just a crappier Dual Wielder feat+TWF style, letting you use a full size d8 martial weapon with your attack modifier to damage, but without a +1 AC. Seven levels of EK, you’ve gotten... TWO MC caster levels. Could have been Fighter 2/Bladesinger 5 during that same time for 3 more faster levels and spells and Bladesinger features. Or, Fighter 2/Battlesmith 5 for one more MC caster level AND intelligence attacks AND a steel defender AND infusions...
EK is wasteful.
It does give you the ability to use defensive fighting style or dueling fighting style onto instead of two weapon fighting style. An extra ASI at fighter 6 which could be used for any number of things. 2 more HP per fighter level than wizards level and 1 more than Artificer. The weapon bond thing can be useful for a thrown weapon version. It's definitely more for certain niche builds than anything else. And it's certainly better for one shots, especially if you decide to limit dexterity and strength to the absolute minimum needed. Going Artifcer 3-4, Fighter 7-9, and wizard 7-9 could give you an interesting build at the end of building it, but you'd be making sacrifices throughout just to make it work. Fighter 1 to get the con saves an improved HP makes sense. Then you have to choose about continuing on in fighter until 5 or 6 to get your extra attack, going into Artificer 3-4 to get attacks with intelligence, or wizard 6 to get extra attack. That's a lot of time without 1 of extra attack or attacks made on a lower attack stat.
There are some nice perks, but the costs are significant to achieve it and many build adjacent options aren't as demanding.
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And that is why you should discuss character progression and planed builds with your DM a few lvls in advance, to avoid situations like this after you took those lvls. 🙂
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/177873/how-does-the-altered-extra-attack-feature-of-the-bladesinger-tashas-cauldron-v
Same discussion, same two arguments. First post agrees with Optimus, last one with me. None of them is made by a WoTC source. So we are back to ask your DM. 🤷♂️
Edit:
Actually it includes a voting system, so you can see that his interpretation is more popular.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]It isn’t only that the two features can’t add together because of the language in the multi classing section... it is also that the bladesinger’s Extra Attack feature explicitly describes two attacks, not three. There is no language anywhere in the PHB which suggests that you can read half of a feature and ignore the part that you don’t like. You have the ability to make two attacks as the attack action with one of the two being a cantrip, and also the ability to make three attacks as the attack action... but you will not find any language on your character sheet that allows you to make three attacks as the attack action with one of them being a cantrip. That would require you to paraphrase and stitch language together from two features, which the PHB never endorses, even if it did not also have language explicitly forbidding this in the context of extra attack.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yeah its a choice between the two IMO. Its a good choice depending on the situation.
3/2=1.5 rounded up is 2 which isn't 3. A one level dip is the same slot progression, but everything else suffers.
It won't stack but you can choose to attack three times or attack 1 time and cantrip 1 time. You still have both extra attacks. Previously it didn't mean anything because they did precisely the same thing, only varying the number of attacks. This is a little different.
Either way, having two attacks plus a cantrip every turn is going to be super strong since cantrips scale with your total level. It would arguably be better damage than just making three weapon attacks as a fighter (before considering things like GWM or Sharpshooter). Of course, on the wizard side, the heavy dip into fighter does result in a loss of quite a few spell slots. Also, unfortunately, the combo really doesn't work in Tier 1 or Tier 2 campaigns, and will probably feel a bit awkward if you are slowly building up from level 1 to your full build.
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An Armorer could be making a bonus action d8 TWF attack, and picking up better slot progression than EK, and also having real tangible features instead of EK “my sword is summonable” fluff. Or, a Battlesmith that invested in Dual Wielder feat, or just uses light weapons.
EK just gives you nothing in this build, apart from Action Surge. Just stop at Fighter 2 and MC to something more realistic, or even just go pure Bladesinger after F2.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
War Magic
Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
It doesn't say that you have to use the Cast a Spell Action, just that you have to use your action to cast a cantrip.
Extra Attack
6th-level Bladesinging feature
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
You are using your action to attack and to cast a cantrip. War Magic is triggered off of Bladesinger extra attack.
Which is.... basically just TWF, if you’re a Bladesinger. 7 more fighter levels to unlock a single Bonus Action attack, which you can already do at Bladesinger 6 if you’re using short swords. IF using a shield were important, I could see some value... but Bladesingers can’t use shields. The synergy is an illusion, that feature is just a crappier Dual Wielder feat+TWF style, letting you use a full size d8 martial weapon with your attack modifier to damage, but without a +1 AC. Seven levels of EK, you’ve gotten... TWO MC caster levels. Could have been Fighter 2/Bladesinger 5 during that same time for 3 more faster levels and spells and Bladesinger features. Or, Fighter 2/Battlesmith 5 for one more MC caster level AND intelligence attacks AND a steel defender AND infusions...
EK is wasteful.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
There is some wisdom in this. You have to desperately want to do the War Magic shenanigans or be willing to forgo Bladesong to be able to justify it. Having Bladesong could be the prison break fallback that unarmored defense and martial arts can be for characters that multiclass into monk or barbarian, but that's a tough sell. Wizards are pretty strong even without their subclass features, but going 13 levels to get your main shtick going is quite the investment.
It is not the same as two weapon fighting at all. Two weapon fighting gives you effectivley three weapon attacks. None of these attacks can benefit from GWM, so at most youll be dealing 3d8+15 nonmagical weapon damage.
With the War Magic/Bladesinger combo, you are making two attacks and casting a cantrip. That will be 2d8+10 weapon damage PLUS the damage of the cantrip, which at the level you have both features will be dealing anywhere from 3d6 to 3d10 magical damage. 2d8+10+3d10 is much better than 3d8+15 from TWF. Not to mention, for this build, you also only need one weapon and can keep your other hand free.
To put it shortly, being able to cast a cantrip is going to be better damage than a single extra attack.
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lol why are you quoting me? I never argued you cannot do that....
But you need to be level 13 for this to come online....so while viable it will be a LONG time before you can start to do this.
Alternatively you could be a level 13 wizard and be one level away from level 7 spells and having a full on Simulacrum in a level.
If you want damage it would be better to go full fighter as you would have a build more in tune with full on damage.
This MC seems to be toeing the line between the two and it works but its going to cost you a lot in missed opportunity.
Bladesingers can’t use GWM, no two-handed attacks. A level 6 Bladesinger can make two d6 short sword attacks, + 1 GFB/BB cantrip. If they take Dual Wilder, those can be d8s, and +1 AC. With two levels of Fighter, they can have Action Surge and TWF style by level 8.
OR, you can be level 13 (Ek 7/Bladesinger 6) to do the same thing with one weapon, no +1 AC, and +2 damage/hit from Dueling. That doesn’t feel worth 5 levels of crappy spell progression to me, plus the opportunity cost of an utter lack of meaningful class features from the EK (except for a level 6 feat/ASI, that’s nice enough).
A Fighter 2/Armorer 5/Bladesinger 6 has two feats to play with for intelligence or strength, TWF style with D8s, and caster level 9. Not very efficient since thunder gauntlets are Str only, but Bladesinger can’t wear heavy armor...
A Fighter 2/Battle Smith 5/ Bladesinger 6 has two feats to play with for Dex or intelligence, TWF style with d6s, and caster level 9. Very efficient, because can be SAD on intelligence, with a minor in Dex for AC.
A Fighter 2/Bladesinger 11 has two feats for intelligence and Dex, TWF style with d6s, and caster level 11.
An EK 7/Bladesinger 6 has three feats for intelligence or Dex, dueling or defense fighting style, d8s, and caster level 8.
I’d take the TWF Battle Smith or Bladesinger over the EK MC any day of the week.
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Also you guys are not seeing the true potential of the EK/BS multiclass which is actually using 2 weapons. First Round you draw your normal weapon and cast Shadow Blade. Proceed to hit with Shadow Blade and cast Booming Blade. Next Rounds Attack with Shadow Blade, cast Booming Blade and attack with Shadow Blade again with your bonus action.
And you can throw in Action Surge if you need to burst something down.
I agree its definitely a late game sort of build, and there wouldn't be much benefit early on. I simply disagree that its only as good as TWF. 11th level cantrips do a significant amount of damage, and might also apply a debuff to the target.
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EK adds nothing to that hypothetical until EK 18. Which precludes any real Bladesinger synergy. ????
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It does give you the ability to use defensive fighting style or dueling fighting style onto instead of two weapon fighting style. An extra ASI at fighter 6 which could be used for any number of things. 2 more HP per fighter level than wizards level and 1 more than Artificer. The weapon bond thing can be useful for a thrown weapon version. It's definitely more for certain niche builds than anything else. And it's certainly better for one shots, especially if you decide to limit dexterity and strength to the absolute minimum needed. Going Artifcer 3-4, Fighter 7-9, and wizard 7-9 could give you an interesting build at the end of building it, but you'd be making sacrifices throughout just to make it work. Fighter 1 to get the con saves an improved HP makes sense. Then you have to choose about continuing on in fighter until 5 or 6 to get your extra attack, going into Artificer 3-4 to get attacks with intelligence, or wizard 6 to get extra attack. That's a lot of time without 1 of extra attack or attacks made on a lower attack stat.
There are some nice perks, but the costs are significant to achieve it and many build adjacent options aren't as demanding.