Why do people have a problem with Guidance and a desire to make it a first level spell, when it and Resistance are just portions of Bless?
i just don’t understand it
Guidance as a first level spell exists in Bless
if Guidance is a problem as a Cantrip (And as a DM I don’t see it as a problem) then add Bless into the Cleric class actions as a twice per short rest and cull Guidance, Resistance & Bless from the spell lists
that won’t be liked either, but I’m not sure of the cure (if one is needed at all).
Well it needs to be limited, but I think it should be "You can't cast it on the same person again until you finish a long rest." rather than preventing the person you cast it on from gaining the benefit again. It is just most people want to add "you can cast this a number of times = to proficiency bonus" or the like which defeats the purpose of it being a cantrip and makes it feel more like a class feature.
Stavros has a point though, that making it a first level spell would be weird since Bless exists, and both Guidance and Resistance are just part of the overall benefit of Bless. It would need to have a very different effect to be worth the spell slot.
No one complains about Resistance, because saves are much more rare than skill checks. And because you almost never have warning before a save is called for. So it doesn't get spammed. It just... doesn't get used. It would be very handy if it was a Reaction instead of concentration action. It probably wouldn't be overpowered either.
Guidance is a problem because it gets used all the time, breaking the flow and immersion of the game. No solutions so far seem to be perfect. The concept is cool, but the mechanics just aren't there.
The Arcane list has 17 cantrips, and doesn't even include some from other books yet (over 30 total with those!). The Primal list has 10 (18 if they bring back ones from other books). The Divine list has only 6.... (9 total including supplements)
Six cantrips to choose from.
That's it.
Thaumaturgy - everyone gets a cool, mostly RP spell
Light - everyone gets a lantern replacement spell
Sacred Flame - the only damage cantrip they get
Spare The Dying - the healer's kit replacement spell
Then Guidance and Resistance. Spells that represent a small part of a similar 1st level spell. That are either so situational they don't get used, or so useful they get used all the time to great annoyance.
We could get rid of Guidance and Resistance, but that would leave only 4 cantrips to customize your character. And only 1 of those doesn't have a similar spell in another list. I'm beginning to think WotC is bad at thinking up thematic spells for divine classes...
The best solution to all of it that I can think of is:
1 - Make Resistance a Reaction casting time, with a range of 30 feet. That way it will be much easier to use, and probably get chosen actually. There aren't nearly as many saves rolled in a day compared to skill checks. So it won't be spammed like Guidance. And you only get one Reaction a turn, so you can't save everyone in a fireball, for example. Since it is only a 1d4, it won't always make a difference anyway. But it's still worth something. If it's still too strong as a Reaction, limit the range more if needed. This all makes it feel like a precursor to a paladin's aura, which is nice thematically.
2 - Give every domain a free cantrip, chosen from a list with at least one option from Arcana or Primal lists. This gives Divine casters more options for cantrips, and they can all fit thematically to the domain. There are a lot of good cantrips for domains, they're just in the other lists. Currently the domains do this sometimes, but they're all over the place. For example, Grave Domain gives you Spare The Dying. But that's already one of the few cantrip options on your list. Give them the choice between that or Toll the Dead. It fits the theme nicely.
3 - Guidance. Give it the range of Self.
Every other solution to guidance has unintended problems. This one might too. But I think it could work. You can only cast it on yourself. You have to prepare for it and concentrate on it, so you might get to use it once in a social encounter, for example. A cleric usually doesn't have very good skill proficiencies. So if your rogue is searching a room, you're probably better off using the Help action than casting this on yourself. It's not going to be too strong. And it's not going to be spammed too much.
You are the one who the gods like anyway, not your friends. Praying for their help in a task you have ahead feels right. "Goddess please guide me in this thing I'm bad at."
The only potential for abuse I see is an Expert class getting it. Rangers have it now. It would probably be too much added to their own expertise. But maybe not with the other restrictions. They could always take it off the Primal list completely. And limit it to a flat +2 bonus or something.
People don't like Guidance because the cleric shouting " GUIDANCE!" seventy times a session will eventually make the DM want to run into traffic, and the other players won't be too far behind. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, remembers the (many, many) limitations on Guidance:
1.) It lasts one minute 2.) You must touch the target 3.) You must actively invoke the spell, providing spell components for it 4.) The target must know they're doing something that requires Guiding
I have strict rules for how and where Guidance can be used in my campaigns. Namely, the action to be Guided must be one that is premeditated and planned out, something both parties know is happening, and something that can be reasonably accomplished within a minute*. You cannot Guide Perception, Insight, or other "do I see something funny?" checks out of the blue (frankly those should usually be passive scores anyways), you cannot Guide a check someone makes off the cuff in reaction to sudden circumstances, and you cannot Guide someone in an activity they're spending hours doing. Activities which may take more than a minute but which can be materially aided within that minute, such as searching a body, are valid, but activities such as "I spend my three weeks' downtime crafting armor from this bulette hide!" cannot. That is the domain of Magecraft, not Guidance.
Guidance is the priest resting a hand on the recipient's shoulder and saying "may the Goddess light your way" in a manner many will recognize as the invocation of minor divine power, followed by the recipient then using that spark of strength to aid their action. Jestering your Guidance spell is a swift recipe for getting the spell stricken from your sheet at my table - no one's done it yet, but if someone were to try and be a spammy abusive jackwagon with Guidance at my table, they would find their deity revoking their access to that spell.
That said? The current 1DD playtest version is awful. Wizards needs to go back to the drawing board with this one. Resistance being a "boost someone else's save using your reaction!" cantrip could be cool as a Priest class, generally known for their support. But no cantrip is allowed to have a daily use limit. This Guidance is just downright bad. Normal Guidance is bad because people are complete jerks with it, but this one is bad because it's bad.
Completely agree, especially with the last sentiment, haha.
It sounds like you run a reasonable table with reasonable people that don't take advantage of the rules. That's awesome.
Unfortunately, rules have to be written with as few loopholes and pitfalls as possible. Doing so helps manage the argumentative players, helps new players understand the game better, and helps run organized play. The 5e rules for Guidance are really bad at that. The new ones are unplayable.
With the current 5e rules, some players might argue that their characters would want their Cleric's help on any task. The guiding hand of their god is freely available. Why not accept it?
So they yell out 'Guidance!' on every skill check. The DM might say they need to call it BEFORE the check. So the player then argues that their characters would be aware of how the world works, so they would have reasonably talked about it beforehand. "I'm going to search this room for clues, can I get some help from the big guy?" Then they quickly grow tired of asking all the time, so they handwave it. That's how you get tables that just add 1d4 to every roll. Then it's not even magical anymore, it's just an overpowered bonus to everything because someone took the right cantrip at level 1.
Other tables yell it out and argue every time whether it should apply here or not. They might do it politely, but there is definitely some pressure put on the DM with light begging. At least one very popular live stream does this...
Ideally, everyone has the conversation once before playing and they are all in the same page. It just sounds like that's pretty rare. So the spell definitely has to change. The only option I can think of to keep it is to make it target only the caster. At least then they are responsible for thinking about all of the restrictions mentioned. And the DM can easily get that one player on board with when it is, and is not, reasonable.
Really, a lot of this comes down to applying the model to the wrong spell. Resistance would be excellent with this reaction-based model, and frankly I might homebrew that version for our own games. I think it would be particularly interesting with the caveat that it cannot target the caster, so the cleric doesn't get to boost their own saves, but frankly if the dingdong can get a +5 to all saves just by existing, the cleric could get a +1d4 to one save per reaction if it can cast without breaking the game. And when the whole party gets firebombed by a breath weapon, the cleric gets to decide who gets to try and squeak a success because that one cleric can only try and save one person. I think Resistance could be a lot of fun with this sort of build.
But Guidance? Not gonna lie - I think Guidance just flat-out needs to go. A flat boost to checks is too much for a cantrip for tables that aren't capable of exercising restraint, and "restraint" is not a trait the average D&D player is known for. Give players a button labeled "This will help you make checks, but over the long run it'll make your game worse and sap your DM's willingness to run the thing", and the average player will never not press that button. After all, nailing a check is super important right now, and all that other stuff is Future Them's Problem - plus why is nailing checks bad, right??????
Yeah. I think the spell's core functionality needs to change. To what, I have no idea, but I can't readily conceive of a model for Guidance that both fits the essential nature of a cantrip and alleviates Terrible Guidance Spam issues. And if the current 1DD playtest is the best Wizards can do, I'd rather have an entirely new cantrip under the same name than try and retain the boost to checks.
Really, a lot of this comes down to applying the model to the wrong spell. Resistance would be excellent with this reaction-based model, and frankly I might homebrew that version for our own games. I think it would be particularly interesting with the caveat that it cannot target the caster, so the cleric doesn't get to boost their own saves, but frankly if the dingdong can get a +5 to all saves just by existing, the cleric could get a +1d4 to one save per reaction if it can cast without breaking the game. And when the whole party gets firebombed by a breath weapon, the cleric gets to decide who gets to try and squeak a success because that one cleric can only try and save one person. I think Resistance could be a lot of fun with this sort of build.
But Guidance? Not gonna lie - I think Guidance just flat-out needs to go. A flat boost to checks is too much for a cantrip for tables that aren't capable of exercising restraint, and "restraint" is not a trait the average D&D player is known for. Give players a button labeled "This will help you make checks, but over the long run it'll make your game worse and sap your DM's willingness to run the thing", and the average player will never not press that button. After all, nailing a check is super important right now, and all that other stuff is Future Them's Problem - plus why is nailing checks bad, right??????
Yeah. I think the spell's core functionality needs to change. To what, I have no idea, but I can't readily conceive of a model for Guidance that both fits the essential nature of a cantrip and alleviates Terrible Guidance Spam issues. And if the current 1DD playtest is the best Wizards can do, I'd rather have an entirely new cantrip under the same name than try and retain the boost to checks.
I don't think we can have it all. Best option imo is to just make it a reaction 1st level spell and boost the effect to have a bigger die, maybe even left it be upcasted. Handles the spam issue by tying it to spell slots.
It's a tight spot also because if Guidance has to go for being a poorly-designed cantrip (or get bumped up to level 1), where do clerics go for utility? After Thaumaturgy (itself very limited compared to Prestidigitation or Druidcraft), there's not much there. Druids at least get some elemental cantrips, but clerics are left with the likes of Light (great job, you saved us a torch). I think half the reason for its popularity is that it's one of the few useful non-combat cantrips clerics get, which is why I think a nerfed version would still get taken, people would just forget to use it or second-guess each limited use.
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Why do people have a problem with Guidance and a desire to make it a first level spell, when it and Resistance are just portions of Bless?
i just don’t understand it
Guidance as a first level spell exists in Bless
if Guidance is a problem as a Cantrip (And as a DM I don’t see it as a problem) then add Bless into the Cleric class actions as a twice per short rest and cull Guidance, Resistance & Bless from the spell lists
that won’t be liked either, but I’m not sure of the cure (if one is needed at all).
Bless adds 1d4 to Attacks and Saving Throws for up to 3 targets for an entire minute with a 1st level slot.
Guidance adds 1d4 to an ability check, once, before it has to be recasted.
Wouldn't call it a part of bless.
Main problem though isn't so much the power of Guidance but how spamming it can sort of break the narrative pacing.
Well it needs to be limited, but I think it should be "You can't cast it on the same person again until you finish a long rest." rather than preventing the person you cast it on from gaining the benefit again. It is just most people want to add "you can cast this a number of times = to proficiency bonus" or the like which defeats the purpose of it being a cantrip and makes it feel more like a class feature.
Stavros has a point though, that making it a first level spell would be weird since Bless exists, and both Guidance and Resistance are just part of the overall benefit of Bless. It would need to have a very different effect to be worth the spell slot.
No one complains about Resistance, because saves are much more rare than skill checks. And because you almost never have warning before a save is called for. So it doesn't get spammed. It just... doesn't get used. It would be very handy if it was a Reaction instead of concentration action. It probably wouldn't be overpowered either.
Guidance is a problem because it gets used all the time, breaking the flow and immersion of the game. No solutions so far seem to be perfect. The concept is cool, but the mechanics just aren't there.
The Arcane list has 17 cantrips, and doesn't even include some from other books yet (over 30 total with those!). The Primal list has 10 (18 if they bring back ones from other books). The Divine list has only 6.... (9 total including supplements)
Six cantrips to choose from.
That's it.
Thaumaturgy - everyone gets a cool, mostly RP spell
Light - everyone gets a lantern replacement spell
Sacred Flame - the only damage cantrip they get
Spare The Dying - the healer's kit replacement spell
Then Guidance and Resistance. Spells that represent a small part of a similar 1st level spell. That are either so situational they don't get used, or so useful they get used all the time to great annoyance.
We could get rid of Guidance and Resistance, but that would leave only 4 cantrips to customize your character. And only 1 of those doesn't have a similar spell in another list. I'm beginning to think WotC is bad at thinking up thematic spells for divine classes...
The best solution to all of it that I can think of is:
1 - Make Resistance a Reaction casting time, with a range of 30 feet. That way it will be much easier to use, and probably get chosen actually. There aren't nearly as many saves rolled in a day compared to skill checks. So it won't be spammed like Guidance. And you only get one Reaction a turn, so you can't save everyone in a fireball, for example. Since it is only a 1d4, it won't always make a difference anyway. But it's still worth something. If it's still too strong as a Reaction, limit the range more if needed. This all makes it feel like a precursor to a paladin's aura, which is nice thematically.
2 - Give every domain a free cantrip, chosen from a list with at least one option from Arcana or Primal lists. This gives Divine casters more options for cantrips, and they can all fit thematically to the domain. There are a lot of good cantrips for domains, they're just in the other lists. Currently the domains do this sometimes, but they're all over the place. For example, Grave Domain gives you Spare The Dying. But that's already one of the few cantrip options on your list. Give them the choice between that or Toll the Dead. It fits the theme nicely.
3 - Guidance. Give it the range of Self.
Every other solution to guidance has unintended problems. This one might too. But I think it could work. You can only cast it on yourself. You have to prepare for it and concentrate on it, so you might get to use it once in a social encounter, for example. A cleric usually doesn't have very good skill proficiencies. So if your rogue is searching a room, you're probably better off using the Help action than casting this on yourself. It's not going to be too strong. And it's not going to be spammed too much.
You are the one who the gods like anyway, not your friends. Praying for their help in a task you have ahead feels right. "Goddess please guide me in this thing I'm bad at."
The only potential for abuse I see is an Expert class getting it. Rangers have it now. It would probably be too much added to their own expertise. But maybe not with the other restrictions. They could always take it off the Primal list completely. And limit it to a flat +2 bonus or something.
That's all I got.
People don't like Guidance because the cleric shouting " GUIDANCE!" seventy times a session will eventually make the DM want to run into traffic, and the other players won't be too far behind. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, remembers the (many, many) limitations on Guidance:
1.) It lasts one minute
2.) You must touch the target
3.) You must actively invoke the spell, providing spell components for it
4.) The target must know they're doing something that requires Guiding
I have strict rules for how and where Guidance can be used in my campaigns. Namely, the action to be Guided must be one that is premeditated and planned out, something both parties know is happening, and something that can be reasonably accomplished within a minute*. You cannot Guide Perception, Insight, or other "do I see something funny?" checks out of the blue (frankly those should usually be passive scores anyways), you cannot Guide a check someone makes off the cuff in reaction to sudden circumstances, and you cannot Guide someone in an activity they're spending hours doing. Activities which may take more than a minute but which can be materially aided within that minute, such as searching a body, are valid, but activities such as "I spend my three weeks' downtime crafting armor from this bulette hide!" cannot. That is the domain of Magecraft, not Guidance.
Guidance is the priest resting a hand on the recipient's shoulder and saying "may the Goddess light your way" in a manner many will recognize as the invocation of minor divine power, followed by the recipient then using that spark of strength to aid their action. Jestering your Guidance spell is a swift recipe for getting the spell stricken from your sheet at my table - no one's done it yet, but if someone were to try and be a spammy abusive jackwagon with Guidance at my table, they would find their deity revoking their access to that spell.
That said? The current 1DD playtest version is awful. Wizards needs to go back to the drawing board with this one. Resistance being a "boost someone else's save using your reaction!" cantrip could be cool as a Priest class, generally known for their support. But no cantrip is allowed to have a daily use limit. This Guidance is just downright bad. Normal Guidance is bad because people are complete jerks with it, but this one is bad because it's bad.
Please do not contact or message me.
Completely agree, especially with the last sentiment, haha.
It sounds like you run a reasonable table with reasonable people that don't take advantage of the rules. That's awesome.
Unfortunately, rules have to be written with as few loopholes and pitfalls as possible. Doing so helps manage the argumentative players, helps new players understand the game better, and helps run organized play. The 5e rules for Guidance are really bad at that. The new ones are unplayable.
With the current 5e rules, some players might argue that their characters would want their Cleric's help on any task. The guiding hand of their god is freely available. Why not accept it?
So they yell out 'Guidance!' on every skill check. The DM might say they need to call it BEFORE the check. So the player then argues that their characters would be aware of how the world works, so they would have reasonably talked about it beforehand. "I'm going to search this room for clues, can I get some help from the big guy?" Then they quickly grow tired of asking all the time, so they handwave it. That's how you get tables that just add 1d4 to every roll. Then it's not even magical anymore, it's just an overpowered bonus to everything because someone took the right cantrip at level 1.
Other tables yell it out and argue every time whether it should apply here or not. They might do it politely, but there is definitely some pressure put on the DM with light begging. At least one very popular live stream does this...
Ideally, everyone has the conversation once before playing and they are all in the same page. It just sounds like that's pretty rare. So the spell definitely has to change. The only option I can think of to keep it is to make it target only the caster. At least then they are responsible for thinking about all of the restrictions mentioned. And the DM can easily get that one player on board with when it is, and is not, reasonable.
Really, a lot of this comes down to applying the model to the wrong spell. Resistance would be excellent with this reaction-based model, and frankly I might homebrew that version for our own games. I think it would be particularly interesting with the caveat that it cannot target the caster, so the cleric doesn't get to boost their own saves, but frankly if the dingdong can get a +5 to all saves just by existing, the cleric could get a +1d4 to one save per reaction if it can cast without breaking the game. And when the whole party gets firebombed by a breath weapon, the cleric gets to decide who gets to try and squeak a success because that one cleric can only try and save one person. I think Resistance could be a lot of fun with this sort of build.
But Guidance? Not gonna lie - I think Guidance just flat-out needs to go. A flat boost to checks is too much for a cantrip for tables that aren't capable of exercising restraint, and "restraint" is not a trait the average D&D player is known for. Give players a button labeled "This will help you make checks, but over the long run it'll make your game worse and sap your DM's willingness to run the thing", and the average player will never not press that button. After all, nailing a check is super important right now, and all that other stuff is Future Them's Problem - plus why is nailing checks bad, right??????
Yeah. I think the spell's core functionality needs to change. To what, I have no idea, but I can't readily conceive of a model for Guidance that both fits the essential nature of a cantrip and alleviates Terrible Guidance Spam issues. And if the current 1DD playtest is the best Wizards can do, I'd rather have an entirely new cantrip under the same name than try and retain the boost to checks.
Please do not contact or message me.
I don't think we can have it all. Best option imo is to just make it a reaction 1st level spell and boost the effect to have a bigger die, maybe even left it be upcasted. Handles the spam issue by tying it to spell slots.
It's a tight spot also because if Guidance has to go for being a poorly-designed cantrip (or get bumped up to level 1), where do clerics go for utility? After Thaumaturgy (itself very limited compared to Prestidigitation or Druidcraft), there's not much there. Druids at least get some elemental cantrips, but clerics are left with the likes of Light (great job, you saved us a torch). I think half the reason for its popularity is that it's one of the few useful non-combat cantrips clerics get, which is why I think a nerfed version would still get taken, people would just forget to use it or second-guess each limited use.