Once per round when you hit an enemy with an unarmed attack, you can knock the enemy prone, push them up to 5*PB ft, grapple, make enemy unable to use reaction, impose disadvantage on next attack, hamper movement speed, disarm and toss the item aside up to 30 ft, impose disadvantage on saving throw to maintain concentration, things like that. That gives monks stuff to do and offsets relatively low damage of Martial Arts.
The problem there is that Stunning Strike is just better than any other condition that could be imposed.
Some have suggested in other threads make Stunning Strike a scaling ability so at level 5 it isn’t quite as powerful and scales to the stunned condition later. Because it can be a Ki point trap at the level you get it, and may be a cause for the relatively low power of the monk to begin with. It’s a powerful ability so other abilities are weaker to compensate. Just a theory though.
It's also why Open Hand Technique and similar abilities do not and should not cost ki. Not everything the class does needs to come out of its ki wallet.
I know this is very likely a pipe dream, but I unironically really hope that WotC removes ki entirely. Rogue can already do Step of the Wind for free. With the new rules for light weapons, they could swap the Martial Arts attack for "you treat unarmed strikes as light weapons" and then have Flurry of Blows make one attack as a bonus action; I've done the maths for that, monks do start out a little stronger but as soon as Extra Attack for the other classes comes around they start to catch up (1d6 + Dex three times is about equal to 2d6 + Str twice [edit: its specifically 15.15 DPR versus 15.00 DPR respectively). Deflect Missiles just should absolutely not cost ki to use.
Patient Defence is tricky to balance, because dodging as a bonus action can be really powerful (ironically its much more useful for any other class to multiclass dip into than for the monk, since their AC and HP are quite low and monks have to rely on bonus actions for damage) - maybe make them take it as an action but give them, like, resistance to weapon damage while dodging? Not sure about this one yet. Stunning Strike just give them a number of uses per short or long rest. Diamond Soul will likely be brought down to 13th level, since the subclass feature is probably gonna move to 14th, and idk if it needs the ability to reroll saves on top of proficiency in all saving throws. Empty Body can be made a resource too?
The core issue with monks is that they don't get enough ki points to do cool things for an entire combat until way too late in the game, and even then there's two features you're ever going to spend ki on - Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike - and Stunning Strike isn't even that good! In all my time DMing for monks, the only thing I've seen Stunning Strike be used for past 10th level is to burn legendary resistances so that the casters can do their magic, which is helpful but not really that fun unless you dedicate yourself to being a setup character for other characters' payoff. Giving monks more ki points would help early levels, but as soon as you hit 5th level the class just returns to being Flurry of Blows/Stunning Strike spam; I think that making them work of different uses per day would help that a lot, because then there's incentive for them to do things other than just Stunning Strike over and over.
On top of that, there are plenty of martial arts that have no thematic or historic link to a mythical energy like ki. Capoeira, boxing, wrestling, krav maga; there are lots of different styles of martial arts, but the only "martial artist" the monk's flavour really fits is the Shaolin Monk - unarmoured, mystical, at balance with nature. If I could completely overhaul the class, I would give it much more martial arts agnostic flavour, and then each subclass could focus on a specific style of martial arts: one for the shaolin monks, with ki points and whatnot; one for weapons wielders, like the kensei monk; one for the brawlers and boxers; one for the flamboyant wrestlers; etc etc.
Once per round when you hit an enemy with an unarmed attack, you can knock the enemy prone, push them up to 5*PB ft, grapple, make enemy unable to use reaction, impose disadvantage on next attack, hamper movement speed, disarm and toss the item aside up to 30 ft, impose disadvantage on saving throw to maintain concentration, things like that. That gives monks stuff to do and offsets relatively low damage of Martial Arts.
The problem there is that Stunning Strike is just better than any other condition that could be imposed.
But it costs ki. These should not. Once per round is enough of a limitation.
It's also why Open Hand Technique and similar abilities do not and should not cost ki. Not everything the class does needs to come out of its ki wallet.
Technically, OHT does not cost ki, but it's an upgrade to Flurry of Blows, so... it's pretty limited in practice. It ends when ki ends.
And technically Deflect Missiles does not cost KI either, only to throw them back. It's a very cool ability if your DM ever thinks about using ranged monsters. And it's super thematic. I would love to see it applied to melee attacks too, maybe at a higher level if needed. It already costs a Reaction. So it's only once per turn no matter what.
The thing about Monks is that they're a really good class... if you play the game the way it was designed. Almost everyone's problems with them come from the fact that the game has evolved at different tables to something other than the way it is presented by the designers. I say this as someone who runs a 5e game right now, pretty much completely by the book, with a Monk player in it.
A Monk has plenty of Ki... if you use Short Rests the way they are intended. Deflect Missiles is an awesome ability... if you fight monsters that use ranged weapons. Patient Defense is amazing. Most people would consider a bonus action Dodge to be game changing in any other context. It is meant to make up for the Monk's lower AC in an interesting and thematic way. Just like Deflect Missiles, and Evasion... but so many players seem to think that damage is better than defense, and they save their Ki for Stunning Strike. Most of their later abilities are incredible... if your game cares about exploration and survival at all.
I love Monks. The only change I made for my player was starting with 1d6 damage on the Martial Arts die. So he could punch rather than use a staff at level 1. I run games where short rests aren't punished. Room for them is built into the adventure. I run fights with intersting terrain and a variety of monsters to play off of. My player's Monk has run circles around enemies, saved lives with Slowfall and Step of the Wind, and stunned bosses at critical moments. The slight damage increase was all he needed to keep up with the other characters. He plays a vital role in the party. In battle, exploration, and social settings.
I accept the fact that not everyone plays that kind of game. WotC needs to accept it too and evolve to meet the players. They need to make rules that work for every kind of game. Monks have become a joke class, always beat up for being weak. So much so that it probably scares players away from even trying them for themselves and seeing if it's true.
I'm okay with making improvements to Monks. There have been many good suggestions in this thread. I think the 1DnD unarmed strike show a path forward. If Monks can use their Dexterity to grapple, and get a free attack with their unarmed strikes the way light weapons do, then they are already in a great place. I'm even okay with Flurry of Blows and Step of the Wind being free bonus actions. I'd like to see a melee variant of Deflect Missiles. Those free up a lot of Ki for stronger things.
I just think we need to make sure we aren't trying to fix things that aren't actually broken. Monks don't have to keep up with Paladin AC and damage, or Wizard utility. They need to be their own thing.
It's also why Open Hand Technique and similar abilities do not and should not cost ki. Not everything the class does needs to come out of its ki wallet.
If they make unarmed attacks equivalent to the Light Weapon Property of the UA so you can make a second attack as part of the Attack action, and FoB become an additional attack as a bonus action, I think it shouldn't cost ki. And maybe OHT abilities just become options for Unarmed attacks for monks, just like grappling is tied to Unarmed strikes. And an option to regain ki (whether it's a Second Wind type ability, or regain a Ki on a crit, or some other method of Ki replenishment other than short resting) would help mitigate some of the Ki issues of the monk.
I doubt they, WotC, will get rid of Ki on the monk. But I could see them implementing the PB/Long Rest mechanic they are fond of, for some abilities, with Ki point cost to use it afterward. But there are definitely abilities now that shouldn't cost Ki.
I would like to see monks with one primary stat, and that possibly WIS. Base the Ki DC off of that. Then players are free to build STR or DEX based monks as they see fit. Monks do not need to put 15 in DEX, WIS, and CON (a 14 would probably do), and dump the other three. But the first two are important in 5E for monks. If fighters can be STR or DEX based, then monks should be able to as well. I don't expect monks to focus on CON as much as a fighter, they should have abilities to increase survivability so CON isn't as important. Like a Deflect missiles version for melee attacks or an Uncanny Dodge-like ability.
I totally disagree, ki is and should be the central mechanic of Monk, and to be totally honest it isn't that limiting if your party SRs after each combat. Supplying more ki (or taking away ki costs) will just further unbalance Monk so they are even more powerful at low levels (they are already one of the more powerful classes at low levels) and have them scale even worse than they do now. Current Monk scaling is all about getting more ki to use abilities every turn then two abilities every turn. I'd much much rather see Monks get an easy SR mechanic - e.g. meditate for 10 minutes to get a SR so that they are entering every combat with full ki.
I totally disagree, ki is and should be the central mechanic of Monk, and to be totally honest it isn't that limiting if your party SRs after each combat. Supplying more ki (or taking away ki costs) will just further unbalance Monk so they are even more powerful at low levels (they are already one of the more powerful classes at low levels) and have them scale even worse than they do now. Current Monk scaling is all about getting more ki to use abilities every turn then two abilities every turn. I'd much much rather see Monks get an easy SR mechanic - e.g. meditate for 10 minutes to get a SR so that they are entering every combat with full ki.
And the bolded is the problem. It seems, from what I've heard which could be wrong, that many tables do not use SR as often as the designers had intended. I know my DM does not allow us to SR after each fight. And, honestly, I don't want to either. I would be completely fine if 1D&D changed the rules where you get 2 SR per Long Rest.
I don't have a problem with Ki, as it is now. I do believe that there are monk features that should not use Ki (Step of the Wind, Deflect Missiles return attack) or features that could have a limited use for free with Ki point cost afterwards (stunning strike, Patient Defense). And features I think could be added to maximize the Ki pool (Ki replenishing feature, regain Ki on a crit, etc).
Monks get Ki at the same rate as Sorcerers. Yet Sorcerers have spell slots as an additional resource that they use. I don't believe many Sorcerer subclasses use Sorcery points to fuel their subclass features or to the extent that monk subclasses use Ki to fuel their subclass features (I'm no expert on Sorcerers so I'm sure there are some subclass features that do use SP at higher rates than others). So where Sorcerers have their spell slots to cast spells, SP to modify those spells or to create more spell slots, and some features that use SP, monks have core class features and subclass features that use Ki with no other resource (like spell slots) to share the burden.
I totally disagree, ki is and should be the central mechanic of Monk, and to be totally honest it isn't that limiting if your party SRs after each combat. Supplying more ki (or taking away ki costs) will just further unbalance Monk so they are even more powerful at low levels (they are already one of the more powerful classes at low levels) and have them scale even worse than they do now. Current Monk scaling is all about getting more ki to use abilities every turn then two abilities every turn. I'd much much rather see Monks get an easy SR mechanic - e.g. meditate for 10 minutes to get a SR so that they are entering every combat with full ki.
And the bolded is the problem. It seems, from what I've heard which could be wrong, that many tables do not use SR as often as the designers had intended. I know my DM does not allow us to SR after each fight. And, honestly, I don't want to either. I would be completely fine if 1D&D changed the rules where you get 2 SR per Long Rest.
I don't have a problem with Ki, as it is now. I do believe that there are monk features that should not use Ki (Step of the Wind, Deflect Missiles return attack) or features that could have a limited use for free with Ki point cost afterwards (stunning strike, Patient Defense). And features I think could be added to maximize the Ki pool (Ki replenishing feature, regain Ki on a crit, etc).
Monks get Ki at the same rate as Sorcerers. Yet Sorcerers have spell slots as an additional resource that they use. I don't believe many Sorcerer subclasses use Sorcery points to fuel their subclass features or to the extent that monk subclasses use Ki to fuel their subclass features (I'm no expert on Sorcerers so I'm sure there are some subclass features that do use SP at higher rates than others). So where Sorcerers have their spell slots to cast spells, SP to modify those spells or to create more spell slots, and some features that use SP, monks have core class features and subclass features that use Ki with no other resource (like spell slots) to share the burden.
Right. It's the rest system. Monks get their ki back on a short rest, and Sorcerers get their points on a long. Monks actually have 3 times the points as Sorcerers.
The game is designed for an average of two Short Rests a day. Which is further intended as a Short Rest every 2 encounters, then a Long Rest, because it assumes a 6 encounter day (and not all have to be combat.)
So, if you're playing that way, the Monk essentially has 3 times the ki as the chart implies. If they tripled the chart and made it recover on a Long Rest, I bet there wouldn't be nearly as many people thinking it wasn't enough. Even though it's the same thing.
People just play the game differently at a lot of tables. Until they change the way they play, or WotC changes the way the game works, no short rest mechanic is ever going to please everyone. I personally think short rests are fine. But there's enough people who want a different kind of game that it really needs to change. It would allow everyone to enjoy a game at their own pace if WotC fixed rests this time around.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
Nice, I was just making a thread on Short Rests that touched on this exactly.
I would like to see monks with one primary stat, and that possibly WIS. Base the Ki DC off of that. Then players are free to build STR or DEX based monks as they see fit. Monks do not need to put 15 in DEX, WIS, and CON (a 14 would probably do), and dump the other three. But the first two are important in 5E for monks. If fighters can be STR or DEX based, then monks should be able to as well. I don't expect monks to focus on CON as much as a fighter, they should have abilities to increase survivability so CON isn't as important. Like a Deflect missiles version for melee attacks or an Uncanny Dodge-like ability.
Wis is the root of monks' MAD. It's a martial class naturally built around Dex - a stat that boosts your offense and defense at the same time. I don't think there's a point in making a Str monk. Where would they get AC from? Whereas barbarian is a class of pure Str, monk is pure Dex, while fighter is in the middle. And all of them need Con to stay alive at the frontline. It's a warrior thing. And also a thing for the class that is about training the body to the pinnacle of its physical capabilities.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
A sorcerer without sorcery points is still a spellcaster with all their power and utility, as metamagic and spell slots are separate. But monk without ki is basically a fighter, but weaker.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
A sorcerer without sorcery points is still a spellcaster with all their power and utility, as metamagic and spell slots are separate. But monk without ki is basically a fighter, but weaker.
A sorcerer without SP is basically a wizard but weaker - they have far fewer spells known and no ritual casting so very little utility compared to a wizard.
A sorcerer without SP is basically a wizard but weaker - they have far fewer spells known and no ritual casting so very little utility compared to a wizard.
As if metamagic could help it in the first place. But a fireball to the face is still fireball to the face. It may not be quickened or empowered, but for someone who's being blown to bits, a sorcerer's fireball is as good as wizard's. Meanwhile, monk's scrawny d8 HP, 16-17 AC, and d6-d8 martial arts damage don't really stand up to other martials' power.
I totally disagree, ki is and should be the central mechanic of Monk, and to be totally honest it isn't that limiting if your party SRs after each combat. Supplying more ki (or taking away ki costs) will just further unbalance Monk so they are even more powerful at low levels (they are already one of the more powerful classes at low levels) and have them scale even worse than they do now. Current Monk scaling is all about getting more ki to use abilities every turn then two abilities every turn. I'd much much rather see Monks get an easy SR mechanic - e.g. meditate for 10 minutes to get a SR so that they are entering every combat with full ki.
And the bolded is the problem. It seems, from what I've heard which could be wrong, that many tables do not use SR as often as the designers had intended. I know my DM does not allow us to SR after each fight. And, honestly, I don't want to either. I would be completely fine if 1D&D changed the rules where you get 2 SR per Long Rest.
I don't have a problem with Ki, as it is now. I do believe that there are monk features that should not use Ki (Step of the Wind, Deflect Missiles return attack) or features that could have a limited use for free with Ki point cost afterwards (stunning strike, Patient Defense). And features I think could be added to maximize the Ki pool (Ki replenishing feature, regain Ki on a crit, etc).
Monks get Ki at the same rate as Sorcerers. Yet Sorcerers have spell slots as an additional resource that they use. I don't believe many Sorcerer subclasses use Sorcery points to fuel their subclass features or to the extent that monk subclasses use Ki to fuel their subclass features (I'm no expert on Sorcerers so I'm sure there are some subclass features that do use SP at higher rates than others). So where Sorcerers have their spell slots to cast spells, SP to modify those spells or to create more spell slots, and some features that use SP, monks have core class features and subclass features that use Ki with no other resource (like spell slots) to share the burden.
Right. It's the rest system. Monks get their ki back on a short rest, and Sorcerers get their points on a long. Monks actually have 3 times the points as Sorcerers.
The game is designed for an average of two Short Rests a day. Which is further intended as a Short Rest every 2 encounters, then a Long Rest, because it assumes a 6 encounter day (and not all have to be combat.)
So, if you're playing that way, the Monk essentially has 3 times the ki as the chart implies. If they tripled the chart and made it recover on a Long Rest, I bet there wouldn't be nearly as many people thinking it wasn't enough. Even though it's the same thing.
People just play the game differently at a lot of tables. Until they change the way they play, or WotC changes the way the game works, no short rest mechanic is ever going to please everyone. I personally think short rests are fine. But there's enough people who want a different kind of game that it really needs to change. It would allow everyone to enjoy a game at their own pace if WotC fixed rests this time around.
I hadn't considered the SR/LR difference between monk and sorcerer but see kamchatmonk's reply #138.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
I don't think Stunning Strike should be free. I have made suggestions about the ability to ease the Ki point burden (PB/LR free, Ki cost after. Or scaling Stunning Strike so it is weaker at level 5 and then does stun condition at a later level). I've even suggested Ki-less monk or Ki mainly for Subclass features only. But I'm fine with how Ki stands now. Just offering up suggestions for 1D&D monk (the purpose of this thread).
I would like to see monks with one primary stat, and that possibly WIS. Base the Ki DC off of that. Then players are free to build STR or DEX based monks as they see fit. Monks do not need to put 15 in DEX, WIS, and CON (a 14 would probably do), and dump the other three. But the first two are important in 5E for monks. If fighters can be STR or DEX based, then monks should be able to as well. I don't expect monks to focus on CON as much as a fighter, they should have abilities to increase survivability so CON isn't as important. Like a Deflect missiles version for melee attacks or an Uncanny Dodge-like ability.
Wis is the root of monks' MAD. It's a martial class naturally built around Dex - a stat that boosts your offense and defense at the same time. I don't think there's a point in making a Str monk. Where would they get AC from? Whereas barbarian is a class of pure Str, monk is pure Dex, while fighter is in the middle. And all of them need Con to stay alive at the frontline. It's a warrior thing. And also a thing for the class that is about training the body to the pinnacle of its physical capabilities.
I did say "possibly WIS" but I see your point. Do you think the monks Ki DC should be based on Dex instead? I don't necessarily want to see WIS as a dump stat for monks either. Yes, monks need CON as well, but I don't think they need it as much based on a skirmishing play style they are now. Or if they gained a feature to help mitigate incoming damage.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
A sorcerer without sorcery points is still a spellcaster with all their power and utility, as metamagic and spell slots are separate. But monk without ki is basically a fighter, but weaker.
A sorcerer without SP is basically a wizard but weaker - they have far fewer spells known and no ritual casting so very little utility compared to a wizard.
You are correct that sorcerers have fewer spells known, but their spells are just as powerful as the wizards without SP. Even with SP, they still lack the utility of wizards, so not a great argument there. And if the UA change stands, all spellcasters will be ritual casters as any spell with the ritual tag can be cast that way.
On the out of combat front, does anyone think that the monk should be the “skill monkey” of the warrior group? That is, if 1D&D gets rid of monks MADness. Edit: basically give them 3 or 4 skills at level 1 with maybe an option to gain more later (possibly as part of their subclass)? I don’t think they should get expertise though, leave that to the Expert group.
On the out of combat front, does anyone think that the monk should be the “skill monkey” of the warrior group? That is, if 1D&D gets rid of monks MADness. Edit: basically give them 3 or 4 skills at level 1 with maybe an option to gain more later (possibly as part of their subclass)? I don’t think they should get expertise though, leave that to the Expert group.
I do think Monk should get a few more skills like Barbarian did in Tasha's. I'd also like to see some subclasses getting things like the Samurai and Fey Wanderer where they can add their Wisdom to other skill checks or some way to use Ki more often outside of combat : Fulfilling more the "wise sage" archetype rather than the "punch harder" archetype.
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Some have suggested in other threads make Stunning Strike a scaling ability so at level 5 it isn’t quite as powerful and scales to the stunned condition later. Because it can be a Ki point trap at the level you get it, and may be a cause for the relatively low power of the monk to begin with. It’s a powerful ability so other abilities are weaker to compensate. Just a theory though.
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It's also why Open Hand Technique and similar abilities do not and should not cost ki. Not everything the class does needs to come out of its ki wallet.
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I know this is very likely a pipe dream, but I unironically really hope that WotC removes ki entirely. Rogue can already do Step of the Wind for free. With the new rules for light weapons, they could swap the Martial Arts attack for "you treat unarmed strikes as light weapons" and then have Flurry of Blows make one attack as a bonus action; I've done the maths for that, monks do start out a little stronger but as soon as Extra Attack for the other classes comes around they start to catch up (1d6 + Dex three times is about equal to 2d6 + Str twice [edit: its specifically 15.15 DPR versus 15.00 DPR respectively). Deflect Missiles just should absolutely not cost ki to use.
Patient Defence is tricky to balance, because dodging as a bonus action can be really powerful (ironically its much more useful for any other class to multiclass dip into than for the monk, since their AC and HP are quite low and monks have to rely on bonus actions for damage) - maybe make them take it as an action but give them, like, resistance to weapon damage while dodging? Not sure about this one yet. Stunning Strike just give them a number of uses per short or long rest. Diamond Soul will likely be brought down to 13th level, since the subclass feature is probably gonna move to 14th, and idk if it needs the ability to reroll saves on top of proficiency in all saving throws. Empty Body can be made a resource too?
The core issue with monks is that they don't get enough ki points to do cool things for an entire combat until way too late in the game, and even then there's two features you're ever going to spend ki on - Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike - and Stunning Strike isn't even that good! In all my time DMing for monks, the only thing I've seen Stunning Strike be used for past 10th level is to burn legendary resistances so that the casters can do their magic, which is helpful but not really that fun unless you dedicate yourself to being a setup character for other characters' payoff. Giving monks more ki points would help early levels, but as soon as you hit 5th level the class just returns to being Flurry of Blows/Stunning Strike spam; I think that making them work of different uses per day would help that a lot, because then there's incentive for them to do things other than just Stunning Strike over and over.
On top of that, there are plenty of martial arts that have no thematic or historic link to a mythical energy like ki. Capoeira, boxing, wrestling, krav maga; there are lots of different styles of martial arts, but the only "martial artist" the monk's flavour really fits is the Shaolin Monk - unarmoured, mystical, at balance with nature. If I could completely overhaul the class, I would give it much more martial arts agnostic flavour, and then each subclass could focus on a specific style of martial arts: one for the shaolin monks, with ki points and whatnot; one for weapons wielders, like the kensei monk; one for the brawlers and boxers; one for the flamboyant wrestlers; etc etc.
But it costs ki. These should not. Once per round is enough of a limitation.
Technically, OHT does not cost ki, but it's an upgrade to Flurry of Blows, so... it's pretty limited in practice. It ends when ki ends.
And technically Deflect Missiles does not cost KI either, only to throw them back. It's a very cool ability if your DM ever thinks about using ranged monsters. And it's super thematic. I would love to see it applied to melee attacks too, maybe at a higher level if needed. It already costs a Reaction. So it's only once per turn no matter what.
The thing about Monks is that they're a really good class... if you play the game the way it was designed. Almost everyone's problems with them come from the fact that the game has evolved at different tables to something other than the way it is presented by the designers. I say this as someone who runs a 5e game right now, pretty much completely by the book, with a Monk player in it.
A Monk has plenty of Ki... if you use Short Rests the way they are intended. Deflect Missiles is an awesome ability... if you fight monsters that use ranged weapons. Patient Defense is amazing. Most people would consider a bonus action Dodge to be game changing in any other context. It is meant to make up for the Monk's lower AC in an interesting and thematic way. Just like Deflect Missiles, and Evasion... but so many players seem to think that damage is better than defense, and they save their Ki for Stunning Strike. Most of their later abilities are incredible... if your game cares about exploration and survival at all.
I love Monks. The only change I made for my player was starting with 1d6 damage on the Martial Arts die. So he could punch rather than use a staff at level 1. I run games where short rests aren't punished. Room for them is built into the adventure. I run fights with intersting terrain and a variety of monsters to play off of. My player's Monk has run circles around enemies, saved lives with Slowfall and Step of the Wind, and stunned bosses at critical moments. The slight damage increase was all he needed to keep up with the other characters. He plays a vital role in the party. In battle, exploration, and social settings.
I accept the fact that not everyone plays that kind of game. WotC needs to accept it too and evolve to meet the players. They need to make rules that work for every kind of game. Monks have become a joke class, always beat up for being weak. So much so that it probably scares players away from even trying them for themselves and seeing if it's true.
I'm okay with making improvements to Monks. There have been many good suggestions in this thread. I think the 1DnD unarmed strike show a path forward. If Monks can use their Dexterity to grapple, and get a free attack with their unarmed strikes the way light weapons do, then they are already in a great place. I'm even okay with Flurry of Blows and Step of the Wind being free bonus actions. I'd like to see a melee variant of Deflect Missiles. Those free up a lot of Ki for stronger things.
I just think we need to make sure we aren't trying to fix things that aren't actually broken. Monks don't have to keep up with Paladin AC and damage, or Wizard utility. They need to be their own thing.
If they make unarmed attacks equivalent to the Light Weapon Property of the UA so you can make a second attack as part of the Attack action, and FoB become an additional attack as a bonus action, I think it shouldn't cost ki. And maybe OHT abilities just become options for Unarmed attacks for monks, just like grappling is tied to Unarmed strikes. And an option to regain ki (whether it's a Second Wind type ability, or regain a Ki on a crit, or some other method of Ki replenishment other than short resting) would help mitigate some of the Ki issues of the monk.
I doubt they, WotC, will get rid of Ki on the monk. But I could see them implementing the PB/Long Rest mechanic they are fond of, for some abilities, with Ki point cost to use it afterward. But there are definitely abilities now that shouldn't cost Ki.
I would like to see monks with one primary stat, and that possibly WIS. Base the Ki DC off of that. Then players are free to build STR or DEX based monks as they see fit. Monks do not need to put 15 in DEX, WIS, and CON (a 14 would probably do), and dump the other three. But the first two are important in 5E for monks. If fighters can be STR or DEX based, then monks should be able to as well. I don't expect monks to focus on CON as much as a fighter, they should have abilities to increase survivability so CON isn't as important. Like a Deflect missiles version for melee attacks or an Uncanny Dodge-like ability.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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I totally disagree, ki is and should be the central mechanic of Monk, and to be totally honest it isn't that limiting if your party SRs after each combat. Supplying more ki (or taking away ki costs) will just further unbalance Monk so they are even more powerful at low levels (they are already one of the more powerful classes at low levels) and have them scale even worse than they do now. Current Monk scaling is all about getting more ki to use abilities every turn then two abilities every turn. I'd much much rather see Monks get an easy SR mechanic - e.g. meditate for 10 minutes to get a SR so that they are entering every combat with full ki.
And the bolded is the problem. It seems, from what I've heard which could be wrong, that many tables do not use SR as often as the designers had intended. I know my DM does not allow us to SR after each fight. And, honestly, I don't want to either. I would be completely fine if 1D&D changed the rules where you get 2 SR per Long Rest.
I don't have a problem with Ki, as it is now. I do believe that there are monk features that should not use Ki (Step of the Wind, Deflect Missiles return attack) or features that could have a limited use for free with Ki point cost afterwards (stunning strike, Patient Defense). And features I think could be added to maximize the Ki pool (Ki replenishing feature, regain Ki on a crit, etc).
Monks get Ki at the same rate as Sorcerers. Yet Sorcerers have spell slots as an additional resource that they use. I don't believe many Sorcerer subclasses use Sorcery points to fuel their subclass features or to the extent that monk subclasses use Ki to fuel their subclass features (I'm no expert on Sorcerers so I'm sure there are some subclass features that do use SP at higher rates than others). So where Sorcerers have their spell slots to cast spells, SP to modify those spells or to create more spell slots, and some features that use SP, monks have core class features and subclass features that use Ki with no other resource (like spell slots) to share the burden.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Right. It's the rest system. Monks get their ki back on a short rest, and Sorcerers get their points on a long. Monks actually have 3 times the points as Sorcerers.
The game is designed for an average of two Short Rests a day. Which is further intended as a Short Rest every 2 encounters, then a Long Rest, because it assumes a 6 encounter day (and not all have to be combat.)
So, if you're playing that way, the Monk essentially has 3 times the ki as the chart implies. If they tripled the chart and made it recover on a Long Rest, I bet there wouldn't be nearly as many people thinking it wasn't enough. Even though it's the same thing.
People just play the game differently at a lot of tables. Until they change the way they play, or WotC changes the way the game works, no short rest mechanic is ever going to please everyone. I personally think short rests are fine. But there's enough people who want a different kind of game that it really needs to change. It would allow everyone to enjoy a game at their own pace if WotC fixed rests this time around.
But most monk features require only 1 ki, whereas many sorcerer ones require more than one, also sorcerers get SP back on a LR only, rather than SR for ki. Hence why IMO giving monks a quicker SR mechanic is better than all the clunky "fixes" with pbtplr and ki. The only monk ability that shouldn't cost ki is Step of the Wind. Free stunning strike would make monk incredibly nasty b/c stunning strike is SO powerful (the only people believe it isn't is because so many DMs cheat on the saves because they know a failed save to SS == BBEG is dead).
Though honestly I wouldn't mind if One D&D just made a SR cost only 10 minutes for everyone. Then while the wizard or other caster is off casting a ritual spell the martials can SR and be ready to go for the next combat.
Nice, I was just making a thread on Short Rests that touched on this exactly.
Wis is the root of monks' MAD. It's a martial class naturally built around Dex - a stat that boosts your offense and defense at the same time. I don't think there's a point in making a Str monk. Where would they get AC from? Whereas barbarian is a class of pure Str, monk is pure Dex, while fighter is in the middle. And all of them need Con to stay alive at the frontline. It's a warrior thing. And also a thing for the class that is about training the body to the pinnacle of its physical capabilities.
A sorcerer without sorcery points is still a spellcaster with all their power and utility, as metamagic and spell slots are separate. But monk without ki is basically a fighter, but weaker.
A sorcerer without SP is basically a wizard but weaker - they have far fewer spells known and no ritual casting so very little utility compared to a wizard.
As if metamagic could help it in the first place. But a fireball to the face is still fireball to the face. It may not be quickened or empowered, but for someone who's being blown to bits, a sorcerer's fireball is as good as wizard's. Meanwhile, monk's scrawny d8 HP, 16-17 AC, and d6-d8 martial arts damage don't really stand up to other martials' power.
I hadn't considered the SR/LR difference between monk and sorcerer but see kamchatmonk's reply #138.
I don't think Stunning Strike should be free. I have made suggestions about the ability to ease the Ki point burden (PB/LR free, Ki cost after. Or scaling Stunning Strike so it is weaker at level 5 and then does stun condition at a later level). I've even suggested Ki-less monk or Ki mainly for Subclass features only. But I'm fine with how Ki stands now. Just offering up suggestions for 1D&D monk (the purpose of this thread).
Your 10 minute SR idea is interesting.
I did say "possibly WIS" but I see your point. Do you think the monks Ki DC should be based on Dex instead? I don't necessarily want to see WIS as a dump stat for monks either. Yes, monks need CON as well, but I don't think they need it as much based on a skirmishing play style they are now. Or if they gained a feature to help mitigate incoming damage.
You are correct that sorcerers have fewer spells known, but their spells are just as powerful as the wizards without SP. Even with SP, they still lack the utility of wizards, so not a great argument there. And if the UA change stands, all spellcasters will be ritual casters as any spell with the ritual tag can be cast that way.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
On the out of combat front, does anyone think that the monk should be the “skill monkey” of the warrior group? That is, if 1D&D gets rid of monks MADness.
Edit: basically give them 3 or 4 skills at level 1 with maybe an option to gain more later (possibly as part of their subclass)? I don’t think they should get expertise though, leave that to the Expert group.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I do think Monk should get a few more skills like Barbarian did in Tasha's. I'd also like to see some subclasses getting things like the Samurai and Fey Wanderer where they can add their Wisdom to other skill checks or some way to use Ki more often outside of combat : Fulfilling more the "wise sage" archetype rather than the "punch harder" archetype.