If I am being completely honest, I think that they should drop the name Monk all together, but I don't know what would be a better name for the class. Monk is used to for too many beliefs and practices to really match what the class does.
Also, most of the people that come to mind when you think about martial arts aren't Monks. Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Ip Man, Jet Li and Chuck Norris for example are(were) all highly skilled, yet none of them are(were) Monks. Most of the people from history that are said to have developed martial arts were not monks. Many were generals and at least one was a physician. A lot of people think of ninjas and martial arts together, but they weren't monks either. Of course you do have the Shaolin Monks, but they are a very small minority when it comes to those that train in martial arts so it seems strange to have an entire class dedicated to them.
Martial Artist is also far too vague to work, though it is the term most commonly used when describing things that the D&D Monk does. I don't think it would go over well though.
I don't see why monk should be dropped as a name. Sure, its real-world connotation is religious, but that doesn't mean the fantasy connotation has to be as well for them to be called monks. If warlocks, wizards, and sorcerers (all of which mean the same thing in real life) can be completely separate things, I don't see why monks have to stick to their name so much. Just like clerics (real-world members of a clergy) don't technically have to worship a god, wizards (male spellcasters) can be female, bards don't have to play any music at all, and rangers... don't have to be from Middle Earth. The "we call classes because these are the names of the classes even if they are factually incorrect" mindset is a rule, not an exception.
My main reasoning is that people like Kamchatmonk get so hung up on the Shaolin Monk idea that no one is allowed to play any other style of martial artist in spite of the fact that there are a multitude of other martial artists out there to draw inspiration from.
Also for the whole "put it in a subclass" issue. Ok I want to make an armored ninja. So i can pick the subclass that gives me armor.... or i can pick shadow for the ninja stealth. Cant pick both.
How about raiden as my character concept. Well for him i can either pick the armor monk and get the armor.... or I can pick the subclass that gets me lightning powers.
Giving access to armor through subclass doesn't work. Because the fantasy of an armored monk is rarely subclassless and is highly varied concepts. Giving monk armor BASELINE doesn't hurt the unarmored monk fantasy any more than giving barbarian armor hurts the unarmored barbarian fantasy.
This is the type of Martial Arts I want. A blend of armed and unarmed combat complete with the armor to go with it. The current class does not allow it.
My main reasoning is that people like Kamchatmonk get so hung up on the Shaolin Monk idea that no one is allowed to play any other style of martial artist in spite of the fact that there are a multitude of other martial artists out there to draw inspiration from.
The monk already has ninja, doctor, hadouken cannon, Avatar, drunken master, ronin tropes... What else do you want the monk to be and why does your vision deserves to be in a base class rather than a subclass, like for the rest of us?
Also for the whole "put it in a subclass" issue. Ok I want to make an armored ninja. So i can pick the subclass that gives me armor.... or i can pick shadow for the ninja stealth. Cant pick both.
How about raiden as my character concept. Well for him i can either pick the armor monk and get the armor.... or I can pick the subclass that gets me lightning powers.
Giving access to armor through subclass doesn't work. Because the fantasy of an armored monk is rarely subclassless and is highly varied concepts. Giving monk armor BASELINE doesn't hurt the unarmored monk fantasy any more than giving barbarian armor hurts the unarmored barbarian fantasy.
Let's start with the fact that half of medium armors available gives you disadvantage on stealth checks. Your armored ninja will just clang all the way)) Not to mention that the best you can get that doesn't clang is breastplate, so you're stuck at 16 AC, and let's be realistic, you're gonna whine about it being underwhelming anyway. If you want Raiden as your character concept, I see no problem. He's armored in like 2 skins in MK11, maybe in MK10. Throughout the rest of character's history in MK universe, he wore clothes. Though if you really want a thunder god, there's tempest cleric. Way of the Four Elements offers pretty tame elemental power.
I just don't understand this weird obsession with armor that limits Dex AC bonus and hampers stealth for a class built around Dex.
This is the type of Martial Arts I want. A blend of armed and unarmed combat complete with the armor to go with it. The current class does not allow it.
Frankly... has it occured to you that not every Asian character is necessarily a monk? Fighters exist in that setting, too.
My main reasoning is that people like Kamchatmonk get so hung up on the Shaolin Monk idea that no one is allowed to play any other style of martial artist in spite of the fact that there are a multitude of other martial artists out there to draw inspiration from.
The monk already has ninja, doctor, hadouken cannon, Avatar, drunken master, ronin tropes... What else do you want the monk to be and why does your vision deserves to be in a base class rather than a subclass, like for the rest of us?
Also for the whole "put it in a subclass" issue. Ok I want to make an armored ninja. So i can pick the subclass that gives me armor.... or i can pick shadow for the ninja stealth. Cant pick both.
How about raiden as my character concept. Well for him i can either pick the armor monk and get the armor.... or I can pick the subclass that gets me lightning powers.
Giving access to armor through subclass doesn't work. Because the fantasy of an armored monk is rarely subclassless and is highly varied concepts. Giving monk armor BASELINE doesn't hurt the unarmored monk fantasy any more than giving barbarian armor hurts the unarmored barbarian fantasy.
Let's start with the fact that half of medium armors available gives you disadvantage on stealth checks. Your armored ninja will just clang all the way)) Not to mention that the best you can get that doesn't clang is breastplate, so you're stuck at 16 AC, and let's be realistic, you're gonna whine about it being underwhelming anyway. If you want Raiden as your character concept, I see no problem. He's armored in like 2 skins in MK11, maybe in MK10. Throughout the rest of character's history in MK universe, he wore clothes. Though if you really want a thunder god, there's tempest cleric. Way of the Four Elements offers pretty tame elemental power.
I just don't understand this weird obsession with armor that limits Dex AC bonus and hampers stealth for a class built around Dex.
Medium armor master gets rid of the disadvantage on stealth as does mythril armor. Also if medium armor is available so is light armor which neither limits dex bonus or hampers stealth. I dont understand the obsession with restricting people to fighters if they have a concept that also wears armor.
Say I want a FF monk, they wear light or medium armor and use unarmed strikes and abilities that use unarmed attacks. Currently not only could I not do this in Dnd, even if I multiclassed specifically to gain armor I wouldn't be able to do it because of how the martial arts feature works.
This is the type of Martial Arts I want. A blend of armed and unarmed combat complete with the armor to go with it. The current class does not allow it.
Frankly... has it occured to you that not every Asian character is necessarily a monk? Fighters exist in that setting, too.
Frankly, has it occurred to you that not every Martail Artist is a Shaolin Monk? Other Martial Artists exist too. Why limit unarmed combat to just your vision of what should be allowed?
Nor can the vast majority of Sorcerers and Warlocks. This is more of a "flaw" with armor than it is with Monks.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Medium armor master gets rid of the disadvantage on stealth as does mythril armor. Also if medium armor is available so is light armor which neither limits dex bonus or hampers stealth. I dont understand the obsession with restricting people to fighters if they have a concept that also wears armor.
So you're saying that your vision of a base class includes a feat to function? And I must add, Medium Armor Master feat in 1DnD does not remove disadvantage on stealth, at least in current revision. Not to mention that you need Wis anyway for your Ki save DC, so you'll have the protection of a studded leather from your 14 Wis right away.
Say I want a FF monk, they wear light or medium armor and use unarmed strikes and abilities that use unarmed attacks. Currently not only could I not do this in Dnd, even if I multiclassed specifically to gain armor I wouldn't be able to do it because of how the martial arts feature works.
Say I want sensei from Pathfinder. Say I want pandaren brewmaster from Warcraft. Say I want assassin from Diablo 2. A lot of things aren't in DnD. So what? The base goddamn class should be fixed first, and all the possible fantasies of every player ever may come later.
If the DM doesn't want it, you're not getting any of it, regardless of armor training. Spellcasters also somehow live without all that, I haven't seen wizards complain about lack of access to magic armor.
Okay, there has now been 4 days and as many pages of this low-effort argument that so far has added nothing to the conversation other than show what the next generation of grognardism is going to look like. Can we please get back to the whole point of this thread, which is to think up ways in which the Monk class can be improved?
Remove the Armor Restrictions from Monk Abilities to allow people to make use of the Lightly Armored Feat If a Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock can learn to wear armor, why not a Monk?
Grant a free Fighting Style
Allow them to Dash, Disengage or make single Unarmed Strike as a bonus action (Remove Step of the Wind)
Leave Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense and Stunning Strike pretty much as is.
Make Way of the Four Elements a caster in the same way Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster are so it doesn't use the same resource as Ki abilities.
Give Way of Shadows a less damaging version of Sneak Attack that can be used with Unarmed Strikes that also deliver Status Conditions a limited number of times per day. Kind of pressure point type thing.
If Shoving and Grappling are going to be easier to do now, Way of the Open Hand needs to some how improve upon that so that the Subclass excels in that area.
Invocation-style abilities that add to their prowess.
Once-per-turn abilities that can enhance unarmed strikes.
"Stance" abilities that can be activated and concentrated on for a duration (getting some mileage out of that Ki).
More instantaneous abilities to compete with Stunning Strike.
I'd be inclined to cannibalize certain abilities from some subclasses (Open Hand's Quivering Palm and Open Hand Technique, Drunken Master's Tipsy Sway and Intoxicated Frenzy, and Way of Shadow's Opportunist) and roll them into options for the base Monk, but that's probably a controversial opinion.
They will gain martial weapons. They will remove armor restrictions from martial arts and unarmored movement will become "monk movement" or something along those lines. I believe step of the wind will give better jumping and mobility and most of the rest of the main features will be unchanged.
Ki will be unlocked at level 1, Purity of body will move down to level 9. The 3rd monk tradition ability will move down to level 10, Tongue of Sun and Moon will move down to level 11 (possibly a new feature at 11 in general), Diamond Soul will move down to level 13, Monk tradition will move down to level 14, Timeless body will allow you to recover from 1 level of exhaustion on a short rest, level 17 will becomes empty body and level 18 becomes perfect self which will now provide 5 ki every time you roll initiative regardless if you are out of it or not.
Ki save DC determined by Dex or Con, rather than Wis. That addresses MAD.
Unarmored Defense AC = 10+Dex+[PB]. That addresses low AC.
Amount of ki = level+Dex (or Con). That addresses initial ki starvation.
Step of the Wind costs no ki. That addresses wasting ki on things that rogue does for free.
Once per round when you hit an enemy with an unarmed attack, you can knock the enemy prone, push them up to 5*PB ft, grapple, make enemy unable to use reaction, impose disadvantage on next attack, hamper movement speed, disarm and toss the item aside up to 30 ft, impose disadvantage on saving throw to maintain concentration, things like that. That gives monks stuff to do and offsets relatively low damage of Martial Arts.
Meditation: spend a ki point to gain advantage on all checks with chosen ability for 1 minute. That lets you use your ki outside combat productively.
Subclasses:
Open Hand: gets to use Martial Arts technique the second time in the same round when using Flurry of Blows.
Four Elements: you get all 16 spells, rather than measly 4.
Kensei: gets light and medium armor training, martial weapon proficiency. No limitations on which weapon can become kensei weapon. Gets to fully use Dex bonus in medium armor.
Had to add: you're missing the other side of the coin here, Yurei. Attunement. Really cool magic armor requires attunement slot. So do the magic weapons. Martials end up having to use their attunement slots for weapons and armor. Monk, on the other hand, is free to choose any wondrous items for their slots. Robes, capes, boots, gloves, helms, rings, necklaces, whatever. So, monk's unarmed and unarmored fighting style is quite liberating in a way.
Honestly... those aren't good magic items. Trading an attunement slot for most of those is a bad deal (except the Hunter's Coat and Sapphire Buckler but those are class-restricted or very hard to acquire). Here's a shortlist of magic items that are better than those suits of armour that a monk can use: Cloak of Many Fashions Staff of Adornment Horn of Silent Alarm Ring of Water Walking Ring of Swimming Cloak of Protection Belt of Dwarvenkind Cloak of Displacement Mantle of Spell Resistance Ring of Evasion Helm of Brilliance Staff of Striking Staff of Thunder and Lightning
Once per round when you hit an enemy with an unarmed attack, you can knock the enemy prone, push them up to 5*PB ft, grapple, make enemy unable to use reaction, impose disadvantage on next attack, hamper movement speed, disarm and toss the item aside up to 30 ft, impose disadvantage on saving throw to maintain concentration, things like that. That gives monks stuff to do and offsets relatively low damage of Martial Arts.
The problem there is that Stunning Strike is just better than any other condition that could be imposed.
My main reasoning is that people like Kamchatmonk get so hung up on the Shaolin Monk idea that no one is allowed to play any other style of martial artist in spite of the fact that there are a multitude of other martial artists out there to draw inspiration from.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Also for the whole "put it in a subclass" issue. Ok I want to make an armored ninja. So i can pick the subclass that gives me armor.... or i can pick shadow for the ninja stealth. Cant pick both.
How about raiden as my character concept. Well for him i can either pick the armor monk and get the armor.... or I can pick the subclass that gets me lightning powers.
Giving access to armor through subclass doesn't work. Because the fantasy of an armored monk is rarely subclassless and is highly varied concepts. Giving monk armor BASELINE doesn't hurt the unarmored monk fantasy any more than giving barbarian armor hurts the unarmored barbarian fantasy.
This is the type of Martial Arts I want. A blend of armed and unarmed combat complete with the armor to go with it. The current class does not allow it.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The monk already has ninja, doctor, hadouken cannon, Avatar, drunken master, ronin tropes... What else do you want the monk to be and why does your vision deserves to be in a base class rather than a subclass, like for the rest of us?
Let's start with the fact that half of medium armors available gives you disadvantage on stealth checks. Your armored ninja will just clang all the way)) Not to mention that the best you can get that doesn't clang is breastplate, so you're stuck at 16 AC, and let's be realistic, you're gonna whine about it being underwhelming anyway. If you want Raiden as your character concept, I see no problem. He's armored in like 2 skins in MK11, maybe in MK10. Throughout the rest of character's history in MK universe, he wore clothes. Though if you really want a thunder god, there's tempest cleric. Way of the Four Elements offers pretty tame elemental power.
I just don't understand this weird obsession with armor that limits Dex AC bonus and hampers stealth for a class built around Dex.
Frankly... has it occured to you that not every Asian character is necessarily a monk? Fighters exist in that setting, too.
Medium armor master gets rid of the disadvantage on stealth as does mythril armor. Also if medium armor is available so is light armor which neither limits dex bonus or hampers stealth. I dont understand the obsession with restricting people to fighters if they have a concept that also wears armor.
Say I want a FF monk, they wear light or medium armor and use unarmed strikes and abilities that use unarmed attacks. Currently not only could I not do this in Dnd, even if I multiclassed specifically to gain armor I wouldn't be able to do it because of how the martial arts feature works.
Frankly, has it occurred to you that not every Martail Artist is a Shaolin Monk? Other Martial Artists exist too. Why limit unarmed combat to just your vision of what should be allowed?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You know what Unarmored Defense can't do?
Change its appearance with a single magic word.
Give me a myriad of benefits against dragons and dragonkin.
Let me deal extra damage to wounded foes when I need to burn them down.
Save me from drowning.
Become a literally bronze-skinned warrior adonis.
Hunt aberrations, resist their corruption, and rebuke them when they strike me.
And so many other things more.
Please do not contact or message me.
Nor can the vast majority of Sorcerers and Warlocks. This is more of a "flaw" with armor than it is with Monks.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
So you're saying that your vision of a base class includes a feat to function? And I must add, Medium Armor Master feat in 1DnD does not remove disadvantage on stealth, at least in current revision. Not to mention that you need Wis anyway for your Ki save DC, so you'll have the protection of a studded leather from your 14 Wis right away.
Say I want sensei from Pathfinder. Say I want pandaren brewmaster from Warcraft. Say I want assassin from Diablo 2. A lot of things aren't in DnD. So what? The base goddamn class should be fixed first, and all the possible fantasies of every player ever may come later.
If the DM doesn't want it, you're not getting any of it, regardless of armor training. Spellcasters also somehow live without all that, I haven't seen wizards complain about lack of access to magic armor.
The main idea of the monk is that you can play as Bruce Lee in D&D. Inside the lore of the game it's more like using your body as a weapon.
Monks wearing armor makes not much sense.
Okay, there has now been 4 days and as many pages of this low-effort argument that so far has added nothing to the conversation other than show what the next generation of grognardism is going to look like. Can we please get back to the whole point of this thread, which is to think up ways in which the Monk class can be improved?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I'd personally like to see:
I'd be inclined to cannibalize certain abilities from some subclasses (Open Hand's Quivering Palm and Open Hand Technique, Drunken Master's Tipsy Sway and Intoxicated Frenzy, and Way of Shadow's Opportunist) and roll them into options for the base Monk, but that's probably a controversial opinion.
I am just going to type what I think will change.
They will gain martial weapons. They will remove armor restrictions from martial arts and unarmored movement will become "monk movement" or something along those lines.
I believe step of the wind will give better jumping and mobility and most of the rest of the main features will be unchanged.
Ki will be unlocked at level 1, Purity of body will move down to level 9. The 3rd monk tradition ability will move down to level 10, Tongue of Sun and Moon will move down to level 11 (possibly a new feature at 11 in general), Diamond Soul will move down to level 13, Monk tradition will move down to level 14, Timeless body will allow you to recover from 1 level of exhaustion on a short rest, level 17 will becomes empty body and level 18 becomes perfect self which will now provide 5 ki every time you roll initiative regardless if you are out of it or not.
What I'd like to see:
Subclasses:
Had to add: you're missing the other side of the coin here, Yurei. Attunement. Really cool magic armor requires attunement slot. So do the magic weapons. Martials end up having to use their attunement slots for weapons and armor. Monk, on the other hand, is free to choose any wondrous items for their slots. Robes, capes, boots, gloves, helms, rings, necklaces, whatever. So, monk's unarmed and unarmored fighting style is quite liberating in a way.
Honestly... those aren't good magic items. Trading an attunement slot for most of those is a bad deal (except the Hunter's Coat and Sapphire Buckler but those are class-restricted or very hard to acquire). Here's a shortlist of magic items that are better than those suits of armour that a monk can use:
Cloak of Many Fashions
Staff of Adornment
Horn of Silent Alarm
Ring of Water Walking
Ring of Swimming
Cloak of Protection
Belt of Dwarvenkind
Cloak of Displacement
Mantle of Spell Resistance
Ring of Evasion
Helm of Brilliance
Staff of Striking
Staff of Thunder and Lightning
The problem there is that Stunning Strike is just better than any other condition that could be imposed.
As some have mentioned d10 hit die. Also:
Open hand technique made part of base monk FoB or unarmed strikes (depending on what they do with FoB) Give WoOH something else to replace it
FoB, on a critical hit, you steal vital energy from target regaining 1 Ki
Step of the Wind free. Patient defense free PB/long rest, Ki point cost afterwards.
A meditative ability, as an action regain PB in Ki points once per long rest. Or a Second Wind version for Ki
Unarmed Strikes start at D6 and scale up from there.
Martial weapon proficiencies, no heavy, special, two handed properties Kensei can get Heavy or Two handed property weapons
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?