On the out of combat front, does anyone think that the monk should be the “skill monkey” of the warrior group? That is, if 1D&D gets rid of monks MADness. Edit: basically give them 3 or 4 skills at level 1 with maybe an option to gain more later (possibly as part of their subclass)? I don’t think they should get expertise though, leave that to the Expert group.
I do think Monk should get a few more skills like Barbarian did in Tasha's. I'd also like to see some subclasses getting things like the Samurai and Fey Wanderer where they can add their Wisdom to other skill checks or some way to use Ki more often outside of combat : Fulfilling more the "wise sage" archetype rather than the "punch harder" archetype.
Maybe a Focused Aim version for skills/ability checks. When you fail an ability check you can spend 1-3 Ki and add 2 for each Ki point spent to the roll possibility turning the failure into a success. Could be useful in and out of combat.
I did say "possibly WIS" but I see your point. Do you think the monks Ki DC should be based on Dex instead? I don't necessarily want to see WIS as a dump stat for monks either. Yes, monks need CON as well, but I don't think they need it as much based on a skirmishing play style they are now. Or if they gained a feature to help mitigate incoming damage.
Every other class in the game except for paladins and rangers had their save DC defined by their main stat. Paladnis don't rely on their spell save DC, because most their spells are used to heal and buff, and smites works through melee attack hitting. Ranger has it a bit worse, but there's also enough healing, buffs and summons in primal spell list that don't factor in spellcasting ability at all. Barkskin, summon beast, locate spells are all pretty solid. Bottom line is, paladin and ranger aren't as MAD, it's possible to have low Cha/Wis and still be pretty good, have spells at their full efficiency. Some class features reward high Cha/Wis, but they feel like a bonus, rather than necessity.
Monks, however, are a different case. Your very AC depends on Wis, and you can't solve this problem with armor. And while you have some defensive options to invest your ki into like dodge bonus action, your options are limited, have little efficiency, and burn your ki quickly. Stunning strike requires high Wis to be effective, and it's a crucial feature of monk. In other words, monk does not have that option to go easy on the second stat like paladin and ranger. And they still need Con because they're melee.
Which is why I believe that monk needs to lose dependency on Wis altogether. AC should progress with PB, and save DC should be determined either by Dex (because it's the main stat and because martial arts), or by Con (because ki is the magic of the body so to speak).
On the out of combat front, does anyone think that the monk should be the “skill monkey” of the warrior group? That is, if 1D&D gets rid of monks MADness. Edit: basically give them 3 or 4 skills at level 1 with maybe an option to gain more later (possibly as part of their subclass)? I don’t think they should get expertise though, leave that to the Expert group.
I already provided one idea: spend 1 ki (or PB times per long rest) to meditate on an ability to gain advantage on checks with chosen ability for, say, 10 minutes. It's like artificer's Flash of Genius, but a bit different.
I did say "possibly WIS" but I see your point. Do you think the monks Ki DC should be based on Dex instead? I don't necessarily want to see WIS as a dump stat for monks either. Yes, monks need CON as well, but I don't think they need it as much based on a skirmishing play style they are now. Or if they gained a feature to help mitigate incoming damage.
Every other class in the game except for paladins and rangers had their save DC defined by their main stat. Paladnis don't rely on their spell save DC, because most their spells are used to heal and buff, and smites works through melee attack hitting. Ranger has it a bit worse, but there's also enough healing, buffs and summons in primal spell list that don't factor in spellcasting ability at all. Barkskin, summon beast, locate spells are all pretty solid. Bottom line is, paladin and ranger aren't as MAD, it's possible to have low Cha/Wis and still be pretty good, have spells at their full efficiency. Some class features reward high Cha/Wis, but they feel like a bonus, rather than necessity.
Monks, however, are a different case. Your very AC depends on Wis, and you can't solve this problem with armor. And while you have some defensive options to invest your ki into like dodge bonus action, your options are limited, have little efficiency, and burn your ki quickly. Stunning strike requires high Wis to be effective, and it's a crucial feature of monk. In other words, monk does not have that option to go easy on the second stat like paladin and ranger. And they still need Con because they're melee.
Which is why I believe that monk needs to lose dependency on Wis altogether. AC should progress with PB, and save DC should be determined either by Dex (because it's the main stat and because martial arts), or by Con (because ki is the magic of the body so to speak).
Why don't we instead look back at Quar1on's suggestion earlier in the thread to give monks the choice to swap Wisdom for Constitution for the HP bonus? Or, like I added, go even further and have them add both? It seems to me that really pretty much solves the ability score dilemma of monks in a much simpler manner than making the numerous changes that have been suggested. I think that Wisdom should be relevant to monks, and this certainly assures it will be while also essentially removing their dependency on Constitution. Ki abilities may also need to be tweaked and it certainly doesn't solve the short rest/long rest problem between classes (but that is not exclusive to monk).
Why don't we instead look back at Quar1on's suggestion earlier in the thread to give monks the choice to swap Wisdom for Constitution for the HP bonus? Or, like I added, go even further and have them add both? It seems to me that really pretty much solves the ability score dilemma of monks in a much simpler manner than making the numerous changes that have been suggested. I think that Wisdom should be relevant to monks, and this certainly assures it will be while also essentially removing their dependency on Constitution. Ki abilities may also need to be tweaked and it certainly doesn't solve the short rest/long rest problem between classes (but that is not exclusive to monk).
Why reinvent the bicycle when Dex and Con give monks all they need? I don't understand this fixation on Wis, especially since the reasoning behind hanging both AC and save DC on Wis are pretty much superficial. It's strange that an ascetic practitioner of martial arts that spends years honing his body to perfect state, a living weapon, would have low Con.
Why don't we instead look back at Quar1on's suggestion earlier in the thread to give monks the choice to swap Wisdom for Constitution for the HP bonus? Or, like I added, go even further and have them add both? It seems to me that really pretty much solves the ability score dilemma of monks in a much simpler manner than making the numerous changes that have been suggested. I think that Wisdom should be relevant to monks, and this certainly assures it will be while also essentially removing their dependency on Constitution. Ki abilities may also need to be tweaked and it certainly doesn't solve the short rest/long rest problem between classes (but that is not exclusive to monk).
Why reinvent the bicycle when Dex and Con give monks all they need? I don't understand this fixation on Wis, especially since the reasoning behind hanging both AC and save DC on Wis are pretty much superficial. It's strange that an ascetic practitioner of martial arts that spends years honing his body to perfect state, a living weapon, would have low Con.
Because of the "wise sage" archetype for Shaloin monks which is the basis of the class. It isn't a Jackie Chan / Chuck Norris class - Chuck Norris is more an Unarmed Barbarian, Jackie is a STR + minor DEX Fighter/Rogue with Tavern Brawler.
In concept it is: a martial artist who isn't stronger than the average person, just has better techniques and training. They avoid getting hit by reading their opponents and predicting how their opponent will strike in order to dodge or deflect the blow (Wis +Dex AC) and when they strike they hit weak spots of their target to disable them using the minimum force necessary (Dex based attacks + stunning strike). They are trained in monasteries focused on importance of skill mastery, self-control, and artistry (Artisan Tool Proficiency, Wisdom & Intelligence skill proficiencies).
On the out of combat front, does anyone think that the monk should be the “skill monkey” of the warrior group? That is, if 1D&D gets rid of monks MADness. Edit: basically give them 3 or 4 skills at level 1 with maybe an option to gain more later (possibly as part of their subclass)? I don’t think they should get expertise though, leave that to the Expert group.
I already provided one idea: spend 1 ki (or PB times per long rest) to meditate on an ability to gain advantage on checks with chosen ability for, say, 10 minutes. It's like artificer's Flash of Genius, but a bit different.
I think something we should note is monk is already stronger than they were and other martials are already weaker than they were with the current UA's. Unarmed strikes are already better and allow easier grappling and shoving for monk. Light weapons are better for monks. Fighting styles and tavern Brawler is good for monks as first level feats. Finally, sharpshooter, great weapon master and polearm master, which is really what pushed other martials stronger than monks, all got big nerfs.
Because of the "wise sage" archetype for Shaloin monks which is the basis of the class. It isn't a Jackie Chan / Chuck Norris class - Chuck Norris is more an Unarmed Barbarian, Jackie is a STR + minor DEX Fighter/Rogue with Tavern Brawler.
In concept it is: a martial artist who isn't stronger than the average person, just has better techniques and training. They avoid getting hit by reading their opponents and predicting how their opponent will strike in order to dodge or deflect the blow (Wis +Dex AC) and when they strike they hit weak spots of their target to disable them using the minimum force necessary (Dex based attacks + stunning strike). They are trained in monasteries focused on importance of skill mastery, self-control, and artistry (Artisan Tool Proficiency, Wisdom & Intelligence skill proficiencies).
Jackie Chan was never about Str, Bolo Yeung was. And actually, Jackie Chan starred in "Drunken Master", which is the iconic depiction of the drunken master archetype, as well as "Shaolin Chamber of Death". Then there's Liu Kang, Ip Man, Bruce Lee's characters. Of course, there is that image of a sage mentoring the protagonist, but this applies to any mentor type of character. Wizards are also supposed to be sages, but there they are being full Int.
Regardless, basing a class on two ability scores is an automatic failure unless the class has defensive/buff/utility spellcasting that works without relying spell save DC. Dex+Wis monk is the monk we have today, with all the same problems. Still having to ignore the feats and spend them all on ASI to race to 20/20 just to stay functional. I already described the easier solutions to this problem in this thread.
Because of the "wise sage" archetype for Shaloin monks which is the basis of the class. It isn't a Jackie Chan / Chuck Norris class - Chuck Norris is more an Unarmed Barbarian, Jackie is a STR + minor DEX Fighter/Rogue with Tavern Brawler.
In concept it is: a martial artist who isn't stronger than the average person, just has better techniques and training. They avoid getting hit by reading their opponents and predicting how their opponent will strike in order to dodge or deflect the blow (Wis +Dex AC) and when they strike they hit weak spots of their target to disable them using the minimum force necessary (Dex based attacks + stunning strike). They are trained in monasteries focused on importance of skill mastery, self-control, and artistry (Artisan Tool Proficiency, Wisdom & Intelligence skill proficiencies).
Jackie Chan was never about Str, Bolo Yeung was. And actually, Jackie Chan starred in "Drunken Master", which is the iconic depiction of the drunken master archetype, as well as "Shaolin Chamber of Death". Then there's Liu Kang, Ip Man, Bruce Lee's characters. Of course, there is that image of a sage mentoring the protagonist, but this applies to any mentor type of character. Wizards are also supposed to be sages, but there they are being full Int.
Regardless, basing a class on two ability scores is an automatic failure unless the class has defensive/buff/utility spellcasting that works without relying spell save DC. Dex+Wis monk is the monk we have today, with all the same problems. Still having to ignore the feats and spend them all on ASI to race to 20/20 just to stay functional. I already described the easier solutions to this problem in this thread.
There are so many amazing half-frats now, Monk can easily grab Fey Touched or Crusher without sacrificing anything. Plus Astral Monk is SAD, or pock up Shillelagh with Magic Initiate or a druid dip to be SAD. It's way easier to be a SAD monk than a SAD paladin.
Because of the "wise sage" archetype for Shaloin monks which is the basis of the class. It isn't a Jackie Chan / Chuck Norris class - Chuck Norris is more an Unarmed Barbarian, Jackie is a STR + minor DEX Fighter/Rogue with Tavern Brawler.
In concept it is: a martial artist who isn't stronger than the average person, just has better techniques and training. They avoid getting hit by reading their opponents and predicting how their opponent will strike in order to dodge or deflect the blow (Wis +Dex AC) and when they strike they hit weak spots of their target to disable them using the minimum force necessary (Dex based attacks + stunning strike). They are trained in monasteries focused on importance of skill mastery, self-control, and artistry (Artisan Tool Proficiency, Wisdom & Intelligence skill proficiencies).
Jackie Chan was never about Str, Bolo Yeung was. And actually, Jackie Chan starred in "Drunken Master", which is the iconic depiction of the drunken master archetype, as well as "Shaolin Chamber of Death". Then there's Liu Kang, Ip Man, Bruce Lee's characters. Of course, there is that image of a sage mentoring the protagonist, but this applies to any mentor type of character. Wizards are also supposed to be sages, but there they are being full Int.
Regardless, basing a class on two ability scores is an automatic failure unless the class has defensive/buff/utility spellcasting that works without relying spell save DC. Dex+Wis monk is the monk we have today, with all the same problems. Still having to ignore the feats and spend them all on ASI to race to 20/20 just to stay functional. I already described the easier solutions to this problem in this thread.
There are so many amazing half-frats now, Monk can easily grab Fey Touched or Crusher without sacrificing anything. Plus Astral Monk is SAD, or pock up Shillelagh with Magic Initiate or a druid dip to be SAD. It's way easier to be a SAD monk than a SAD paladin.
I don’t quite agree with this. Yes, Astral Self can prioritize WIS but AC is still dependent on DEX as well. Unless you’re good with low AC. And being in melee means you still need to have some CON, though the extra reach helps some. But I still wouldn’t call any monk SAD
There are so many amazing half-frats now, Monk can easily grab Fey Touched or Crusher without sacrificing anything. Plus Astral Monk is SAD, or pock up Shillelagh with Magic Initiate or a druid dip to be SAD. It's way easier to be a SAD monk than a SAD paladin.
If a class doesn't work without feats or multiclassing, then it's a badly designed class. Neither Fey Touched nor Crusher are in 1DnD yet. Best you can start with is 16/16 in Dex/Wis, which means that you'll need at least 4 ASIs to get to 20/20. SAD paladin takes one level in hexblade, though it's not like paladin needed that spell save DC to buff, heal, and smite.
Why don't we instead look back at Quar1on's suggestion earlier in the thread to give monks the choice to swap Wisdom for Constitution for the HP bonus? Or, like I added, go even further and have them add both? It seems to me that really pretty much solves the ability score dilemma of monks in a much simpler manner than making the numerous changes that have been suggested. I think that Wisdom should be relevant to monks, and this certainly assures it will be while also essentially removing their dependency on Constitution. Ki abilities may also need to be tweaked and it certainly doesn't solve the short rest/long rest problem between classes (but that is not exclusive to monk).
Why reinvent the bicycle when Dex and Con give monks all they need? I don't understand this fixation on Wis, especially since the reasoning behind hanging both AC and save DC on Wis are pretty much superficial. It's strange that an ascetic practitioner of martial arts that spends years honing his body to perfect state, a living weapon, would have low Con.
For me it is because the core of the Monk class is someone who perfects themselves physically through mental discipline. I will admit that is my bias in looking at fixes, and so solutions that make Wis irrelevant certainly irk me. I also think that using Wis to add to HP solves the Monk's major point of MADness in one fell swoop (severely reducing dependence on Con through boosting HP and making a good AC more achievable while also making decent save DCs possible, although I would have no problem with a Monk calculating their save DC with either Wis or Dex). I do agree with you that compared to Rangers and Paladins, the current Monk is far more debilitated by the absolute necessity of both Dex and Wis. My solution definitely does not remove this but is does essentially remove the real necessity of boosting Con.
I would agree that solutions that are dependent on feats do not solve the problem, but I would also hope that solutions that are over-dependent on one level dips that are too good to ignore (Hexblade for Paladins, certain Cleric subclasses for heavy armor, etc.) should be eliminated as well. Just as with the fact that Fey Touched and Crusher are not yet in 1DnD yet, neither is Hexblade (and even if it does remain, its advantages may be delayed beyond a one level dip).
I also think that using Wis to add to HP solves the Monk's major point of MADness in one fell swoop (severely reducing dependence on Con through boosting HP and making a good AC more achievable while also making decent save DCs possible, although I would have no problem with a Monk calculating their save DC with either Wis or Dex).
The problem here is that while HP through Wis would make monk "fatter", you'll still need to level Dex to get that AC, and you're back to having to go for 20/20 Dex/Wis. I can understand attachment to Wis and I agree that scrapping it altogether feels a bit irking, but I'd rather fix the mechanics first, then come up with flavor stuff to justify it somehow. No amount of flavor will substitute the satisfaction of accessible power and versatility.
I would agree that solutions that are dependent on feats do not solve the problem, but I would also hope that solutions that are over-dependent on one level dips that are too good to ignore (Hexblade for Paladins, certain Cleric subclasses for heavy armor, etc.) should be eliminated as well. Just as with the fact that Fey Touched and Crusher are not yet in 1DnD yet, neither is Hexblade (and even if it does remain, its advantages may be delayed beyond a one level dip).
Yeah, I really hope that finalized 1DnD classes will be self-sufficient and 1-level dips will be less tempting. Though the new ranger's first level is very, very tempting with its no-concentration Hunter's Mark, at least in the first revision.
Monk AC isn't particularly low though? Barbarians, Rogues, Bards, Warlocks, Druids and Rangers have roughly the same AC (or for Bard and Warlock worse AC). The only "problem" with Monk AC is that you can't multiclass to munchkin it to break bounded accuracy of the game [which also isn't true you can wear armour as a Monk through multiclassing and only sacrifice two of your monk features or get the Shield spell like any other martial]. Monk has strategic choices to make in combat [which I thought was desirable in martials] that depend on their subclass, they can hit-and-run using Flurry of Blows to maximize damage (Open Hand & Drunken Master can do this at no extra ki cost) or they can use ranged attacks to avoid being trapped in melee (Kensei and Sun Soul get features to support this) or they use attacks with Reach to avoid being trapped in melee (Four Elements, Astral Self) or they can choose to stay in melee and tank using Patient Defence at the cost of lower DPR [Dodge Action is on average better than the Shield spell], or they can take on one enemy and stun them to avoid being attacked.
There are so many amazing half-frats now, Monk can easily grab Fey Touched or Crusher without sacrificing anything. Plus Astral Monk is SAD, or pock up Shillelagh with Magic Initiate or a druid dip to be SAD. It's way easier to be a SAD monk than a SAD paladin.
If a class doesn't work without feats or multiclassing, then it's a badly designed class. Neither Fey Touched nor Crusher are in 1DnD yet. Best you can start with is 16/16 in Dex/Wis, which means that you'll need at least 4 ASIs to get to 20/20. SAD paladin takes one level in hexblade, though it's not like paladin needed that spell save DC to buff, heal, and smite.
Neither of those feats are mandatory to play a monk, monk works just fine if you choose to spend ASI to boost Wis, Dex, and Con. But if you want to take feats, you can do so without sacrificing Wis & Dex progression through half-frats. And in One D&D ALL martial focused feats are half feats now. With Monk movement bonuses a One D&D monk with the Charger or Grappler feat is looking pretty awesome!
And Monks don't need Wis to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defence or run a million ft in one round, or use almost every subclass feature. Two class features of Monk relies on Wis that is all.
Monk AC isn't particularly low though? Barbarians, Rogues, Bards, Warlocks, Druids and Rangers have roughly the same AC (or for Bard and Warlock worse AC). The only "problem" with Monk AC is that you can't multiclass to munchkin it to break bounded accuracy of the game [which also isn't true you can wear armour as a Monk through multiclassing and only sacrifice two of your monk features or get the Shield spell like any other martial]. Monk has strategic choices to make in combat [which I thought was desirable in martials] that depend on their subclass, they can hit-and-run using Flurry of Blows to maximize damage (Open Hand & Drunken Master can do this at no extra ki cost) or they can use ranged attacks to avoid being trapped in melee (Kensei and Sun Soul get features to support this) or they use attacks with Reach to avoid being trapped in melee (Four Elements, Astral Self) or they can choose to stay in melee and tank using Patient Defence at the cost of lower DPR [Dodge Action is on average better than the Shield spell], or they can take on one enemy and stun them to avoid being attacked.
It's unlikely that you actually played monk. First of all, monks are melee combatants. Along with barbarian (d12 HP and resistance to damage), paladin and fighter (20-22 AC and more). Monk with their d8 HP and 16-ish AC looks scrawny compared to that. Oh and while the others pump d8+8 damage with their magic longswords with fighting style and barbarian lays the freaking smackdown with GWM Reckless Attack for 1d12+18, monk gets to punch for like 1d6+4, though it's three times. But wait, monk has all those awesome strategic abilities. Okay, you use them six or seven times and you're out. Try "skirmishing" (no one does that) and you get your face full of AoO. Step of the Wind? Burns ki. Flurry of Blows? Burns ki. Stunning Strike? Burns ki. It's not uncommon for a monk to unload in two rounds and then just suck for the rest of combat. And all the fights afterwards if the DM isn't generous with short rests. Actually, that's what happened like 3 times out of 4 in the games I DM'd or played. In 1-10 level range, the monk is starving.
Neither of those feats are mandatory to play a monk, monk works just fine if you choose to spend ASI to boost Wis, Dex, and Con. But if you want to take feats, you can do so without sacrificing Wis & Dex progression through half-frats. And in One D&D ALL martial focused feats are half feats now. With Monk movement bonuses a One D&D monk with the Charger or Grappler feat is looking pretty awesome!
And Monks don't need Wis to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defence or run a million ft in one round, or use almost every subclass feature. Two class features of Monk relies on Wis that is all.
Basic math says that in order to turn 16 and 14 into 20 and 20, you need 4 and 6, and 4+6=10. How do you get 10 ability score points with five feats that give you 1 ability score point each? Oh and not every feat even lets you pick Dex and Wis. At best, you can start with 16/16 if you really dump the rest, but that doesn't change much. Of course, monks technically need Wis only to survive (AC) and be useful at all (Stunning Strike), but these are pretty insignificant I guess. Stunning Strike is the monk's main feature. I don't know if I have to tell you how goddamn powerful stunned condition is. You lock the target from doing anything at all and all attacks against the target have advantage. It's pratically a mark of certain death. Compared to that, FoB is mostly laughable. The one thing that balances it out (to the average level of suck) is that your Stunning Strike doesn't always work. In fact, a lot of monsters have quite high Con, and Wis isn't the first stat monks raise to the maximum. Spells end up being more reliable for crowd control because casters' spell save DC is always at peak, unlike monks' ki save DC. Well, yeah, as long as you have the ki to disengage, you can run a million feet. But for what? The only real use for that in combat is to quickly get to stun enemy spellcaster. Or run the hell away because you lost.
Monk AC isn't particularly low though? Barbarians, Rogues, Bards, Warlocks, Druids and Rangers have roughly the same AC (or for Bard and Warlock worse AC). The only "problem" with Monk AC is that you can't multiclass to munchkin it to break bounded accuracy of the game [which also isn't true you can wear armour as a Monk through multiclassing and only sacrifice two of your monk features or get the Shield spell like any other martial]. Monk has strategic choices to make in combat [which I thought was desirable in martials] that depend on their subclass, they can hit-and-run using Flurry of Blows to maximize damage (Open Hand & Drunken Master can do this at no extra ki cost) or they can use ranged attacks to avoid being trapped in melee (Kensei and Sun Soul get features to support this) or they use attacks with Reach to avoid being trapped in melee (Four Elements, Astral Self) or they can choose to stay in melee and tank using Patient Defence at the cost of lower DPR [Dodge Action is on average better than the Shield spell], or they can take on one enemy and stun them to avoid being attacked.
I would agree with this sentiment. With a few minor tweaks, such as what I have suggested or supported (add Wis to HP and allow save DC for features to be based on either Wis or Dex) I don't think a Monk would absolutely need to max out both Wis and Dex to be plenty good. Along with these, I would be perfectly fine to allow medium armor for Monks as well. I don't really see the attraction for that option personally, but think it should be an option for those who like the idea so long as it is not clearly functionally better, essentially forcing armor on all Monks to perform their best.
Here's the answer, Crayon, Agile: currently, making a monk doesn't feel good. Your HP is too low, neither your attacks nor your defenses can be upgraded in-game through Sweet Loot because magic weapons and armor/protectives both are No-Go for monks, "skirmishing" is a damn dirty lie because you don't have the HP or the AC to shrug off attacks of opportunity and you never have the ki to disengage every turn, your every ASI is already earmarked for improving your base stats because that's literally the only way to improve your capabilities at all, and you always feel like you're a tier of play behind everybody else. Your monk always feels incomplete, unless you're playing a game with Heroic stat rolls and no/minimal magic gear, because it takes monks 19 levels to get to where everybody else is by level tennish. It sucks, and it doesn't bloody need to.
Maybe a Focused Aim version for skills/ability checks. When you fail an ability check you can spend 1-3 Ki and add 2 for each Ki point spent to the roll possibility turning the failure into a success. Could be useful in and out of combat.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Every other class in the game except for paladins and rangers had their save DC defined by their main stat. Paladnis don't rely on their spell save DC, because most their spells are used to heal and buff, and smites works through melee attack hitting. Ranger has it a bit worse, but there's also enough healing, buffs and summons in primal spell list that don't factor in spellcasting ability at all. Barkskin, summon beast, locate spells are all pretty solid. Bottom line is, paladin and ranger aren't as MAD, it's possible to have low Cha/Wis and still be pretty good, have spells at their full efficiency. Some class features reward high Cha/Wis, but they feel like a bonus, rather than necessity.
Monks, however, are a different case. Your very AC depends on Wis, and you can't solve this problem with armor. And while you have some defensive options to invest your ki into like dodge bonus action, your options are limited, have little efficiency, and burn your ki quickly. Stunning strike requires high Wis to be effective, and it's a crucial feature of monk. In other words, monk does not have that option to go easy on the second stat like paladin and ranger. And they still need Con because they're melee.
Which is why I believe that monk needs to lose dependency on Wis altogether. AC should progress with PB, and save DC should be determined either by Dex (because it's the main stat and because martial arts), or by Con (because ki is the magic of the body so to speak).
I already provided one idea: spend 1 ki (or PB times per long rest) to meditate on an ability to gain advantage on checks with chosen ability for, say, 10 minutes. It's like artificer's Flash of Genius, but a bit different.
Why don't we instead look back at Quar1on's suggestion earlier in the thread to give monks the choice to swap Wisdom for Constitution for the HP bonus? Or, like I added, go even further and have them add both? It seems to me that really pretty much solves the ability score dilemma of monks in a much simpler manner than making the numerous changes that have been suggested. I think that Wisdom should be relevant to monks, and this certainly assures it will be while also essentially removing their dependency on Constitution. Ki abilities may also need to be tweaked and it certainly doesn't solve the short rest/long rest problem between classes (but that is not exclusive to monk).
Why reinvent the bicycle when Dex and Con give monks all they need? I don't understand this fixation on Wis, especially since the reasoning behind hanging both AC and save DC on Wis are pretty much superficial. It's strange that an ascetic practitioner of martial arts that spends years honing his body to perfect state, a living weapon, would have low Con.
Because of the "wise sage" archetype for Shaloin monks which is the basis of the class. It isn't a Jackie Chan / Chuck Norris class - Chuck Norris is more an Unarmed Barbarian, Jackie is a STR + minor DEX Fighter/Rogue with Tavern Brawler.
In concept it is: a martial artist who isn't stronger than the average person, just has better techniques and training. They avoid getting hit by reading their opponents and predicting how their opponent will strike in order to dodge or deflect the blow (Wis +Dex AC) and when they strike they hit weak spots of their target to disable them using the minimum force necessary (Dex based attacks + stunning strike). They are trained in monasteries focused on importance of skill mastery, self-control, and artistry (Artisan Tool Proficiency, Wisdom & Intelligence skill proficiencies).
I missed that, sorry. I like that idea
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think something we should note is monk is already stronger than they were and other martials are already weaker than they were with the current UA's. Unarmed strikes are already better and allow easier grappling and shoving for monk. Light weapons are better for monks. Fighting styles and tavern Brawler is good for monks as first level feats. Finally, sharpshooter, great weapon master and polearm master, which is really what pushed other martials stronger than monks, all got big nerfs.
Jackie Chan was never about Str, Bolo Yeung was. And actually, Jackie Chan starred in "Drunken Master", which is the iconic depiction of the drunken master archetype, as well as "Shaolin Chamber of Death". Then there's Liu Kang, Ip Man, Bruce Lee's characters. Of course, there is that image of a sage mentoring the protagonist, but this applies to any mentor type of character. Wizards are also supposed to be sages, but there they are being full Int.
Regardless, basing a class on two ability scores is an automatic failure unless the class has defensive/buff/utility spellcasting that works without relying spell save DC. Dex+Wis monk is the monk we have today, with all the same problems. Still having to ignore the feats and spend them all on ASI to race to 20/20 just to stay functional. I already described the easier solutions to this problem in this thread.
There are so many amazing half-frats now, Monk can easily grab Fey Touched or Crusher without sacrificing anything. Plus Astral Monk is SAD, or pock up Shillelagh with Magic Initiate or a druid dip to be SAD. It's way easier to be a SAD monk than a SAD paladin.
Give monks a Deflect Attack, A deflect missile reaction for both ranged and melee attacks.
Can reduce damage by 1D10 + Dex mod + Monk Level.
If damage is reduced to 0 or less can
1) For 1 Ki make a ranged attack. for MA damage di + Dex mod damage
2) For 1 Ki make a melee attack to a target adjacent to both you and attacker for MA damage di + Dex mod damage
I don’t quite agree with this. Yes, Astral Self can prioritize WIS but AC is still dependent on DEX as well. Unless you’re good with low AC. And being in melee means you still need to have some CON, though the extra reach helps some. But I still wouldn’t call any monk SAD
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
If a class doesn't work without feats or multiclassing, then it's a badly designed class. Neither Fey Touched nor Crusher are in 1DnD yet. Best you can start with is 16/16 in Dex/Wis, which means that you'll need at least 4 ASIs to get to 20/20. SAD paladin takes one level in hexblade, though it's not like paladin needed that spell save DC to buff, heal, and smite.
For me it is because the core of the Monk class is someone who perfects themselves physically through mental discipline. I will admit that is my bias in looking at fixes, and so solutions that make Wis irrelevant certainly irk me. I also think that using Wis to add to HP solves the Monk's major point of MADness in one fell swoop (severely reducing dependence on Con through boosting HP and making a good AC more achievable while also making decent save DCs possible, although I would have no problem with a Monk calculating their save DC with either Wis or Dex). I do agree with you that compared to Rangers and Paladins, the current Monk is far more debilitated by the absolute necessity of both Dex and Wis. My solution definitely does not remove this but is does essentially remove the real necessity of boosting Con.
I would agree that solutions that are dependent on feats do not solve the problem, but I would also hope that solutions that are over-dependent on one level dips that are too good to ignore (Hexblade for Paladins, certain Cleric subclasses for heavy armor, etc.) should be eliminated as well. Just as with the fact that Fey Touched and Crusher are not yet in 1DnD yet, neither is Hexblade (and even if it does remain, its advantages may be delayed beyond a one level dip).
The problem here is that while HP through Wis would make monk "fatter", you'll still need to level Dex to get that AC, and you're back to having to go for 20/20 Dex/Wis. I can understand attachment to Wis and I agree that scrapping it altogether feels a bit irking, but I'd rather fix the mechanics first, then come up with flavor stuff to justify it somehow. No amount of flavor will substitute the satisfaction of accessible power and versatility.
Yeah, I really hope that finalized 1DnD classes will be self-sufficient and 1-level dips will be less tempting. Though the new ranger's first level is very, very tempting with its no-concentration Hunter's Mark, at least in the first revision.
Monk AC isn't particularly low though? Barbarians, Rogues, Bards, Warlocks, Druids and Rangers have roughly the same AC (or for Bard and Warlock worse AC). The only "problem" with Monk AC is that you can't multiclass to munchkin it to break bounded accuracy of the game [which also isn't true you can wear armour as a Monk through multiclassing and only sacrifice two of your monk features or get the Shield spell like any other martial]. Monk has strategic choices to make in combat [which I thought was desirable in martials] that depend on their subclass, they can hit-and-run using Flurry of Blows to maximize damage (Open Hand & Drunken Master can do this at no extra ki cost) or they can use ranged attacks to avoid being trapped in melee (Kensei and Sun Soul get features to support this) or they use attacks with Reach to avoid being trapped in melee (Four Elements, Astral Self) or they can choose to stay in melee and tank using Patient Defence at the cost of lower DPR [Dodge Action is on average better than the Shield spell], or they can take on one enemy and stun them to avoid being attacked.
Neither of those feats are mandatory to play a monk, monk works just fine if you choose to spend ASI to boost Wis, Dex, and Con. But if you want to take feats, you can do so without sacrificing Wis & Dex progression through half-frats. And in One D&D ALL martial focused feats are half feats now. With Monk movement bonuses a One D&D monk with the Charger or Grappler feat is looking pretty awesome!
And Monks don't need Wis to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defence or run a million ft in one round, or use almost every subclass feature. Two class features of Monk relies on Wis that is all.
It's unlikely that you actually played monk. First of all, monks are melee combatants. Along with barbarian (d12 HP and resistance to damage), paladin and fighter (20-22 AC and more). Monk with their d8 HP and 16-ish AC looks scrawny compared to that. Oh and while the others pump d8+8 damage with their magic longswords with fighting style and barbarian lays the freaking smackdown with GWM Reckless Attack for 1d12+18, monk gets to punch for like 1d6+4, though it's three times. But wait, monk has all those awesome strategic abilities. Okay, you use them six or seven times and you're out. Try "skirmishing" (no one does that) and you get your face full of AoO. Step of the Wind? Burns ki. Flurry of Blows? Burns ki. Stunning Strike? Burns ki. It's not uncommon for a monk to unload in two rounds and then just suck for the rest of combat. And all the fights afterwards if the DM isn't generous with short rests. Actually, that's what happened like 3 times out of 4 in the games I DM'd or played. In 1-10 level range, the monk is starving.
Basic math says that in order to turn 16 and 14 into 20 and 20, you need 4 and 6, and 4+6=10. How do you get 10 ability score points with five feats that give you 1 ability score point each? Oh and not every feat even lets you pick Dex and Wis. At best, you can start with 16/16 if you really dump the rest, but that doesn't change much. Of course, monks technically need Wis only to survive (AC) and be useful at all (Stunning Strike), but these are pretty insignificant I guess. Stunning Strike is the monk's main feature. I don't know if I have to tell you how goddamn powerful stunned condition is. You lock the target from doing anything at all and all attacks against the target have advantage. It's pratically a mark of certain death. Compared to that, FoB is mostly laughable. The one thing that balances it out (to the average level of suck) is that your Stunning Strike doesn't always work. In fact, a lot of monsters have quite high Con, and Wis isn't the first stat monks raise to the maximum. Spells end up being more reliable for crowd control because casters' spell save DC is always at peak, unlike monks' ki save DC. Well, yeah, as long as you have the ki to disengage, you can run a million feet. But for what? The only real use for that in combat is to quickly get to stun enemy spellcaster. Or run the hell away because you lost.
I would agree with this sentiment. With a few minor tweaks, such as what I have suggested or supported (add Wis to HP and allow save DC for features to be based on either Wis or Dex) I don't think a Monk would absolutely need to max out both Wis and Dex to be plenty good. Along with these, I would be perfectly fine to allow medium armor for Monks as well. I don't really see the attraction for that option personally, but think it should be an option for those who like the idea so long as it is not clearly functionally better, essentially forcing armor on all Monks to perform their best.
Here's the answer, Crayon, Agile: currently, making a monk doesn't feel good. Your HP is too low, neither your attacks nor your defenses can be upgraded in-game through Sweet Loot because magic weapons and armor/protectives both are No-Go for monks, "skirmishing" is a damn dirty lie because you don't have the HP or the AC to shrug off attacks of opportunity and you never have the ki to disengage every turn, your every ASI is already earmarked for improving your base stats because that's literally the only way to improve your capabilities at all, and you always feel like you're a tier of play behind everybody else. Your monk always feels incomplete, unless you're playing a game with Heroic stat rolls and no/minimal magic gear, because it takes monks 19 levels to get to where everybody else is by level tennish. It sucks, and it doesn't bloody need to.
Please do not contact or message me.