It wouldn't force monks to dual-wield any more than other classes arer 'forced' to dual-wield. The extra TWF attack is a max of 1d6 with no Dex unless you burn your starter feat on TWF-the-style, which is the same bonus everybody else gets for TWF. Nobody else is feeling 'forced' to dual-wield, ne? Why should monks? If they want to they can, but it shouldn't affect their class features.
So... you either go bare-handed and deal 1d6+Dex fist + 1d6+Dex bonus action, or dual wield and deal 1d6+Dex main hand + 1d6 off-hand + 1d6+Dex bonus action. Why would I not want to make an extra attack for 1d6 damage that by the way scales with martial arts just like bare fists (because monk weapons), and can be a magic weapon+3, unlike fists? Correct me if I'm getting that wrong...
No, I think that's accurate. Maybe 'forced' isn't exactly the word. But the benefits of 3 attacks over 2 are so great that you would basically see every Monk with 2 Short Swords and two weapon fighting style, which would be pretty sad from a variety point of view.
Which falls into the making a play style so good you have to do it or you are nerfing yourself. I’m sure they are looking to fix this. We won’t know for sure until the warrior playtest, but I don’t see them leaving martial arts as is.
So the idea is to instead make TWF completely useless for the monk by causing it to conflict with Martial Arts, again?
Why? And why isn't every fighter or rogue or ranger also "forced" into going for three attacks over two by the new TWF?
Fighters and Rangers have other viable weapon options. They can trade attacks for higher damage with bigger weapons, fighting styles for those weapons, and feats. Monks can't because they can't use those weapons.
I might agree that two weapon fighting is pretty much all a Rogue should do in melee at this point. Which kinda sucks.
Really it's so good that most Rangers probably will too.
I don't think Monks should be forced to not use two weapons either. I wish all of the monk weapons were viable. And I wish Rogues had more options too. Every build using the same weapons is boring. I just don't know what the solution is until we see the Warriors UA and other weapon properties.
In 5E, a level 1 monk has a base damage of quarterstaff + unarmed strike of 3+1d8+3+1d4 = 13.
For 1DND is there anything wrong with simply "Your unarmed strikes are light weapons. Light monk weapons always add your Ability Modifier to the attack’s damage." and starting the martial arts dice at d6? That is the simplest rules to allow fists to compare to two short swords. That gives damage at level 1 of 2*(3+d6)=13. Sadly quarterstaff + kick would no longer be possible as quarterstaff is not light.
When the Martial Arts die increases, there should also be an accuracy boost to unarmed strikes. In 5E, it is feasible to have a +3 weapon in the later tiers and be forced to use it alongside a +0 unarmed strike. At level 5 or 6, unarmed strikes could have a +1 bonus to hit, at level 11 a +2 bonus, and level 17 a +3 bonus.
Flurry of blows could simply be "Once per turn when you make an attack with a light monk weapon, you may make 2 attacks instead. " Then it can work on reactions too. Note any changes to Flurry of Blows or the Martial Arts Die can affect Way of Mercy. Thus, I suspect Way of Mercy could be 1 of the subclasses that gets rewritten. Way of Shadow is the least likely to need a rewrite, but the Ninja image is too iconic to leave out.
In 5E, a level 1 monk has a base damage of quarterstaff + unarmed strike of 3+1d8+3+1d4 = 13.
For 1DND is there anything wrong with simply "Your unarmed strikes are light weapons. Light monk weapons always add your Ability Modifier to the attack’s damage." and starting the martial arts dice at d6? That is the simplest rules to allow fists to compare to two short swords. That gives damage at level 1 of 2*(3+d6)=13. Sadly quarterstaff + kick would no longer be possible as quarterstaff is not light.
When the Martial Arts die increases, there should also be an accuracy boost to unarmed strikes. In 5E, it is feasible to have a +3 weapon in the later tiers and be forced to use it alongside a +0 unarmed strike. At level 5 or 6, unarmed strikes could have a +1 bonus to hit, at level 11 a +2 bonus, and level 17 a +3 bonus.
Flurry of blows could simply be "Once per turn when you make an attack with a light monk weapon, you may make 2 attacks instead. " Then it can work on reactions too. Note any changes to Flurry of Blows or the Martial Arts Die can affect Way of Mercy. Thus, I suspect Way of Mercy could be 1 of the subclasses that gets rewritten. Way of Shadow is the least likely to need a rewrite, but the Ninja image is too iconic to leave out.
Quarterstaff would be viable again if instead of "unarmed strikes gain the light property" it instead read "unarmed strikes and monk weapons gain the light property".
In 5E, a level 1 monk has a base damage of quarterstaff + unarmed strike of 3+1d8+3+1d4 = 13.
For 1DND is there anything wrong with simply "Your unarmed strikes are light weapons. Light monk weapons always add your Ability Modifier to the attack’s damage." and starting the martial arts dice at d6? That is the simplest rules to allow fists to compare to two short swords. That gives damage at level 1 of 2*(3+d6)=13. Sadly quarterstaff + kick would no longer be possible as quarterstaff is not light.
When the Martial Arts die increases, there should also be an accuracy boost to unarmed strikes. In 5E, it is feasible to have a +3 weapon in the later tiers and be forced to use it alongside a +0 unarmed strike. At level 5 or 6, unarmed strikes could have a +1 bonus to hit, at level 11 a +2 bonus, and level 17 a +3 bonus.
Flurry of blows could simply be "Once per turn when you make an attack with a light monk weapon, you may make 2 attacks instead. " Then it can work on reactions too. Note any changes to Flurry of Blows or the Martial Arts Die can affect Way of Mercy. Thus, I suspect Way of Mercy could be 1 of the subclasses that gets rewritten. Way of Shadow is the least likely to need a rewrite, but the Ninja image is too iconic to leave out.
Quarterstaff would be viable again if instead of "unarmed strikes gain the light property" it instead read "unarmed strikes and monk weapons gain the light property".
That could work. The question would be if they all count as a melee weapon attack with the light property? Or would monk weapons count as weapon attacks but unarmed attacks not? 'These fists are deadly weapons' sounds reasonable for Monks. But it shifts a lot of effects around from other things. They would gain uses for some abilities and lose a lot of unarmed synergies. So there would have to be some clarification. But I like the basic idea. It's simple and clean, if it's made clear enough.
Monk weapons include unarmed strikes and simple weapons that lack the Two-Handed and Heavy Property. You can use your Dexterity or Strength for attack and damage rolls made with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. When you take the Attack action to make attacks with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike, you can make one additional attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon with the Light property as part of that action. You add your ability modifier to the damage of this additional attack.
You can expend 1 ki and use your bonus action to make two unarmed strikes.
Patient Defense
You can expend 1 ki to take the Dodge action as a bonus action.
Step of the Wind
You can expend 1 ki to double your movement speed and triple your jump distance until the end of your turn.
Unarmoured Movement:
Your movement speed increases by 10 ft. You can Dash as a bonus action. You can use Dexterity (Acrobatics) to determine the distance you can Jump.
Kensei Weapons
You gain proficiency with martial weapons, any of these weapons count as monk weapons for you.
Martial Mastery 11th level Monk Feature
You gain +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls using unarmed strikes or monk weapons that do not already have a bonus to attack and damage rolls.
PS One D&D is just as bad as 5e for optimal build diversity. PAM + GWM and/or Two-weapon-fighting are far superior to all other melee builds and a one level dip into Ranger is practically a must for any weapon user. Plus dual-wielding hand-crossbows remains the superior ranged build.
So the idea is to instead make TWF completely useless for the monk by causing it to conflict with Martial Arts, again?
Why? And why isn't every fighter or rogue or ranger also "forced" into going for three attacks over two by the new TWF?
Other martials have other options. Great weapons, polearms, shields, ranged weapons. Monks are built around unarmed combat - as they should be. Everything else is secondary, because unarmed combat is the reason behind monk class existing in the first place. If you want to fight with weapons, you have literaly any other class at your disposal, even wizard can go melee as bladesinger. But unarmed fighting? Only monk. So first, WotC must make unarmed combat a completely viable, competitive alternative to dual wielding and GWM. Then, think how to adapt additional fighting styles to monk.
I swear, it sometimes feels like some people are actively hating martial artists and strive to make this fantasy's practical implementation inferior to other playstyles for reasons beyond my understanding. Why bother making unarmored fighting viable, just give them armor. Why bother making martial arts competitive, just give them weapons. Why bother making martial artist an efficient playstyle, just play a reflavored fighter. Just... why? Is it because making monks just like every other martial is an easier way out? Is it because designing a class that works differently so unimaginable?
Monk weapons include unarmed strikes and simple weapons that lack the Two-Handed and Heavy Property. You can use your Dexterity or Strength for attack and damage rolls made with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. When you take the Attack action to make attacks with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike, you can make one additional attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon with the Light property as part of that action. You add your ability modifier to the damage of this additional attack.
You can expend 1 ki and use your bonus action to make two unarmed strikes.
Patient Defense
You can expend 1 ki to take the Dodge action as a bonus action.
Step of the Wind
You can expend 1 ki to double your movement speed and triple your jump distance until the end of your turn.
Unarmoured Movement:
Your movement speed increases by 10 ft. You can Dash as a bonus action. You can use Dexterity (Acrobatics) to determine the distance you can Jump.
Kensei Weapons
You gain proficiency with martial weapons, any of these weapons count as monk weapons for you.
Martial Mastery 11th level Monk Feature
You gain +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls using unarmed strikes or monk weapons that do not already have a bonus to attack and damage rolls.
PS One D&D is just as bad as 5e for optimal build diversity. PAM + GWM and/or Two-weapon-fighting are far superior to all other melee builds and a one level dip into Ranger is practically a must for any weapon user. Plus dual-wielding hand-crossbows remains the superior ranged build.
That looks pretty good overall. I do have some questions.
What was your thinking for giving two extra attacks with Flurry of Blows? Just the resource expenditure?
Why no more Disengage with Step of the Wind?
Also I totally agree about the post script. I'm really concerned about the Ranger dip and homogenization all around. I thought there was a weird thing with two hand crossbows now where you couldn't actually load them though.
Giving two extra attacks with Flurry of Blows can help with damage scaling of monks since it scales with ki availability, and it pretty close powerwise to Hunter's Mark + Two weapon fighting in the early game.
Disengage could be added to Step of the Wind, but IMO Step of the Wind in more interesting for it out-of-combat utility (e.g. jumping up onto a roof or chasing down a suspect) so the speed & jump bonus need to be in there. Plus BA Disengage might be better not tied to a feature that requires ki or could be interesting as a Subclass feature as it currently is with Drunken Master, and other subclasses getting BA teleport , or some kind of obscurement or imposing the Dazed condition instead of the Disengage for more variety in playstyle.
Shadow Monk : 3rd level feature - Cloak of Darkness : As a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki to draw the shadows around you making yourself heavily obscured by magical darkness until the end of your turn. You can see through this obscurement.
Open Hand Monk: 3rd level feature - Stagger : When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike you can expend its reaction.
Drunken Master : 3rd level feature - Tipsy Sway : you can Disengage as a bonus action on your turn, when you use your Flurry of Blows you also gain the benefits of a Disengage.
Sun Soul : 3rd level feature - Blinding Light : you can use 1 ki and a bonus action to cause yourself to glow with bright light until the end of your turn, creatures within 5 ft of you are considered blinded while the light is shining.
4 Elements : 3rd level feature - Elemental Thrust : When you make an unarmed strike you can summon the elements around you to move you up to 5ft in a direction of your choice immediately before or after your attack. You can use this ability once per turn.
If monks get fighting styles I’m realizing some of my complaints go out the window. They just need access to TWF and dueling for those who prefer blade over fist, Blind fighting for those planning to go Shadow, unarmed fighting for those who can’t wait for the d8 strikes, and Archery and throw weapon fighting for those who prefer to use monk mobility to kite.
While I hope for far more this could be acceptable
So the idea is to instead make TWF completely useless for the monk by causing it to conflict with Martial Arts, again?
Why? And why isn't every fighter or rogue or ranger also "forced" into going for three attacks over two by the new TWF?
No, the idea is to have the monk work seamlessly with it such that they they can swap between weapons, fists or whatever, based on what they want as needed or as they choose to specialize. With no particular style being absolutely better than any of the others.
Like, I know some people here have a problem with the unarmed, unarmored shaolin warrior monk archetype, and I agree that variations from that should be possible. However, the shaolin warrior monk archetype IS the iconic style - I will argue that's exactly the trope that the Open Hand subclass, the basic, simple subclass option, is supposed to embody. So, we need to have fists and robes be roughly equal to swords and mail. Not have one be clearly superior to the other. And to not force the monk to use fists even when they want to use swords (or whatever).
We know that Fighting Styles are currently restricted to Warrior group. So, that implies that Monks and Barbarians will likely have access to those feats as a bonus level 1 or 2 feature, just like Fighter, Paladin and Ranger do. So, if Monks allow their fists to do d6 damage and have the Light, Finesse property, and get a Fighting Style at level 1... this will allow them to fight with short swords or fists and be equal.
And you have to remember that short swords are SIMPLE Weapons now, not Martial. With the implication that Martial Weapons are going to be better than short swords. And monks, as Warriors, will have access to Martial Weapons. Thus, I feel like establishing fists as equal to short swords is good baseline for the default class, with the options to specialize through feats like Tavern Brawler and and free Fighting Styles pick.
Personally, I wouldn't say its the obvious solution - I have a different "obvious" one, though we are on the same track. I would just turn monk fists into weapons and give them Light and Finesse properties and let them work that way instead of making them as a special exception. Then give them an option for Fighting Styles to customize how they want to monk about, letting them have access to a wider range of options. Though all that is just quibbling over which mechanics are better to represent the same ideas.
Flurry of Blows having two attacks in tier 1 is a bit excessive, imho, and I'm not sure if we want to go that route. That steps a lot on the Fighter's gimick of lots of Extra Attacks. I'd probably keep the restriction against Heavy weapons counting as monk weapons too.
Shadow Monk : 3rd level feature - Cloak of Darkness : As a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki to draw the shadows around you making yourself heavily obscured by magical darkness until the end of your turn. You can see through this obscurement.
Open Hand Monk: 3rd level feature - Stagger : When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike you can expend its reaction.
Drunken Master : 3rd level feature - Tipsy Sway : you can Disengage as a bonus action on your turn, when you use your Flurry of Blows you also gain the benefits of a Disengage.
Sun Soul : 3rd level feature - Blinding Light : you can use 1 ki and a bonus action to cause yourself to glow with bright light until the end of your turn, creatures within 5 ft of you are considered blinded while the light is shining.
4 Elements : 3rd level feature - Elemental Thrust : When you make an unarmed strike you can summon the elements around you to move you up to 5ft in a direction of your choice immediately before or after your attack. You can use this ability once per turn.
I'm kind of hoping that the subclasses will work by modifying things like... like having the Shadow Monk teleport work via modifying how Step of the Wind works. Open Hand modifying Flurry of Blows. Etc. I love subclasses that modify core class abilities to make them awesome.
If monks get fighting styles I’m realizing some of my complaints go out the window. They just need access to TWF and dueling for those who prefer blade over fist, Blind fighting for those planning to go Shadow, unarmed fighting for those who can’t wait for the d8 strikes, and Archery and throw weapon fighting for those who prefer to use monk mobility to kite.
While I hope for far more this could be acceptable
[facepalm] I was so focused on white room damage that I completely forgot about the changes to Shove and Grapple. As a reminder:
On a hit, your Unarmed Strike causes one of the following effects of your choice:
Damage. The target takes Bludgeoning Damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target is Grappled, and the grapple’s escape DC equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one Size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab the target.
Shove. You either push the target 5 feet away or knock the target Prone. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one Size larger than you.
This gives an alternative solution
Your unarmed strikes are light weapons.
Monk weapons are unarmed strikes and simple weapons. [Includes darts, short bows, and greatclubs for simple rules. But greatclubs are questionable.]
Your monk weapons have the finesse property.
You can roll a Martial Arts Dice in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table. [starting as d6 per consensus]
When you use an unarmed strike to Grapple or Shove, you may also roll your Martial Arts Dice for damage.
At either level 1 or level 2, the grapple DC could be set with DEX or WIS (Ki Save DC). Wording TBD.
This makes monks unique from a TWF Fighter or Ranger. A single greatclub attack deals 3+1d10=8.5. Two shortswords (or shortsword+unarmed strike) deal 3+2d6=10. Shortsword+Shove deals 3+2d6=10 plus the effect. Shove+Grapple deals 2d6=7 plus both effects (prone and can't stand up). Less damage than 5E, but more effects.
Here is the tricky question. Is Shoving enemies 5 ft or prone sufficient for our desire for a Disengage? Some enemies have 10 ft reach, but could be knocked prone for disadvantage on the Opportunity Attack. Some enemies are immune to prone, but may still be pushed. That leaves trouble when attacking huge creatures, but perhaps that is acceptable?
Speculation: I expect Ranger's Hunter's Mark to get the concentration-free trait at a later level (such as level 5) instead of level 1. That would ease the pressure on Tier 1 and remove the obvious multiclass dip.
I would just turn monk fists into weapons and give them Light and Finesse properties and let them work that way instead of making them as a special exception. Then give them an option for Fighting Styles to customize how they want to monk about, letting them have access to a wider range of options. Though all that is just quibbling over which mechanics are better to represent the same ideas.
The problem with turning fists into weapons is that you cannot use the Dueling Fighting Style because you are always wielding two weapons. Plus it then gets very confusing about whether the monk has a "free hand" to grapple with or with which to cast spells and weirdness in "drawing and stowing" rules - plus it limits the monk to making attacks with their fists where as RAW unarmed strikes include: kicks, head butts, chest slams, elbowing, shoulder bash etc... If your fantasy is a monk that uses spinning kicks to hit enemies then saying "your fists becomes weapons ..." does not support that fantasy. It also makes it more annoying for people reading the book because they have to go look up two additional terms that are in a completely different section to figure out how their base class ability works. So IMO it is easier to just write it out plainly - there is enough confusing already about the overlap between unarmed strike, weapon attack, and attack with a weapon.
Flurry of Blows having two attacks in tier 1 is a bit excessive, imho, and I'm not sure if we want to go that route. That steps a lot on the Fighter's gimick of lots of Extra Attacks. I'd probably keep the restriction against Heavy weapons counting as monk weapons too.
The Fighter's gimmick is having lots of ASIs / Feats plus lots of weapon attacks (which benefit from those feats), where as the monk has always been the class with the most total attacks but half of them are restricted to being unarmed strikes. Two attacks with Flurry of Blows in Tier 1 is: 4d6+16 total on a Flurry of Blows round and 2d6+8 on a non-Flurry round at tier 1 you have 4 ki or fewer so you cannot Flurry every round - IME you can Flurry ~ 50% of the time = average 3d6+12 or ~ 22 DPR, vs Two-Weapon Fighting Ranger : 4d6+8 every round = 22 DPR, vs Two-Weapon Fighting Barbarian : 2d6 +12 every round = 19 DPR, vs PAM Fighter (assuming 1 Action Surge per 3 Flurry of Blows + fighting Style) ~ 1d10+4+1d4+4+0.5/3*(1d10+4) ~ 16 DPR, or vs a Rogue with Adv + Sneak attack : (1d8+2d6+4)*1.3 (for increased chance to hit) = 20 DPR
This seems pretty fair to me. Flurry giving two extra attacks is almost a necessity to keep monk damage on par once you get beyond Tier 1, and Flurry could always be moved to 3rd or 4th level feature if it feels like too much at level 2.
Tavern Brawler already allows weapons to count as unarmed strikes. So, fiddling with the wording for something similar for the monk isn't hard. Nor including the rest of your body. Plus, if you're really going to question if a fist brawler has a free hand...
The Fighter's gimmick is having lots of Extra Attacks. Nothing requires them to use weapons; they just tended to be better. But a disarmed fighter still has lots of attacks with any part of their body.
The Monk's gimmick, however, was to try and land Stunning Strikes. They were expected to use their Bonus Action for a wide variety of things, not just Flurry of Blows. And I'm opposed to requiring Flurry to keep up with damage, especially if front loaded. Variety and flexibility is a monk's hallmark, not just lots of attacks.
EDIT - And yeah, lots of requirements to use Unarmed, which was dumb and I want that eliminated. Especially for kensei
Tavern Brawler already allows weapons to count as unarmed strikes. So, fiddling with the wording for something similar for the monk isn't hard. Nor including the rest of your body. Plus, if you're really going to question if a fist brawler has a free hand...
The Fighter's gimmick is having lots of Extra Attacks. Nothing requires them to use weapons; they just tended to be better. But a disarmed fighter still has lots of attacks with any part of their body.
The Monk's gimmick, however, was to try and land Stunning Strikes. They were expected to use their Bonus Action for a wide variety of things, not just Flurry of Blows. And I'm opposed to requiring Flurry to keep up with damage, especially if front loaded. Variety and flexibility is a monk's hallmark, not just lots of attacks.
I completely disagree, fighter (prior to Tasha's) was utterly useless at unarmed fighting and even post-Tasha's is bad at it. Fighter doesn't get any additional attacks beyond other martials until level 11! Almost all of modules end either before or within 3 levels of that so in practice Fighters almost never see their extra attacks. However their extra Feats start coming on line at level 6 which makes them active for ~ 50% of a typical game. Action Surge is not built upon by any subclass feature, and doesn't scale at all until level 18 thus I don't know why you think it is their core class feature. Compare to Monks where ki scales every level, and Flurry of Blows is built upon by half their subclasses.
Stunning Strike is more akin to Action Surge -> no subclass builds upon it. It does scale in uses but not a lot because the chance of monsters to save from it also scales up by level so the net effect of number of Stuns achieved per round of combat stays relatively stable. Stunning Strike is a great feature and I hope it stays with minimal nerfs in One D&D but it is not and should not be the be all and end all of monk. Monk is great because of its versatility to perform strategic strikes in combat, this might be running to the back lines and stunning enemy casters, it might be tanking a swarm of minions, or it might be hit & running focusing on damage.
Giving two extra attacks with Flurry of Blows can help with damage scaling of monks since it scales with ki availability, and it pretty close powerwise to Hunter's Mark + Two weapon fighting in the early game.
Disengage could be added to Step of the Wind, but IMO Step of the Wind in more interesting for it out-of-combat utility (e.g. jumping up onto a roof or chasing down a suspect) so the speed & jump bonus need to be in there. Plus BA Disengage might be better not tied to a feature that requires ki or could be interesting as a Subclass feature as it currently is with Drunken Master, and other subclasses getting BA teleport , or some kind of obscurement or imposing the Dazed condition instead of the Disengage for more variety in playstyle.
Ah, okay. I like your ideas for different subclass versions of evasion. But my current monk player uses his ki to Disengage with Step of the Wind more than half the other uses haha. It gives him the freedom to get where he needs without provoking attacks of opportunity. He is usually using it to get into a fight, not out of one. So he would be kind of sad to have to hit someone first before he could run closer to the enemy he wants, or the ally he needs to help. So I was thinking about it from that perspective.
I was curious about the two attacks from Flurry because it seems like it could scale to a lot of damage at higher levels. 5d12 + 25 damage, almost every round, could get pretty crazy. I don't know, I would have to run the numbers.
Overall cool ideas though. I think making it just clear rules is a good way to do it. Giving their unarmed attacks weapon tags could cause all kinds of odd interactions, so I think your method is probably best.
I was fascinated with the Monk when I saw it in ADnD 1st edition. I loved the idea and wanted to play one immediately. I grew up on King Fu and Wuxia movies and couldn't wait.
To me, the monk identity has always been about a few things. They can fight unarmed and unarmored, just as well as a Fighter with a sword and plate armor. Maybe not the same way, with the same raw damage, but they can contribute to the fight just as well. They have high mobility, doing things the Fighter can't to get around a battlefield or map. They can fall great distances and land gracefully. They can deflect attacks with their bare hands. They can strike weak points to stun or kill enemies. They use a special power (Ki) that no one else does. Their meditation and clear mind let them use that power to do superhuman things in a unique way from spellcasters.
As long as the monk retains those qualities, I'm happy. I'm open to new inspirations and new ways to play the class. I just want the original theme to stay relevant. For example, it always bothered me that the 5e monk was better off using weapons at level 1. That's why I changed the martial arts dice to 1d6 at the start. Because a level 1 monk should be able to punch and kick without losing out to the mechanical advantages of the same swords everyone else has.
So the idea is to instead make TWF completely useless for the monk by causing it to conflict with Martial Arts, again?
Why? And why isn't every fighter or rogue or ranger also "forced" into going for three attacks over two by the new TWF?
Please do not contact or message me.
Which falls into the making a play style so good you have to do it or you are nerfing yourself. I’m sure they are looking to fix this. We won’t know for sure until the warrior playtest, but I don’t see them leaving martial arts as is.
Fighters and Rangers have other viable weapon options. They can trade attacks for higher damage with bigger weapons, fighting styles for those weapons, and feats. Monks can't because they can't use those weapons.
I might agree that two weapon fighting is pretty much all a Rogue should do in melee at this point. Which kinda sucks.
Really it's so good that most Rangers probably will too.
I don't think Monks should be forced to not use two weapons either. I wish all of the monk weapons were viable. And I wish Rogues had more options too. Every build using the same weapons is boring. I just don't know what the solution is until we see the Warriors UA and other weapon properties.
In 5E, a level 1 monk has a base damage of quarterstaff + unarmed strike of 3+1d8+3+1d4 = 13.
For 1DND is there anything wrong with simply "Your unarmed strikes are light weapons. Light monk weapons always add your Ability Modifier to the attack’s damage." and starting the martial arts dice at d6? That is the simplest rules to allow fists to compare to two short swords. That gives damage at level 1 of 2*(3+d6)=13. Sadly quarterstaff + kick would no longer be possible as quarterstaff is not light.
When the Martial Arts die increases, there should also be an accuracy boost to unarmed strikes. In 5E, it is feasible to have a +3 weapon in the later tiers and be forced to use it alongside a +0 unarmed strike. At level 5 or 6, unarmed strikes could have a +1 bonus to hit, at level 11 a +2 bonus, and level 17 a +3 bonus.
Flurry of blows could simply be "Once per turn when you make an attack with a light monk weapon, you may make 2 attacks instead. " Then it can work on reactions too. Note any changes to Flurry of Blows or the Martial Arts Die can affect Way of Mercy. Thus, I suspect Way of Mercy could be 1 of the subclasses that gets rewritten. Way of Shadow is the least likely to need a rewrite, but the Ninja image is too iconic to leave out.
Quarterstaff would be viable again if instead of "unarmed strikes gain the light property" it instead read "unarmed strikes and monk weapons gain the light property".
That could work. The question would be if they all count as a melee weapon attack with the light property? Or would monk weapons count as weapon attacks but unarmed attacks not? 'These fists are deadly weapons' sounds reasonable for Monks. But it shifts a lot of effects around from other things. They would gain uses for some abilities and lose a lot of unarmed synergies. So there would have to be some clarification. But I like the basic idea. It's simple and clean, if it's made clear enough.
Is this not the obvious solution?
Martial Arts
Monk weapons include unarmed strikes and simple weapons that lack the Two-Handed and Heavy Property. You can use your Dexterity or Strength for attack and damage rolls made with unarmed strikes and monk weapons. When you take the Attack action to make attacks with a monk weapon or an unarmed strike, you can make one additional attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon with the Light property as part of that action. You add your ability modifier to the damage of this additional attack.
Damage die: Level 1-4 = 1d6, 5-8 = 1d8, 9-12 = 1d10, 13+ = 1d12
Flurry of blows
You can expend 1 ki and use your bonus action to make two unarmed strikes.
Patient Defense
You can expend 1 ki to take the Dodge action as a bonus action.
Step of the Wind
You can expend 1 ki to double your movement speed and triple your jump distance until the end of your turn.
Unarmoured Movement:
Your movement speed increases by 10 ft.
You can Dash as a bonus action.
You can use Dexterity (Acrobatics) to determine the distance you can Jump.
Kensei Weapons
You gain proficiency with martial weapons, any of these weapons count as monk weapons for you.
Martial Mastery
11th level Monk Feature
You gain +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls using unarmed strikes or monk weapons that do not already have a bonus to attack and damage rolls.
PS One D&D is just as bad as 5e for optimal build diversity. PAM + GWM and/or Two-weapon-fighting are far superior to all other melee builds and a one level dip into Ranger is practically a must for any weapon user. Plus dual-wielding hand-crossbows remains the superior ranged build.
Other martials have other options. Great weapons, polearms, shields, ranged weapons. Monks are built around unarmed combat - as they should be. Everything else is secondary, because unarmed combat is the reason behind monk class existing in the first place. If you want to fight with weapons, you have literaly any other class at your disposal, even wizard can go melee as bladesinger. But unarmed fighting? Only monk. So first, WotC must make unarmed combat a completely viable, competitive alternative to dual wielding and GWM. Then, think how to adapt additional fighting styles to monk.
I swear, it sometimes feels like some people are actively hating martial artists and strive to make this fantasy's practical implementation inferior to other playstyles for reasons beyond my understanding. Why bother making unarmored fighting viable, just give them armor. Why bother making martial arts competitive, just give them weapons. Why bother making martial artist an efficient playstyle, just play a reflavored fighter. Just... why? Is it because making monks just like every other martial is an easier way out? Is it because designing a class that works differently so unimaginable?
That looks pretty good overall. I do have some questions.
What was your thinking for giving two extra attacks with Flurry of Blows? Just the resource expenditure?
Why no more Disengage with Step of the Wind?
Also I totally agree about the post script. I'm really concerned about the Ranger dip and homogenization all around. I thought there was a weird thing with two hand crossbows now where you couldn't actually load them though.
Giving two extra attacks with Flurry of Blows can help with damage scaling of monks since it scales with ki availability, and it pretty close powerwise to Hunter's Mark + Two weapon fighting in the early game.
Disengage could be added to Step of the Wind, but IMO Step of the Wind in more interesting for it out-of-combat utility (e.g. jumping up onto a roof or chasing down a suspect) so the speed & jump bonus need to be in there. Plus BA Disengage might be better not tied to a feature that requires ki or could be interesting as a Subclass feature as it currently is with Drunken Master, and other subclasses getting BA teleport , or some kind of obscurement or imposing the Dazed condition instead of the Disengage for more variety in playstyle.
E.g.
Shadow Monk : 3rd level feature - Cloak of Darkness : As a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki to draw the shadows around you making yourself heavily obscured by magical darkness until the end of your turn. You can see through this obscurement.
Open Hand Monk: 3rd level feature - Stagger : When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike you can expend its reaction.
Drunken Master : 3rd level feature - Tipsy Sway : you can Disengage as a bonus action on your turn, when you use your Flurry of Blows you also gain the benefits of a Disengage.
Sun Soul : 3rd level feature - Blinding Light : you can use 1 ki and a bonus action to cause yourself to glow with bright light until the end of your turn, creatures within 5 ft of you are considered blinded while the light is shining.
4 Elements : 3rd level feature - Elemental Thrust : When you make an unarmed strike you can summon the elements around you to move you up to 5ft in a direction of your choice immediately before or after your attack. You can use this ability once per turn.
If monks get fighting styles I’m realizing some of my complaints go out the window. They just need access to TWF and dueling for those who prefer blade over fist, Blind fighting for those planning to go Shadow, unarmed fighting for those who can’t wait for the d8 strikes, and Archery and throw weapon fighting for those who prefer to use monk mobility to kite.
While I hope for far more this could be acceptable
No, the idea is to have the monk work seamlessly with it such that they they can swap between weapons, fists or whatever, based on what they want as needed or as they choose to specialize. With no particular style being absolutely better than any of the others.
Like, I know some people here have a problem with the unarmed, unarmored shaolin warrior monk archetype, and I agree that variations from that should be possible. However, the shaolin warrior monk archetype IS the iconic style - I will argue that's exactly the trope that the Open Hand subclass, the basic, simple subclass option, is supposed to embody. So, we need to have fists and robes be roughly equal to swords and mail. Not have one be clearly superior to the other. And to not force the monk to use fists even when they want to use swords (or whatever).
We know that Fighting Styles are currently restricted to Warrior group. So, that implies that Monks and Barbarians will likely have access to those feats as a bonus level 1 or 2 feature, just like Fighter, Paladin and Ranger do. So, if Monks allow their fists to do d6 damage and have the Light, Finesse property, and get a Fighting Style at level 1... this will allow them to fight with short swords or fists and be equal.
And you have to remember that short swords are SIMPLE Weapons now, not Martial. With the implication that Martial Weapons are going to be better than short swords. And monks, as Warriors, will have access to Martial Weapons. Thus, I feel like establishing fists as equal to short swords is good baseline for the default class, with the options to specialize through feats like Tavern Brawler and and free Fighting Styles pick.
Personally, I wouldn't say its the obvious solution - I have a different "obvious" one, though we are on the same track. I would just turn monk fists into weapons and give them Light and Finesse properties and let them work that way instead of making them as a special exception. Then give them an option for Fighting Styles to customize how they want to monk about, letting them have access to a wider range of options. Though all that is just quibbling over which mechanics are better to represent the same ideas.
Flurry of Blows having two attacks in tier 1 is a bit excessive, imho, and I'm not sure if we want to go that route. That steps a lot on the Fighter's gimick of lots of Extra Attacks. I'd probably keep the restriction against Heavy weapons counting as monk weapons too.
I'm kind of hoping that the subclasses will work by modifying things like... like having the Shadow Monk teleport work via modifying how Step of the Wind works. Open Hand modifying Flurry of Blows. Etc. I love subclasses that modify core class abilities to make them awesome.
Ye. This would be good.
[facepalm] I was so focused on white room damage that I completely forgot about the changes to Shove and Grapple. As a reminder:
On a hit, your Unarmed Strike causes one of the following effects of your choice:
Damage. The target takes Bludgeoning Damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target is Grappled, and the grapple’s escape DC equals 8 + your Strength modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one Size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab the target.
Shove. You either push the target 5 feet away or knock the target Prone. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one Size larger than you.
This gives an alternative solution
This makes monks unique from a TWF Fighter or Ranger. A single greatclub attack deals 3+1d10=8.5. Two shortswords (or shortsword+unarmed strike) deal 3+2d6=10. Shortsword+Shove deals 3+2d6=10 plus the effect. Shove+Grapple deals 2d6=7 plus both effects (prone and can't stand up). Less damage than 5E, but more effects.
Here is the tricky question. Is Shoving enemies 5 ft or prone sufficient for our desire for a Disengage? Some enemies have 10 ft reach, but could be knocked prone for disadvantage on the Opportunity Attack. Some enemies are immune to prone, but may still be pushed. That leaves trouble when attacking huge creatures, but perhaps that is acceptable?
Speculation: I expect Ranger's Hunter's Mark to get the concentration-free trait at a later level (such as level 5) instead of level 1. That would ease the pressure on Tier 1 and remove the obvious multiclass dip.
The problem with turning fists into weapons is that you cannot use the Dueling Fighting Style because you are always wielding two weapons. Plus it then gets very confusing about whether the monk has a "free hand" to grapple with or with which to cast spells and weirdness in "drawing and stowing" rules - plus it limits the monk to making attacks with their fists where as RAW unarmed strikes include: kicks, head butts, chest slams, elbowing, shoulder bash etc... If your fantasy is a monk that uses spinning kicks to hit enemies then saying "your fists becomes weapons ..." does not support that fantasy. It also makes it more annoying for people reading the book because they have to go look up two additional terms that are in a completely different section to figure out how their base class ability works. So IMO it is easier to just write it out plainly - there is enough confusing already about the overlap between unarmed strike, weapon attack, and attack with a weapon.
The Fighter's gimmick is having lots of ASIs / Feats plus lots of weapon attacks (which benefit from those feats), where as the monk has always been the class with the most total attacks but half of them are restricted to being unarmed strikes. Two attacks with Flurry of Blows in Tier 1 is: 4d6+16 total on a Flurry of Blows round and 2d6+8 on a non-Flurry round at tier 1 you have 4 ki or fewer so you cannot Flurry every round - IME you can Flurry ~ 50% of the time = average 3d6+12 or ~ 22 DPR, vs Two-Weapon Fighting Ranger : 4d6+8 every round = 22 DPR, vs Two-Weapon Fighting Barbarian : 2d6 +12 every round = 19 DPR, vs PAM Fighter (assuming 1 Action Surge per 3 Flurry of Blows + fighting Style) ~ 1d10+4+1d4+4+0.5/3*(1d10+4) ~ 16 DPR, or vs a Rogue with Adv + Sneak attack : (1d8+2d6+4)*1.3 (for increased chance to hit) = 20 DPR
This seems pretty fair to me. Flurry giving two extra attacks is almost a necessity to keep monk damage on par once you get beyond Tier 1, and Flurry could always be moved to 3rd or 4th level feature if it feels like too much at level 2.
Tavern Brawler already allows weapons to count as unarmed strikes. So, fiddling with the wording for something similar for the monk isn't hard. Nor including the rest of your body. Plus, if you're really going to question if a fist brawler has a free hand...
The Fighter's gimmick is having lots of Extra Attacks. Nothing requires them to use weapons; they just tended to be better. But a disarmed fighter still has lots of attacks with any part of their body.
The Monk's gimmick, however, was to try and land Stunning Strikes. They were expected to use their Bonus Action for a wide variety of things, not just Flurry of Blows. And I'm opposed to requiring Flurry to keep up with damage, especially if front loaded. Variety and flexibility is a monk's hallmark, not just lots of attacks.
EDIT - And yeah, lots of requirements to use Unarmed, which was dumb and I want that eliminated. Especially for kensei
I completely disagree, fighter (prior to Tasha's) was utterly useless at unarmed fighting and even post-Tasha's is bad at it. Fighter doesn't get any additional attacks beyond other martials until level 11! Almost all of modules end either before or within 3 levels of that so in practice Fighters almost never see their extra attacks. However their extra Feats start coming on line at level 6 which makes them active for ~ 50% of a typical game. Action Surge is not built upon by any subclass feature, and doesn't scale at all until level 18 thus I don't know why you think it is their core class feature. Compare to Monks where ki scales every level, and Flurry of Blows is built upon by half their subclasses.
Stunning Strike is more akin to Action Surge -> no subclass builds upon it. It does scale in uses but not a lot because the chance of monsters to save from it also scales up by level so the net effect of number of Stuns achieved per round of combat stays relatively stable. Stunning Strike is a great feature and I hope it stays with minimal nerfs in One D&D but it is not and should not be the be all and end all of monk. Monk is great because of its versatility to perform strategic strikes in combat, this might be running to the back lines and stunning enemy casters, it might be tanking a swarm of minions, or it might be hit & running focusing on damage.
Ah, okay. I like your ideas for different subclass versions of evasion. But my current monk player uses his ki to Disengage with Step of the Wind more than half the other uses haha. It gives him the freedom to get where he needs without provoking attacks of opportunity. He is usually using it to get into a fight, not out of one. So he would be kind of sad to have to hit someone first before he could run closer to the enemy he wants, or the ally he needs to help. So I was thinking about it from that perspective.
I was curious about the two attacks from Flurry because it seems like it could scale to a lot of damage at higher levels. 5d12 + 25 damage, almost every round, could get pretty crazy. I don't know, I would have to run the numbers.
Overall cool ideas though. I think making it just clear rules is a good way to do it. Giving their unarmed attacks weapon tags could cause all kinds of odd interactions, so I think your method is probably best.
okay. Agree to disagree then it is
I was fascinated with the Monk when I saw it in ADnD 1st edition. I loved the idea and wanted to play one immediately. I grew up on King Fu and Wuxia movies and couldn't wait.
To me, the monk identity has always been about a few things. They can fight unarmed and unarmored, just as well as a Fighter with a sword and plate armor. Maybe not the same way, with the same raw damage, but they can contribute to the fight just as well. They have high mobility, doing things the Fighter can't to get around a battlefield or map. They can fall great distances and land gracefully. They can deflect attacks with their bare hands. They can strike weak points to stun or kill enemies. They use a special power (Ki) that no one else does. Their meditation and clear mind let them use that power to do superhuman things in a unique way from spellcasters.
As long as the monk retains those qualities, I'm happy. I'm open to new inspirations and new ways to play the class. I just want the original theme to stay relevant. For example, it always bothered me that the 5e monk was better off using weapons at level 1. That's why I changed the martial arts dice to 1d6 at the start. Because a level 1 monk should be able to punch and kick without losing out to the mechanical advantages of the same swords everyone else has.