It might be a bit uneven in distribution, but Id like it if Cleric subclasses still granted some 1st-level domain spells. This might mean you end up getting 4 spells at level 3 (two 1st plus two 2nd) but it doesnt feel quite right that your 1st level spell slots can only be used for you class-specific spells and not for any unique or flavorful subclass options, especially since your 1st level slots are the most numerous in your kit.
For example, I have been looking at the Arcana Domain from SCAG alot recently, and if it was restructured in a similar way to Life Cleric I feel like removing Magic Missile and Detect Magic from its kit would be criminal
Yeah, it’s kind of odd that the premier healer in the game has to make an effort to prep cure wounds and healing word. At least one of those should be a freebie.
Yeah no first level free spells felt odd to me too. I don't know how they want to handle it but it needs to be fixed. I'll mention it in the survey.
Some options -
Just give each Domain 1st and 2nd level spells at level 3. It's a lot at once, but the balance is the same as before. It just doesn't help level 1 and 2 characters.
Give all Clerics a couple 1st level spells that are always prepared for free at level 1. There are some good all-around choices like Cure Wounds. The downside is not being able to theme them as much as a Domain would.
Give +2 prepared slots for 1 level one spells. It kind of works, but is lazy and ugly.
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
That's all I got off the top of my head. I think the Holy Order might be my favorite of these options. Seems like a good compromise.
Getting the subclass at 3rd level feels right to me, they all should get it at level 3 in my opinion. Spiritual weapon requiring concentration makes sense to me. If a character has to concentrate on spells like heat metal, or sleet storm, then maintaining a spectral weapon should require concentration too, to me it just makes sense. Goliaths having a lineage is cool, hoping for some nice artwork for them down the line, their abilities are fine, considering how great their original ability was(stone giant variant). When it comes to Cleric, I've honestly never played one because it never actually catched my eye, but with holy orders, and divine strike built in, as well as the smite undead makes it a lot more appealing anyways. Might make more people interested in being "the healer" is the way I'm looking at it. To me they kinda nailed it.
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
This would be my preferred solution; in fact I was thinking of suggesting in the feedback that they expand the orders to have one for each domain rather than having domain specific sub-classes as before; each one could grant an appropriate bonus and a single 1st-level spell, then the Life Domain could be rebranded as "Healer" or such instead.
So protector would be war, scholar would be knowledge and thaumaturge would be arcane; this way they can focus sub-classes on Clerics that play differently. This wouldn't necessarily mean you don't have any sub-classes geared to particular domains, but they wouldn't be as tied to them either.
They could also avoid the word domain entirely, so your choice of how to build the cleric has nothing to do with the domain they belong to as such (though there will certainly be some choices that are more obvious for a stereotypical cleric of each domain).
I'm hoping they might be convinced to do something similar for Wizard to eliminate the need for school specific sub-classes; just give wizard an affinity for one school, then focus on sub-classes that change how the wizard plays in more interesting ways.
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Getting the subclass at 3rd level feels right to me, they all should get it at level 3 in my opinion. Spiritual weapon requiring concentration makes sense to me. If a character has to concentrate on spells like heat metal, or sleet storm, then maintaining a spectral weapon should require concentration too, to me it just makes sense. Goliaths having a lineage is cool, hoping for some nice artwork for them down the line, their abilities are fine, considering how great their original ability was(stone giant variant). When it comes to Cleric, I've honestly never played one because it never actually catched my eye, but with holy orders, and divine strike built in, as well as the smite undead makes it a lot more appealing anyways. Might make more people interested in being "the healer" is the way I'm looking at it. To me they kinda nailed it.
I'm not sure about all classes getting their sub class at 3, i mean I think that is their goal I just am not sure its a great idea. The features maybe have those show up at level 3 but warlock in particular feels weird you bargained with something for magical power it gave you magical power but you don't know who until level 3. Hey, maybe they will be doing what I want and switching them to a intelligence based class and levels 1-2 are magics they gleaned on their own without needing a pact making them more arcanists than fast talker mages.
Even cleric it seems a bit off, you have a god you are worshiping they are granting you spells it doesn't make much sense to be im worshiping the god of purity and nature but I took the undeath subclass.
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
This would be my preferred solution; in fact I was thinking of suggesting in the feedback that they expand the orders to have one for each domain rather than having domain specific sub-classes as before; each one could grant an appropriate bonus and a single 1st-level spell, then the Life Domain could be rebranded as "Healer" or such instead.
So protector would be war, scholar would be knowledge and thaumaturge would be arcane; this way they can focus sub-classes on Clerics that play differently. This wouldn't necessarily mean you don't have any sub-classes geared to particular domains, but they wouldn't be as tied to them either.
They could also avoid the word domain entirely, so your choice of how to build the cleric has nothing to do with the domain they belong to as such (though there will certainly be some choices that are more obvious for a stereotypical cleric of each domain).
I'm hoping they might be convinced to do something similar for Wizard to eliminate the need for school specific sub-classes; just give wizard an affinity for one school, then focus on sub-classes that change how the wizard plays in more interesting ways.
Basing it on Holy Order does seem interesting, but I don't know about expanding the orders and having a domain for each considering you choose a second Holy Order at level 9, I believe. I think the three Holy Orders are good for now. They could probably use some tweaking. And others could be added, but I don't think I would want domains based on them or vice versa. It's basically choosing a role you want to play, like choosing if you want to be a melee or ranged fighter.
But it will be interesting to see the feedback and if any changes will be implemented because of it. I wonder what the 4 domains will be in the new PHB, considering there are like 7 in the 2014 PHB.
Getting the subclass at 3rd level feels right to me, they all should get it at level 3 in my opinion. Spiritual weapon requiring concentration makes sense to me. If a character has to concentrate on spells like heat metal, or sleet storm, then maintaining a spectral weapon should require concentration too, to me it just makes sense. Goliaths having a lineage is cool, hoping for some nice artwork for them down the line, their abilities are fine, considering how great their original ability was(stone giant variant). When it comes to Cleric, I've honestly never played one because it never actually catched my eye, but with holy orders, and divine strike built in, as well as the smite undead makes it a lot more appealing anyways. Might make more people interested in being "the healer" is the way I'm looking at it. To me they kinda nailed it.
I'm not sure about all classes getting their sub class at 3, i mean I think that is their goal I just am not sure its a great idea. The features maybe have those show up at level 3 but warlock in particular feels weird you bargained with something for magical power it gave you magical power but you don't know who until level 3. Hey, maybe they will be doing what I want and switching them to a intelligence based class and levels 1-2 are magics they gleaned on their own without needing a pact making them more arcanists than fast talker mages.
Even cleric it seems a bit off, you have a god you are worshiping they are granting you spells it doesn't make much sense to be im worshiping the god of purity and nature but I took the undeath subclass.
In the video they talk about this, specifically ending 1-level dips into hexblade. And also the goal of letting you play a character for a bit before you have to make such a big choice. I don’t think it will be such a big deal, we all kind of suspend disbelief when it comes to a paladin not taking their oath until level 3. Seems like warlock could work the same.
As pointed out its a 5th level spell not 8th, and again outside a singular extra planar being banishment is not encounter ending. If there is singular creature with 50ish hit points many a martial is encounter ending at the same level, woo. Balance things fine, but this is not balance. This just says hey spell casters sit back and be buff bots for the martials because casting spells at the enemy is a waste of your action.
What are you talking about 50ish hit points? Banishment doesn't care what hit point total a creature has, a CR 15 Purple Worm with 247 hit points a -3 Charisma saving throw or a CR 20 Nightwalker with 337 hit points and -1 Charisma saving throw (neither of these have Legendary Resistance or even Magic Resistance) are easily defeated by a level 8 caster with a single spell. Sure it might not be permanently gone (depending on DM interpretation for the Nightwalker), but the party can yo-yo them by Banishing, preparing as much as they want and holding actions, releasing it, then immediately Banishing it again, for as long as they have 4th level spell slots. And that's assuming the party actually needs to kill it for some reason rather than simply get past it. Unless all your combats are made up of 6+ equally powerful enemies one banishment spell easily takes out the biggest threat letting the party mop up the mooks, then obliterate the BBEG in a 5v1 + suprise round. It handily takes a Deadly encounter into a Medium one. Add the fact that 0 monsters are immune (unlike Charm, Fear, and Paralysis), and lots have low Cha saves just ups its effectiveness.
What are you talking about 50ish hit points? Banishment doesn't care what hit point total a creature has
Though putting hit point checks on more 'save or lose' powers is a reasonable concept (if HP < X it takes them out, otherwise effect is transient).
The other problem is that having six different save types in 5e really wasn't a good idea. Intelligence and Charisma saves should probably be eliminated.
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
This would be my preferred solution; in fact I was thinking of suggesting in the feedback that they expand the orders to have one for each domain rather than having domain specific sub-classes as before; each one could grant an appropriate bonus and a single 1st-level spell, then the Life Domain could be rebranded as "Healer" or such instead.
So protector would be war, scholar would be knowledge and thaumaturge would be arcane; this way they can focus sub-classes on Clerics that play differently. This wouldn't necessarily mean you don't have any sub-classes geared to particular domains, but they wouldn't be as tied to them either.
They could also avoid the word domain entirely, so your choice of how to build the cleric has nothing to do with the domain they belong to as such (though there will certainly be some choices that are more obvious for a stereotypical cleric of each domain).
I'm hoping they might be convinced to do something similar for Wizard to eliminate the need for school specific sub-classes; just give wizard an affinity for one school, then focus on sub-classes that change how the wizard plays in more interesting ways.
That could be interesting. I'm loving the holy orders, both from a mechanical angle of giving you a meaningful decision point, and because it could present some really cool role play opportunities. I love the idea of different factions with the same religion, which may or may not work together. Schisms in a church over who is the true leader of the faith, religious civil wars. This gives a pretty neat framework for that kind of thing if you want to add it to a campaign.
I just don't like picking a second one later on. For one, it dilutes the rp possibilities, at least, to me it does. I suppose it could open some others. But for two, as I've seen others point out, you get to a situation like battlemaster maneuvers, where you're just left picking your second-tier choice. I'd rather see you stick to the same order and get a boost to it to reflect a deepening commitment to that expression of your faith
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
This would be my preferred solution; in fact I was thinking of suggesting in the feedback that they expand the orders to have one for each domain rather than having domain specific sub-classes as before; each one could grant an appropriate bonus and a single 1st-level spell, then the Life Domain could be rebranded as "Healer" or such instead.
So protector would be war, scholar would be knowledge and thaumaturge would be arcane; this way they can focus sub-classes on Clerics that play differently. This wouldn't necessarily mean you don't have any sub-classes geared to particular domains, but they wouldn't be as tied to them either.
They could also avoid the word domain entirely, so your choice of how to build the cleric has nothing to do with the domain they belong to as such (though there will certainly be some choices that are more obvious for a stereotypical cleric of each domain).
I'm hoping they might be convinced to do something similar for Wizard to eliminate the need for school specific sub-classes; just give wizard an affinity for one school, then focus on sub-classes that change how the wizard plays in more interesting ways.
That could be interesting. I'm loving the holy orders, both from a mechanical angle of giving you a meaningful decision point, and because it could present some really cool role play opportunities. I love the idea of different factions with the same religion, which may or may not work together. Schisms in a church over who is the true leader of the faith, religious civil wars. This gives a pretty neat framework for that kind of thing if you want to add it to a campaign.
I just don't like picking a second one later on. For one, it dilutes the rp possibilities, at least, to me it does. I suppose it could open some others. But for two, as I've seen others point out, you get to a situation like battlemaster maneuvers, where you're just left picking your second-tier choice. I'd rather see you stick to the same order and get a boost to it to reflect a deepening commitment to that expression of your faith
Ive seen others suggest that the 9th level feature should be an upgrade to your holy order rather than an additional order. Some ideas along these lines would be
Protector - Extra Attack feature / maybe the choice of one of the Fighting Style feats
Scholar - more skill proficiencies or languages / ability to ritual cast Divine spells without preparing them
Thaumaturge - more cantrips 0-level spells / some limited ability to regain X amount of spell slots between long rests
Whatever form it could take, I agree that they should stick to the same "pact" throughout progression OR if they want to mix and match there should be more than 3 options, even in the base PHB 2024
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
This would be my preferred solution; in fact I was thinking of suggesting in the feedback that they expand the orders to have one for each domain rather than having domain specific sub-classes as before; each one could grant an appropriate bonus and a single 1st-level spell, then the Life Domain could be rebranded as "Healer" or such instead.
So protector would be war, scholar would be knowledge and thaumaturge would be arcane; this way they can focus sub-classes on Clerics that play differently. This wouldn't necessarily mean you don't have any sub-classes geared to particular domains, but they wouldn't be as tied to them either.
They could also avoid the word domain entirely, so your choice of how to build the cleric has nothing to do with the domain they belong to as such (though there will certainly be some choices that are more obvious for a stereotypical cleric of each domain).
I'm hoping they might be convinced to do something similar for Wizard to eliminate the need for school specific sub-classes; just give wizard an affinity for one school, then focus on sub-classes that change how the wizard plays in more interesting ways.
That could be interesting. I'm loving the holy orders, both from a mechanical angle of giving you a meaningful decision point, and because it could present some really cool role play opportunities. I love the idea of different factions with the same religion, which may or may not work together. Schisms in a church over who is the true leader of the faith, religious civil wars. This gives a pretty neat framework for that kind of thing if you want to add it to a campaign.
I just don't like picking a second one later on. For one, it dilutes the rp possibilities, at least, to me it does. I suppose it could open some others. But for two, as I've seen others point out, you get to a situation like battlemaster maneuvers, where you're just left picking your second-tier choice. I'd rather see you stick to the same order and get a boost to it to reflect a deepening commitment to that expression of your faith
Ive seen others suggest that the 9th level feature should be an upgrade to your holy order rather than an additional order. Some ideas along these lines would be
Protector - Extra Attack feature / maybe the choice of one of the Fighting Style feats
Scholar - more skill proficiencies or languages / ability to ritual cast Divine spells without preparing them
Thaumaturge - more cantrips 0-level spells / some limited ability to regain X amount of spell slots between long rests
Whatever form it could take, I agree that they should stick to the same "pact" throughout progression OR if they want to mix and match there should be more than 3 options, even in the base PHB 2024
What could be really cool is if the level 9 one gives you a second choice, like a feat chain/tree. You choose protector at 2, then when you get to 9, you pick one of two or three protector-based upgrades, which are all different from the scholar and thaumaturge upgrades. I doubt they'll do that, since they seem to shy away from forcing people to plan ahead to that degree, but imo, that's the most interesting way to do it. But then, I really miss having multiple decision points in character advancement.
As pointed out its a 5th level spell not 8th, and again outside a singular extra planar being banishment is not encounter ending. If there is singular creature with 50ish hit points many a martial is encounter ending at the same level, woo. Balance things fine, but this is not balance. This just says hey spell casters sit back and be buff bots for the martials because casting spells at the enemy is a waste of your action.
What are you talking about 50ish hit points? Banishment doesn't care what hit point total a creature has, a CR 15 Purple Worm with 247 hit points a -3 Charisma saving throw or a CR 20 Nightwalker with 337 hit points and -1 Charisma saving throw (neither of these have Legendary Resistance or even Magic Resistance) are easily defeated by a level 8 caster with a single spell. Sure it might not be permanently gone (depending on DM interpretation for the Nightwalker), but the party can yo-yo them by Banishing, preparing as much as they want and holding actions, releasing it, then immediately Banishing it again, for as long as they have 4th level spell slots. And that's assuming the party actually needs to kill it for some reason rather than simply get past it. Unless all your combats are made up of 6+ equally powerful enemies one banishment spell easily takes out the biggest threat letting the party mop up the mooks, then obliterate the BBEG in a 5v1 + suprise round. It handily takes a Deadly encounter into a Medium one. Add the fact that 0 monsters are immune (unlike Charm, Fear, and Paralysis), and lots have low Cha saves just ups its effectiveness.
My point with 50ish hit points is a martial character can just flat up kill someone with that many hit points in one round. No one has a problem with just beating a enemy to death in one round as being an encounter ender.As a specifc example we had poor team fighter murder a demi lich in the first round of combat and what are they CR 20. No one complained.
As for your cherry picked examples, so freaking what the DM screwed up and put one single lame monster against them that s spell defeated them with. Though unless they have multiple casters with banishment what would likely happen is being is banished, pops back in a few readied attacks go off, it gets its full attack sequence off not a single readied attack and then its banished again which means the party would be better off without the banish. And yeah one strong enemy with a crap charisma save and 5 mooks would be a easier encounter if they failed their save. Again so what, fights are not supposed to be wrecking the party every time, most of them should be handled fairly easily. If a enemy doesn't have ranged attacks flight wipes them out just as easily. Tons of tactics both mundane and magical can turn a hard encounter into a easy one. You seem hellbent on making spells so bad no one will cast them as a form of balance. That isn't balance.
What are you talking about 50ish hit points? Banishment doesn't care what hit point total a creature has
Though putting hit point checks on more 'save or lose' powers is a reasonable concept (if HP < X it takes them out, otherwise effect is transient).
The other problem is that having six different save types in 5e really wasn't a good idea. Intelligence and Charisma saves should probably be eliminated.
I agree with the save part. I think they should have kept it at 3, I'd use best of 2 attributes feed into it. Use the old 3e/4e fort, will, reflex. int/dex feed into reflex, con/chr into fort, str/wis into will. I'll admit the str/wis is a stretch on the will side but whatever. I'd also consider 1/2 proficiency bonus for the stats you/monsters are not trained in. Players knowing a enemies saves can skew things.
What are you talking about 50ish hit points? Banishment doesn't care what hit point total a creature has
Though putting hit point checks on more 'save or lose' powers is a reasonable concept (if HP < X it takes them out, otherwise effect is transient).
The other problem is that having six different save types in 5e really wasn't a good idea. Intelligence and Charisma saves should probably be eliminated.
I agree with the save part. I think they should have kept it at 3, I'd use best of 2 attributes feed into it. Use the old 3e/4e fort, will, reflex. int/dex feed into reflex, con/chr into fort, str/wis into will. I'll admit the str/wis is a stretch on the will side but whatever. I'd also consider 1/2 proficiency bonus for the stats you/monsters are not trained in. Players knowing a enemies saves can skew things.
As long as we don't go back to far. I don't miss the old saves of;
Yes, a buff or and "Improved Holy Order". The options could be +1 AC when wearing Armor or Double proficiency and a level 1 spell from a different list. When there are only 6 cantrips in the PHB and you get 5 of them by level 10, getting another cantrip isn't much incentive. Pulling from another list is a great option though.
Ive seen others suggest that the 9th level feature should be an upgrade to your holy order rather than an additional order. Some ideas along these lines would be
Protector - Extra Attack feature / maybe the choice of one of the Fighting Style feats
Scholar - more skill proficiencies or languages / ability to ritual cast Divine spells without preparing them
Thaumaturge - more cantrips 0-level spells / some limited ability to regain X amount of spell slots between long rests
Whatever form it could take, I agree that they should stick to the same "pact" throughout progression OR if they want to mix and match there should be more than 3 options, even in the base PHB 2024
Came up with the same idea in a different thread myself. These are just naturally asking to be made)
Again, I personally think the real problem with Aardlings the first time around was that they presented a different theme, but without much mechanical difference from the Aasimar. They both came from the same planes, both got some divine magic/healing, and both got limited flight. By making Aardlings their own thing with nearly the same rules, they created a dichotomy that didn't previously exist. It further cemented in people's minds that Aasimar are meant to be Angels, and anything else was different.
But currently in 5e rules, there is no reason you can't have an Aasimar with a jackal head, or an elephant head, or a pig head. It's all just flavor. You'll be able to do the same in the next edition too.
But having Aardlings specifically state they only look like animals, it makes it seem like Aasimar can't look like animals. Which isn't the case. Now it does look like Aasimar are always western angels and anything else is an Aardling.
Which is why, if they are intent on keeping Aardlings, I prefer there at least be a mechanical difference. So you can still have an 'Egyptian style' Aasimar if you want. But if you want a Celestial beast person, you'll get some beast-like abilities out of it. They could even give them Primal spells and I think it would be better than just more healing.
Then the next step they should take is getting artwork that shows Aasimars with a wider range of appearances. Show how they could look like a whole broader variety of mythological inspiration from around the world. It's only the limited art and sample descriptions that make everyone think they have to look like 'angels.'
I think if they leave Aasimar as the celestial counterparts to to Tieflings. Let Ardlings develop in their own right and make them more powerful by scaling the animal ancestry properties, similar to what they did with Dragonborn. At level 5:
let the climber add strength bonus to unarmed clawed strikes;
give the fliers limited flight;
give the racer a disengage option like the mobility feat;
I don't know. Ardlings are in a bad spot with the latest form. It has moved from celestial animals to just animals at this point so it has kind of lost it's purpose of being a mirror to Tieflings.
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Yeah, it’s kind of odd that the premier healer in the game has to make an effort to prep cure wounds and healing word. At least one of those should be a freebie.
Yeah no first level free spells felt odd to me too. I don't know how they want to handle it but it needs to be fixed. I'll mention it in the survey.
Some options -
Just give each Domain 1st and 2nd level spells at level 3. It's a lot at once, but the balance is the same as before. It just doesn't help level 1 and 2 characters.
Give all Clerics a couple 1st level spells that are always prepared for free at level 1. There are some good all-around choices like Cure Wounds. The downside is not being able to theme them as much as a Domain would.
Give +2 prepared slots for 1 level one spells. It kind of works, but is lazy and ugly.
Base them on the Holy Order. That gives some thematic leeway. It might help Scholar appeal to more players if they're good. Like let them pick 2 from any spell list. But it still doesn't start until level 2.
That's all I got off the top of my head. I think the Holy Order might be my favorite of these options. Seems like a good compromise.
Getting the subclass at 3rd level feels right to me, they all should get it at level 3 in my opinion. Spiritual weapon requiring concentration makes sense to me. If a character has to concentrate on spells like heat metal, or sleet storm, then maintaining a spectral weapon should require concentration too, to me it just makes sense. Goliaths having a lineage is cool, hoping for some nice artwork for them down the line, their abilities are fine, considering how great their original ability was(stone giant variant). When it comes to Cleric, I've honestly never played one because it never actually catched my eye, but with holy orders, and divine strike built in, as well as the smite undead makes it a lot more appealing anyways. Might make more people interested in being "the healer" is the way I'm looking at it. To me they kinda nailed it.
This would be my preferred solution; in fact I was thinking of suggesting in the feedback that they expand the orders to have one for each domain rather than having domain specific sub-classes as before; each one could grant an appropriate bonus and a single 1st-level spell, then the Life Domain could be rebranded as "Healer" or such instead.
So protector would be war, scholar would be knowledge and thaumaturge would be arcane; this way they can focus sub-classes on Clerics that play differently. This wouldn't necessarily mean you don't have any sub-classes geared to particular domains, but they wouldn't be as tied to them either.
They could also avoid the word domain entirely, so your choice of how to build the cleric has nothing to do with the domain they belong to as such (though there will certainly be some choices that are more obvious for a stereotypical cleric of each domain).
I'm hoping they might be convinced to do something similar for Wizard to eliminate the need for school specific sub-classes; just give wizard an affinity for one school, then focus on sub-classes that change how the wizard plays in more interesting ways.
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I'm not sure about all classes getting their sub class at 3, i mean I think that is their goal I just am not sure its a great idea. The features maybe have those show up at level 3 but warlock in particular feels weird you bargained with something for magical power it gave you magical power but you don't know who until level 3. Hey, maybe they will be doing what I want and switching them to a intelligence based class and levels 1-2 are magics they gleaned on their own without needing a pact making them more arcanists than fast talker mages.
Even cleric it seems a bit off, you have a god you are worshiping they are granting you spells it doesn't make much sense to be im worshiping the god of purity and nature but I took the undeath subclass.
Basing it on Holy Order does seem interesting, but I don't know about expanding the orders and having a domain for each considering you choose a second Holy Order at level 9, I believe. I think the three Holy Orders are good for now. They could probably use some tweaking. And others could be added, but I don't think I would want domains based on them or vice versa. It's basically choosing a role you want to play, like choosing if you want to be a melee or ranged fighter.
But it will be interesting to see the feedback and if any changes will be implemented because of it. I wonder what the 4 domains will be in the new PHB, considering there are like 7 in the 2014 PHB.
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In the video they talk about this, specifically ending 1-level dips into hexblade. And also the goal of letting you play a character for a bit before you have to make such a big choice. I don’t think it will be such a big deal, we all kind of suspend disbelief when it comes to a paladin not taking their oath until level 3. Seems like warlock could work the same.
What are you talking about 50ish hit points? Banishment doesn't care what hit point total a creature has, a CR 15 Purple Worm with 247 hit points a -3 Charisma saving throw or a CR 20 Nightwalker with 337 hit points and -1 Charisma saving throw (neither of these have Legendary Resistance or even Magic Resistance) are easily defeated by a level 8 caster with a single spell. Sure it might not be permanently gone (depending on DM interpretation for the Nightwalker), but the party can yo-yo them by Banishing, preparing as much as they want and holding actions, releasing it, then immediately Banishing it again, for as long as they have 4th level spell slots. And that's assuming the party actually needs to kill it for some reason rather than simply get past it. Unless all your combats are made up of 6+ equally powerful enemies one banishment spell easily takes out the biggest threat letting the party mop up the mooks, then obliterate the BBEG in a 5v1 + suprise round. It handily takes a Deadly encounter into a Medium one. Add the fact that 0 monsters are immune (unlike Charm, Fear, and Paralysis), and lots have low Cha saves just ups its effectiveness.
Though putting hit point checks on more 'save or lose' powers is a reasonable concept (if HP < X it takes them out, otherwise effect is transient).
The other problem is that having six different save types in 5e really wasn't a good idea. Intelligence and Charisma saves should probably be eliminated.
That could be interesting. I'm loving the holy orders, both from a mechanical angle of giving you a meaningful decision point, and because it could present some really cool role play opportunities. I love the idea of different factions with the same religion, which may or may not work together. Schisms in a church over who is the true leader of the faith, religious civil wars. This gives a pretty neat framework for that kind of thing if you want to add it to a campaign.
I just don't like picking a second one later on. For one, it dilutes the rp possibilities, at least, to me it does. I suppose it could open some others. But for two, as I've seen others point out, you get to a situation like battlemaster maneuvers, where you're just left picking your second-tier choice. I'd rather see you stick to the same order and get a boost to it to reflect a deepening commitment to that expression of your faith
Ive seen others suggest that the 9th level feature should be an upgrade to your holy order rather than an additional order. Some ideas along these lines would be
Protector - Extra Attack feature / maybe the choice of one of the Fighting Style feats
Scholar - more skill proficiencies or languages / ability to ritual cast Divine spells without preparing them
Thaumaturge - more
cantrips0-level spells / some limited ability to regain X amount of spell slots between long restsWhatever form it could take, I agree that they should stick to the same "pact" throughout progression OR if they want to mix and match there should be more than 3 options, even in the base PHB 2024
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What could be really cool is if the level 9 one gives you a second choice, like a feat chain/tree. You choose protector at 2, then when you get to 9, you pick one of two or three protector-based upgrades, which are all different from the scholar and thaumaturge upgrades. I doubt they'll do that, since they seem to shy away from forcing people to plan ahead to that degree, but imo, that's the most interesting way to do it. But then, I really miss having multiple decision points in character advancement.
It is a little strange to have two threads having pretty much the same discussion lol.
I like Kaboom's idea quite a bit.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
My point with 50ish hit points is a martial character can just flat up kill someone with that many hit points in one round. No one has a problem with just beating a enemy to death in one round as being an encounter ender.As a specifc example we had poor team fighter murder a demi lich in the first round of combat and what are they CR 20. No one complained.
As for your cherry picked examples, so freaking what the DM screwed up and put one single lame monster against them that s spell defeated them with. Though unless they have multiple casters with banishment what would likely happen is being is banished, pops back in a few readied attacks go off, it gets its full attack sequence off not a single readied attack and then its banished again which means the party would be better off without the banish. And yeah one strong enemy with a crap charisma save and 5 mooks would be a easier encounter if they failed their save. Again so what, fights are not supposed to be wrecking the party every time, most of them should be handled fairly easily. If a enemy doesn't have ranged attacks flight wipes them out just as easily. Tons of tactics both mundane and magical can turn a hard encounter into a easy one. You seem hellbent on making spells so bad no one will cast them as a form of balance. That isn't balance.
I agree with the save part. I think they should have kept it at 3, I'd use best of 2 attributes feed into it. Use the old 3e/4e fort, will, reflex. int/dex feed into reflex, con/chr into fort, str/wis into will. I'll admit the str/wis is a stretch on the will side but whatever. I'd also consider 1/2 proficiency bonus for the stats you/monsters are not trained in. Players knowing a enemies saves can skew things.
As long as we don't go back to far. I don't miss the old saves of;
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yes, a buff or and "Improved Holy Order". The options could be +1 AC when wearing Armor or Double proficiency and a level 1 spell from a different list. When there are only 6 cantrips in the PHB and you get 5 of them by level 10, getting another cantrip isn't much incentive. Pulling from another list is a great option though.
Came up with the same idea in a different thread myself. These are just naturally asking to be made)
I think if they leave Aasimar as the celestial counterparts to to Tieflings. Let Ardlings develop in their own right and make them more powerful by scaling the animal ancestry properties, similar to what they did with Dragonborn. At level 5:
let the climber add strength bonus to unarmed clawed strikes;
give the fliers limited flight;
give the racer a disengage option like the mobility feat;
give the swimmers Wall of Water like a Triton.
This will make them distinct in their own right.
I don't know. Ardlings are in a bad spot with the latest form. It has moved from celestial animals to just animals at this point so it has kind of lost it's purpose of being a mirror to Tieflings.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master