Hi so I looked at the new rules for one d&d and Keen Mind has a thing that allows a player to do a "Study action" as a bonus action. Literally what is that? What does it do? There is no information anywhere on it.
Hi so I looked at the new rules for one d&d and Keen Mind has a thing that allows a player to do a "Study action" as a bonus action. Literally what is that? What does it do? There is no information anywhere on it.
Keep reading, it is down in the new rules glossary of this play test. It is a new action.
I have to say the new rules around things like that seem to be trying to turn the exploration part of the game into more turn based,
I have yet to come across a situation where action economy and “studying” an environment come into place. Maybe I can now make a trap or a room and have it cost time to decipher the clues with study rolls? But in most sessions those roles happen outside of combat when bonus actions or action really doesn’t matter. This then makes things like this feat less useful in game.
Even without the bonus action part, Keen Mind is still a half feat that gives you Expertise with a potentially valuable skill. Granted, a lot of that depends on how much the DM lets you get with a knowledge skill or whether they allow Investigation to be important to circumventing traps or finding secret doors, but still.
The real impact of making Study an action is that it makes knowledge skills useless in combat unless you have Keen Mind to make the action economy reasonable again. Outside of combat, the only kind of situation where I see it being relevant is if the party is caught in a classic slow-moving death trap, like a room that's slowly flooding or with walls that are moving together, but I don't see that kind of situation very often. That's not to say the devs won't use the Study action as a hook to hang other mechanics on, but that's the upshot for now.
I have to say the new rules around things like that seem to be trying to turn the exploration part of the game into more turn based,
I have yet to come across a situation where action economy and “studying” an environment come into place. Maybe I can now make a trap or a room and have it cost time to decipher the clues with study rolls? But in most sessions those roles happen outside of combat when bonus actions or action really doesn’t matter. This then makes things like this feat less useful in game.
In my experience, when confronted with an enemy, players usually want to make Arcana/Nature/Whatever skill rolls to find out what they know about it. Since this is usually happening in combat, having a formalized mechanic is useful, especially to newer DMs.
I like that Search and Study actions are codified - it's a good first draft, but they're codified by a wrong principle. Search does both seek the surroundings for hidden creatures ans assess the medical state of a creature. Which doesn't make much sense. I would rather make Search a perception/survival check to observe surroundings and notice creatures, objects, traps and trails, while Study action would examine select objects or creatures to draw whatever information you can remember or find out about the object in question. Area (search) vs target (study).
I like that Search and Study actions are codified - it's a good first draft, but they're codified by a wrong principle. Search does both seek the surroundings for hidden creatures ans assess the medical state of a creature. Which doesn't make much sense. I would rather make Search a perception/survival check to observe surroundings and notice creatures, objects, traps and trails, while Study action would examine select objects or creatures to draw whatever information you can remember or find out about the object in question. Area (search) vs target (study).
Well they may be using the wrong language but what they are trying to do is have one action that uses wisdom checks and another that uses intelligence checks. you will notice the search action specifies you make a "Wisdom" skill check and then it explains what types of wisdom checks account for what situations. The Study action "you make an itelligence check". And then it goes on to explain what different types of intelligence apply to what. And finally INFLUENCE "you make a charisma check" and then depending on the Roll Play the type of check you will make to influence the target, and depending on the mood changes the DC and the likelihood the target will do what you wish based on what you are trying to get it to do.
This is very clear and obvious, wisdom and intelligence check, I get it. I am just telling that it's wrong. Assessing the medical state of a creature and searching the area for ambushes is the same action - does this make sense? Besides, what about animal handling? Should this be a part of Search action, because it's Wisdom check, or Influence action?
This is very clear and obvious, wisdom and intelligence check, I get it. I am just telling that it's wrong. Assessing the medical state of a creature and searching the area for ambushes is the same action - does this make sense? Besides, what about animal handling? Should this be a part of Search action, because it's Wisdom check, or Influence action?
They have it as part of the influence action, because you are attempting to influence something. In this case an animal. I believe my point is they may be using hte wrong terminology with Search and Study, but the ideas are there. You can search anything, an area or an individual. "Search your pockets see if you have anything useful.", "Search him men see if he is concealing anything." "Search your feelings you KNOW it to be true." Guy in zombie movie starts convulsing, and they search him to find a rash or a bite. Searching for food, searching an area for hidden things. I see nothing wrong with the way they have protrayed search. Everything that they have listed is something you would search for. The only ODD one is searching someone ELSES feelings as a stretch, but you could be searching their body for clues as to their emotional state.
Study is the WIERD one, because study typically insinuates some form of time, but again, nothing out of the ordinary for this one, studying objects for clues, studying the hieroglyphics, studying the creature, even the "Study your memory", while a little weird on the wording because I could see someone "searching" their memory as well, isn't entirely out their. But even studying a creature to know more about it makes more sense than searching the creature. And searching it for signs of unease to decern its motivations or feelings makes as much sense as studying it. But studying the woods to find food makes less sense than searching the woods.
Also Animal Handling with Influence is a Charisma check. So we may be seeing Animal Handling moving from a primarily wisdom skill to a primarily charisma skill in this document. Which makes sense to me.
Then again, when you search someone's pockets, it's an intelligence(Investigate) check. When you search your memory, it's intelligence(Arcana/History/Nature/Religion) check. Like I said, it makes much more sense to separate it by assessing the area (searching for something) and analyzing the object (studying it). That way feats could have a better mechanical distinction. Also, Medicine being a wisdom skill never made sense to me. It clearly belongs to intelligence, it requires education on the matter.
In my experience, when confronted with an enemy, players usually want to make Arcana/Nature/Whatever skill rolls to find out what they know about it. Since this is usually happening in combat, having a formalized mechanic is useful, especially to newer DMs.
Having a formalized mechanic is definitely useful. Having it default to a full Action to use is the wrong starting point. Yes, players usually want to make knowledge rolls to find out about their enemies, but how many wizards are going to want to spend their first action of the combat on a knowledge check instead of a spell? Who's going to decide that a chance of getting a few tidbits about one of their opponents is worth giving up their attack? It's only going to be used in combat by characters who take the Keen Mind feat, which means most character will never use it at all, and none of them before level 4.
Then again, when you search someone's pockets, it's an intelligence(Investigate) check. When you search your memory, it's intelligence(Arcana/History/Nature/Religion) check. Like I said, it makes much more sense to separate it by assessing the area (searching for something) and analyzing the object (studying it). That way feats could have a better mechanical distinction. Also, Medicine being a wisdom skill never made sense to me. It clearly belongs to intelligence, it requires education on the matter.
Searching someone's pocket is a perception wisdom check. And medicine has always been wisdom. This is medieval fantasy, not modern day. Medicine is going to be by experience and understanding rather than books and education.
In my experience, when confronted with an enemy, players usually want to make Arcana/Nature/Whatever skill rolls to find out what they know about it. Since this is usually happening in combat, having a formalized mechanic is useful, especially to newer DMs.
Having a formalized mechanic is definitely useful. Having it default to a full Action to use is the wrong starting point. Yes, players usually want to make knowledge rolls to find out about their enemies, but how many wizards are going to want to spend their first action of the combat on a knowledge check instead of a spell? Who's going to decide that a chance of getting a few tidbits about one of their opponents is worth giving up their attack? It's only going to be used in combat by characters who take the Keen Mind feat, which means most character will never use it at all, and none of them before level 4.
As a Wizard at low levels with very limited spell slots, this is probably the best action in your arsenal other than maybe shoot it with a light crossbow. Anything that requires a roll has always taken an action as far as I know, people just liked to gloss over that and ignore it though. If you want info at levels before 4 an action is a small price to pay.
(though in my mind keen mind should be a first level feat and all +1's should be removed from feats and just gained at the appropriate levels.)
Searching someone's pocket is a perception wisdom check. And medicine has always been wisdom. This is medieval fantasy, not modern day. Medicine is going to be by experience and understanding rather than books and education.
Even in ancient times, medicine was a discipline. Knowledge of herbs, ointments, and rituals was passed down from witch doctors to their apprentices, and then written down in manuscripts. If Nature skill is knowledge, how come Medicine isn't?
Searching someone's pocket is a perception wisdom check. And medicine has always been wisdom. This is medieval fantasy, not modern day. Medicine is going to be by experience and understanding rather than books and education.
Even in ancient times, medicine was a discipline. Knowledge of herbs, ointments, and rituals was passed down from witch doctors to their apprentices, and then written down in manuscripts. If Nature skill is knowledge, how come Medicine isn't?
Let's try another explanation. There is only so much about medicine you learn from in books. Actually doing and practicing is how someone truly becomes a doctor or a surgeon. Even in current times you could ace every medical exam you have, but they aren't going to let a fresh resident out of college operate without actually experiencing the theoretical in action. Nature is the theoretical, for more than just anatomy of people, but for plants animals and all of that. Medicine is the practical application which takes experience and understanding of the theoretical, thus taking wisdom. I am 100% ok with medicine being intelligence under certain circumstances, the theoretical being the prime case, but the PRACTICE of medicine, the physical application takes more than knowledge, it takes understanding how to apply that knowledge. Which is wisdom.
Let's try another explanation. There is only so much about medicine you learn from in books. Actually doing and practicing is how someone truly becomes a doctor or a surgeon. Even in current times you could ace every medical exam you have, but they aren't going to let a fresh resident out of college operate without actually experiencing the theoretical in action. Nature is the theoretical, for more than just anatomy of people, but for plants animals and all of that. Medicine is the practical application which takes experience and understanding of the theoretical, thus taking wisdom. I am 100% ok with medicine being intelligence under certain circumstances, the theoretical being the prime case, but the PRACTICE of medicine, the physical application takes more than knowledge, it takes understanding how to apply that knowledge. Which is wisdom.
Wisdom, as stated in the PHB, is perceptiveness and intuition. If you need to perform a surgery, that kinda helps, but what it really requires is extreme manual precision, which is Dexterity) But really, I'm against hard ties between stats and skills, and I favor a lot of cross-checking, mostly for Intelligence in conversations (like Int(Persuasion) to make a logical, sound argument, or Int(Deception) to make up a convincing lie or engage in demagogy). DnD5e is... not quite perfect for some things, but it allows workarounds.
As a Wizard at low levels with very limited spell slots, this is probably the best action in your arsenal other than maybe shoot it with a light crossbow. Anything that requires a roll has always taken an action as far as I know, people just liked to gloss over that and ignore it though. If you want info at levels before 4 an action is a small price to pay.
(though in my mind keen mind should be a first level feat and all +1's should be removed from feats and just gained at the appropriate levels.)
What opposition do you expect a 1st level Wizard to be facing where a knowledge check is going to be more impactful than an attack cantrip or light crossbow attack? Is learning that a Gazer has a fear ray more critical than reducing its hp so the Fighter can finish it off before it can use it? Does knowing a Ghoul has paralyzing claws meaningfully change a 1st level party's tactics against one, to the extent that forgoing a turn's worth of damage is worthwhile?
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Hi so I looked at the new rules for one d&d and Keen Mind has a thing that allows a player to do a "Study action" as a bonus action. Literally what is that? What does it do? There is no information anywhere on it.
Keep reading, it is down in the new rules glossary of this play test. It is a new action.
I have to say the new rules around things like that seem to be trying to turn the exploration part of the game into more turn based,
I have yet to come across a situation where action economy and “studying” an environment come into place. Maybe I can now make a trap or a room and have it cost time to decipher the clues with study rolls? But in most sessions those roles happen outside of combat when bonus actions or action really doesn’t matter. This then makes things like this feat less useful in game.
Even without the bonus action part, Keen Mind is still a half feat that gives you Expertise with a potentially valuable skill. Granted, a lot of that depends on how much the DM lets you get with a knowledge skill or whether they allow Investigation to be important to circumventing traps or finding secret doors, but still.
The real impact of making Study an action is that it makes knowledge skills useless in combat unless you have Keen Mind to make the action economy reasonable again. Outside of combat, the only kind of situation where I see it being relevant is if the party is caught in a classic slow-moving death trap, like a room that's slowly flooding or with walls that are moving together, but I don't see that kind of situation very often. That's not to say the devs won't use the Study action as a hook to hang other mechanics on, but that's the upshot for now.
In my experience, when confronted with an enemy, players usually want to make Arcana/Nature/Whatever skill rolls to find out what they know about it. Since this is usually happening in combat, having a formalized mechanic is useful, especially to newer DMs.
I like that Search and Study actions are codified - it's a good first draft, but they're codified by a wrong principle. Search does both seek the surroundings for hidden creatures ans assess the medical state of a creature. Which doesn't make much sense. I would rather make Search a perception/survival check to observe surroundings and notice creatures, objects, traps and trails, while Study action would examine select objects or creatures to draw whatever information you can remember or find out about the object in question. Area (search) vs target (study).
Well they may be using the wrong language but what they are trying to do is have one action that uses wisdom checks and another that uses intelligence checks. you will notice the search action specifies you make a "Wisdom" skill check and then it explains what types of wisdom checks account for what situations. The Study action "you make an itelligence check". And then it goes on to explain what different types of intelligence apply to what. And finally INFLUENCE "you make a charisma check" and then depending on the Roll Play the type of check you will make to influence the target, and depending on the mood changes the DC and the likelihood the target will do what you wish based on what you are trying to get it to do.
This is very clear and obvious, wisdom and intelligence check, I get it. I am just telling that it's wrong. Assessing the medical state of a creature and searching the area for ambushes is the same action - does this make sense? Besides, what about animal handling? Should this be a part of Search action, because it's Wisdom check, or Influence action?
They have it as part of the influence action, because you are attempting to influence something. In this case an animal. I believe my point is they may be using hte wrong terminology with Search and Study, but the ideas are there. You can search anything, an area or an individual. "Search your pockets see if you have anything useful.", "Search him men see if he is concealing anything." "Search your feelings you KNOW it to be true." Guy in zombie movie starts convulsing, and they search him to find a rash or a bite. Searching for food, searching an area for hidden things. I see nothing wrong with the way they have protrayed search. Everything that they have listed is something you would search for. The only ODD one is searching someone ELSES feelings as a stretch, but you could be searching their body for clues as to their emotional state.
Study is the WIERD one, because study typically insinuates some form of time, but again, nothing out of the ordinary for this one, studying objects for clues, studying the hieroglyphics, studying the creature, even the "Study your memory", while a little weird on the wording because I could see someone "searching" their memory as well, isn't entirely out their. But even studying a creature to know more about it makes more sense than searching the creature. And searching it for signs of unease to decern its motivations or feelings makes as much sense as studying it. But studying the woods to find food makes less sense than searching the woods.
Also Animal Handling with Influence is a Charisma check. So we may be seeing Animal Handling moving from a primarily wisdom skill to a primarily charisma skill in this document. Which makes sense to me.
Then again, when you search someone's pockets, it's an intelligence(Investigate) check. When you search your memory, it's intelligence(Arcana/History/Nature/Religion) check. Like I said, it makes much more sense to separate it by assessing the area (searching for something) and analyzing the object (studying it). That way feats could have a better mechanical distinction. Also, Medicine being a wisdom skill never made sense to me. It clearly belongs to intelligence, it requires education on the matter.
Having a formalized mechanic is definitely useful. Having it default to a full Action to use is the wrong starting point. Yes, players usually want to make knowledge rolls to find out about their enemies, but how many wizards are going to want to spend their first action of the combat on a knowledge check instead of a spell? Who's going to decide that a chance of getting a few tidbits about one of their opponents is worth giving up their attack? It's only going to be used in combat by characters who take the Keen Mind feat, which means most character will never use it at all, and none of them before level 4.
Searching someone's pocket is a perception wisdom check. And medicine has always been wisdom. This is medieval fantasy, not modern day. Medicine is going to be by experience and understanding rather than books and education.
As a Wizard at low levels with very limited spell slots, this is probably the best action in your arsenal other than maybe shoot it with a light crossbow. Anything that requires a roll has always taken an action as far as I know, people just liked to gloss over that and ignore it though. If you want info at levels before 4 an action is a small price to pay.
(though in my mind keen mind should be a first level feat and all +1's should be removed from feats and just gained at the appropriate levels.)
Even in ancient times, medicine was a discipline. Knowledge of herbs, ointments, and rituals was passed down from witch doctors to their apprentices, and then written down in manuscripts. If Nature skill is knowledge, how come Medicine isn't?
Let's try another explanation. There is only so much about medicine you learn from in books. Actually doing and practicing is how someone truly becomes a doctor or a surgeon. Even in current times you could ace every medical exam you have, but they aren't going to let a fresh resident out of college operate without actually experiencing the theoretical in action. Nature is the theoretical, for more than just anatomy of people, but for plants animals and all of that. Medicine is the practical application which takes experience and understanding of the theoretical, thus taking wisdom. I am 100% ok with medicine being intelligence under certain circumstances, the theoretical being the prime case, but the PRACTICE of medicine, the physical application takes more than knowledge, it takes understanding how to apply that knowledge. Which is wisdom.
Wisdom, as stated in the PHB, is perceptiveness and intuition. If you need to perform a surgery, that kinda helps, but what it really requires is extreme manual precision, which is Dexterity) But really, I'm against hard ties between stats and skills, and I favor a lot of cross-checking, mostly for Intelligence in conversations (like Int(Persuasion) to make a logical, sound argument, or Int(Deception) to make up a convincing lie or engage in demagogy). DnD5e is... not quite perfect for some things, but it allows workarounds.
What opposition do you expect a 1st level Wizard to be facing where a knowledge check is going to be more impactful than an attack cantrip or light crossbow attack? Is learning that a Gazer has a fear ray more critical than reducing its hp so the Fighter can finish it off before it can use it? Does knowing a Ghoul has paralyzing claws meaningfully change a 1st level party's tactics against one, to the extent that forgoing a turn's worth of damage is worthwhile?