I get it, and I think it’s a cool idea. You can still scale it by class level without it being tied to pb. Something like warlock invocations. Just make it into its own column and have it go up at a slower rate
The larger the monk's ki pool, the stronger the tendency will be for them to do the same thing they did with R5e and make everything cost ki, even when it damn well shouldn't. Wizards' R5e assumption that everybody was short resting thirty times a day and that people would play to high levels is what got monks caught in the trap of being overdependent on Ki in the first place. I'd really push for a design where Ki is used only for stuff that really swings battles, as opposed to eighty percent of your class being locked behind your two to six points of Universe Juice you never get back because nobody ever short rests. Stunning Strike is borked to high hell and deserves to be limited/metered, but a lot of what the monk does with Ki really doesn't merit being so ruthlessly limited as Ki forces it to be.
Unless I’m missing something the base features that use Ki are:
Flurry of Blows
Step of the Wind
Patient Defense
Deflect Missiles (only if you are throwing back)
Stunning Strike
and Diamond Soul (for failed save).
Other than that the rest are free. But they are key features and used a lot. One suggestion has been break up Stunning Strike so it has a weaker version at level 5 and scales up. You could have it free for the weaker version and more powerful version cost Ki. Or not. PB times per day with a use after that costing Ki could also work. And then keep the Ki pool as is, and make subclass features that are more themed and powerful that use the Ki pool (looking at you Four Elements). Keep the core monk features free.
The issue, Kreen, is that you've just listed half of the monk's class features and almost all of their Dope Monk Shit. Just about everything somebody plays a monk to do is wrapped up in ki. They can't protect themselves from enemies without ki. They can't multistrike their enemies without ki. They can't move freely without ki. They can't do all the things that might make their crappy armor class and lousy hit die survivable without ki. A good player can overcome a lot of that, to be certain, but they shouldn't have to. The class should be functional and fun to play without ki, and right now I don't believe it is.
The larger the monk's ki pool, the stronger the tendency will be for them to do the same thing they did with R5e and make everything cost ki, even when it damn well shouldn't. Wizards' R5e assumption that everybody was short resting thirty times a day and that people would play to high levels is what got monks caught in the trap of being overdependent on Ki in the first place. I'd really push for a design where Ki is used only for stuff that really swings battles, as opposed to eighty percent of your class being locked behind your two to six points of Universe Juice you never get back because nobody ever short rests. Stunning Strike is borked to high hell and deserves to be limited/metered, but a lot of what the monk does with Ki really doesn't merit being so ruthlessly limited as Ki forces it to be.
Agreed. Simply adding ki is fighting the symptoms, not the cause. Though there has to be some resource management.
Make the now BA unarmed strike part of the attack action like the new light weapon property. FoB can still be a BA (maybe just one extra attack for free, or a Ki point, since you get that “extra light weapon property” attack. But make Dodge BA free and you have to sacrifice damage for defense. Strip of the Wind should be free (I’ve said this in other threads including the one I linked above).
Or skip Dodge altogether and make a melee version of deflect missiles
Is it when a monk undresses so fast that enemies can barely even see it?
The issue, Kreen, is that you've just listed half of the monk's class features and almost all of their Dope Monk Shit. Just about everything somebody plays a monk to do is wrapped up in ki. They can't protect themselves from enemies without ki. They can't multistrike their enemies without ki. They can't move freely without ki. They can't do all the things that might make their crappy armor class and lousy hit die survivable without ki. A good player can overcome a lot of that, to be certain, but they shouldn't have to. The class should be functional and fun to play without ki, and right now I don't believe it is.
I did mention they are key features and used a lot. And why I also advocated for making them free and using Ki for subclass features to fuel more thematic and powerful abilities of the subclass. I e also advocated in the thread I linked also going Ki-less for the monk. There are ways to improve the monk. I like ones you e mentioned although I don’t particularly agree about the armor. But i wouldn’t rage quit if it was added either.
The thing with armor is that the barbarian proves you CAN have both armor training and Unarmored Defense on the same class and let the player choose which they want to pursue. Barbarians can be armored in nothing but body oil and ego like they always are in sword and sorcery fiction, or they can indulge in a little Spartanesque plating with exquisitely carved bronze nipples if they so choose. Monks don't get that luxury - they HAVE to focus on Unarmored Defense, and if they neglect it for whatever reason then they're as simple to hit as the party wizard. That just ain't right, especially when it also locks the monk out of thirty percent of a typical party's haul of arcane loot. Magic armor is everywhere, some of it's really cool, and monks get exactly none of it. Nor are Monk Only Items a fix because those always feel contrived as hell, it's never exciting for your DM to say "Oh, this ancient dragon hoard just so happened to have a set of martial artist's robes in it! Enjoy!" That's just lame, and it doesn't have to be.
Let monks have armor training and choose whether or not to use it, same as barbarians. If we can accept barbs in breastplates (with exquisitely carved bronze nipples in true Spartan style), we can accept adventuring warrior monks in breastplates too.
I will concede the point that an armor option like Barbarian isn’t a bad route to go. Although I really would like monks not to be so dependent on both Dex and Wis for their features as well as needing Con. Armor can help with that and a viable route for a STR based monk would be nice too, if you wanted to be a grappler without going Astral Self.
Funnily enough, Conan the barbarian actually did not neglect armor in Robert Howard's novels. It was Schwarznegger's physique and Vallejo's impressive art that created this naked barbarian trope. Giving monks armor proficiency does solve quite some problems easily, but if you make it optimal for monks to use armor and weapons like anyone else, would they even be monks? To me, this simple solution is like a developer saying, "alright, I give up, there's literally no way I can make a shaolin monk in DnD, so here's a fighter with some ki stuff slapped on top of it". Though for some reason monk was decent in previous editions.
Draconic Sorcerer gets AC 13+DEX. Monks could do similar but allow it to scale with Tier, topping out at 16+DEX at level 17. Or any other variation you would like. You could drop WIS as a required stat and calculate DC a different way. There are a lot of ways to buff the monk to fit better in the Warrior group. Hopefully, we will get the Warrior UA soon so we can better see what direction WotC is going. Or the Mage UA soon so we can see what they are doing, if anything, with spellcasters.
There's a lot of ways they could make Unarmored Defense suck less, yes. I don't think it matters. Unarmored Defense will always amount to "your AC mostly kinda sucks, you can't do any damned thing to fix it, and also you can't make use of half the game's cool magic loot because you must be naked at all times."
I don't see why that should be a necessity, when they can make it an option to opt into instead.
In the end, I think it's just a legacy thing. Monks in 1E AD&D couldn't wear armor and I don't think later editions allowed it either. Same for Druids and metal armor. It's a hanger on from a bygone era. Monks had a scaling AC from 10 to -3 at 17th level, their class limit (AC 10 to 23 in 5E terms, if I did my math correctly). I doubt WotC has any intention of adding the option to 1D&D monks. If they do, I will be fine with it.
Yes, not having access to cool magic armor or shields kinda sucks. But weapons and most other items are still fair game for monks. And in a rare case your party loses their gear, monks would be way ahead of the power curve standin around all naked.
Funnily enough, Conan the barbarian actually did not neglect armor in Robert Howard's novels. It was Schwarznegger's physique and Vallejo's impressive art that created this naked barbarian trope. Giving monks armor proficiency does solve quite some problems easily, but if you make it optimal for monks to use armor and weapons like anyone else, would they even be monks? To me, this simple solution is like a developer saying, "alright, I give up, there's literally no way I can make a shaolin monk in DnD, so here's a fighter with some ki stuff slapped on top of it". Though for some reason monk was decent in previous editions.
Adding armor but limiting it to Medium Armor and no Shields does not make a Shaolin Monk any less a viable option, it just stops it from being the only option.
Adding armor but limiting it to Medium Armor and no Shields does not make a Shaolin Monk any less a viable option, it just stops it from being the only option.
If we take into account optimisation, if it's an easy and opitmal option, then it is de-facto the only option. How many barbarians actually use their unarmored defense? At this point it's more of a ribbon.
What's the solve, then? Because I'll come right out and say it - Unarmored Defense (Monk) sucks. It's overly limiting, it requires too much investment for too little return, and combined with the monk's other frontliner issues it forces the class into a bizarre playstyle where it deals melee damage but tries to avoid melee combat through weird ****ery with "skirmishing" that never pans out. At least Unarmored Defense (Barbarian) is backed by the ability to use shields and the fact that your oiled pecs also give you a fat HP bar. yes, barbarians often choose to use medium armor anyways, but that's because they loot awesome magical armor and decide to use it. Which should be an option.
The best AC you can get with Medium armor is 16 (14+2 DEX), or 17 with disadvantage on Stealth (15+2 DEX). As long as Unarmored Defense is roughly equivalent, then it's an option. You can accomplish that in a number of ways that also stop Monks from being so MAD.
Make it a flat AC + Dex that scales as you level. Starting with AC 13 + Dex. Most Monks make Dex their highest score, with a +3 being the max with standard array or points buy (can't balance anything with rolled stats). So most Monks would be able to start with AC 16 naked, with no disadvantage on stealth, and no extra encumbrance. If they didn't go for high Dex, they could wear a Breastplate for the same AC. If a Dex monk later found or bought half plate, they could decide to take the Stealth disadvantage and wear it for a few levels before they get an increase in Unarmored Defense. As the feature improves, the same options will appear with magic armors. Use your naked AC, or put on the magic suit with whatever bonuses and penalties come with it. So the flat bonus just has to scale relatively well.
Alternatively they could let a Monk use Dex for everything that Strength is normally used for. Unarmed Attacks, Grapple DCs, jumping etc. Then all Monks could dump Strength entirely, and Unarmored Defense would naturally rise to be an equal option to wearing armor. A standard array Monk could have +3 Dex and +3 Wis, for an AC 16. And as they max them out, they'll get to 20 AC.
It's all just a matter of playing with the numbers and features. If unarmored AC and armored AC stay roughly equivalent as the character progresses and finds magic armor, then the character always has an option. At certain points in one game, wearing the armor might be worth it. At other points it won't. And in games where magic armor doesn't appear, it will always be a good feature.
Adding armor but limiting it to Medium Armor and no Shields does not make a Shaolin Monk any less a viable option, it just stops it from being the only option.
If we take into account optimisation, if it's an easy and opitmal option, then it is de-facto the only option. How many barbarians actually use their unarmored defense? At this point it's more of a ribbon.
All of the ones I have played and most that I have seen played. I and the circle of people I game with don't play D&D like a bunch of MMO raiders. We don't build characters following online best build guides. We tend to build strong characters within the frame work of our own rp concepts. That means that the "optimal" choice gets tossed to the side for more "flavorful" options. It would be nice if the more flavorful options aren't always far below the power curve. They don't need to be perfect, just close enough that the build is viable.
What's the solve, then? Because I'll come right out and say it - Unarmored Defense (Monk) sucks. It's overly limiting, it requires too much investment for too little return, and combined with the monk's other frontliner issues it forces the class into a bizarre playstyle where it deals melee damage but tries to avoid melee combat through weird ****ery with "skirmishing" that never pans out. At least Unarmored Defense (Barbarian) is backed by the ability to use shields and the fact that your oiled pecs also give you a fat HP bar. yes, barbarians often choose to use medium armor anyways, but that's because they loot awesome magical armor and decide to use it. Which should be an option.
It's Unarmored Defense as it is now that sucks, because it kind of wraps around monk's MADness. Redesigning its formula is not a problem. As for awesome magical armor, well, me and my buds finished Tyranny of Dragons recently and we only kind of found 2 or 3 suits of armor, only one of which was used. IIRC my hexblade ended up wearing a breastplate+2 or something. The moon druid didn't need armor anyway as he used wild shape as a damage sponge. So much for all the awesome magical armor. There isn't much of it, and handing it out is entirely up to a DM, so I wouldn't design a class around the assumption that DM will do this or that.
I agree that the whole deal about running around trying to dive in and out of melee is weird at best, which is why monk is in a dire need for redesign, but I don't think that making monk into essentially a fighter subclass would be a good solution. Unarmed and unarmored combat are core ideas that make monks who they are. Nothing wrong in having a kensei subclass, but the theme of monk class is still this shaolin monk, Liu Kang, Jackie Chan and Ip Man. Leave the armor to fighter. It's their thing. Maybe to kensei subclass, too. But not the base monk.
What's the solve, then? Because I'll come right out and say it - Unarmored Defense (Monk) sucks. It's overly limiting, it requires too much investment for too little return, and combined with the monk's other frontliner issues it forces the class into a bizarre playstyle where it deals melee damage but tries to avoid melee combat through weird ****ery with "skirmishing" that never pans out. At least Unarmored Defense (Barbarian) is backed by the ability to use shields and the fact that your oiled pecs also give you a fat HP bar. yes, barbarians often choose to use medium armor anyways, but that's because they loot awesome magical armor and decide to use it. Which should be an option.
It's Unarmored Defense as it is now that sucks, because it kind of wraps around monk's MADness. Redesigning its formula is not a problem. As for awesome magical armor, well, me and my buds finished Tyranny of Dragons recently and we only kind of found 2 or 3 suits of armor, only one of which was used. IIRC my hexblade ended up wearing a breastplate+2 or something. The moon druid didn't need armor anyway as he used wild shape as a damage sponge. So much for all the awesome magical armor. There isn't much of it, and handing it out is entirely up to a DM, so I wouldn't design a class around the assumption that DM will do this or that.
I agree that the whole deal about running around trying to dive in and out of melee is weird at best, which is why monk is in a dire need for redesign, but I don't think that making monk into essentially a fighter subclass would be a good solution. Unarmed and unarmored combat are core ideas that make monks who they are. Nothing wrong in having a kensei subclass, but the theme of monk class is still this shaolin monk, Liu Kang, Jackie Chan and Ip Man. Leave the armor to fighter. It's their thing. Maybe to kensei subclass, too. But not the base monk.
I really don't see how armor is a Fighter thing. Artificer, Barbarians, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Hexblades and Rangers can all use Medium Armor. Armor is no more a "Fighter thing" than Martial Weapons are. I get that you have your class fantasy, but the proposal does not prevent the naked monk punching people build you desire.
I get it, and I think it’s a cool idea. You can still scale it by class level without it being tied to pb. Something like warlock invocations. Just make it into its own column and have it go up at a slower rate
Unless I’m missing something the base features that use Ki are:
Flurry of Blows
Step of the Wind
Patient Defense
Deflect Missiles (only if you are throwing back)
Stunning Strike
and Diamond Soul (for failed save).
Other than that the rest are free. But they are key features and used a lot. One suggestion has been break up Stunning Strike so it has a weaker version at level 5 and scales up. You could have it free for the weaker version and more powerful version cost Ki. Or not. PB times per day with a use after that costing Ki could also work.
And then keep the Ki pool as is, and make subclass features that are more themed and powerful that use the Ki pool (looking at you Four Elements). Keep the core monk features free.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The issue, Kreen, is that you've just listed half of the monk's class features and almost all of their Dope Monk Shit. Just about everything somebody plays a monk to do is wrapped up in ki. They can't protect themselves from enemies without ki. They can't multistrike their enemies without ki. They can't move freely without ki. They can't do all the things that might make their crappy armor class and lousy hit die survivable without ki. A good player can overcome a lot of that, to be certain, but they shouldn't have to. The class should be functional and fun to play without ki, and right now I don't believe it is.
Please do not contact or message me.
Agreed. Simply adding ki is fighting the symptoms, not the cause. Though there has to be some resource management.
Is it when a monk undresses so fast that enemies can barely even see it?
I did mention they are key features and used a lot. And why I also advocated for making them free and using Ki for subclass features to fuel more thematic and powerful abilities of the subclass. I e also advocated in the thread I linked also going Ki-less for the monk. There are ways to improve the monk. I like ones you e mentioned although I don’t particularly agree about the armor. But i wouldn’t rage quit if it was added either.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The thing with armor is that the barbarian proves you CAN have both armor training and Unarmored Defense on the same class and let the player choose which they want to pursue. Barbarians can be armored in nothing but body oil and ego like they always are in sword and sorcery fiction, or they can indulge in a little Spartanesque plating with exquisitely carved bronze nipples if they so choose. Monks don't get that luxury - they HAVE to focus on Unarmored Defense, and if they neglect it for whatever reason then they're as simple to hit as the party wizard. That just ain't right, especially when it also locks the monk out of thirty percent of a typical party's haul of arcane loot. Magic armor is everywhere, some of it's really cool, and monks get exactly none of it. Nor are Monk Only Items a fix because those always feel contrived as hell, it's never exciting for your DM to say "Oh, this ancient dragon hoard just so happened to have a set of martial artist's robes in it! Enjoy!" That's just lame, and it doesn't have to be.
Let monks have armor training and choose whether or not to use it, same as barbarians. If we can accept barbs in breastplates (with exquisitely carved bronze nipples in true Spartan style), we can accept adventuring warrior monks in breastplates too.
Please do not contact or message me.
I will concede the point that an armor option like Barbarian isn’t a bad route to go. Although I really would like monks not to be so dependent on both Dex and Wis for their features as well as needing Con. Armor can help with that and a viable route for a STR based monk would be nice too, if you wanted to be a grappler without going Astral Self.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Funnily enough, Conan the barbarian actually did not neglect armor in Robert Howard's novels. It was Schwarznegger's physique and Vallejo's impressive art that created this naked barbarian trope. Giving monks armor proficiency does solve quite some problems easily, but if you make it optimal for monks to use armor and weapons like anyone else, would they even be monks? To me, this simple solution is like a developer saying, "alright, I give up, there's literally no way I can make a shaolin monk in DnD, so here's a fighter with some ki stuff slapped on top of it". Though for some reason monk was decent in previous editions.
Draconic Sorcerer gets AC 13+DEX. Monks could do similar but allow it to scale with Tier, topping out at 16+DEX at level 17. Or any other variation you would like. You could drop WIS as a required stat and calculate DC a different way. There are a lot of ways to buff the monk to fit better in the Warrior group. Hopefully, we will get the Warrior UA soon so we can better see what direction WotC is going. Or the Mage UA soon so we can see what they are doing, if anything, with spellcasters.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
There's a lot of ways they could make Unarmored Defense suck less, yes. I don't think it matters. Unarmored Defense will always amount to "your AC mostly kinda sucks, you can't do any damned thing to fix it, and also you can't make use of half the game's cool magic loot because you must be naked at all times."
I don't see why that should be a necessity, when they can make it an option to opt into instead.
Please do not contact or message me.
In the end, I think it's just a legacy thing. Monks in 1E AD&D couldn't wear armor and I don't think later editions allowed it either. Same for Druids and metal armor. It's a hanger on from a bygone era. Monks had a scaling AC from 10 to -3 at 17th level, their class limit (AC 10 to 23 in 5E terms, if I did my math correctly). I doubt WotC has any intention of adding the option to 1D&D monks. If they do, I will be fine with it.
Yes, not having access to cool magic armor or shields kinda sucks. But weapons and most other items are still fair game for monks. And in a rare case your party loses their gear, monks would be way ahead of the power curve standin around all naked.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Adding armor but limiting it to Medium Armor and no Shields does not make a Shaolin Monk any less a viable option, it just stops it from being the only option.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
If we take into account optimisation, if it's an easy and opitmal option, then it is de-facto the only option. How many barbarians actually use their unarmored defense? At this point it's more of a ribbon.
What's the solve, then? Because I'll come right out and say it - Unarmored Defense (Monk) sucks. It's overly limiting, it requires too much investment for too little return, and combined with the monk's other frontliner issues it forces the class into a bizarre playstyle where it deals melee damage but tries to avoid melee combat through weird ****ery with "skirmishing" that never pans out. At least Unarmored Defense (Barbarian) is backed by the ability to use shields and the fact that your oiled pecs also give you a fat HP bar. yes, barbarians often choose to use medium armor anyways, but that's because they loot awesome magical armor and decide to use it. Which should be an option.
Please do not contact or message me.
The best AC you can get with Medium armor is 16 (14+2 DEX), or 17 with disadvantage on Stealth (15+2 DEX). As long as Unarmored Defense is roughly equivalent, then it's an option. You can accomplish that in a number of ways that also stop Monks from being so MAD.
Make it a flat AC + Dex that scales as you level. Starting with AC 13 + Dex. Most Monks make Dex their highest score, with a +3 being the max with standard array or points buy (can't balance anything with rolled stats). So most Monks would be able to start with AC 16 naked, with no disadvantage on stealth, and no extra encumbrance. If they didn't go for high Dex, they could wear a Breastplate for the same AC. If a Dex monk later found or bought half plate, they could decide to take the Stealth disadvantage and wear it for a few levels before they get an increase in Unarmored Defense. As the feature improves, the same options will appear with magic armors. Use your naked AC, or put on the magic suit with whatever bonuses and penalties come with it. So the flat bonus just has to scale relatively well.
Alternatively they could let a Monk use Dex for everything that Strength is normally used for. Unarmed Attacks, Grapple DCs, jumping etc. Then all Monks could dump Strength entirely, and Unarmored Defense would naturally rise to be an equal option to wearing armor. A standard array Monk could have +3 Dex and +3 Wis, for an AC 16. And as they max them out, they'll get to 20 AC.
It's all just a matter of playing with the numbers and features. If unarmored AC and armored AC stay roughly equivalent as the character progresses and finds magic armor, then the character always has an option. At certain points in one game, wearing the armor might be worth it. At other points it won't. And in games where magic armor doesn't appear, it will always be a good feature.
All of the ones I have played and most that I have seen played. I and the circle of people I game with don't play D&D like a bunch of MMO raiders. We don't build characters following online best build guides. We tend to build strong characters within the frame work of our own rp concepts. That means that the "optimal" choice gets tossed to the side for more "flavorful" options. It would be nice if the more flavorful options aren't always far below the power curve. They don't need to be perfect, just close enough that the build is viable.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It's Unarmored Defense as it is now that sucks, because it kind of wraps around monk's MADness. Redesigning its formula is not a problem. As for awesome magical armor, well, me and my buds finished Tyranny of Dragons recently and we only kind of found 2 or 3 suits of armor, only one of which was used. IIRC my hexblade ended up wearing a breastplate+2 or something. The moon druid didn't need armor anyway as he used wild shape as a damage sponge. So much for all the awesome magical armor. There isn't much of it, and handing it out is entirely up to a DM, so I wouldn't design a class around the assumption that DM will do this or that.
I agree that the whole deal about running around trying to dive in and out of melee is weird at best, which is why monk is in a dire need for redesign, but I don't think that making monk into essentially a fighter subclass would be a good solution. Unarmed and unarmored combat are core ideas that make monks who they are. Nothing wrong in having a kensei subclass, but the theme of monk class is still this shaolin monk, Liu Kang, Jackie Chan and Ip Man. Leave the armor to fighter. It's their thing. Maybe to kensei subclass, too. But not the base monk.
I really don't see how armor is a Fighter thing. Artificer, Barbarians, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Hexblades and Rangers can all use Medium Armor. Armor is no more a "Fighter thing" than Martial Weapons are. I get that you have your class fantasy, but the proposal does not prevent the naked monk punching people build you desire.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Well, this might be just my fantasy, but then... what is monk? What is this class about? What are its key themes and features?
Just to name a few
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master