That's the thing. Why should monks have to give up every last single ASI they have on raw stats to do nothing but keep up with what a fighter or a barbarian gets for free-ninety-nine? What is the actual benefit of Unarmored Defense? The only benefits the ability has - retaining AC when your shit is stolen and allowing easier encumbrance - are both things that everybody screams at DMs for doing. Everybody continually shits on encumbrance at all times, and any time a DM takes away their players' gear you get a fresh "MY DM SCREWED ME AND I HATE IT" thread in GD. Elsewise UAD only lets you get something gear gives you for free by sinking every last irreplaceable ASI you've got into stats. Did you want to take Crusher and get some extra control on all those unarmed attacks? NOPE - you can't take feats or your AC sucks donkey rocks forever. And given your piss-low health for a frontliner and your lack of protectives, you need all the UAD you can get. It's why monks only ever really feel good with Heroic stat rolls or with an enhanced progression system that lets them get both stats and feats - and even then they're hard to make feel as good in play as a paladin. Who, might I ask, gets three times the class features of the monk and also armor.
So a monk focusing on Dex/Wis with point buy can start with AC 16. Bump it to AC 17 at level 4, AC 18 at level 8, AC 19 at level 12 and AC 20 at level 16 using point buy with stats 10, 16 (14 +2 racial, or background for 1D&D), 14, 10, 16 (15 +1), 8. You could take vHuman or Custom Lineage and get there a little quicker putting 15+2 in Dex and taking a half feat to start with an 18 Dex at level 1. Can't do that with 1D&D from what we've seen so far. So I will assume the AC progression at the beginning.
An armored monk can get an AC of 16 at level 1 with Scale mail. 17 with Half plate whenever they can afford it. They only need Dex 14 for that so they could start with 16, 14, 12, 8, 16, 8 if they wanted to keep Wis up for Ki DC's or could flip Con and Wis scores for 16, 14, 16, 8, 12, 8 and be a Str based monk that doesn't worry too much about their save DC (Kensei monk has no abilities that require targets make any save, for example). Magic armor would be needed to get above AC 17 (which the UAD monk can bypass at level 8).
The big difference is two ASI's for Dex and two ASI's for Wis are needed to reach that AC 20 at level 16 for UAD monk while the armored monk could focus two ASI's on Str to max at 20 and the other two on Feats or ASI to Con or Wis, if they chose. They would be at the whim of the DM for magic armor to reach an AC of 20.
And I am not arguing that 1D&D monk should not have armor. I just don't think it is likely to happen. But I could be completely wrong. And I don't know if the armored monk would become the default "option of choice" because it is too advantageous over UAD. There isplenty of "magic stuff", besides armor, that monks can use. But I could be wrong there as well.
This is why I'm excited to see the next UA to get a better idea of where WotC is heading. I'm hoping it is the warrior group so we can see what monks, as well as fighters and barbarians will look like for playtesting.
Right. This is what I was trying to say. An armored monk can get an AC 17 when they earn some money, and then they stall there without magic loot. If WotC does make Dexterity work for everything in an Unarmed Strike for Monks, they won't need Strength for anything. And they can get the same AC quickly while also gaining all of the other benefits of a Dexterity score over 14 - increased Initiative, attack bonuses, no penalty on Stealth from the armor, more valuable saves. Medium Armor would not break this class (assuming one change to the Monk's martial arts feature.) Armor would rarely ever be useful. But the option could be there. This is one of the reasons I also look forward to the Warrior UA more than any of them.
Note that with point buy and the UA character creation process, you can get a:
17 Dexterity
16 Wisdom
14 Constitution
Then 10, 8, and 8 for the other ability scores.
The reason you want to do this is so you can take a Feat at level 4. So you get the advantage of the feat, and get an ability up to 18 at the same time. A 17 in your primary stat is really the best way to build pretty much any character now.
So a level 14 Monk would have an Unarmored Defense AC of 17 without sacrificing anything.
Again, assuming that there won't be any need for Strength anymore. Which seems like the obvious direction for them to go. I can't imagine why they wouldn't when Unarmed Strike was spelled out so clearly.
Compromise: Monks get proficiency in light armor by default. Their abilities only stop when they put on heavy armor or shields, so if they gain proficiency with medium armor through any means then they can wear it without penalty (but not so with heavy). It makes sense and it's balanced. If a Monk has the training necessary to wear medium armor, it makes sense they would have the training to use martial arts in it.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Archery - The first time on your turn that you hit a creature with an attack with a ranged weapon, add an extra 1d6 to the damage roll.
Finesse - when you make a melee attack with a weapon using your Dexterity, you add both your Dexterity and Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to the damage dealt by that weapon.
Two-Weapon Fighting - you can use any one-handed weapons for two-weapon fighting, and you add your ability modifier to attacks made with the off-hand weapon. The off-hand attack is made as part of the Attack action.
Two-Handed - when you are holding a melee weapon in two hands, you add both your Strength and your Dexterity modifier (minimum 0) to the damage dealt by that weapon.
Defensive - While wearing armour you gain +1 bonus to your AC
Unarmed - You can use either your Strength or Dexterity to make unarmed strikes, and they deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
(1st level) Unarmoured Defence
While you aren’t wearing armour, your Armour Class equals 10 + Dex modifier + Wis modifier
(2nd level) Fast Movement
While you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armour or carrying a shield, your walking speed is increased by 15 ft and you can take the Dash action as a bonus action on your turn.
(2nd level) Ki-Focus
You have ki points equal to your level in this class. You can spend one ki point as a bonus action to give yourself advantage on the next attack roll, or ability check you make. You regain all ki points when you finish a short or long rest.
(3rd level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Weapon Mastery: Choose one weapon type, you gain a +2 to attack rolls using that type of weapon. You can use Strength or Dexterity to wield any weapon that doesn’t have the Heavy property.
Unarmed Specialist - Martial Arts: If you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 1 ki to expend the target’s reaction.
Tactician - Wise Advice: When another creature you can see within 30 ft of you makes an ability check or attack roll, you can use your reaction to spend one ki point to give that creature advantage or disadvantage on the roll.
Arcanist - Ki-Spells : You can channel arcane power with your ki. As an action you can spend a number of ki up to your proficiency bonus to target a number of creatures equal to the number of ki spent with a magical effect. Each target must be within 60 ft of you, and makes a Dexterity saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisdom modifier + proficiency bonus. On a failure you cause one of the following effects:
The creature is knocked prone.
The creature is pushed up to 10 ft in a horizontal direction of your choice.
The creature takes 2d6 force damage.
(4th level) ASI
(5th level) Extra Attack
(5th level) Meditation
You can spend 10 minutes meditating to gain the benefits of a short rest. You reduce your levels of exhaustion by 1 when you finish a short rest.
(6th level) ASI
(6th level) Perfect Landing
When you fall, you can use your reaction to reduce the fall damage you take by 5 + your Martial Artist Level, and land on your feet.
(7th level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Deflect Missiles: When you are hit by a ranged attack you can use your reaction to attempt to deflect the attack. Roll 1d10 and add your level, you reduce the damage taken by the total rolled.
Unarmed Specialist - Ki-empowered strikes: Your Unarmed Strikes are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances. When you hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend 1 ki to do one of the following:
Push the target 10 ft away from you
Grapple the target
Deal additional damage to it equal to your proficiency bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.
You can use this ability only once per turn.
Tactician - Stunning Strike:When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can spend 1 ki to force it to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failure, it is stunned until the end of its turn. On a success, it is unable to make reactions and its movement speed is halved until the start of its turn. You can use this feature only once per turn.
Arcanist - Advanced Ki-Spells : when you use your Ki-Spells feature you can choose to force the targets to make a Wisdom saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisd+prof. On a failure you cause one of the following effects (they can repeat the save at the end of each of their turns ending the effect on a success):
The creature is frightened of you.
The creature is charmed by you. (ends if you deal damage to the creature)
The creature takes 8d6 psychic damage.
(8th level) ASI
(9th level) Resilient
You gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws. When you finish a short rest, you gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus.
(10th level) Subclass Feature Weapon Master - Weapon bond : as a bonus action you spend 1-3 ki to bind one weapon you are holding to yourself. The weapon gains a +1-3 bonus to attacks and damage equal to the number of ki spent. If the weapon already has a similar bonus this effect replaces that bonus. In addition, the weapon gains the thrown property with a range of 40/60ft and magically returns to your hand immediately after striking something.
Unarmed Specialist - Deflect Attack: While you are unarmed, when you are targeted by an attack you can use your reaction to increase your AC by 5 against that attack. If the attack still hits you can spend ki points to reduce the damage you take by 10 for each ki point spent.
Tactician - Trained Mind: You gain proficiency in Wisdom and Intelligence saving throws.
Arcanist - Banishment : when you use your Ki-Spells feature you can choose to force the targets to make a Charisma saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisd+prof, on a failure they are banished to a harmless other plane of existence until the start of your next turn.
(11th level) Extra Attack
You make 3 attacks when you take the Attack action.
(12th level) ASI
(13th level) Evasion
(14th level) ASI
(15th level) Subclass Feature Weapon Master - Rapid Strike: When you take the Attack action, you can spend 1 ki to make one additional attack as part of that action.
Unarmed Specialist - Flurry: When you would make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, you can instead make two unarmed strikes.
Tactician - Weaken: When a creature within 60 ft of you that you can see makes a saving throw you can use your reaction to spend 3 ki to grant it advantage or disadvantage on that save.
Arcanist - Paralysis : when you use your Ki-Spells feature you can choose to force the targets to make a Constitution saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisd+prof, on a failure they are paralyzed until the end of your next turn.
(16th level) ASI
(17th level) Recentre
You can take the Dodge action as a bonus action. When you do so you can cause one of the following conditions to end on yourself: frightened, charmed, poisoned, blinded.
(18th level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Balance : While holding a weapon you have advantage on Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom saving throws.
Unarmed Specialist - Resilient Body: As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki to regain hit points equal to half of your hit point maximum.
Tactician - Enact Plan: You can spend 5 ki to take a second Action on your turn.
Arcanist - Irresistible : when you use your Ki-Spells feature and a creature succeeds on the saving throw, you can turn that success into a failure. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you take a short or long rest.
(19th level) ASI
(20th level) Kung Fu
You gain +4 bonus to your Wisdom and Dexterity and the maximum of these ability scores increases to 24.
Kam, how does allowing the option of armor, a'la UAD (Barbarian), hurt? You're giving us the same fight all the Simple Fighter Crowd people are giving us in the other thread - "this can't happen because it'd let other people do a thing I don't want to do myself." Allowing both options means robes fans can do robes and people who want to wear dragonscale mail on their monk can do that, too. Why protest?
Like I already said, I'm not against it - tuck it into a subclass that revolves around armor and weapons and has supporting mechanics that make it all work, and you're good. It's the same reason why I don't want fighters go have spellcasting as a base class feature, or why I don't want wizards to have extra attack and martial weapon proficiency. Subclasses? Sure, knock yourself out. But imagine me arguing with foam at mouth that monks MUST HAVE DIVINE SPELLCASTING FROM LEVEL 1 AND IF YOU'RE AGAINST IT YOU'RE JUST MEAN AND DON'T WANT ANYONE TO HAVE FUN. There's base stuff that defines class identity. Theme matters. I want fighter to be more complex, have more identity, because fighter lacks both, terribly, it's an empty class that gets leftovers from scrapped concepts as subclasses (Psi Warrior, Rune Knight), and it's outright humiliating. Monk, on another hand, has a very strong identity that I'd rather not mess with, the class just needs mechanical adjustments to function properly. And more stuff to do, of course.
Barbarians wearing armor is natural. Vikings, Mongols, and most tribes north of Rome cared enough to wear some protection. Conan the Barbarian wore armor in Robert Howard's novels. And mechanically, this makes sense, too, because to maximize the gain from Unarmored Defense, the barbarian would have to maximize Dex, which is pretty unnatural for a barbarian, since their class features specifically work only with Str-based attacks and checks. Dex barbs don't exist - a shame, by the way, because I'd really like a swift Dex-based Mongol barbarian subclass.
But suppose you allow medium armor to monks. Best you can start with is scale mail, 14 AC +2 Dex bonus, no bonus from Wis. That leaves you at 16 AC with 14 Dex (because the excess doesn't give you any protection anyway). Theoretically, you'd keep your Dex that low to prioritize Wis, so you'll start with 16 Wis and pump it to 18 by level 4, which means that this scale mail makes no difference now, you get the same AC naked. But then you continue growing and you end up with 20 AC from 20 Dex and 20 Wis - which is the same as half plate +3, the best medium armor in terms of protection. The argument that someone might want a Str monk also doesn't hold ground because Martial Arts feature essentially transfers all benefits of Str into Dex. So, even letting monk use medium armor essentially solves nothing. Messing with the base image of a monk, and for what? A gimmicky specific build that fluctuates between being 1, maybe 2 AC ahead, and being at the same spot as the regular monk. What's the point?
What truly needs to be done is a fix to monks' MADness. The way it is now, a monk has no choice but to take no feats and just race to 20/20 in Dex and Wis through ASI to maintain efficiency. Paladin and Ranger are also MAD, but they have defensive and buff options with their spellcasting, so they can essentially pretend they're not MAD at all most of the time, increasing Cha as a paladin feels like a bonus rather than absolute necessity. Monk's MADness is the worst of all cases. Their features are mostly offensive, you rely on your Ki save DC. This is what has to be fixed. Armor does nothing to address this issue. Want a simple solution? Let Ki save DC be determined by Dex, +[PB] AC when unarmored, and d10 HP. Boom, easy fix. Though not an elegant one, as it leaves Wis overboard. But it frees up feat slots for interesting stuff and perhaps some Con by the way, which is useful for a member of warrior group (the rest of which is SAD, BTW). Does it leave space for medium armor? Meeehh... Only if you design a feature that lets you break the rules and make full use of your Dex while in medium armor - which definitely is a bit too OP to give at level 1.
But imagine me arguing with foam at mouth that monks MUST HAVE DIVINE SPELLCASTING FROM LEVEL 1 AND IF YOU'RE AGAINST IT YOU'RE JUST MEAN AND DON'T WANT ANYONE TO HAVE FUN.
This one makes me laugh for two reasons.
1) Giving a class spellcasting of any kind would affect all builds. Having a choice between Armor or No Armor is in no way equivalent.
2) Monk noun : A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
Having Divine spellcasting makes more sense for a Monk than being a master of martial arts.
1) Giving a class spellcasting of any kind would affect all builds. Having a choice between Armor or No Armor is in no way equivalent.
2) Monk noun : A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
1) Well you can just choose not to use it, duh.
2) This is the reason behind this example. You can shove divine spellcasting into monk because christian monks pray to god, and they count as monks, right? It will solve a lot of problems, open up possibilities and options, and let people play however they want, so obviously anyone who's against it is wrong. But will it still be the same class? Nope.
Having Divine spellcasting makes more sense for a Monk than being a master of martial arts.
1) Giving a class spellcasting of any kind would affect all builds. Having a choice between Armor or No Armor is in no way equivalent.
2) Monk noun : A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
1) Well you can just choose not to use it, duh.
2) This is the reason behind this example. You can shove divine spellcasting into monk because christian monks pray to god, and they count as monks, right? It will solve a lot of problems, open up possibilities and options, and let people play however they want, so obviously anyone who's against it is wrong. But will it still be the same class? Nope.
Having Divine spellcasting makes more sense for a Monk than being a master of martial arts.
So play paladin or cleric.
Monasticism, or the practice of living as a monk, exists in several religions of the world, including Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.
Believe it or not, there is more than one religion in the world.
1) Giving a class spellcasting of any kind would affect all builds. Having a choice between Armor or No Armor is in no way equivalent.
2) Monk noun : A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
1) Well you can just choose not to use it, duh.
2) This is the reason behind this example. You can shove divine spellcasting into monk because christian monks pray to god, and they count as monks, right? It will solve a lot of problems, open up possibilities and options, and let people play however they want, so obviously anyone who's against it is wrong. But will it still be the same class? Nope.
Having Divine spellcasting makes more sense for a Monk than being a master of martial arts.
So play paladin or cleric.
Monasticism, or the practice of living as a monk, exists in several religions of the world, including Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.
Believe it or not, there is more than one religion in the world.
Woah there buddy, cool your horses. I think it's a bit of a stretch to take this quote and interpret as "Christianity is the one true religion." Why don't we all just maybe not.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Monasticism, or the practice of living as a monk, exists in several religions of the world, including Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.
Believe it or not, there is more than one religion in the world.
What prevents you from playing a Buddhist paladin then? Oath of Redemption is pretty fitting. Not to mention that some knightly orders of Europe were, in fact, warrior monks, like Hospitaliers or Templars.
Believe it or not, I once had an order of quasi-Islamic paladins (Oath of Vengeance) in my mohebrew setting, along with communist dwarves who called their paladins commissars (Oath of Conquest).
So, you actually might just have your vision of monk in the game already. It's paladin.
Monasticism, or the practice of living as a monk, exists in several religions of the world, including Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.
Believe it or not, there is more than one religion in the world.
What prevents you from playing a Buddhist paladin then? Oath of Redemption is pretty fitting. Not to mention that some knightly orders of Europe were, in fact, warrior monks, like Hospitaliers or Templars.
Believe it or not, I once had an order of quasi-Islamic paladins (Oath of Vengeance) in my mohebrew setting, along with communist dwarves who called their paladins commissars (Oath of Conquest).
So, you actually might just have your vision of monk in the game already. It's paladin.
You have completely missed the point.
I don't want to have divine casting monks.
I was pointing out that ALL monks are devoted to a religion, but not ALL monks study martial arts. Therefore monks as divine casters are more logical than as martial artists. That is why your example was humorous to me.
1) Giving a class spellcasting of any kind would affect all builds. Having a choice between Armor or No Armor is in no way equivalent.
2) Monk noun : A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
1) Well you can just choose not to use it, duh.
2) This is the reason behind this example. You can shove divine spellcasting into monk because christian monks pray to god, and they count as monks, right? It will solve a lot of problems, open up possibilities and options, and let people play however they want, so obviously anyone who's against it is wrong. But will it still be the same class? Nope.
Having Divine spellcasting makes more sense for a Monk than being a master of martial arts.
So play paladin or cleric.
Monasticism, or the practice of living as a monk, exists in several religions of the world, including Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.
Believe it or not, there is more than one religion in the world.
Woah there buddy, cool your horses. I think it's a bit of a stretch to take this quote and interpret as "Christianity is the one true religion." Why don't we all just maybe not.
You also missed the point. All monks are members of some religion. That is a core trait of being a monk.
I was pointing out that ALL monks are devoted to a religion, but not ALL monks study martial arts. Therefore monks as divine casters are more logical than as martial artists. That is why your example was humorous to me.
Yet here we are with monk class based on the popular image of Shaolin monks.
If I am being completely honest, I think that they should drop the name Monk all together, but I don't know what would be a better name for the class. Monk is used to for too many beliefs and practices to really match what the class does.
Also, most of the people that come to mind when you think about martial arts aren't Monks. Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Ip Man, Jet Li and Chuck Norris for example are(were) all highly skilled, yet none of them are(were) Monks. Most of the people from history that are said to have developed martial arts were not monks. Many were generals and at least one was a physician. A lot of people think of ninjas and martial arts together, but they weren't monks either. Of course you do have the Shaolin Monks, but they are a very small minority when it comes to those that train in martial arts so it seems strange to have an entire class dedicated to them.
Martial Artist is also far too vague to work, though it is the term most commonly used when describing things that the D&D Monk does. I don't think it would go over well though.
You also missed the point. All monks are members of some religion. That is a core trait of being a monk.
Not even every cleric has to be a member of some religion in DnD, much less the monk...
Which is even more of a reason to stop trying to force every D&D Monk into being a Shaolin Monk and be allowed to cover a broader range of ideals and playstyles. Not all Clerics in D&D worship a god, not all Monks in D&D are Shaolin style monks.
If I am being completely honest, I think that they should drop the name Monk all together, but I don't know what would be a better name for the class. Monk is used to for too many beliefs and practices to really match what the class does.
Also, most of the people that come to mind when you think about martial arts aren't Monks. Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Ip Man, Jet Li and Chuck Norris for example are(were) all highly skilled, yet none of them are(were) Monks. Most of the people from history that are said to have developed martial arts were not monks. Many were generals and at least one was a physician. A lot of people think of ninjas and martial arts together, but they weren't monks either. Of course you do have the Shaolin Monks, but they are a very small minority when it comes to those that train in martial arts so it seems strange to have an entire class dedicated to them.
Martial Artist is also far too vague to work, though it is the term most commonly used when describing things that the D&D Monk does. I don't think it would go over well though.
I don't see why monk should be dropped as a name. Sure, its real-world connotation is religious, but that doesn't mean the fantasy connotation has to be as well for them to be called monks. If warlocks, wizards, and sorcerers (all of which mean the same thing in real life) can be completely separate things, I don't see why monks have to stick to their name so much. Just like clerics (real-world members of a clergy) don't technically have to worship a god, wizards (male spellcasters) can be female, bards don't have to play any music at all, and rangers... don't have to be from Middle Earth. The "we call classes because these are the names of the classes even if they are factually incorrect" mindset is a rule, not an exception.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
If I am being completely honest, I think that they should drop the name Monk all together, but I don't know what would be a better name for the class. Monk is used to for too many beliefs and practices to really match what the class does.
Also, most of the people that come to mind when you think about martial arts aren't Monks. Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Ip Man, Jet Li and Chuck Norris for example are(were) all highly skilled, yet none of them are(were) Monks. Most of the people from history that are said to have developed martial arts were not monks. Many were generals and at least one was a physician. A lot of people think of ninjas and martial arts together, but they weren't monks either. Of course you do have the Shaolin Monks, but they are a very small minority when it comes to those that train in martial arts so it seems strange to have an entire class dedicated to them.
Martial Artist is also far too vague to work, though it is the term most commonly used when describing things that the D&D Monk does. I don't think it would go over well though.
But I think it's the core of the issue. There's other classes that fight with martial weapons or have a religious theme, yet TSR wanted a martial artist in DnD, and this very thing is the core of monk's design. Why call it monk? Well, how else do you call it? Shaolin monk is a trope that is indivisibly associated with eastern martial arts, so they went with it. They could've smeared it all over as subclasses, but they decided to make it a base class and unite all the subtropes under it, which I'm personally very happy about. One class, a martial artist at its core, can be a ninja, a pressure point doctor, a straw hat ronin, all of these eastern culture tropes bound together in one class. So far, it worked. Monk wasn't the best class across editions, but among other martials, it was okay. I don't think it's impossible to fix its issues in terms of raw power.
That's the thing. Why should monks have to give up every last single ASI they have on raw stats to do nothing but keep up with what a fighter or a barbarian gets for free-ninety-nine? What is the actual benefit of Unarmored Defense? The only benefits the ability has - retaining AC when your shit is stolen and allowing easier encumbrance - are both things that everybody screams at DMs for doing. Everybody continually shits on encumbrance at all times, and any time a DM takes away their players' gear you get a fresh "MY DM SCREWED ME AND I HATE IT" thread in GD. Elsewise UAD only lets you get something gear gives you for free by sinking every last irreplaceable ASI you've got into stats. Did you want to take Crusher and get some extra control on all those unarmed attacks? NOPE - you can't take feats or your AC sucks donkey rocks forever. And given your piss-low health for a frontliner and your lack of protectives, you need all the UAD you can get. It's why monks only ever really feel good with Heroic stat rolls or with an enhanced progression system that lets them get both stats and feats - and even then they're hard to make feel as good in play as a paladin. Who, might I ask, gets three times the class features of the monk and also armor.
With 5E, feats are an optional game mechanic, so basically, when designing the classes, everyone was expected to use their ASI’s for stat increases.
We now see that 1DD will have feats as part of everyday play and not optional. So that’s why I suggest keeping UAD, revise it so it keeps balanced with armor without sacrificing all you ASI’s. I’m fine if monks get some armor proficiency. It just has to be balanced so either play style is viable.
... The way it is now, a monk has no choice but to take no feats and just race to 20/20 in Dex and Wis through ASI to maintain efficiency. ...
And here we have the core of the issue.
Monk, as a class, does not offer players any choices. You will ALWAYS take 15 DX, 15 CN, and 15 WS with an 8 in your other three stats when building a monk. You will ALWAYS spend every single ASI you get on increasing those numbers. You will ALWAYS play exactly the same way as every other monk ever created, because all monks are forced to be 100% completely identical in all ways if they want to live.
Point me at one single serious martial artist that has an 8 Strength. One. One single one, that isn't an ancient aged master well beyond his prime who used to be drastically stronger in his youth - and even that guy's going to be much stronger for his age than anyone else. Point me at one single martial artist that's too weak to perform athletically or to grapple his foes. And yet everybody is perfectly fine with monks being 8 ST/IQ/CH weenies?
What if I want to make a Cobalt Soul monk because the cobalt expositors of Critical Role are among my favorite character ideas in all of D&D? Cobalt Soul monks highly value Intelligence and the strength of extensive knowledge...but because the monk has zero room whatsoever for anything but mainlining DX and WS like a pound-a-day coke addict, my Cobalt Expositor is required to have an 8 Intelligence despite that making no god damned sense for her.
Monks get no access to magic loot because everybody's always yelling at them to use no armor or weapons, and monk-exclusive items are weird, bad, and don't feel good to hand out or get because it's obvious the DM is just preassigning loot in an unfun and uncool way. Monks also get no access to any of the other tropes associated with martial artists, because they have to be Wise Zen Masters who are also apparently stupid, atrophied, and an *******.
This sucks. And it doesn't need to be this way. Fixing Unarmored Defense so monks can ******* survive with numbers lower than 20 in their 'core' stats is Step 1.
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That's the thing. Why should monks have to give up every last single ASI they have on raw stats to do nothing but keep up with what a fighter or a barbarian gets for free-ninety-nine? What is the actual benefit of Unarmored Defense? The only benefits the ability has - retaining AC when your shit is stolen and allowing easier encumbrance - are both things that everybody screams at DMs for doing. Everybody continually shits on encumbrance at all times, and any time a DM takes away their players' gear you get a fresh "MY DM SCREWED ME AND I HATE IT" thread in GD. Elsewise UAD only lets you get something gear gives you for free by sinking every last irreplaceable ASI you've got into stats. Did you want to take Crusher and get some extra control on all those unarmed attacks? NOPE - you can't take feats or your AC sucks donkey rocks forever. And given your piss-low health for a frontliner and your lack of protectives, you need all the UAD you can get. It's why monks only ever really feel good with Heroic stat rolls or with an enhanced progression system that lets them get both stats and feats - and even then they're hard to make feel as good in play as a paladin. Who, might I ask, gets three times the class features of the monk and also armor.
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Right. This is what I was trying to say. An armored monk can get an AC 17 when they earn some money, and then they stall there without magic loot. If WotC does make Dexterity work for everything in an Unarmed Strike for Monks, they won't need Strength for anything. And they can get the same AC quickly while also gaining all of the other benefits of a Dexterity score over 14 - increased Initiative, attack bonuses, no penalty on Stealth from the armor, more valuable saves. Medium Armor would not break this class (assuming one change to the Monk's martial arts feature.) Armor would rarely ever be useful. But the option could be there. This is one of the reasons I also look forward to the Warrior UA more than any of them.
Note that with point buy and the UA character creation process, you can get a:
17 Dexterity
16 Wisdom
14 Constitution
Then 10, 8, and 8 for the other ability scores.
The reason you want to do this is so you can take a Feat at level 4. So you get the advantage of the feat, and get an ability up to 18 at the same time. A 17 in your primary stat is really the best way to build pretty much any character now.
So a level 14 Monk would have an Unarmored Defense AC of 17 without sacrificing anything.
Again, assuming that there won't be any need for Strength anymore. Which seems like the obvious direction for them to go. I can't imagine why they wouldn't when Unarmed Strike was spelled out so clearly.
Compromise: Monks get proficiency in light armor by default. Their abilities only stop when they put on heavy armor or shields, so if they gain proficiency with medium armor through any means then they can wear it without penalty (but not so with heavy). It makes sense and it's balanced. If a Monk has the training necessary to wear medium armor, it makes sense they would have the training to use martial arts in it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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This is a reimagining of the Monk I wrote a while ago:
Martial Artist
Hit Die: d10
Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity
Skills: choose 3 from Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Insight, Perception, Medicine, Nature, History, Arcana
Tools: choose 2 from Calligrapher’s Supplies, Painter’s Tools, Brewer’s Tools, Jeweler’s Tools, Smith's Tools, Tinkerer’s Tools, Carpenter’s Tools
Weapons: Simple, Martial
Armour: Light, Medium
(1st level) Fighting Style
Choose one fighting style:
Archery - The first time on your turn that you hit a creature with an attack with a ranged weapon, add an extra 1d6 to the damage roll.
Finesse - when you make a melee attack with a weapon using your Dexterity, you add both your Dexterity and Wisdom modifier (minimum 0) to the damage dealt by that weapon.
Two-Weapon Fighting - you can use any one-handed weapons for two-weapon fighting, and you add your ability modifier to attacks made with the off-hand weapon. The off-hand attack is made as part of the Attack action.
Two-Handed - when you are holding a melee weapon in two hands, you add both your Strength and your Dexterity modifier (minimum 0) to the damage dealt by that weapon.
Defensive - While wearing armour you gain +1 bonus to your AC
Unarmed - You can use either your Strength or Dexterity to make unarmed strikes, and they deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage on a hit.
(1st level) Unarmoured Defence
While you aren’t wearing armour, your Armour Class equals 10 + Dex modifier + Wis modifier
(2nd level) Fast Movement
While you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armour or carrying a shield, your walking speed is increased by 15 ft and you can take the Dash action as a bonus action on your turn.
(2nd level) Ki-Focus
You have ki points equal to your level in this class. You can spend one ki point as a bonus action to give yourself advantage on the next attack roll, or ability check you make. You regain all ki points when you finish a short or long rest.
(3rd level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Weapon Mastery: Choose one weapon type, you gain a +2 to attack rolls using that type of weapon. You can use Strength or Dexterity to wield any weapon that doesn’t have the Heavy property.
Unarmed Specialist - Martial Arts: If you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can spend 1 ki to expend the target’s reaction.
Tactician - Wise Advice: When another creature you can see within 30 ft of you makes an ability check or attack roll, you can use your reaction to spend one ki point to give that creature advantage or disadvantage on the roll.
Arcanist - Ki-Spells : You can channel arcane power with your ki. As an action you can spend a number of ki up to your proficiency bonus to target a number of creatures equal to the number of ki spent with a magical effect. Each target must be within 60 ft of you, and makes a Dexterity saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisdom modifier + proficiency bonus. On a failure you cause one of the following effects:
(4th level) ASI
(5th level) Extra Attack
(5th level) Meditation
You can spend 10 minutes meditating to gain the benefits of a short rest. You reduce your levels of exhaustion by 1 when you finish a short rest.
(6th level) ASI
(6th level) Perfect Landing
When you fall, you can use your reaction to reduce the fall damage you take by 5 + your Martial Artist Level, and land on your feet.
(7th level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Deflect Missiles: When you are hit by a ranged attack you can use your reaction to attempt to deflect the attack. Roll 1d10 and add your level, you reduce the damage taken by the total rolled.
Unarmed Specialist - Ki-empowered strikes: Your Unarmed Strikes are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances. When you hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend 1 ki to do one of the following:
You can use this ability only once per turn.
Tactician - Stunning Strike:When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can spend 1 ki to force it to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failure, it is stunned until the end of its turn. On a success, it is unable to make reactions and its movement speed is halved until the start of its turn. You can use this feature only once per turn.
Arcanist - Advanced Ki-Spells : when you use your Ki-Spells feature you can choose to force the targets to make a Wisdom saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisd+prof. On a failure you cause one of the following effects (they can repeat the save at the end of each of their turns ending the effect on a success):
(8th level) ASI
(9th level) Resilient
You gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws. When you finish a short rest, you gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus.
(10th level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Weapon bond : as a bonus action you spend 1-3 ki to bind one weapon you are holding to yourself. The weapon gains a +1-3 bonus to attacks and damage equal to the number of ki spent. If the weapon already has a similar bonus this effect replaces that bonus. In addition, the weapon gains the thrown property with a range of 40/60ft and magically returns to your hand immediately after striking something.
Unarmed Specialist - Deflect Attack: While you are unarmed, when you are targeted by an attack you can use your reaction to increase your AC by 5 against that attack. If the attack still hits you can spend ki points to reduce the damage you take by 10 for each ki point spent.
Tactician - Trained Mind: You gain proficiency in Wisdom and Intelligence saving throws.
Arcanist - Banishment : when you use your Ki-Spells feature you can choose to force the targets to make a Charisma saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisd+prof, on a failure they are banished to a harmless other plane of existence until the start of your next turn.
(11th level) Extra Attack
You make 3 attacks when you take the Attack action.
(12th level) ASI
(13th level) Evasion
(14th level) ASI
(15th level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Rapid Strike: When you take the Attack action, you can spend 1 ki to make one additional attack as part of that action.
Unarmed Specialist - Flurry: When you would make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, you can instead make two unarmed strikes.
Tactician - Weaken: When a creature within 60 ft of you that you can see makes a saving throw you can use your reaction to spend 3 ki to grant it advantage or disadvantage on that save.
Arcanist - Paralysis : when you use your Ki-Spells feature you can choose to force the targets to make a Constitution saving throw vs your DC = 8+Wisd+prof, on a failure they are paralyzed until the end of your next turn.
(16th level) ASI
(17th level) Recentre
You can take the Dodge action as a bonus action. When you do so you can cause one of the following conditions to end on yourself: frightened, charmed, poisoned, blinded.
(18th level) Subclass Feature
Weapon Master - Balance : While holding a weapon you have advantage on Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom saving throws.
Unarmed Specialist - Resilient Body: As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki to regain hit points equal to half of your hit point maximum.
Tactician - Enact Plan: You can spend 5 ki to take a second Action on your turn.
Arcanist - Irresistible : when you use your Ki-Spells feature and a creature succeeds on the saving throw, you can turn that success into a failure. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you take a short or long rest.
(19th level) ASI
(20th level) Kung Fu
You gain +4 bonus to your Wisdom and Dexterity and the maximum of these ability scores increases to 24.
Like I already said, I'm not against it - tuck it into a subclass that revolves around armor and weapons and has supporting mechanics that make it all work, and you're good. It's the same reason why I don't want fighters go have spellcasting as a base class feature, or why I don't want wizards to have extra attack and martial weapon proficiency. Subclasses? Sure, knock yourself out. But imagine me arguing with foam at mouth that monks MUST HAVE DIVINE SPELLCASTING FROM LEVEL 1 AND IF YOU'RE AGAINST IT YOU'RE JUST MEAN AND DON'T WANT ANYONE TO HAVE FUN. There's base stuff that defines class identity. Theme matters. I want fighter to be more complex, have more identity, because fighter lacks both, terribly, it's an empty class that gets leftovers from scrapped concepts as subclasses (Psi Warrior, Rune Knight), and it's outright humiliating. Monk, on another hand, has a very strong identity that I'd rather not mess with, the class just needs mechanical adjustments to function properly. And more stuff to do, of course.
Barbarians wearing armor is natural. Vikings, Mongols, and most tribes north of Rome cared enough to wear some protection. Conan the Barbarian wore armor in Robert Howard's novels. And mechanically, this makes sense, too, because to maximize the gain from Unarmored Defense, the barbarian would have to maximize Dex, which is pretty unnatural for a barbarian, since their class features specifically work only with Str-based attacks and checks. Dex barbs don't exist - a shame, by the way, because I'd really like a swift Dex-based Mongol barbarian subclass.
But suppose you allow medium armor to monks. Best you can start with is scale mail, 14 AC +2 Dex bonus, no bonus from Wis. That leaves you at 16 AC with 14 Dex (because the excess doesn't give you any protection anyway). Theoretically, you'd keep your Dex that low to prioritize Wis, so you'll start with 16 Wis and pump it to 18 by level 4, which means that this scale mail makes no difference now, you get the same AC naked. But then you continue growing and you end up with 20 AC from 20 Dex and 20 Wis - which is the same as half plate +3, the best medium armor in terms of protection. The argument that someone might want a Str monk also doesn't hold ground because Martial Arts feature essentially transfers all benefits of Str into Dex. So, even letting monk use medium armor essentially solves nothing. Messing with the base image of a monk, and for what? A gimmicky specific build that fluctuates between being 1, maybe 2 AC ahead, and being at the same spot as the regular monk. What's the point?
What truly needs to be done is a fix to monks' MADness. The way it is now, a monk has no choice but to take no feats and just race to 20/20 in Dex and Wis through ASI to maintain efficiency. Paladin and Ranger are also MAD, but they have defensive and buff options with their spellcasting, so they can essentially pretend they're not MAD at all most of the time, increasing Cha as a paladin feels like a bonus rather than absolute necessity. Monk's MADness is the worst of all cases. Their features are mostly offensive, you rely on your Ki save DC. This is what has to be fixed. Armor does nothing to address this issue. Want a simple solution? Let Ki save DC be determined by Dex, +[PB] AC when unarmored, and d10 HP. Boom, easy fix. Though not an elegant one, as it leaves Wis overboard. But it frees up feat slots for interesting stuff and perhaps some Con by the way, which is useful for a member of warrior group (the rest of which is SAD, BTW). Does it leave space for medium armor? Meeehh... Only if you design a feature that lets you break the rules and make full use of your Dex while in medium armor - which definitely is a bit too OP to give at level 1.
This one makes me laugh for two reasons.
1) Giving a class spellcasting of any kind would affect all builds. Having a choice between Armor or No Armor is in no way equivalent.
2) Monk noun : A member of a religious community of men typically living under vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience.
Having Divine spellcasting makes more sense for a Monk than being a master of martial arts.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
1) Well you can just choose not to use it, duh.
2) This is the reason behind this example. You can shove divine spellcasting into monk because christian monks pray to god, and they count as monks, right? It will solve a lot of problems, open up possibilities and options, and let people play however they want, so obviously anyone who's against it is wrong. But will it still be the same class? Nope.
So play paladin or cleric.
Monasticism, or the practice of living as a monk, exists in several religions of the world, including Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.
Believe it or not, there is more than one religion in the world.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Woah there buddy, cool your horses. I think it's a bit of a stretch to take this quote and interpret as "Christianity is the one true religion." Why don't we all just maybe not.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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What prevents you from playing a Buddhist paladin then? Oath of Redemption is pretty fitting. Not to mention that some knightly orders of Europe were, in fact, warrior monks, like Hospitaliers or Templars.
Believe it or not, I once had an order of quasi-Islamic paladins (Oath of Vengeance) in my mohebrew setting, along with communist dwarves who called their paladins commissars (Oath of Conquest).
So, you actually might just have your vision of monk in the game already. It's paladin.
You have completely missed the point.
I don't want to have divine casting monks.
I was pointing out that ALL monks are devoted to a religion, but not ALL monks study martial arts. Therefore monks as divine casters are more logical than as martial artists. That is why your example was humorous to me.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You also missed the point. All monks are members of some religion. That is a core trait of being a monk.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yet here we are with monk class based on the popular image of Shaolin monks.
Not even every cleric has to be a member of some religion in DnD, much less the monk...
If I am being completely honest, I think that they should drop the name Monk all together, but I don't know what would be a better name for the class. Monk is used to for too many beliefs and practices to really match what the class does.
Also, most of the people that come to mind when you think about martial arts aren't Monks. Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Ip Man, Jet Li and Chuck Norris for example are(were) all highly skilled, yet none of them are(were) Monks. Most of the people from history that are said to have developed martial arts were not monks. Many were generals and at least one was a physician. A lot of people think of ninjas and martial arts together, but they weren't monks either. Of course you do have the Shaolin Monks, but they are a very small minority when it comes to those that train in martial arts so it seems strange to have an entire class dedicated to them.
Martial Artist is also far too vague to work, though it is the term most commonly used when describing things that the D&D Monk does. I don't think it would go over well though.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Which is even more of a reason to stop trying to force every D&D Monk into being a Shaolin Monk and be allowed to cover a broader range of ideals and playstyles. Not all Clerics in D&D worship a god, not all Monks in D&D are Shaolin style monks.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't see why monk should be dropped as a name. Sure, its real-world connotation is religious, but that doesn't mean the fantasy connotation has to be as well for them to be called monks. If warlocks, wizards, and sorcerers (all of which mean the same thing in real life) can be completely separate things, I don't see why monks have to stick to their name so much. Just like clerics (real-world members of a clergy) don't technically have to worship a god, wizards (male spellcasters) can be female, bards don't have to play any music at all, and rangers... don't have to be from Middle Earth. The "we call classes because these are the names of the classes even if they are factually incorrect" mindset is a rule, not an exception.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
But I think it's the core of the issue. There's other classes that fight with martial weapons or have a religious theme, yet TSR wanted a martial artist in DnD, and this very thing is the core of monk's design. Why call it monk? Well, how else do you call it? Shaolin monk is a trope that is indivisibly associated with eastern martial arts, so they went with it. They could've smeared it all over as subclasses, but they decided to make it a base class and unite all the subtropes under it, which I'm personally very happy about. One class, a martial artist at its core, can be a ninja, a pressure point doctor, a straw hat ronin, all of these eastern culture tropes bound together in one class. So far, it worked. Monk wasn't the best class across editions, but among other martials, it was okay. I don't think it's impossible to fix its issues in terms of raw power.
With 5E, feats are an optional game mechanic, so basically, when designing the classes, everyone was expected to use their ASI’s for stat increases.
We now see that 1DD will have feats as part of everyday play and not optional. So that’s why I suggest keeping UAD, revise it so it keeps balanced with armor without sacrificing all you ASI’s. I’m fine if monks get some armor proficiency. It just has to be balanced so either play style is viable.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
And here we have the core of the issue.
Monk, as a class, does not offer players any choices. You will ALWAYS take 15 DX, 15 CN, and 15 WS with an 8 in your other three stats when building a monk. You will ALWAYS spend every single ASI you get on increasing those numbers. You will ALWAYS play exactly the same way as every other monk ever created, because all monks are forced to be 100% completely identical in all ways if they want to live.
Point me at one single serious martial artist that has an 8 Strength. One. One single one, that isn't an ancient aged master well beyond his prime who used to be drastically stronger in his youth - and even that guy's going to be much stronger for his age than anyone else. Point me at one single martial artist that's too weak to perform athletically or to grapple his foes. And yet everybody is perfectly fine with monks being 8 ST/IQ/CH weenies?
What if I want to make a Cobalt Soul monk because the cobalt expositors of Critical Role are among my favorite character ideas in all of D&D? Cobalt Soul monks highly value Intelligence and the strength of extensive knowledge...but because the monk has zero room whatsoever for anything but mainlining DX and WS like a pound-a-day coke addict, my Cobalt Expositor is required to have an 8 Intelligence despite that making no god damned sense for her.
Monks get no access to magic loot because everybody's always yelling at them to use no armor or weapons, and monk-exclusive items are weird, bad, and don't feel good to hand out or get because it's obvious the DM is just preassigning loot in an unfun and uncool way. Monks also get no access to any of the other tropes associated with martial artists, because they have to be Wise Zen Masters who are also apparently stupid, atrophied, and an *******.
This sucks. And it doesn't need to be this way. Fixing Unarmored Defense so monks can ******* survive with numbers lower than 20 in their 'core' stats is Step 1.
Please do not contact or message me.