There is a lot going on with each class in this play test. So I thought it might be good to separate them out and really discuss what playtesting has been like with each of them.
So far Rogue's nerfs have been a little less noticeable than I thought they would be, however they are still present. Light weapon does a lot to free up a rogues action economy and has made dashing around the battle field incredibly fun. The fast hands search ability has also been helpful, but not as helpful as I would have hoped. In addition, it feels less like a thief and I found myself playing more like an inquisitor rogue in that case. Second story work also felt really good as a means to get to places other people would struggle to reach, though I found myself really wishing I could jump as a bonus action as well.
Supreme sneak made me feel getting items like boots of elven kind and cloaks of elven kind as magic items were useless, which they are when you have it, in addition it also made me feel bad for getting stealth as an expertise. With advantage making that DC 15 check was not all that difficult even without expertise and with my tendency to break the stealth within a round or 2 of gaining it and the enemies tendency to just focus on someone else rather than waste a search action trying to find me making the check to find me more difficult was redundant.
Finally, I felt the most defining feature for the thief was actually the level 10 feature use magic device. This feature is entirely GM dependent. If you never get enough items to need more than 3 attunements, never get items with charges and scrolls are few and far between this feature might as well be blank. If the GM is handing out enough magic items that you can get 4 attunement then the magic items are allowing the whole party to punch way above their level as it is. The best thing that could happen was providing some low level spell scrolls and an item or 2 that had charges so that the rogue could cast a few utility spells and could occasionally get an extra use out of a magic item. Ultimately, I was both impressed by and ultimately disappointed in this feature. It can be really good and make rogues very powerful, but you will only ever be as powerful as the magic items you can get your hands on.
Finally Thieves reflexes felt very limited. I had to both search for times that I could use it, my best time was using the search bonus action to find a magic scroll with fast hands, and then using those same fast hands pick pocketing the wizard that had it, and using the magic action to cast a powerful scroll all in the same turn. But finding moments like this was few and far between. I didn't LOOK for ways to use this as often because I knew my uses were limited so I just waited for something to come up for it to be useful. The search function from fast hands was my primary way of finding ways to use thieves reflexes.
Overall, I still believe rogues need a little bit of help. Some form of skills or a little extra damage in T2 of play as my utility was just as limited as I was worried it would be in T2 of play until level 11 by comparison to the other experts.
Thank you taking the time to write up all this. Most of us have only been working in theories so far. It's really good to hear some actual experience with the rules!
We use a virtual battlemap which generates line of site, for us hide was almost impossible in most encounters with the hide rules in place. The Thief could find 3/4 cover plenty of times but only vs some of the enemies. It sort of reminds me of controllers in 4e, as a DM I felt like I had to spend extra time making scenarios just so they would have ways to use their abilities effectively, and here I feel like I have to spend extra time designing the maps/encounters to give hide spots for the rogue. It was just one night of it, 3 combat encounters and I went theater of the mind of out of combat stealth which was more generous. But I am not sure it will get better when playing it straight.
5e is a bit less obscure on hiding rules so I leaned into grey areas to give rogues opportunities to sneak. Here the rules are clearer, but it really seems to hamstring sneaking. Otherwise I think our experiences were similar.
We use a virtual battlemap which generates line of site, for us hide was almost impossible in most encounters with the hide rules in place. The Thief could find 3/4 cover plenty of times but only vs some of the enemies. It sort of reminds me of controllers in 4e, as a DM I felt like I had to spend extra time making scenarios just so they would have ways to use their abilities effectively, and here I feel like I have to spend extra time designing the maps/encounters to give hide spots for the rogue. It was just one night of it, 3 combat encounters and I went theater of the mind of out of combat stealth which was more generous. But I am not sure it will get better when playing it straight.
5e is a bit less obscure on hiding rules so I leaned into grey areas to give rogues opportunities to sneak. Here the rules are clearer, but it really seems to hamstring sneaking. Otherwise I think our experiences were similar.
I will say I play a vast majority theater of the mind, so things like cover were easier than if we had used a map. Probably painted my experience a little.
I see few people mentioning Thieves tools no longer being valid for any form of expertise. this is a huge nerf for our party lock experts.
It is, though they may associate locks/traps with a skill so then characters who had both would have advantage. While in that specific arena it is fairly massive in our experience locks/traps don't come up enough to make this much of a nerf for the rogue as a whole. I will say I'd like expertise to be able to be used on tools in general. If the bard wants to put expertise in cooking as they are a master chef, let them.
I agree that Use Magic Device and Supreme Sneak need substitutes. One is entirely at the mercy of DM, another is redundant. Fast Hands needs "Use Item" application. Second Story Work could use a fall damage reduction.
I see few people mentioning Thieves tools no longer being valid for any form of expertise. this is a huge nerf for our party lock experts.
The Thief class seems to hint that lockpicking is now falling under the Slight of Hand skill. So, you need to take an extra skill compared to 5e, but you also get advantage on the check to balance it out. Which means you get an effective +9 to lockpicking by level 2. Kinda nice.
Worth noting: Hide has historically been something you use against a specific target, not in general. The phrase "I Hide" is incomplete and should be finished with "from [Target]." Goomba D being able to see you doesn't mean you're not hidden from Boss Ultra.
Worth noting: Hide has historically been something you use against a specific target, not in general. The phrase "I Hide" is incomplete and should be finished with "from [Target]." Goomba D being able to see you doesn't mean you're not hidden from Boss Ultra.
I think part of this is the "onednd" concept. so the dnd videogames and such have a status that Is easily interactable from a AI perspective. There are both general and specific target Status effects. (Charmed vs Invisible) but they didn't call out what hiding is in the playtest.
There is a lot going on with each class in this play test. So I thought it might be good to separate them out and really discuss what playtesting has been like with each of them.
So far Rogue's nerfs have been a little less noticeable than I thought they would be, however they are still present. Light weapon does a lot to free up a rogues action economy and has made dashing around the battle field incredibly fun. The fast hands search ability has also been helpful, but not as helpful as I would have hoped. In addition, it feels less like a thief and I found myself playing more like an inquisitor rogue in that case. Second story work also felt really good as a means to get to places other people would struggle to reach, though I found myself really wishing I could jump as a bonus action as well.
Supreme sneak made me feel getting items like boots of elven kind and cloaks of elven kind as magic items were useless, which they are when you have it, in addition it also made me feel bad for getting stealth as an expertise. With advantage making that DC 15 check was not all that difficult even without expertise and with my tendency to break the stealth within a round or 2 of gaining it and the enemies tendency to just focus on someone else rather than waste a search action trying to find me making the check to find me more difficult was redundant.
Finally, I felt the most defining feature for the thief was actually the level 10 feature use magic device. This feature is entirely GM dependent. If you never get enough items to need more than 3 attunements, never get items with charges and scrolls are few and far between this feature might as well be blank. If the GM is handing out enough magic items that you can get 4 attunement then the magic items are allowing the whole party to punch way above their level as it is. The best thing that could happen was providing some low level spell scrolls and an item or 2 that had charges so that the rogue could cast a few utility spells and could occasionally get an extra use out of a magic item. Ultimately, I was both impressed by and ultimately disappointed in this feature. It can be really good and make rogues very powerful, but you will only ever be as powerful as the magic items you can get your hands on.
Finally Thieves reflexes felt very limited. I had to both search for times that I could use it, my best time was using the search bonus action to find a magic scroll with fast hands, and then using those same fast hands pick pocketing the wizard that had it, and using the magic action to cast a powerful scroll all in the same turn. But finding moments like this was few and far between. I didn't LOOK for ways to use this as often because I knew my uses were limited so I just waited for something to come up for it to be useful. The search function from fast hands was my primary way of finding ways to use thieves reflexes.
Overall, I still believe rogues need a little bit of help. Some form of skills or a little extra damage in T2 of play as my utility was just as limited as I was worried it would be in T2 of play until level 11 by comparison to the other experts.
What has your experience been with the rogue?
Thank you taking the time to write up all this. Most of us have only been working in theories so far. It's really good to hear some actual experience with the rules!
I see few people mentioning Thieves tools no longer being valid for any form of expertise. this is a huge nerf for our party lock experts.
We use a virtual battlemap which generates line of site, for us hide was almost impossible in most encounters with the hide rules in place. The Thief could find 3/4 cover plenty of times but only vs some of the enemies. It sort of reminds me of controllers in 4e, as a DM I felt like I had to spend extra time making scenarios just so they would have ways to use their abilities effectively, and here I feel like I have to spend extra time designing the maps/encounters to give hide spots for the rogue. It was just one night of it, 3 combat encounters and I went theater of the mind of out of combat stealth which was more generous. But I am not sure it will get better when playing it straight.
5e is a bit less obscure on hiding rules so I leaned into grey areas to give rogues opportunities to sneak. Here the rules are clearer, but it really seems to hamstring sneaking. Otherwise I think our experiences were similar.
I will say I play a vast majority theater of the mind, so things like cover were easier than if we had used a map. Probably painted my experience a little.
It is, though they may associate locks/traps with a skill so then characters who had both would have advantage. While in that specific arena it is fairly massive in our experience locks/traps don't come up enough to make this much of a nerf for the rogue as a whole. I will say I'd like expertise to be able to be used on tools in general. If the bard wants to put expertise in cooking as they are a master chef, let them.
I agree that Use Magic Device and Supreme Sneak need substitutes. One is entirely at the mercy of DM, another is redundant. Fast Hands needs "Use Item" application. Second Story Work could use a fall damage reduction.
The Thief class seems to hint that lockpicking is now falling under the Slight of Hand skill. So, you need to take an extra skill compared to 5e, but you also get advantage on the check to balance it out. Which means you get an effective +9 to lockpicking by level 2. Kinda nice.
Worth noting: Hide has historically been something you use against a specific target, not in general. The phrase "I Hide" is incomplete and should be finished with "from [Target]." Goomba D being able to see you doesn't mean you're not hidden from Boss Ultra.
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I think part of this is the "onednd" concept. so the dnd videogames and such have a status that Is easily interactable from a AI perspective. There are both general and specific target Status effects. (Charmed vs Invisible) but they didn't call out what hiding is in the playtest.
It definitely needs clarification.
Edit: I moved my comments on hiding to is own thread to avoid cluttering this one with things that aren't specific to rogue feedback.