Sneak Attack only working with the Attack Action also means that it can't combine with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, a blow to Rogue gish builds.
Yeah, but that already was kind of a cheesy exploit. And it's still possible if you multiclass 6 levels into Bladesinger.
Crawford said rogues are all about cheating and exploitation. It seems to be the opposite of what he said.
Looking at only mechanics, rogues only bring thieves tools expertise to the table. Sneak attack was hurt badly with the wording change "on your turn" instead of on a turn. The opportunity attack sneak was nice to having and a head action no longer applies sneak as that typically triggers on someone else's turn.
The changes to GWM and SS made martial fall further behind. It looks like they did that to make 2 weapon fighting more attractive.
I didn't see it anywhere but did they ever fix crits on more than just weapon attacks?
Looking at only mechanics, rogues only bring thieves tools expertise to the table. Sneak attack was hurt badly with the wording change "on your turn" instead of on a turn. The opportunity attack sneak was nice to having and a head action no longer applies sneak as that typically triggers on someone else's turn.
The changes to GWM and SS made martial fall further behind. It looks like they did that to make 2 weapon fighting more attractive.
I didn't see it anywhere but did they ever fix crits on more than just weapon attacks?
They said to run this UA with the 2014 crit rules and that nat 1 gives inspiration.
First of all thank you to everyone, I thought I was going to be roasted after my rogue post and I’m happy to see I didn’t and it led to a good discussion. Which leads me to my next comment - I’m not surprised at the nerfs to sneak attack, PAM, GWM, SS, etc. When you only have one or two ways that are clearly superior something is broken and you either have to find ways to bring everything else up to the (new) standard or you have to nerf the outliers. I get that a large number of folks liked the massive damage these builds generate but in a balanced game everyone should be in the same ballpark at the very least. These feats needed nerfing to bring them in line with other builds. It hurts those of us that minmaxing but helps everyone else. Guess we will find out how many vocal minmaxers there are.
Hadesisle said “They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth.” and he is sort of half right I suspect. The thing is we are still thinking of the rogue as a “ martial” but they are thinking of it as an “expert” . The base rogue and thief subclass were never meant for frontline fighting against true martials. Will there be a martial rogue subclass later in the play test? Almost certainly. But for now look at what they gave us - Experts - Bards (+lore) , the iconic social expert and the magical expert; Ranger (+ Hunter) - the iconic nature expert with limited nature magic and the Rogue (+thief) - the iconic get in and out without being caught and some fighting ability if they do get caught. For now with this limited set if you want a “martial rogue (1dnd style) “ try a multiclass ranger- hunter/ rogue-thief and see what hat looks like. Notice they are also saying that rangers are no longer true martials but a martial expert and bards are no longer a true mage but a magical expert. At least half our problems come from trying to apply our old labels to the new concepts and it’s not working well. Working from inside the new concepts may help understand the changes better.
Fly Speed does not require you to move in order to stay aloft. The new rules do not say there is any difference between having a Fly Speed and having Hover thus either you must interpret it as both will fall if grappled or neither will fall if grappled. The most logical of those is that neither will fall. Having a Fly Speed of 0 does not mean you fall, just as having a swim speed of 0 doesn't mean you instantly sink to the bottom, or having a burrow speed of 0 doesn't mean you are suddenly crushed by the dirt on top of you.
Since bodies at rest normally naturally float, at least initially and barring undertows, you would more likely move upwards than downwards if unable to move underwater.
Having a burrowing speed does not mean the tunnel automatically collapses behind you, either and if you are able to withstand digging through the ground in the first place, then you presumably can withstand the pressure regardless.
However, flying normally requires you to continue to do whatever is keeping you aloft. If something is restraining your ability to move from where you are, and you are kept aloft by the movements that would normally allow you to move from your position, you would presumably also be restricted from staying aloft too. Even if an entangle-like effect just tangled your legs, you could fly around on that tether, but that is not the case. So... is it really sensible that you don't fall?
Entangle causes Restrained which does cause flying creatures to fall in the UA. This is distinct from Grappled. Flying creatures aren't required to move to stay aloft in either 5e or One.
I would disagagee about intend. I really don't see the intention being very clear what is presented so far in ONE did not really rebalance the most powerful imbalances. GWM, PAM and Sentinel all got a boost, while Rogues got nerfed. That actually makes the game more imbalanced IMO.
I woudl disagree with your assessment of PAM/Sentinel. The PAM-Sentinel combo is actually stronger than it was before, having the same abilities plus each of the two feats being +1 ASI boost in addition. The only thing it nerfed is you can no longer use spears and quarterstaffs with PAM, but anything you could do with a Glaive or Halberd with PAM and Sentinel you can still do and you get the ability score boost in addition.
How in the world can anyone say that GWM got boosted? Yes, now it's a 1/2 feat the but extra damage is effectively cut in half or more (from +10 to +PB) and can only occur on one hit per turn. So potentially +50 damage in a turn (4 attacks + bonus attack) to +6 total. That is a HUGE nerf and not ANYWHERE near made up for by a +1 STR. For the record though, I do support a NERF to GWF, SS, and XBOX Master feats as they needed to be brought in-line with other fighting styles for balance sake. I'm not sure it needed to be this extreme though. Will have to play to see just how strong/weak it feels compared to TWF now that TWF has also been buffed. Also GWM no longer applies to attacks not on your turn...so even less potential damage per round than current.
It's not that bad b/c the drop in chance to hit should never be ignored. On average against creatures of CR == Character Level the new GWM does about the same amount of damage as the old GWM. The main difference is that they've eliminated the variability in DPR vs enemy AC, and decreased the incentives to getting more attacks. Only SS has been a massive nerf.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
Another factor is ranger is now getting 2 ranks of expertise the same as the rogue.
When you put Rogue side by side with the other Experts you can see where it seems to lack in comparison.
First Level Rogue: Expertise, Sneak attack and Theives can't. So 2 languages (often referred to as a ribbon feature) sneak attack for a little more damage and expertise
Bard: Spell casting, Bardic Inspiration Ranger: Expertise, Favored Enemy and Spell casting. So far the Rogue is already starting a little behind. Spell casting, even cantrip and first level is better than 2 languages, though expertise over the bard does give them something Second Level: Cunning Action Bard: Expertise (catching up), and songs of restoration Ranger Fighting Style Ok bard has caught up here, cunning action is big. 3rd increase sneak attack, and Rogue Subclass Bard: 2nd level spells and Bard subclass Ranger: Ranger Subclass. Here we see the bard starting to pull ahead of the other 2 just be sheer features gained. The subclass features at this point need to be stronger for ranger and rogue to keep up with a full caster. 4th everyone gets a feat. So all good so far. 5th level Rogue: Uncanny dodge, sneak attack damage increase Bard: Jack of all trades, 3rd level spells Ranger: 2nd level spells and extra attack. Rogue has now fallen behind both classes. He has gained something to help with survival, but everyone's versatility is going to start outstripping him here. 6th level all of them gain Subclass feature, again, rogue's would need to be MUCH better to keep up at this point. 7th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die and their second expertise, Bard is gaining a 4th level spell and font of inspiration making bardic inspiration much better and Ranger is getting more movement and a climb and swim speed. Rogue is still behind, the second round of expertise helps a lot right here though for catching up. 8th everyone gets a feat. 9th Rogue gets more sneak attack, and evasion Bard gets a 5th level spell AND catches up in expertise, and Ranger gets 3rd level spells AND catches up in expertise. At this point the Rogue is VERY far behind the other two in terms of combat, utility and versatility. 10th level everyone gets a subclass feature, Rogue gets an addition feat... maybe this helps catch up a little. 11th level Rogue gains another sneak attack die AND gains Reliable talent Bard Gains Magical secrets and 6th level spells, and Ranger gains tireless. Bard is still better, but rogue has probably caught up to ranger at this point because Reliable talent really makes the rogue, but this is at level 11. 12th level Everyone gets a feat 13th level rogues get advantage at a time when they would have had sneak attack regardless, Rangers get nature's veil and Bards get 7th level spells.
It continues basically the whole way. 14th everyone gets subclass feature, 15, bards get more spells, Rangers get Feral sense and pull into greatness and Rogue gets another defensive ability with slippery mind. 16 everyone gets a feat, and 17 Bards get 9th level spells, rangers get 5th level spells and rogues get ANOTHER defensive ability that cancels advantage against them. This is where rogues fall behind again till level 18 because that defensive ability is just outright worse than the spell versatility gained by bards and rangers.
At most levels Rogues are behind the other 2 experts here, not far behind because every time they have a boost on skills like expertise, or something like cunning action to combat the increased spell versatility I think they do ok, but when they get nothing but defensive buff after defensive buff towards the end their versatility drops off. I would love to see rogues just get more skills, or more bonus action options for cunning action or more ways to gain advantage or something as they get into higher levels. As it is, I don't know if there is enough to gain after level 11 unless the 14th level feature for your rogue subclass is really good.
As far as thief goes, Search is solid, but lack of interact with object just hurts. Second story work is basically the same, Supreme sneak almost discourages me from making stealth one of my expertise, use magical device is stream lined, and thief's reflexes took a huge nerf both in number of times you could use it in a day and how much use you could get out of it. Thief was already a niche subclass rarely taken they didn't need to nerf it further.
Thief is easily fixable, in my opinion, by giving back the interact with object bonus action and removing the PB per long rest from thief's reflexes just allowing more bonus actions every round. I would also like to see steady aim return to rogue as well as giving them something better than elusive as a 17th level feature. Steady aim at level 5 in addition to uncanny dodge would go a long way to keeping rogue relevant.
I would also personally love to add attacks of opportunity to sneak attack. They are called attacks of opportunity afterall. It would still make it to where you couldn't hold your action and attack outside of turn and gain sneak attack or the weird interactions with command, but if the opponent made a poor tactical decision and didn't disengage from the rogue I think the rogue should get to punish them and have their moment to shine.
As a whole, most of the classes were nerfed in this document. Rangers lost their free spells per day and free nature's veil. Bards lost a LOT of their spell options and lore bards lost early magical secrets and rogues lost out of turn damage and the uniqueness of their expertise.
Wow you really underestimate or downplay the power of rogue at certain lvls. While I’ll agree that non spellcasters will never have the versatility of spellcasters you downplay the rogues damage potential and utility a lot. Level 1 Rogues have sneak attack every combat no resource use. Rangers have hunters mark from favored enemy, bonus action to use and cost a spell slot. Honestly think favored enemy is going to move to second level. I’m not going to waste my time comparing them to the Bard that’s the same as comparing them to a Wizard. Magic is really special in the game until you run out of spell slots. Most DMs don’t push their players to run out of spell slots so no point doing this comparison.
Rogue 2 you admit Cunning action is big.
Rogue 3 Thief is easily the weakest rogue subclass. And I agree interact with object needs to be a part of fast hands. Arcane trickster would be better than Ranger at this level. Thief could be better depending on play styles in combat. Especially if you have a day of repeated small combats.
Rogue 4 all the same
Rogue 5 keeps you in the fight. You downplay defensive abilities, but the rogue is really hard to put down because of these.
6th supreme sneak makes those hide checks easier and give you a higher DC to be found. Arcane trickster 6th is great if they don’t change when the bring it down.
7th Rouge sneak attack damage is stating to outpace a lot of people with extra attack. Hunters mark is keeping Ranger in the mix but he is spending spell slots on that. Also rangers extra movement on land is still slower than you with a cunning action and if you are the thief you have had a climb speed for 4 levels already. 8 feats
9th rogue gets evasion. So many dex saves in this game and rogues laugh at them. Rogues are behind Bards because they are full casters. They are on par with Rangers still in combat and only behind in utility because of spells. The Ranger will have to be selective of whether to use his spells for utility or save them for hunters mark.
10 additional feat rogue is better than Ranger if you make the right choice here.
11 reliable talent the rogue is outpacing everyone’s expertise.
12 feats
13 you really downplayed this but it’s big. Crits on sneak attack are usually huge. Rogues will almost always have advantage when they get sneak attack now.
14 and above is almost all defensive because Rogues just need to live and they will do big damage. Gain proficiency in two saves is big, no advantage against the rogue is also strong. Sneak attack alone is strong offensive ability, and reliable talent gives you the best skill checks in the game. The only thing rogue is missing is magic. No matter how many skills or features you give a non spellcaster they will never have the versatility of a spell caster.
Hadesisle said “They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth.” and he is sort of half right I suspect. The thing is we are still thinking of the rogue as a “ martial” but they are thinking of it as an “expert” .
When someone says "martial," that means something different to me than you, I suspect. Martials are another way of saying "non-caster;" you have full caster, half caster, and martial. 5e's 13 classes make kind of a nice table out of it. Caster-ness on one axis, and "power source" on the other.
Barbarian - Rogue - Monk - Fighter
Ranger - Artificer - Paladin - Warlock*
Druid - Bard - Cleric - Wizard/Sorcerer
Most martials are warriors, yes, which makes the rogue a bit of an odd woman out. But that just means they have special considerations when we talk about the martial / caster divide. And tha'ts really the extent upon which we talk about martials - how are they balanced compared to other classes? And, despite not being a warrior, rogue still has a lot of the same concerns. They might not be the best at fights, but they should more than hold their own in combat, plus they have the same martial-caster divide issue when it comes to staying compettative at exploration.
If we talk about just weapon ability, then we really have to be bringing up paladin and ranger into that conversation as well. And hexblade, bladesinger, war cleric, moon druid, sword/valor/whisper bard... Which gets messy.
* yes, I consider warlock to be a half-caster, even if their funky pact magic goes all the way up to 9. Not just because EB plays like an arcane archer type, but half-casters tend to have options for pets (companions, mounts, chain'lock, golems), the whole Hex / Hunter's Mark thing, and Invocations/Imbuement similarity.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
You seem to be missing the bigger picture. This means you can't sneak attack on ready action. Meaning that using ambush tactics is now unlikely to ever work or waiting to attack an enemy to come into your range like one that can phase through walls who doesn't appear on your turn. Any form of team work is not as beneficial as well as you can't set up a sneak attack with your allies on their turn with ready action or abilities like the combat maneuver commanding strike or order domains voice of authority. You also lost the ability to combine sneak attack with blade cantrips like BM or GFB because it now requires an attack action. They are literally even more of a stunning strike bot now than they were originally.
Sneak attack lost all dimensionality and thieves lost all their equipment usage advantages and it sucks man. By losing use object bonus action it lost the ability to use poisons during combat along with other useful tactical items like alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more.
They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth. You are now restricted to slipping in and out tactics with no freedom to roleplay other ways you could with the 5e rogue. If you could not see any of this then you seem to not have looked at rogue before the UA or stuck with the mentality that they only way to play a rogue is to slip in and out of combat.
Who is using commander’s strike? The others are viable options, but if you are using commander’s strike as an example of good teamwork I have major questions about your group and how you understand the action economy. Commanders strike is trash. The thief use object should be added back into fast hands, but still a minor nerf because the best objects to use have always been magic items which you never could do. I love your statement of Alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more. I would love to talk about the many more because other than caltrops and ball bearings I can’t think of any other combat related stuff. All of this being extremely niche and not very effective in most combats. Well when you get the feature alchemist fire might still be considered good at 3rd lvl. By 6th level it’s pretty weak, but I guess your view it as extra damage. Cant call it free damage as there is a gold cost. And it’s expensive for the small damage it does. I think they realized you shouldn’t be able to sneak attack with BB and GFB. I took BB on my high elf rogue and I loved it but remember those cantrips came after the PHB. Sneak attack alone is fair amount of damage long as they don’t actually revert to that first 1dnd UAs crit rules. Those crit rules were trash. I don’t see that you are restricted to slipping in and out tactics. You could still go ranged. This UA Crossbow expert needs to be fixed though. You could still hide and ambush. I will acknowledge that losing the ability to ready an action to wait til your ally is next to an enemy will hinder some rogues on the first round of combat. But the new light weapons gives you two opportunities per turn to hit with your sneak attack if you do go in out tactics.
First of all thank you to everyone, I thought I was going to be roasted after my rogue post and I’m happy to see I didn’t and it led to a good discussion. Which leads me to my next comment - I’m not surprised at the nerfs to sneak attack, PAM, GWM, SS, etc. When you only have one or two ways that are clearly superior something is broken and you either have to find ways to bring everything else up to the (new) standard or you have to nerf the outliers. I get that a large number of folks liked the massive damage these builds generate but in a balanced game everyone should be in the same ballpark at the very least. These feats needed nerfing to bring them in line with other builds. It hurts those of us that minmaxing but helps everyone else. Guess we will find out how many vocal minmaxers there are.
As far as numbers yes it felt like big numbers yet rogues still fall behind in damage so it is more of an illusion that they break the game. If they happen to sneak attack outside their turn which doesn't happen as often on an AoO it still doesn't break the damage numbers. The time it happen the most outside their turn was in ready action but they sacrificed their turn to do it so it didn't change the amount of damage they did and now that they can't sneak attack on ready action it just further puts them back. All sneak attack did was bring them closer in damage to other classes that had extra attack but only enough to keep up. The nerf to sneak attack just feels unjustified.
First of all thank you to everyone, I thought I was going to be roasted after my rogue post and I’m happy to see I didn’t and it led to a good discussion. Which leads me to my next comment - I’m not surprised at the nerfs to sneak attack, PAM, GWM, SS, etc. When you only have one or two ways that are clearly superior something is broken and you either have to find ways to bring everything else up to the (new) standard or you have to nerf the outliers. I get that a large number of folks liked the massive damage these builds generate but in a balanced game everyone should be in the same ballpark at the very least. These feats needed nerfing to bring them in line with other builds. It hurts those of us that minmaxing but helps everyone else. Guess we will find out how many vocal minmaxers there are.
As far as numbers yes it felt like big numbers yet rogues still fall behind in damage so it is more of an illusion that they break the game. If they happen to sneak attack outside their turn which doesn't happen as often on an AoO it still doesn't break the damage numbers. The time it happen the most outside their turn was in ready action but they sacrificed their turn to do it so it didn't change the amount of damage they did and now that they can't sneak attack on ready action it just further puts them back. All sneak attack did was bring them closer in damage to other classes that had extra attack but only enough to keep up. The nerf to sneak attack just feels unjustified.
While I definitely understand psychologically feeling like rogues have lost something here, I have maybe three years of experience playing weekly with rogues and I have never seen one get sneak attack on an attack of opportunity (or otherwise off their own turn). I do not believe it happens often enough for this to reasonably be called a nerf.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
You seem to be missing the bigger picture. This means you can't sneak attack on ready action. Meaning that using ambush tactics is now unlikely to ever work or waiting to attack an enemy to come into your range like one that can phase through walls who doesn't appear on your turn. Any form of team work is not as beneficial as well as you can't set up a sneak attack with your allies on their turn with ready action or abilities like the combat maneuver commanding strike or order domains voice of authority. You also lost the ability to combine sneak attack with blade cantrips like BM or GFB because it now requires an attack action. They are literally even more of a stunning strike bot now than they were originally.
Sneak attack lost all dimensionality and thieves lost all their equipment usage advantages and it sucks man. By losing use object bonus action it lost the ability to use poisons during combat along with other useful tactical items like alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more.
They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth. You are now restricted to slipping in and out tactics with no freedom to roleplay other ways you could with the 5e rogue. If you could not see any of this then you seem to not have looked at rogue before the UA or stuck with the mentality that they only way to play a rogue is to slip in and out of combat.
Who is using commander’s strike? The others are viable options, but if you are using commander’s strike as an example of good teamwork I have major questions about your group and how you understand the action economy. Commanders strike is trash. The thief use object should be added back into fast hands, but still a minor nerf because the best objects to use have always been magic items which you never could do. I love your statement of Alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more. I would love to talk about the many more because other than caltrops and ball bearings I can’t think of any other combat related stuff. All of this being extremely niche and not very effective in most combats. Well when you get the feature alchemist fire might still be considered good at 3rd lvl. By 6th level it’s pretty weak, but I guess your view it as extra damage. Cant call it free damage as there is a gold cost. And it’s expensive for the small damage it does. I think they realized you shouldn’t be able to sneak attack with BB and GFB. I took BB on my high elf rogue and I loved it but remember those cantrips came after the PHB. Sneak attack alone is fair amount of damage long as they don’t actually revert to that first 1dnd UAs crit rules. Those crit rules were trash. I don’t see that you are restricted to slipping in and out tactics. You could still go ranged. This UA Crossbow expert needs to be fixed though. You could still hide and ambush. I will acknowledge that losing the ability to ready an action to wait til your ally is next to an enemy will hinder some rogues on the first round of combat. But the new light weapons gives you two opportunities per turn to hit with your sneak attack if you do go in out tactics.
Commanders strike is only worth using on a rogue to get their sneak attack. I would not use it on anything else.
Why is it that people seem to be only talking about bards and rangers and seem to be shoving rogues under the rug as if the nerfs they took seems to be ok. It is almost as the people that are trying to say that the nerfs are OK never played rogues at all. I see dedicated posts to bards and rangers but not one about rogues.
Please explain your Rouge nerf. Evasion got moved to a higher level. Everything else seems better to me.
The problem is Rogue is a relatively weak class to start with. They moved evasion higher which is a big deal and then nerfed sneak attack to boot.
What is the nerf to sneak attack? Crits work the same in this playtest as 2014 so unless I’m missing something there is no nerf to sneak attack. Rogues are far from weak. Spells just interact with the game in the best possible ways. So comparing any class with spells to one without spells most people will favor one with spells. Until you play with meat grinder dm and can’t get a long rest. Then Rogues look phenomenal. Nothing in there base class runs out. Melee rogues are actually buffed by the new light weapon property. They get basically pack tactics at 13th and have an improved slippery mind that makes them proficient in two saves, Wis and Cha. I don’t see the nerf.
Sneak attack doesn’t work on other player’s turns anymore. That is the main nerf. Other than that, most changes are neutral or even buffs
Evasion is later, but that puts a subclass feature earlier, one which on the single subclass shown was probably buffed for non-multiclass, though it is still likely worse than evasion.
Oh yeah, you’re right it is a minor nerf. Unless someone was a master of getting opportunity attacks or had a battle master with them that would use that horrible commander strike maneuver I’m going to say it’s niche. Still a slight nerf. I’m going to say 6th level sub class features will be better or at least on par with evasion. Thief’s is equal in my opinion now that it’s all stealth checks, the arcane tricksters is better if it stays the same, and I hope the assassin’s gets reworked.
You seem to be missing the bigger picture. This means you can't sneak attack on ready action. Meaning that using ambush tactics is now unlikely to ever work or waiting to attack an enemy to come into your range like one that can phase through walls who doesn't appear on your turn. Any form of team work is not as beneficial as well as you can't set up a sneak attack with your allies on their turn with ready action or abilities like the combat maneuver commanding strike or order domains voice of authority. You also lost the ability to combine sneak attack with blade cantrips like BM or GFB because it now requires an attack action. They are literally even more of a stunning strike bot now than they were originally.
Sneak attack lost all dimensionality and thieves lost all their equipment usage advantages and it sucks man. By losing use object bonus action it lost the ability to use poisons during combat along with other useful tactical items like alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more.
They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth. You are now restricted to slipping in and out tactics with no freedom to roleplay other ways you could with the 5e rogue. If you could not see any of this then you seem to not have looked at rogue before the UA or stuck with the mentality that they only way to play a rogue is to slip in and out of combat.
Who is using commander’s strike? The others are viable options, but if you are using commander’s strike as an example of good teamwork I have major questions about your group and how you understand the action economy. Commanders strike is trash. The thief use object should be added back into fast hands, but still a minor nerf because the best objects to use have always been magic items which you never could do. I love your statement of Alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more. I would love to talk about the many more because other than caltrops and ball bearings I can’t think of any other combat related stuff. All of this being extremely niche and not very effective in most combats. Well when you get the feature alchemist fire might still be considered good at 3rd lvl. By 6th level it’s pretty weak, but I guess your view it as extra damage. Cant call it free damage as there is a gold cost. And it’s expensive for the small damage it does. I think they realized you shouldn’t be able to sneak attack with BB and GFB. I took BB on my high elf rogue and I loved it but remember those cantrips came after the PHB. Sneak attack alone is fair amount of damage long as they don’t actually revert to that first 1dnd UAs crit rules. Those crit rules were trash. I don’t see that you are restricted to slipping in and out tactics. You could still go ranged. This UA Crossbow expert needs to be fixed though. You could still hide and ambush. I will acknowledge that losing the ability to ready an action to wait til your ally is next to an enemy will hinder some rogues on the first round of combat. But the new light weapons gives you two opportunities per turn to hit with your sneak attack if you do go in out tactics.
Commanders strike is only worth using on a rogue to get their sneak attack. I would not use it on anything else.
That’s evidence of how good sneak attack is lol, cause you understand how trash commander’s strike is but it’s worth it to activate another sneak attack. While I don’t think it should work with features like that or spells, I do think you should be able to ready an action and you should be able to use it on opportunity attacks. Especially opportunity attacks. They don’t come up often, but the rogue should be taking full advantage of someone trying to leave their threatened space. While I don’t agree with all the things you consider a nerf and I also see some improvement in other places I will agree that overall it is a nerf. Mainly because of the ready action and opportunity attacks. The other stuff feels like corrections, but losing the coordination of a ready action and the I dare you to move opportunity attack damage feels like a nerf.
since you put all that down, I had an idea and tried to put numbers together and it highlighted just how dependent on that invisible feature at level 13 ranger will be to keep up to pace. This is using the Thief and Hunter subclasses since that is what was shown in the UA.
Level
Weapon
Dex Mod
Rogue
Ranger
Ranger + invis
1
0
3
10.1
11.4
11.4
2
0
3
10.1
13.35
13.35
3
0
3
13.34
17.3
17.3
4
0
4
13.99
18.6
18.6
5
0
4
17.24
26.28
26.28
6
1
4
18.54
28.23
28.23
7
1
4
21.79
28.23
28.23
8
1
5
22.44
30.18
30.18
9
1
5
25.68
30.18
30.18
10
1
5
25.68
30.18
30.18
11
2
5
30.23
32.13
32.13
12
2
5
30.23
32.13
32.13
13
2
5
41.24
32.13
42.37
14
2
5
41.24
32.13
42.37
15
2
5
45.03
32.13
42.37
16
2
5
45.03
32.13
42.37
17
3
5
48.82
34.08
45
18
3
5
48.82
37.98
50.27
19
3
5
52.61
37.98
50.27
20
3
5
52.61
37.98
50.27
I have made some assumptions to get these numbers (i.e. all attacks at 65% chance to hit), include dex modifier and +weapons, both dex mod and +weapons benefit ranger more than rogue. I have assumed TWF for the ranger's choice of fighting style, but ranger while looking a lot stronger in the early game later on it's gotta be burning spell slots for the bonus action invis to keep up with rogue. Ranger better hope their target doesn't have blind sight, see invisibility or other such sense else yikes. Ranger does have spells and other tricks that could get higher numbers (savage attacker and dual wielder feats for example, both benefit Ranger more than Rogue).
And yes, about level 13, my numbers indicate rogue would get over a 33% jump in DPS at this level... so it definitely shouldn't be downplayed.
I also might have made some mistakes in these numbers, certainly I have used probably too simple a method to calculate rogue's sneak attack critical damage, which might be slightly (but not much) higher than I have calculated. I think these numbers are still good enough for comparison tho.
EDIT: updated rogue numbers, increased after correctly calculating magical weapons
since you put all that down, I had an idea and tried to put numbers together and it highlighted just how dependent on that invisible feature at level 13 ranger will be to keep up to pace. This is using the Thief and Hunter subclasses since that is what was shown in the UA.
Level
Weapon
Dex Mod
Rogue
Ranger
Ranger + invis
1
0
3
10.1
11.4
11.4
2
0
3
10.1
13.35
13.35
3
0
3
13.34
17.3
17.3
4
0
4
13.99
18.6
18.6
5
0
4
17.24
26.28
26.28
6
1
4
17.89
28.23
28.23
7
1
4
21.14
28.23
28.23
8
1
5
21.79
30.18
30.18
9
1
5
25.03
30.18
30.18
10
1
5
25.03
30.18
30.18
11
2
5
28.93
32.13
32.13
12
2
5
28.93
32.13
32.13
13
2
5
39.49
32.13
42.37
14
2
5
39.49
32.13
42.37
15
2
5
43.28
32.13
42.37
16
2
5
43.28
32.13
42.37
17
3
5
47.94
34.08
45
18
3
5
47.94
37.98
50.27
19
3
5
51.73
37.98
50.27
20
3
5
51.73
37.98
50.27
I have made some assumptions to get these numbers (i.e. all attacks at 65% chance to hit), include dex modifier and +weapons, both dex mod and +weapons benefit ranger more than rogue. I have assumed TWF for the ranger's choice of fighting style, but ranger while looking a lot stronger in the early game later on it's gotta be burning spell slots for the bonus action invis to keep up with rogue. Ranger better hope their target doesn't have blind sight, see invisibility or other such sense else yikes. Ranger does have spells and other tricks that could get higher numbers.
And yes, about level 13, my numbers indicate rogue would get over a 33% jump in DPS at this level... so it definitely shouldn't be downplayed.
I also might have made some mistakes in these numbers, certainly I have used probably too simple a method to calculate rogue's sneak attack critical damage, which might be slightly (but not much) higher than I have calculated. I think these numbers are still good enough for comparison tho.
Thanks. Rogue damage t’s even better if you have lots of fights per day where spell casters fall off. But it has come to my attention that rogues lost their ability to sneak attack on opportunity attacks. While it’s not the end of the world nerf I have to accept that is slightly game changing nerf. DMs will have no fear walking away from or passed a rogue on the battle field. While I will still defend the UA rogue being okay, I have to admit that needs to change so I already have something to say about the rogue in the survey.
Has favored terrain vanished from Ranger? I can't seem to find it...
You say that like favored terrain is consistently useful and not reliant on the dm making the map a certain way, which would make it useless 85% of the time if the dm didn’t cater specifically to it and potentially 100% in the wrong campaign.
Has favored terrain vanished from Ranger? I can't seem to find it...
You say that like favored terrain is consistently useful and not reliant on the dm making the map a certain way, which would make it useless 85% of the time if the dm didn’t cater specifically to it and potentially 100% in the wrong campaign.
Unless they do something similar to what they did to Favored Foe. (make it a bit more general so that it can be applied a bit more widely). That would reduce it to what maybe 50%?
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Crawford said rogues are all about cheating and exploitation. It seems to be the opposite of what he said.
Looking at only mechanics, rogues only bring thieves tools expertise to the table. Sneak attack was hurt badly with the wording change "on your turn" instead of on a turn. The opportunity attack sneak was nice to having and a head action no longer applies sneak as that typically triggers on someone else's turn.
The changes to GWM and SS made martial fall further behind. It looks like they did that to make 2 weapon fighting more attractive.
I didn't see it anywhere but did they ever fix crits on more than just weapon attacks?
They said to run this UA with the 2014 crit rules and that nat 1 gives inspiration.
First of all thank you to everyone, I thought I was going to be roasted after my rogue post and I’m happy to see I didn’t and it led to a good discussion. Which leads me to my next comment - I’m not surprised at the nerfs to sneak attack, PAM, GWM, SS, etc. When you only have one or two ways that are clearly superior something is broken and you either have to find ways to bring everything else up to the (new) standard or you have to nerf the outliers. I get that a large number of folks liked the massive damage these builds generate but in a balanced game everyone should be in the same ballpark at the very least. These feats needed nerfing to bring them in line with other builds. It hurts those of us that minmaxing but helps everyone else. Guess we will find out how many vocal minmaxers there are.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Hadesisle said “They made one of the simplest Martials even more simple with absolutely zero depth.” and he is sort of half right I suspect. The thing is we are still thinking of the rogue as a “ martial” but they are thinking of it as an “expert” . The base rogue and thief subclass were never meant for frontline fighting against true martials. Will there be a martial rogue subclass later in the play test? Almost certainly. But for now look at what they gave us - Experts - Bards (+lore) , the iconic social expert and the magical expert; Ranger (+ Hunter) - the iconic nature expert with limited nature magic and the Rogue (+thief) - the iconic get in and out without being caught and some fighting ability if they do get caught. For now with this limited set if you want a “martial rogue (1dnd style) “ try a multiclass ranger- hunter/ rogue-thief and see what hat looks like. Notice they are also saying that rangers are no longer true martials but a martial expert and bards are no longer a true mage but a magical expert. At least half our problems come from trying to apply our old labels to the new concepts and it’s not working well. Working from inside the new concepts may help understand the changes better.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Entangle causes Restrained which does cause flying creatures to fall in the UA. This is distinct from Grappled. Flying creatures aren't required to move to stay aloft in either 5e or One.
It's not that bad b/c the drop in chance to hit should never be ignored. On average against creatures of CR == Character Level the new GWM does about the same amount of damage as the old GWM. The main difference is that they've eliminated the variability in DPR vs enemy AC, and decreased the incentives to getting more attacks. Only SS has been a massive nerf.
Wow you really underestimate or downplay the power of rogue at certain lvls. While I’ll agree that non spellcasters will never have the versatility of spellcasters you downplay the rogues damage potential and utility a lot.
Level 1 Rogues have sneak attack every combat no resource use. Rangers have hunters mark from favored enemy, bonus action to use and cost a spell slot. Honestly think favored enemy is going to move to second level. I’m not going to waste my time comparing them to the Bard that’s the same as comparing them to a Wizard. Magic is really special in the game until you run out of spell slots. Most DMs don’t push their players to run out of spell slots so no point doing this comparison.
Rogue 2 you admit Cunning action is big.
Rogue 3 Thief is easily the weakest rogue subclass. And I agree interact with object needs to be a part of fast hands. Arcane trickster would be better than Ranger at this level. Thief could be better depending on play styles in combat. Especially if you have a day of repeated small combats.
Rogue 4 all the same
Rogue 5 keeps you in the fight. You downplay defensive abilities, but the rogue is really hard to put down because of these.
6th supreme sneak makes those hide checks easier and give you a higher DC to be found. Arcane trickster 6th is great if they don’t change when the bring it down.
7th Rouge sneak attack damage is stating to outpace a lot of people with extra attack. Hunters mark is keeping Ranger in the mix but he is spending spell slots on that. Also rangers extra movement on land is still slower than you with a cunning action and if you are the thief you have had a climb speed for 4 levels already.
8 feats
9th rogue gets evasion. So many dex saves in this game and rogues laugh at them. Rogues are behind Bards because they are full casters. They are on par with Rangers still in combat and only behind in utility because of spells. The Ranger will have to be selective of whether to use his spells for utility or save them for hunters mark.
10 additional feat rogue is better than Ranger if you make the right choice here.
11 reliable talent the rogue is outpacing everyone’s expertise.
12 feats
13 you really downplayed this but it’s big. Crits on sneak attack are usually huge. Rogues will almost always have advantage when they get sneak attack now.
14 and above is almost all defensive because Rogues just need to live and they will do big damage. Gain proficiency in two saves is big, no advantage against the rogue is also strong. Sneak attack alone is strong offensive ability, and reliable talent gives you the best skill checks in the game. The only thing rogue is missing is magic. No matter how many skills or features you give a non spellcaster they will never have the versatility of a spell caster.
When someone says "martial," that means something different to me than you, I suspect. Martials are another way of saying "non-caster;" you have full caster, half caster, and martial. 5e's 13 classes make kind of a nice table out of it. Caster-ness on one axis, and "power source" on the other.
Barbarian - Rogue - Monk - Fighter
Ranger - Artificer - Paladin - Warlock*
Druid - Bard - Cleric - Wizard/Sorcerer
Most martials are warriors, yes, which makes the rogue a bit of an odd woman out. But that just means they have special considerations when we talk about the martial / caster divide. And tha'ts really the extent upon which we talk about martials - how are they balanced compared to other classes? And, despite not being a warrior, rogue still has a lot of the same concerns. They might not be the best at fights, but they should more than hold their own in combat, plus they have the same martial-caster divide issue when it comes to staying compettative at exploration.
If we talk about just weapon ability, then we really have to be bringing up paladin and ranger into that conversation as well. And hexblade, bladesinger, war cleric, moon druid, sword/valor/whisper bard... Which gets messy.
* yes, I consider warlock to be a half-caster, even if their funky pact magic goes all the way up to 9. Not just because EB plays like an arcane archer type, but half-casters tend to have options for pets (companions, mounts, chain'lock, golems), the whole Hex / Hunter's Mark thing, and Invocations/Imbuement similarity.
Who is using commander’s strike? The others are viable options, but if you are using commander’s strike as an example of good teamwork I have major questions about your group and how you understand the action economy. Commanders strike is trash. The thief use object should be added back into fast hands, but still a minor nerf because the best objects to use have always been magic items which you never could do. I love your statement of Alchemist fire, holy water, healers kit, and many more. I would love to talk about the many more because other than caltrops and ball bearings I can’t think of any other combat related stuff. All of this being extremely niche and not very effective in most combats. Well when you get the feature alchemist fire might still be considered good at 3rd lvl. By 6th level it’s pretty weak, but I guess your view it as extra damage. Cant call it free damage as there is a gold cost. And it’s expensive for the small damage it does.
I think they realized you shouldn’t be able to sneak attack with BB and GFB. I took BB on my high elf rogue and I loved it but remember those cantrips came after the PHB. Sneak attack alone is fair amount of damage long as they don’t actually revert to that first 1dnd UAs crit rules. Those crit rules were trash.
I don’t see that you are restricted to slipping in and out tactics. You could still go ranged. This UA Crossbow expert needs to be fixed though. You could still hide and ambush. I will acknowledge that losing the ability to ready an action to wait til your ally is next to an enemy will hinder some rogues on the first round of combat. But the new light weapons gives you two opportunities per turn to hit with your sneak attack if you do go in out tactics.
As far as numbers yes it felt like big numbers yet rogues still fall behind in damage so it is more of an illusion that they break the game. If they happen to sneak attack outside their turn which doesn't happen as often on an AoO it still doesn't break the damage numbers. The time it happen the most outside their turn was in ready action but they sacrificed their turn to do it so it didn't change the amount of damage they did and now that they can't sneak attack on ready action it just further puts them back. All sneak attack did was bring them closer in damage to other classes that had extra attack but only enough to keep up. The nerf to sneak attack just feels unjustified.
While I definitely understand psychologically feeling like rogues have lost something here, I have maybe three years of experience playing weekly with rogues and I have never seen one get sneak attack on an attack of opportunity (or otherwise off their own turn). I do not believe it happens often enough for this to reasonably be called a nerf.
Commanders strike is only worth using on a rogue to get their sneak attack. I would not use it on anything else.
That’s evidence of how good sneak attack is lol, cause you understand how trash commander’s strike is but it’s worth it to activate another sneak attack. While I don’t think it should work with features like that or spells, I do think you should be able to ready an action and you should be able to use it on opportunity attacks. Especially opportunity attacks. They don’t come up often, but the rogue should be taking full advantage of someone trying to leave their threatened space.
While I don’t agree with all the things you consider a nerf and I also see some improvement in other places I will agree that overall it is a nerf. Mainly because of the ready action and opportunity attacks. The other stuff feels like corrections, but losing the coordination of a ready action and the I dare you to move opportunity attack damage feels like a nerf.
since you put all that down, I had an idea and tried to put numbers together and it highlighted just how dependent on that invisible feature at level 13 ranger will be to keep up to pace. This is using the Thief and Hunter subclasses since that is what was shown in the UA.
I have made some assumptions to get these numbers (i.e. all attacks at 65% chance to hit), include dex modifier and +weapons, both dex mod and +weapons benefit ranger more than rogue. I have assumed TWF for the ranger's choice of fighting style, but ranger while looking a lot stronger in the early game later on it's gotta be burning spell slots for the bonus action invis to keep up with rogue. Ranger better hope their target doesn't have blind sight, see invisibility or other such sense else yikes. Ranger does have spells and other tricks that could get higher numbers (savage attacker and dual wielder feats for example, both benefit Ranger more than Rogue).
And yes, about level 13, my numbers indicate rogue would get over a 33% jump in DPS at this level... so it definitely shouldn't be downplayed.
I also might have made some mistakes in these numbers, certainly I have used probably too simple a method to calculate rogue's sneak attack critical damage, which might be slightly (but not much) higher than I have calculated. I think these numbers are still good enough for comparison tho.
EDIT: updated rogue numbers, increased after correctly calculating magical weapons
Thanks. Rogue damage t’s even better if you have lots of fights per day where spell casters fall off. But it has come to my attention that rogues lost their ability to sneak attack on opportunity attacks. While it’s not the end of the world nerf I have to accept that is slightly game changing nerf. DMs will have no fear walking away from or passed a rogue on the battle field. While I will still defend the UA rogue being okay, I have to admit that needs to change so I already have something to say about the rogue in the survey.
Has favored terrain vanished from Ranger? I can't seem to find it...
it does seem to have been removed from this playtest
You say that like favored terrain is consistently useful and not reliant on the dm making the map a certain way, which would make it useless 85% of the time if the dm didn’t cater specifically to it and potentially 100% in the wrong campaign.
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Unless they do something similar to what they did to Favored Foe. (make it a bit more general so that it can be applied a bit more widely). That would reduce it to what maybe 50%?