Your aarakocra dhampir might still have wings, but they have so fundamentally changed that they cannot use them to fly. They're vestigial. I would prefer templates that don't actually add meaningful combat bonuses, something closer to the Half-Dragon template from the MM, but that's not the direction WotC is going on.
Your aarakocra dhampir might still have wings, but they have so fundamentally changed that they cannot use them to fly. They're vestigial. I would prefer templates that don't actually add meaningful combat bonuses, something closer to the Half-Dragon template from the MM, but that's not the direction WotC is going on.
The problem is, Lore-wise and logically, that makes no sense. Those wings still exist on the Aarakocra in perfectly fine condition. Regardless of what other scenario you think of, By default, an Aarakocra doesn't lose their wings. Regardless if it's Dhampire, Hexblood or Reborn.
The problem is you have an Aarakocra with perfectly fine wings, but cannot use them. That simply makes no sense. Trying to make another scenario that fits removing them simply dances around the real issue.
Unless stated otherwise in lore or specifically in the lineage, an Aarakocra doesn't lose their wings. Therefor they should be able to use them.
This extends to all races and their unique racial traits such as water breathing, shells, etc.
The solution, Sgt. Teddy, is to disallow Gothic lineages at your table. For many players, if Gothic lineages became free-and-easy bolt-ons that didn't affect the base character in the slightest, they would lose most of their impact. The fact that they override and destroy existing species traits is part of what makes them compelling. You can't tell a story about becoming a monster and fighting off your monstrous impulses if you're just a regular-ass dood with a bunch of free superpowers and no real reason to fight your 'monstrous impulses' at all.
The solution, Sgt. Teddy, is to disallow Gothic lineages at your table. For many players, if Gothic lineages became fgree-and-easy bolt-ons that didn't affect the base character in the slightest, they would lose most of their impact. The fact that they override and destroy existing species traits is part of what makes them compelling. You can't tell a story about becoming a monster and fighting off your monstrous impulses if you're just a regular-ass dood with a bunch of free superpowers and no real reason to fight your 'monstrous impulses' at all.
You should read my posts, not just gloss over them.
I specifically say that you should have to choose from a list of flaws. In fact, I state that it would be fun to have said flaws.
The idea that after an X amount of days, you MUST feed in some form or another? Puts the player in a position where they have to play out their role as a Dhampir.
Removing Gothic Lineages is simply not the correct solution.
I am reading your posts. They're all arguing that a player shouldn't have to give up one single solitary gorram thing to become a Gothic monster. I disagree. Strenuously. Saying "well if you pick dhampir you should need to feed!" isn't an answer, it's a basic assumption of playing a dhampir. Dhampir that try to ignore their thirst - out of character, i.e. the player trying to gloss over it rather than the character fighting their instincts - is a problem.
You want these lineages to have no impact at all on the base species. That is not the way I, or many other players, believe they should work. The fact that you don't like my disagreement with you doesn't mean I don't disagree with you, or that my focusing on points you find inconsequential is itself inconsequential.
I am reading your posts. They're all arguing that a player shouldn't have to give up one single solitary gorram thing to become a Gothic monster. I disagree. Strenuously. Saying "well if you pick dhampir you should need to feed!" isn't an answer, it's a basic assumption of playing a dhampir. Dhampir that try to ignore their thirst - out of character, i.e. the player trying to gloss over it rather than the character fighting their instincts - is a problem.
You want these lineages to have no impact at all on the base species. That is not the way I, or many other players, believe they should work. The fact that you don't like my disagreement with you doesn't mean I don't disagree with you, or that my focusing on points you find inconsequential is itself inconsequential.
"That is not the way I, or many other players, believe they should work."
Anecdotal. That's what you feel, that's not an argument. You didn't have a survey and asked everyone what they truly felt. A few people on a forum doesn't constitute as "Many other players"
The simple fact is; your argument has little ground. Aarakocra becomes a Dhampir? Doesn't lose their wings, Period. That's not an argument. There is no part of the Lineage System OR Lore that says they would lose their wings.
That's where all this comes from. What I am stating is undeniable fact, it's not an opinion.
I'm asking the Devs clarify this issue and clearly define what is retained and what is lost.
The argument Midnight already gave you - the developers already clearly defined what is retained and what is lost. What is retained is your background and class levels; what is lost is any traits from your original species. That's as clear as it gets.
You say aarakocra cannot possibly lose their wings? Sure. They also can't become dhampir. Or hexblooded. Or Reborn.
You say it's Irrefutable Proof that an aarakocra doesn't lose its wings when it becomes a dhampir. Says who? Do you know the process by which any given critter becomes a dhampir? This is Gothic Horror, Sergeant. These transformations are supposed to twist you to the very soul, make you question your sanity, warp your flesh and make you into something utterly alien to your previous self. This is not simply taking a feat that says you get cool new magical superpowers because game rules. If you can't reconcile birbmen or turtlebois losing their shit because they got Goth'd, don't let them get Goth'd.
I really don't get why you and these others are all so dead-set on turning the Gothic Lineages into shitty Halloween costumes characters can just put on or take off as they please. This isn't a Remove Curse situation, guy.
Your aarakocra dhampir might still have wings, but they have so fundamentally changed that they cannot use them to fly. They're vestigial. I would prefer templates that don't actually add meaningful combat bonuses, something closer to the Half-Dragon template from the MM, but that's not the direction WotC is going on.
The problem is, Lore-wise and logically, that makes no sense. Those wings still exist on the Aarakocra in perfectly fine condition. Regardless of what other scenario you think of, By default, an Aarakocra doesn't lose their wings. Regardless if it's Dhampire, Hexblood or Reborn.
The problem is you have an Aarakocra with perfectly fine wings, but cannot use them. That simply makes no sense. Trying to make another scenario that fits removing them simply dances around the real issue.
Unless stated otherwise in lore or specifically in the lineage, an Aarakocra doesn't lose their wings. Therefor they should be able to use them.
This extends to all races and their unique racial traits such as water breathing, shells, etc.
What are you talking about? Vestigial wings and tails have existed on other player races before, even in 5th edition. Just because you have them doesn't mean they have to work.
The dhampir is not just a half-undead version of whatever base creature you want. It would be cool, but it's not. It's clearly its own thing. You might have hints of ancestry, you can cosmetically dress it up however you want, but that's it. The differences are merely skin deep. They're trappings. Fundamentally, at its core, the dhampir is no longer an aarakocra or tortle. It has been transubstantiated into something else entirely; whether during gestation or later on in life.
I think at my table the solution would be just DM work and homebrew to make some equivalent exchange. Like flying for spider climb or the bite. To that point though, do aarakocra even have teeth? Can they suck blood? It sounds more like buzzard feeding or at best physically taking chunks of flesh from the target, which I'd think would be harder than just a bite. Imo, aarakocra day walkers would most likely be scavengers given their propensity for neutral good alignments (though this doesn't necessarily apply to PCs).
The harder part is that once you start making trades from certain race traits, are you still even playing a vampire, hag, or zombuddy short of your RP work?
In theory I agree. Undead, planetouched, maybe even warforged should potentially be addons to existing races. It makes no sense that an aasimar lizardfolk can't bite people. In practice 5e just isn't set up like that, and would would end up with this overpowered super species with tons of benefits and no drawbacks.
If lineages were going to be addons, the game would need to be built that way from the start. Pathfinder 2e is a good example of this.
I think at my table the solution would be just DM work and homebrew to make some equivalent exchange. Like flying for spider climb or the bite. To that point though, do aarakocra even have teeth? Can they suck blood? It sounds more like buzzard feeding or at best physically taking chunks of flesh from the target, which I'd think would be harder than just a bite. Imo, aarakocra day walkers would most likely be scavengers given their propensity for neutral good alignments (though this doesn't necessarily apply to PCs).
The harder part is that once you start making trades from certain race traits, are you still even playing a vampire, hag, or zombuddy short of your RP work?
Donkleberg, may I introduce you to the wonderful natural horror that is the Vampire Finch?
I think at my table the solution would be just DM work and homebrew to make some equivalent exchange. Like flying for spider climb or the bite. To that point though, do aarakocra even have teeth? Can they suck blood? It sounds more like buzzard feeding or at best physically taking chunks of flesh from the target, which I'd think would be harder than just a bite. Imo, aarakocra day walkers would most likely be scavengers given their propensity for neutral good alignments (though this doesn't necessarily apply to PCs).
The harder part is that once you start making trades from certain race traits, are you still even playing a vampire, hag, or zombuddy short of your RP work?
Donkleberg, may I introduce you to the wonderful natural horror that is the Vampire Finch?
That's fair! After I posted I feared it would come off as purely rhetorical, so thank you for a good example. I know many birds are carnivores or omnivores. Honestly, I only offer the bite as a swap for the flying as I felt it made more sense in the moment.
In theory I agree. Undead, planetouched, maybe even warforged should potentially be addons to existing races. It makes no sense that an aasimar lizardfolk can't bite people. In practice 5e just isn't set up like that, and would would end up with this overpowered super species with tons of benefits and no drawbacks.
If lineages were going to be addons, the game would need to be built that way from the start. Pathfinder 2e is a good example of this.
If you want to completely reinvent the wheel, sure. Warforged is a setting-specific race and deserves to be its own thing. Planetouched races were always dominated by the otherworldly power of their planes; traditionally viewed as human+outsider. Setting aside that we don't even use the term Panetouched anymore, there have been aasimar and tieflings with nonhuman traits. Feathers, scales, vestigial wings and tails, the whole nine yards. And that's on top of more obvious physical traits like clearly nonhuman skin, hair, and eye color.
You can still have something of mixed parentage; if that's what you want. But the inherently magical outside side is going to practically overwhelm the other.
Just to add a personal anecdote; I had one of my players get infected by tiger lycanthropy. After a small discussion I gave it as a template (read: feat) over his existing race. Gave him + str, shapeshift and resistance instead of immunity. The only (mechanical) downside was a berserker effect if he got attacked & failed a roll. The RP downside was from the book; you resist it & you retain your alignment but the berserker trait stays and you turn on a full moon (I dont really have time pass too quickly so the only full moon we had was when me and the player introduced his lycanthropy to the group) but even then... the alternative is more control over shapeshifting and an alignment transfer to.... neutral? big woop the player already plays neutrally (I said he's lucky it was a tiger to at least get this option, if was a wolf or another evil lycan id let him enjoy it for a bit but a cure would be mandatory or turn into an evil NPC).
It was fun at first but at every chance I took to remind him it was a curse - NPCs un/conciously scared, his own guild master telling him to go find a cure, describing his own appearance as getting shaggier and more cat like.. And even though he was open to it in the beginning he completly shirks off any RP points i bring up or gets actively upset at any mechanical things... I admit I forget to ask for berserk saves but when I do he gets irritated (then again he also gets annoyed that he even gets targeted since he's playing ranged, even if he did triple the amount of damage of everyone else "why is he attacking ME? I'm all the way over here... me doing 50 dmg a round is irrelevant!!"), granted as a new DM I may not have seamlessly done things but got MAJORLY PISSED when I introduced a "moonbeam" trap that turned him for a few rounds (honestly just as a reminder., did not mean for it to be a detriment that specific time, and other than forcing to attack an enemy or 2 with claws before reverting, it wasn't so bad either) due to other differences the player doesn't really play with us any more but I planned a really cool encounter with blood hunters as well as an interesting method to either cure or even enhance the lycanthropy (I'm not against him having it, but like mentioned, he does not regard it as a curse, simply a straight buff of his Str score and his resistances... I also want to mention that wr do have a barbarian but then again the lycan only stays out of range with his SS feat so it's not a visible "stepping on toes" so it's ok.
that all being said players (including myself) definitely only care about the buffs and will find ways to mitigate all rebuffs unless it's (mechanically, not rp) HARDCODED and even then will look for ways around.
i would also like to say that having lineage templates would be cooler and open up tons of options but that being said 5e is NOT build for it and IMO revamping everything would be necessary but also IMO not worth it... compared to PF2 who actually does allow it ... but then again I dabbled around woth a builder app that I found, knowing nothing about it and I was hella confused... and this is coming from someone who is very good with these complex customization games
In theory I agree. Undead, planetouched, maybe even warforged should potentially be addons to existing races. It makes no sense that an aasimar lizardfolk can't bite people. In practice 5e just isn't set up like that, and would would end up with this overpowered super species with tons of benefits and no drawbacks.
If lineages were going to be addons, the game would need to be built that way from the start. Pathfinder 2e is a good example of this.
If you want to completely reinvent the wheel, sure. Warforged is a setting-specific race and deserves to be its own thing. Planetouched races were always dominated by the otherworldly power of their planes; traditionally viewed as human+outsider. Setting aside that we don't even use the term Panetouched anymore, there have been aasimar and tieflings with nonhuman traits. Feathers, scales, vestigial wings and tails, the whole nine yards. And that's on top of more obvious physical traits like clearly nonhuman skin, hair, and eye color.
You can still have something of mixed parentage; if that's what you want. But the inherently magical outside side is going to practically overwhelm the other.
The Returned can be used to make a Warforged just use Construct instead of undead, or call them a magic cyborg
In theory I agree. Undead, planetouched, maybe even warforged should potentially be addons to existing races. It makes no sense that an aasimar lizardfolk can't bite people. In practice 5e just isn't set up like that, and would would end up with this overpowered super species with tons of benefits and no drawbacks.
If lineages were going to be addons, the game would need to be built that way from the start. Pathfinder 2e is a good example of this.
If you want to completely reinvent the wheel, sure. Warforged is a setting-specific race and deserves to be its own thing. Planetouched races were always dominated by the otherworldly power of their planes; traditionally viewed as human+outsider. Setting aside that we don't even use the term Panetouched anymore, there have been aasimar and tieflings with nonhuman traits. Feathers, scales, vestigial wings and tails, the whole nine yards. And that's on top of more obvious physical traits like clearly nonhuman skin, hair, and eye color.
You can still have something of mixed parentage; if that's what you want. But the inherently magical outside side is going to practically overwhelm the other.
The Returned can be used to make a Warforged just use Construct instead of undead, or call them a magic cyborg
If you're going to bring Theros into the conversation and completely ignore the Anvilwrought, I question how seriously you take this.
Warforged is its own race. No ifs, and, or buts about it. It deserves to be treated as such. The problem with templates is they need to be balanced with negatives. Back in 3.X, this wasn't too big a problem since different templates would add on to a character's level. A 1st-level Dhampir was effectively a 3rd-level character and gained experience as such. But 5e isn't big on templates, or negatives in general. Of the big three in the Monster Manual (half-dragons, lycanthropes, and vampires), only one has significant drawbacks. And I can't think of any added to the game since.
I do think these gothic lineages would be better served thematically as templates to be added on existing creatures. I'd love to see them as such, and I may still use these to create my own templates after publication. But I can also see why they're opting to go in a different direction.
What really sticks in my craw is people complaining about how these lineages break from the established lore. That tells me they're not bothering to read the lore being presented with these lineages. It's arrogant, dismissive, and hardly worth a second thought.
You have a valid point here. I think the problem is balancing things though. Some people can see using lineages as a racial addon as overpowered. But, like you said, what happens to the physical features of a race? Such as the aarakocra's wings or a minataur's horns. As far as I know they don't just fall off.
My thought process is that applying a lineage should replace all of the base race's racial traits EXCEPT physical parts of a race (wings, tails, claws, horns, extra limbs, physical capabilities, etc.) and any damage resistances/vulnerabilities. Since both are integrated parts of the race, I think that they should coexist with traits given by a lineage.
For example, if I wanted to play a variant aasimar dhampir, I would get the humanoid/undead, spider climb, and vampiric bite traits from the dhampir lineage and then resistance to necrotic and radiant damage from the aasimar race. Likewise, if I were to play an aarakocra hexblood, I would gain all the traits from the hexblood and then flight and talons from the aaracokra.
The only exception I can see so far is in the case of playing a reborn that is made of multiple body parts stitched together. This has the potential to be really confusing. (For example, playing a reborn with a minotaur head, human torso, and limbs from who-knows-what.) You could probably make some pretty powerful, if not bizarre, combinations when playing a reborn this way.
Overall, I think that using physical traits from the base race alongside the traits from lineages could provide a good balance without being overpowered or underpowered. It also makes more sense than trying to figure out how to explain how a hexblood/aarakocra's wings fell off.
Just going to butt in here with my own take on it.
I would absolutely love the ability to have the lineages be addons and not replacements. As people have said before me, it doesn't make total sense (to me) that lineages replace all racial traits indiscriminately, including ones that are learned (such as languages) and not innate. If you're an English speaker by culture but learned how to speak German as a second language, you wouldn't just forget how to speak German just because you're now a lot hungrier than you used to be. You have the same worldly experience, even if you don't have the same body.
However, as it stands, 5th Edition is not equipped to handle addon lineages, because there is no clear definition as to what is an innate trait and what is a learned trait - other than the users' interpretation. You'd basically have to rework it from the ground up to make it an objective rule, such as splitting the general "Racial Traits" into two parts, called some variation on the theme of "Physical Traits" and "Cultural Traits".
I feel if WOTC were to actually work on a proper lineage system, it would likely be part of 6th Edition if that ever happens, since editions are meant to be reimaginings or rewrites of their predecessors and therefore an opportunity to right wrongs (or wrong rights, in the case of the pre-Tasha Ranger class). Currently, a "physical trait" and a "cultural trait" are entirely left to interpretation and DM purview, as there is no hard and fast rule for it that everyone must follow (even Tasha's options are still options), so trying to squeeze a lineage into a pre-existing race by mix-and-matching traits in the hopes that the end result isn't OP would prove more difficult than it's worth.
If you want lineage addons and you want them now, Pathfinder's probably your best bet, since it's similar enough to Dungeons and Dragons but allows a lot(!) of customisation.
And you all talked in extensive lenght as to why lineage do not work and should be dropped from th eget go. they cause much more problems then they solve any.
problem number #1 - You are just adding more and more to a system that wants less and less.
problem number #2 - by adding such a system, reguardless of how you do it, you create more and more power imbalance in a system that is designed to be streamlined.
problem number #3 - reguardless of how much drawback you think about, mathematically people will find the optimal way of getting everything without losing anything.
lineages are probably the worse way of going about this... i'd say the only way to make this happen is to go half and half... i would allow my players to choose one ability from the previous race and keep that one. that is it ! if they want to keep their flight speed, go for it... but thats all, their talons are gone.
its as simple as that.
as for the one who talked about reincarnation... well, people are ok with it, because they are never gonna use it to begin with. if you ask any players, they are far from ok with losing their race. their race to them, is what makes the charcater. if they change that, then you just changed the character core and they don't want to play it anymore. thus why nobody want to use reincarnation. they will go to greath length to find a resurection spell instead. i pushed my players often toward reincarnation, that over 30 players in over 10 groups over the course of 20 years... all of them without any exceptions, have always refused reincarnation for the reason above.
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Your aarakocra dhampir might still have wings, but they have so fundamentally changed that they cannot use them to fly. They're vestigial. I would prefer templates that don't actually add meaningful combat bonuses, something closer to the Half-Dragon template from the MM, but that's not the direction WotC is going on.
The problem is, Lore-wise and logically, that makes no sense. Those wings still exist on the Aarakocra in perfectly fine condition. Regardless of what other scenario you think of, By default, an Aarakocra doesn't lose their wings. Regardless if it's Dhampire, Hexblood or Reborn.
The problem is you have an Aarakocra with perfectly fine wings, but cannot use them. That simply makes no sense. Trying to make another scenario that fits removing them simply dances around the real issue.
Unless stated otherwise in lore or specifically in the lineage, an Aarakocra doesn't lose their wings. Therefor they should be able to use them.
This extends to all races and their unique racial traits such as water breathing, shells, etc.
The solution, Sgt. Teddy, is to disallow Gothic lineages at your table. For many players, if Gothic lineages became free-and-easy bolt-ons that didn't affect the base character in the slightest, they would lose most of their impact. The fact that they override and destroy existing species traits is part of what makes them compelling. You can't tell a story about becoming a monster and fighting off your monstrous impulses if you're just a regular-ass dood with a bunch of free superpowers and no real reason to fight your 'monstrous impulses' at all.
Please do not contact or message me.
You should read my posts, not just gloss over them.
I specifically say that you should have to choose from a list of flaws. In fact, I state that it would be fun to have said flaws.
The idea that after an X amount of days, you MUST feed in some form or another? Puts the player in a position where they have to play out their role as a Dhampir.
Removing Gothic Lineages is simply not the correct solution.
I am reading your posts. They're all arguing that a player shouldn't have to give up one single solitary gorram thing to become a Gothic monster. I disagree. Strenuously. Saying "well if you pick dhampir you should need to feed!" isn't an answer, it's a basic assumption of playing a dhampir. Dhampir that try to ignore their thirst - out of character, i.e. the player trying to gloss over it rather than the character fighting their instincts - is a problem.
You want these lineages to have no impact at all on the base species. That is not the way I, or many other players, believe they should work. The fact that you don't like my disagreement with you doesn't mean I don't disagree with you, or that my focusing on points you find inconsequential is itself inconsequential.
Please do not contact or message me.
"That is not the way I, or many other players, believe they should work."
Anecdotal. That's what you feel, that's not an argument. You didn't have a survey and asked everyone what they truly felt. A few people on a forum doesn't constitute as "Many other players"
The simple fact is; your argument has little ground. Aarakocra becomes a Dhampir? Doesn't lose their wings, Period. That's not an argument. There is no part of the Lineage System OR Lore that says they would lose their wings.
That's where all this comes from. What I am stating is undeniable fact, it's not an opinion.
I'm asking the Devs clarify this issue and clearly define what is retained and what is lost.
What possible argument do you have against that?
The argument Midnight already gave you - the developers already clearly defined what is retained and what is lost. What is retained is your background and class levels; what is lost is any traits from your original species. That's as clear as it gets.
You say aarakocra cannot possibly lose their wings? Sure. They also can't become dhampir. Or hexblooded. Or Reborn.
You say it's Irrefutable Proof that an aarakocra doesn't lose its wings when it becomes a dhampir. Says who? Do you know the process by which any given critter becomes a dhampir? This is Gothic Horror, Sergeant. These transformations are supposed to twist you to the very soul, make you question your sanity, warp your flesh and make you into something utterly alien to your previous self. This is not simply taking a feat that says you get cool new magical superpowers because game rules. If you can't reconcile birbmen or turtlebois losing their shit because they got Goth'd, don't let them get Goth'd.
I really don't get why you and these others are all so dead-set on turning the Gothic Lineages into shitty Halloween costumes characters can just put on or take off as they please. This isn't a Remove Curse situation, guy.
Please do not contact or message me.
What are you talking about? Vestigial wings and tails have existed on other player races before, even in 5th edition. Just because you have them doesn't mean they have to work.
The dhampir is not just a half-undead version of whatever base creature you want. It would be cool, but it's not. It's clearly its own thing. You might have hints of ancestry, you can cosmetically dress it up however you want, but that's it. The differences are merely skin deep. They're trappings. Fundamentally, at its core, the dhampir is no longer an aarakocra or tortle. It has been transubstantiated into something else entirely; whether during gestation or later on in life.
I think at my table the solution would be just DM work and homebrew to make some equivalent exchange. Like flying for spider climb or the bite. To that point though, do aarakocra even have teeth? Can they suck blood? It sounds more like buzzard feeding or at best physically taking chunks of flesh from the target, which I'd think would be harder than just a bite. Imo, aarakocra day walkers would most likely be scavengers given their propensity for neutral good alignments (though this doesn't necessarily apply to PCs).
The harder part is that once you start making trades from certain race traits, are you still even playing a vampire, hag, or zombuddy short of your RP work?
In theory I agree. Undead, planetouched, maybe even warforged should potentially be addons to existing races. It makes no sense that an aasimar lizardfolk can't bite people. In practice 5e just isn't set up like that, and would would end up with this overpowered super species with tons of benefits and no drawbacks.
If lineages were going to be addons, the game would need to be built that way from the start. Pathfinder 2e is a good example of this.
Donkleberg, may I introduce you to the wonderful natural horror that is the Vampire Finch?
That's fair! After I posted I feared it would come off as purely rhetorical, so thank you for a good example. I know many birds are carnivores or omnivores. Honestly, I only offer the bite as a swap for the flying as I felt it made more sense in the moment.
If you want to completely reinvent the wheel, sure. Warforged is a setting-specific race and deserves to be its own thing. Planetouched races were always dominated by the otherworldly power of their planes; traditionally viewed as human+outsider. Setting aside that we don't even use the term Panetouched anymore, there have been aasimar and tieflings with nonhuman traits. Feathers, scales, vestigial wings and tails, the whole nine yards. And that's on top of more obvious physical traits like clearly nonhuman skin, hair, and eye color.
You can still have something of mixed parentage; if that's what you want. But the inherently magical outside side is going to practically overwhelm the other.
@yurei and @sgtteddybear
Just to add a personal anecdote; I had one of my players get infected by tiger lycanthropy. After a small discussion I gave it as a template (read: feat) over his existing race. Gave him + str, shapeshift and resistance instead of immunity. The only (mechanical) downside was a berserker effect if he got attacked & failed a roll. The RP downside was from the book; you resist it & you retain your alignment but the berserker trait stays and you turn on a full moon (I dont really have time pass too quickly so the only full moon we had was when me and the player introduced his lycanthropy to the group) but even then... the alternative is more control over shapeshifting and an alignment transfer to.... neutral? big woop the player already plays neutrally (I said he's lucky it was a tiger to at least get this option, if was a wolf or another evil lycan id let him enjoy it for a bit but a cure would be mandatory or turn into an evil NPC).
It was fun at first but at every chance I took to remind him it was a curse - NPCs un/conciously scared, his own guild master telling him to go find a cure, describing his own appearance as getting shaggier and more cat like.. And even though he was open to it in the beginning he completly shirks off any RP points i bring up or gets actively upset at any mechanical things... I admit I forget to ask for berserk saves but when I do he gets irritated (then again he also gets annoyed that he even gets targeted since he's playing ranged, even if he did triple the amount of damage of everyone else "why is he attacking ME? I'm all the way over here... me doing 50 dmg a round is irrelevant!!"), granted as a new DM I may not have seamlessly done things but got MAJORLY PISSED when I introduced a "moonbeam" trap that turned him for a few rounds (honestly just as a reminder., did not mean for it to be a detriment that specific time, and other than forcing to attack an enemy or 2 with claws before reverting, it wasn't so bad either) due to other differences the player doesn't really play with us any more but I planned a really cool encounter with blood hunters as well as an interesting method to either cure or even enhance the lycanthropy (I'm not against him having it, but like mentioned, he does not regard it as a curse, simply a straight buff of his Str score and his resistances... I also want to mention that wr do have a barbarian but then again the lycan only stays out of range with his SS feat so it's not a visible "stepping on toes" so it's ok.
that all being said players (including myself) definitely only care about the buffs and will find ways to mitigate all rebuffs unless it's (mechanically, not rp) HARDCODED and even then will look for ways around.
i would also like to say that having lineage templates would be cooler and open up tons of options but that being said 5e is NOT build for it and IMO revamping everything would be necessary but also IMO not worth it... compared to PF2 who actually does allow it ... but then again I dabbled around woth a builder app that I found, knowing nothing about it and I was hella confused... and this is coming from someone who is very good with these complex customization games
The Returned can be used to make a Warforged just use Construct instead of undead, or call them a magic cyborg
If you're going to bring Theros into the conversation and completely ignore the Anvilwrought, I question how seriously you take this.
Warforged is its own race. No ifs, and, or buts about it. It deserves to be treated as such. The problem with templates is they need to be balanced with negatives. Back in 3.X, this wasn't too big a problem since different templates would add on to a character's level. A 1st-level Dhampir was effectively a 3rd-level character and gained experience as such. But 5e isn't big on templates, or negatives in general. Of the big three in the Monster Manual (half-dragons, lycanthropes, and vampires), only one has significant drawbacks. And I can't think of any added to the game since.
I do think these gothic lineages would be better served thematically as templates to be added on existing creatures. I'd love to see them as such, and I may still use these to create my own templates after publication. But I can also see why they're opting to go in a different direction.
What really sticks in my craw is people complaining about how these lineages break from the established lore. That tells me they're not bothering to read the lore being presented with these lineages. It's arrogant, dismissive, and hardly worth a second thought.
You have a valid point here. I think the problem is balancing things though. Some people can see using lineages as a racial addon as overpowered. But, like you said, what happens to the physical features of a race? Such as the aarakocra's wings or a minataur's horns. As far as I know they don't just fall off.
My thought process is that applying a lineage should replace all of the base race's racial traits EXCEPT physical parts of a race (wings, tails, claws, horns, extra limbs, physical capabilities, etc.) and any damage resistances/vulnerabilities. Since both are integrated parts of the race, I think that they should coexist with traits given by a lineage.
For example, if I wanted to play a variant aasimar dhampir, I would get the humanoid/undead, spider climb, and vampiric bite traits from the dhampir lineage and then resistance to necrotic and radiant damage from the aasimar race. Likewise, if I were to play an aarakocra hexblood, I would gain all the traits from the hexblood and then flight and talons from the aaracokra.
The only exception I can see so far is in the case of playing a reborn that is made of multiple body parts stitched together. This has the potential to be really confusing. (For example, playing a reborn with a minotaur head, human torso, and limbs from who-knows-what.) You could probably make some pretty powerful, if not bizarre, combinations when playing a reborn this way.
Overall, I think that using physical traits from the base race alongside the traits from lineages could provide a good balance without being overpowered or underpowered. It also makes more sense than trying to figure out how to explain how a hexblood/aarakocra's wings fell off.
Just going to butt in here with my own take on it.
I would absolutely love the ability to have the lineages be addons and not replacements. As people have said before me, it doesn't make total sense (to me) that lineages replace all racial traits indiscriminately, including ones that are learned (such as languages) and not innate. If you're an English speaker by culture but learned how to speak German as a second language, you wouldn't just forget how to speak German just because you're now a lot hungrier than you used to be. You have the same worldly experience, even if you don't have the same body.
However, as it stands, 5th Edition is not equipped to handle addon lineages, because there is no clear definition as to what is an innate trait and what is a learned trait - other than the users' interpretation. You'd basically have to rework it from the ground up to make it an objective rule, such as splitting the general "Racial Traits" into two parts, called some variation on the theme of "Physical Traits" and "Cultural Traits".
I feel if WOTC were to actually work on a proper lineage system, it would likely be part of 6th Edition if that ever happens, since editions are meant to be reimaginings or rewrites of their predecessors and therefore an opportunity to right wrongs (or wrong rights, in the case of the pre-Tasha Ranger class). Currently, a "physical trait" and a "cultural trait" are entirely left to interpretation and DM purview, as there is no hard and fast rule for it that everyone must follow (even Tasha's options are still options), so trying to squeeze a lineage into a pre-existing race by mix-and-matching traits in the hopes that the end result isn't OP would prove more difficult than it's worth.
If you want lineage addons and you want them now, Pathfinder's probably your best bet, since it's similar enough to Dungeons and Dragons but allows a lot(!) of customisation.
And you all talked in extensive lenght as to why lineage do not work and should be dropped from th eget go. they cause much more problems then they solve any.
problem number #1
- You are just adding more and more to a system that wants less and less.
problem number #2
- by adding such a system, reguardless of how you do it, you create more and more power imbalance in a system that is designed to be streamlined.
problem number #3
- reguardless of how much drawback you think about, mathematically people will find the optimal way of getting everything without losing anything.
lineages are probably the worse way of going about this...
i'd say the only way to make this happen is to go half and half...
i would allow my players to choose one ability from the previous race and keep that one. that is it !
if they want to keep their flight speed, go for it... but thats all, their talons are gone.
its as simple as that.
as for the one who talked about reincarnation...
well, people are ok with it, because they are never gonna use it to begin with.
if you ask any players, they are far from ok with losing their race. their race to them, is what makes the charcater. if they change that, then you just changed the character core and they don't want to play it anymore. thus why nobody want to use reincarnation. they will go to greath length to find a resurection spell instead. i pushed my players often toward reincarnation, that over 30 players in over 10 groups over the course of 20 years... all of them without any exceptions, have always refused reincarnation for the reason above.
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Ok. I can understand where you are coming from and I respect your opinion.