Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
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Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little bit of misdirection...
Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little bit of misdirection...
"Misdirection"? What?
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Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little bit of misdirection...
"Misdirection"? What?
The video put it in a way that implied it was a massive number of subclasses, people who did the math realized it was barely more than the PH.
That being said they could go off the rails and completely change the subclasses that normally got a ton in the PH and average it out so each class got 4, which is double what some of the classes got before in the PH.But given most classes currently have 8 or so that's a big drop in available subclasses.
Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little bit of misdirection...
"Misdirection"? What?
Look at how HYPE he gets mentioning "48 subclasses" as if that is a substantial increase over the existing number in the current PHB. When in reality it will be the same 42 previous and oh here are 6 more. Misdirection. He overhyped the amount hoping no one would catch on to how little it really is.
Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little bit of misdirection...
"Misdirection"? What?
Look at how HYPE he gets mentioning "48 subclasses" as if that is a substantial increase over the existing number in the current PHB. When in reality it will be the same 42 previous and oh here are 6 more. Misdirection. He overhyped the amount hoping no one would catch on to how little it really is.
No one was expecting 48 brand new subclasses. It's extremely clear from context that that's revisions of the existing ones. You know, sort of like how the 12 classes are revisions of the existing ones and not 12 brand new classes. There was no misdirection, because absolutely no reasonable person would ever have expected 48 brand new subclasses.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
Raging Barbarian Reckless attack halberd PAM/GWM vs AC 15:
Level 4
17 STR and old GWM: 12.1 DPR
18 Str and new GWM: 12.9DPR
Level 5
17 Str and old GWM: 28.3DPR
18 Str and new GWM: 28.1DPR
Level 8
17Str old GWM/PAM: 37.0
19Str new GWM/PAM: 34.6
So at 4th level you are doing less damage, at 5th less than one point difference and at 8th less than 3 points difference. Add that this comparison is one martial class out of 4 possible martial classes (5 if you include Hexblade) and only when that one class is using reckless attack or attacking a very low AC. In all other cases it is doing less damage AND getting worse saves and ability checks. This does also not consider extra damage from things like zealot, or conditions from ancesteral guardian that will be landing LESS often with the old feat than with the new.
Also note 15AC is below standard for 8th level. I should probably be looking at 16AC or 17 AC here.
2. GWM focus around the fact you can turn it off and on when needed.
"When needed" is not accurate. Mathematically you would turn the old feat on against low AC enemies with a lot of hit points, but those are not that common and against difficult enemies (high AC and high hps), when you "need" damage the most you will be doing less damage. The reverse is actually true - you have it when not needed and damage is easy to come by.
Furthermore when you turn it off and don't use -5/+10 it you are WAY behind compared to the new feat. You have a lower chance of hitting because you did not get the +1 strength, you have lower base damage because you did not get the +1 strength and in addition the guy with the new feat gets the extra feat damage when he hits and you don't because you turned off your damage boost.
Go against a 20AC at level 4, not using -5/+10 and you are doing 6.5DPR (Barbarian, Reckless attack, Halberd, old GWM, no -5/+10). The same Barbarian with the new UA feat is doing 9.0DPR which is nearly a third more damage.
At level 5 it is 15.1 vs 20.5 DPR for AC 20.
It is why GWM builds usually are barbarian, SS builds are archery style focused and when they can throw in advantage as well they will.
Fighters are far more common than Barbarians and I think Paladins are too. This is a corner case and one that is not really even ahead.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
Sneak Attack only working with the Attack Action also means that it can't combine with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, a blow to Rogue gish builds.
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Sneak Attack only working with the Attack Action also means that it can't combine with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, a blow to Rogue gish builds.
Yeah, but that already was kind of a cheesy exploit. And it's still possible if you multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger.
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Sneak Attack only working with the Attack Action also means that it can't combine with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, a blow to Rogue gish builds.
That one doesn't bother me, a spell attack cantrip making you a better sneak attacker always felt weird to me.
Sneak Attack only working with the Attack Action also means that it can't combine with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, a blow to Rogue gish builds.
Yeah, but that already was kind of a cheesy exploit. And it's still possible if you multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger.
But you’re also sacrificing 3d6 damage on said sneak attack, not worth it if that’s all you’re there for. Of course, there’s more goodies there, namely bladesong.
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Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
Another factor is ranger is now getting 2 ranks of expertise the same as the rogue.
When you put Rogue side by side with the other Experts you can see where it seems to lack in comparison.
First Level Rogue: Expertise, Sneak attack and Theives can't. So 2 languages (often referred to as a ribbon feature) sneak attack for a little more damage and expertise
Bard: Spell casting, Bardic Inspiration Ranger: Expertise, Favored Enemy and Spell casting. So far the Rogue is already starting a little behind. Spell casting, even cantrip and first level is better than 2 languages, though expertise over the bard does give them something Second Level: Cunning Action Bard: Expertise (catching up), and songs of restoration Ranger Fighting Style Ok bard has caught up here, cunning action is big. 3rd increase sneak attack, and Rogue Subclass Bard: 2nd level spells and Bard subclass Ranger: Ranger Subclass. Here we see the bard starting to pull ahead of the other 2 just be sheer features gained. The subclass features at this point need to be stronger for ranger and rogue to keep up with a full caster. 4th everyone gets a feat. So all good so far. 5th level Rogue: Uncanny dodge, sneak attack damage increase Bard: Jack of all trades, 3rd level spells Ranger: 2nd level spells and extra attack. Rogue has now fallen behind both classes. He has gained something to help with survival, but everyone's versatility is going to start outstripping him here. 6th level all of them gain Subclass feature, again, rogue's would need to be MUCH better to keep up at this point. 7th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die and their second expertise, Bard is gaining a 4th level spell and font of inspiration making bardic inspiration much better and Ranger is getting more movement and a climb and swim speed. Rogue is still behind, the second round of expertise helps a lot right here though for catching up. 8th everyone gets a feat. 9th Rogue gets more sneak attack, and evasion Bard gets a 5th level spell AND catches up in expertise, and Ranger gets 3rd level spells AND catches up in expertise. At this point the Rogue is VERY far behind the other two in terms of combat, utility and versatility. 10th level everyone gets a subclass feature, Rogue gets an addition feat... maybe this helps catch up a little. 11th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die AND gains Reliable talent Bard Gains Magical secrets and 6th level spells, and Ranger gains tireless. Bard is still better, but rogue has probably caught up to ranger at this point because Reliable talent really makes the rogue, but this is at level 11. 12th level Everyone gets a feat 13th level rogues get advantage at a time when they would have had sneak attack regardless, Rangers get nature's veil and Bards get 7th level spells.
It continues basically the whole way. 14th everyone gets subclass feature, 15, bards get more spells, Rangers get Feral sense and pull into greatness and Rogue gets another defensive ability with slippery mind. 16 everyone gets a feat, and 17 Bards get 9th level spells, rangers get 5th level spells and rogues get ANOTHER defensive ability that cancels advantage against them. This is where rogues fall behind again till level 18 because that defensive ability is just outright worse than the spell versatility gained by bards and rangers.
At most levels Rogues are behind the other 2 experts here, not far behind because every time they have a boost on skills like expertise, or something like cunning action to combat the increased spell versatility I think they do ok, but when they get nothing but defensive buff after defensive buff towards the end their versatility drops off. I would love to see rogues just get more skills, or more bonus action options for cunning action or more ways to gain advantage or something as they get into higher levels. As it is, I don't know if there is enough to gain after level 11 unless the 14th level feature for your rogue subclass is really good.
As far as thief goes, Search is solid, but lack of interact with object just hurts. Second story work is basically the same, Supreme sneak almost discourages me from making stealth one of my expertise, use magical device is stream lined, and thief's reflexes took a huge nerf both in number of times you could use it in a day and how much use you could get out of it. Thief was already a niche subclass rarely taken they didn't need to nerf it further.
Thief is easily fixable, in my opinion, by giving back the interact with object bonus action and removing the PB per long rest from thief's reflexes just allowing more bonus actions every round. I would also like to see steady aim return to rogue as well as giving them something better than elusive as a 17th level feature. Steady aim at level 5 in addition to uncanny dodge would go a long way to keeping rogue relevant.
I would also personally love to add attacks of opportunity to sneak attack. They are called attacks of opportunity afterall. It would still make it to where you couldn't hold your action and attack outside of turn and gain sneak attack or the weird interactions with command, but if the opponent made a poor tactical decision and didn't disengage from the rogue I think the rogue should get to punish them and have their moment to shine.
As a whole, most of the classes were nerfed in this document. Rangers lost their free spells per day and free nature's veil. Bards lost a LOT of their spell options and lore bards lost early magical secrets and rogues lost out of turn damage and the uniqueness of their expertise.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
Another factor is ranger is now getting 2 ranks of expertise the same as the rogue.
When you put Rogue side by side with the other Experts you can see where it seems to lack in comparison.
First Level Rogue: Expertise, Sneak attack and Theives can't. So 2 languages (often referred to as a ribbon feature) sneak attack for a little more damage and expertise
Bard: Spell casting, Bardic Inspiration Ranger: Expertise, Favored Enemy and Spell casting. So far the Rogue is already starting a little behind. Spell casting, even cantrip and first level is better than 2 languages, though expertise over the bard does give them something Second Level: Cunning Action Bard: Expertise (catching up), and songs of restoration Ranger Fighting Style Ok bard has caught up here, cunning action is big. 3rd increase sneak attack, and Rogue Subclass Bard: 2nd level spells and Bard subclass Ranger: Ranger Subclass. Here we see the bard starting to pull ahead of the other 2 just be sheer features gained. The subclass features at this point need to be stronger for ranger and rogue to keep up with a full caster. 4th everyone gets a feat. So all good so far. 5th level Rogue: Uncanny dodge, sneak attack damage increase Bard: Jack of all trades, 3rd level spells Ranger: 2nd level spells and extra attack. Rogue has now fallen behind both classes. He has gained something to help with survival, but everyone's versatility is going to start outstripping him here. 6th level all of them gain Subclass feature, again, rogue's would need to be MUCH better to keep up at this point. 7th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die and their second expertise, Bard is gaining a 4th level spell and font of inspiration making bardic inspiration much better and Ranger is getting more movement and a climb and swim speed. Rogue is still behind, the second round of expertise helps a lot right here though for catching up. 8th everyone gets a feat. 9th Rogue gets more sneak attack, and evasion Bard gets a 5th level spell AND catches up in expertise, and Ranger gets 3rd level spells AND catches up in expertise. At this point the Rogue is VERY far behind the other two in terms of combat, utility and versatility. 10th level everyone gets a subclass feature, Rogue gets an addition feat... maybe this helps catch up a little. 11th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die AND gains Reliable talent Bard Gains Magical secrets and 6th level spells, and Ranger gains tireless. Bard is still better, but rogue has probably caught up to ranger at this point because Reliable talent really makes the rogue, but this is at level 11. 12th level Everyone gets a feat 13th level rogues get advantage at a time when they would have had sneak attack regardless, Rangers get nature's veil and Bards get 7th level spells.
It continues basically the whole way. 14th everyone gets subclass feature, 15, bards get more spells, Rangers get Feral sense and pull into greatness and Rogue gets another defensive ability with slippery mind. 16 everyone gets a feat, and 17 Bards get 9th level spells, rangers get 5th level spells and rogues get ANOTHER defensive ability that cancels advantage against them. This is where rogues fall behind again till level 18 because that defensive ability is just outright worse than the spell versatility gained by bards and rangers.
At most levels Rogues are behind the other 2 experts here, not far behind because every time they have a boost on skills like expertise, or something like cunning action to combat the increased spell versatility I think they do ok, but when they get nothing but defensive buff after defensive buff towards the end their versatility drops off. I would love to see rogues just get more skills, or more bonus action options for cunning action or more ways to gain advantage or something as they get into higher levels. As it is, I don't know if there is enough to gain after level 11 unless the 14th level feature for your rogue subclass is really good.
As far as thief goes, Search is solid, but lack of interact with object just hurts. Second story work is basically the same, Supreme sneak almost discourages me from making stealth one of my expertise, use magical device is stream lined, and thief's reflexes took a huge nerf both in number of times you could use it in a day and how much use you could get out of it. Thief was already a niche subclass rarely taken they didn't need to nerf it further.
Thief is easily fixable, in my opinion, by giving back the interact with object bonus action and removing the PB per long rest from thief's reflexes just allowing more bonus actions every round. I would also like to see steady aim return to rogue as well as giving them something better than elusive as a 17th level feature. Steady aim at level 5 in addition to uncanny dodge would go a long way to keeping rogue relevant.
I would also personally love to add attacks of opportunity to sneak attack. They are called attacks of opportunity afterall. It would still make it to where you couldn't hold your action and attack outside of turn and gain sneak attack or the weird interactions with command, but if the opponent made a poor tactical decision and didn't disengage from the rogue I think the rogue should get to punish them and have their moment to shine.
As a whole, most of the classes were nerfed in this document. Rangers lost their free spells per day and free nature's veil. Bards lost a LOT of their spell options and lore bards lost early magical secrets and rogues lost out of turn damage and the uniqueness of their expertise.
All true except the ranger thong isn’t the whole truth.
You are assuming Tasha’s rangers. Phb rangers were buffed. Like, really buffed. Level 1 is no longer active only 15% of the time. Rangers got buff, and they out-compete rogue for space now. I don’t think rogues were too strong before, so maybe a rogue buff wouldn’t be a bad idea.
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Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
You seem to be missing the bigger picture. This means you can't sneak attack on ready action. Meaning that using ambush tactics is now unlikely to ever work or waiting to attack an enemy to come into your range like one that can phase through walls who doesn't appear on your turn. Any form of team work is not as beneficial as well as you can't set up a sneak attack with your allies on their turn with ready action or abilities like the combat maneuver commanding strike or order domains voice of authority. You also lost the ability to combine sneak attack with blade cantrips like BM or GFB because it now requires an attack action. They are literally even more of a stunning strike bot now than they were originally.
Sneak attack lost all dimensionality and thieves lost all their equipment usage advantages and it sucks man. By losing use object bonus action it lost the ability to use poisons during combat along with other useful tactical items like alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more.
They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth. You are now restricted to slipping in and out tactics with no freedom to roleplay other ways you could with the 5e rogue. If you could not see any of this then you seem to not have looked at rogue before the UA or stuck with the mentality that they only way to play a rogue is to slip in and out of combat.
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Also, I just looked at the numbers of subclasses. The number that will be featured in the UA? 48. The number in the PHB+DMG? 42. Whether the other 6 are revamped versions of stuff in xanathar’s or something, likely for sorcerers, or entirely new subclasses remains to be seen.
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I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little bit of misdirection...
"Misdirection"? What?
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The video put it in a way that implied it was a massive number of subclasses, people who did the math realized it was barely more than the PH.
That being said they could go off the rails and completely change the subclasses that normally got a ton in the PH and average it out so each class got 4, which is double what some of the classes got before in the PH.But given most classes currently have 8 or so that's a big drop in available subclasses.
Look at how HYPE he gets mentioning "48 subclasses" as if that is a substantial increase over the existing number in the current PHB. When in reality it will be the same 42 previous and oh here are 6 more. Misdirection. He overhyped the amount hoping no one would catch on to how little it really is.
No one was expecting 48 brand new subclasses. It's extremely clear from context that that's revisions of the existing ones. You know, sort of like how the 12 classes are revisions of the existing ones and not 12 brand new classes. There was no misdirection, because absolutely no reasonable person would ever have expected 48 brand new subclasses.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
It is still not much better.
Raging Barbarian Reckless attack halberd PAM/GWM vs AC 15:
Level 4
17 STR and old GWM: 12.1 DPR
18 Str and new GWM: 12.9DPR
Level 5
17 Str and old GWM: 28.3DPR
18 Str and new GWM: 28.1DPR
Level 8
17Str old GWM/PAM: 37.0
19Str new GWM/PAM: 34.6
So at 4th level you are doing less damage, at 5th less than one point difference and at 8th less than 3 points difference. Add that this comparison is one martial class out of 4 possible martial classes (5 if you include Hexblade) and only when that one class is using reckless attack or attacking a very low AC. In all other cases it is doing less damage AND getting worse saves and ability checks. This does also not consider extra damage from things like zealot, or conditions from ancesteral guardian that will be landing LESS often with the old feat than with the new.
Also note 15AC is below standard for 8th level. I should probably be looking at 16AC or 17 AC here.
"When needed" is not accurate. Mathematically you would turn the old feat on against low AC enemies with a lot of hit points, but those are not that common and against difficult enemies (high AC and high hps), when you "need" damage the most you will be doing less damage. The reverse is actually true - you have it when not needed and damage is easy to come by.
Furthermore when you turn it off and don't use -5/+10 it you are WAY behind compared to the new feat. You have a lower chance of hitting because you did not get the +1 strength, you have lower base damage because you did not get the +1 strength and in addition the guy with the new feat gets the extra feat damage when he hits and you don't because you turned off your damage boost.
Go against a 20AC at level 4, not using -5/+10 and you are doing 6.5DPR (Barbarian, Reckless attack, Halberd, old GWM, no -5/+10). The same Barbarian with the new UA feat is doing 9.0DPR which is nearly a third more damage.
At level 5 it is 15.1 vs 20.5 DPR for AC 20.
Fighters are far more common than Barbarians and I think Paladins are too. This is a corner case and one that is not really even ahead.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
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Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
Sneak Attack only working with the Attack Action also means that it can't combine with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, a blow to Rogue gish builds.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yeah, but that already was kind of a cheesy exploit. And it's still possible if you multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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That one doesn't bother me, a spell attack cantrip making you a better sneak attacker always felt weird to me.
But you’re also sacrificing 3d6 damage on said sneak attack, not worth it if that’s all you’re there for. Of course, there’s more goodies there, namely bladesong.
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Another factor is ranger is now getting 2 ranks of expertise the same as the rogue.
When you put Rogue side by side with the other Experts you can see where it seems to lack in comparison.
First Level Rogue: Expertise, Sneak attack and Theives can't. So 2 languages (often referred to as a ribbon feature) sneak attack for a little more damage and expertise
Bard: Spell casting, Bardic Inspiration
Ranger: Expertise, Favored Enemy and Spell casting.
So far the Rogue is already starting a little behind. Spell casting, even cantrip and first level is better than 2 languages, though expertise over the bard does give them something
Second Level: Cunning Action
Bard: Expertise (catching up), and songs of restoration
Ranger Fighting Style
Ok bard has caught up here, cunning action is big.
3rd increase sneak attack, and Rogue Subclass
Bard: 2nd level spells and Bard subclass
Ranger: Ranger Subclass.
Here we see the bard starting to pull ahead of the other 2 just be sheer features gained. The subclass features at this point need to be stronger for ranger and rogue to keep up with a full caster.
4th everyone gets a feat. So all good so far.
5th level
Rogue: Uncanny dodge, sneak attack damage increase
Bard: Jack of all trades, 3rd level spells
Ranger: 2nd level spells and extra attack.
Rogue has now fallen behind both classes. He has gained something to help with survival, but everyone's versatility is going to start outstripping him here.
6th level all of them gain Subclass feature, again, rogue's would need to be MUCH better to keep up at this point.
7th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die and their second expertise, Bard is gaining a 4th level spell and font of inspiration making bardic inspiration much better and Ranger is getting more movement and a climb and swim speed. Rogue is still behind, the second round of expertise helps a lot right here though for catching up.
8th everyone gets a feat.
9th Rogue gets more sneak attack, and evasion
Bard gets a 5th level spell AND catches up in expertise, and Ranger gets 3rd level spells AND catches up in expertise. At this point the Rogue is VERY far behind the other two in terms of combat, utility and versatility.
10th level everyone gets a subclass feature, Rogue gets an addition feat... maybe this helps catch up a little.
11th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die AND gains Reliable talent
Bard Gains Magical secrets and 6th level spells, and Ranger gains tireless. Bard is still better, but rogue has probably caught up to ranger at this point because Reliable talent really makes the rogue, but this is at level 11.
12th level Everyone gets a feat
13th level rogues get advantage at a time when they would have had sneak attack regardless, Rangers get nature's veil and Bards get 7th level spells.
It continues basically the whole way. 14th everyone gets subclass feature, 15, bards get more spells, Rangers get Feral sense and pull into greatness and Rogue gets another defensive ability with slippery mind. 16 everyone gets a feat, and 17 Bards get 9th level spells, rangers get 5th level spells and rogues get ANOTHER defensive ability that cancels advantage against them. This is where rogues fall behind again till level 18 because that defensive ability is just outright worse than the spell versatility gained by bards and rangers.
At most levels Rogues are behind the other 2 experts here, not far behind because every time they have a boost on skills like expertise, or something like cunning action to combat the increased spell versatility I think they do ok, but when they get nothing but defensive buff after defensive buff towards the end their versatility drops off. I would love to see rogues just get more skills, or more bonus action options for cunning action or more ways to gain advantage or something as they get into higher levels. As it is, I don't know if there is enough to gain after level 11 unless the 14th level feature for your rogue subclass is really good.
As far as thief goes, Search is solid, but lack of interact with object just hurts. Second story work is basically the same, Supreme sneak almost discourages me from making stealth one of my expertise, use magical device is stream lined, and thief's reflexes took a huge nerf both in number of times you could use it in a day and how much use you could get out of it.
Thief was already a niche subclass rarely taken they didn't need to nerf it further.
Thief is easily fixable, in my opinion, by giving back the interact with object bonus action and removing the PB per long rest from thief's reflexes just allowing more bonus actions every round. I would also like to see steady aim return to rogue as well as giving them something better than elusive as a 17th level feature. Steady aim at level 5 in addition to uncanny dodge would go a long way to keeping rogue relevant.
I would also personally love to add attacks of opportunity to sneak attack. They are called attacks of opportunity afterall. It would still make it to where you couldn't hold your action and attack outside of turn and gain sneak attack or the weird interactions with command, but if the opponent made a poor tactical decision and didn't disengage from the rogue I think the rogue should get to punish them and have their moment to shine.
As a whole, most of the classes were nerfed in this document.
Rangers lost their free spells per day and free nature's veil. Bards lost a LOT of their spell options and lore bards lost early magical secrets and rogues lost out of turn damage and the uniqueness of their expertise.
All true except the ranger thong isn’t the whole truth.
You are assuming Tasha’s rangers. Phb rangers were buffed. Like, really buffed. Level 1 is no longer active only 15% of the time. Rangers got buff, and they out-compete rogue for space now. I don’t think rogues were too strong before, so maybe a rogue buff wouldn’t be a bad idea.
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You seem to be missing the bigger picture. This means you can't sneak attack on ready action. Meaning that using ambush tactics is now unlikely to ever work or waiting to attack an enemy to come into your range like one that can phase through walls who doesn't appear on your turn. Any form of team work is not as beneficial as well as you can't set up a sneak attack with your allies on their turn with ready action or abilities like the combat maneuver commanding strike or order domains voice of authority. You also lost the ability to combine sneak attack with blade cantrips like BM or GFB because it now requires an attack action. They are literally even more of a stunning strike bot now than they were originally.
Sneak attack lost all dimensionality and thieves lost all their equipment usage advantages and it sucks man. By losing use object bonus action it lost the ability to use poisons during combat along with other useful tactical items like alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more.
They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth. You are now restricted to slipping in and out tactics with no freedom to roleplay other ways you could with the 5e rogue. If you could not see any of this then you seem to not have looked at rogue before the UA or stuck with the mentality that they only way to play a rogue is to slip in and out of combat.