I've liked the darkvision rules, they made sense to me. Though I've rarely been in a game where the disadvantage to perception checks are actually used.
But the argument about how parties with different darkvision abilities really messes with game play makes a ton of sense. Its way better if everyone can be on the same page.
It is harder to stay hidden with a light source, but most monsters would have the same issue. And if you are creeping up on a light source in the dark you could snuff out your light and still have some sense of where you're going. I'd make subterranean monsters like ropers or slimes (if they don't already have it) get blindsight out to 30 or 60 feet instead.
Darkvision became immediately apparent as a solid advantage when I introduced my teenagers to the game. They deliberately created characters that had it and avoided making future characters that did not possess it.
I like the OP idea. It appears simple to implement.
When I DM I have my own schematic on a post-it for how darkness affects the party. Two circles--one for those with darkvision, one for those without. The center of the circle is the "torch" or light source. Needless to say, the darkvision circle is larger (goes out 60 feet) but the mechanics are basically the same. Bright light rules in the center, "shadow" rules past the first line, and darkness beyond that.
When I map the dungeon, I only lay down walls and decoration tiles based on where the light source is. When they search, I only determine the outcome based on what is in their bright light circle. When something is creeping along in the shadows beyond their light circle (or darkvision range) I roll for the creature's stealth check and, if they fail, I say "you hear something". Whispers, scuttling sounds, perhaps indistinguishable vocal noises. The only thing the players have control over is their passive perception score (which is reduced by -5 outside the "bright light" circle).
So basically, all Darkvision does is increase the radius of tiles I have to fill in as they explore the room.
As for the monsters all targeting the pc with the torch...that's what Dancing Lights is for.
I've liked the darkvision rules, they made sense to me. Though I've rarely been in a game where the disadvantage to perception checks are actually used.
But the argument about how parties with different darkvision abilities really messes with game play makes a ton of sense. Its way better if everyone can be on the same page.
It is harder to stay hidden with a light source, but most monsters would have the same issue. And if you are creeping up on a light source in the dark you could snuff out your light and still have some sense of where you're going. I'd make subterranean monsters like ropers or slimes (if they don't already have it) get blindsight out to 30 or 60 feet instead.
Exactly! That sounds like some very intersting scenarios you just don't get with Darkvision currently. Most monsters will still need light too. The ones that are especially adapted to complete darkness will be extra scary. And they might even pull off the kinds of ambushes they are meant to more often.
When I DM I have my own schematic on a post-it for how darkness affects the party. Two circles--one for those with darkvision, one for those without. The center of the circle is the "torch" or light source. Needless to say, the darkvision circle is larger (goes out 60 feet) but the mechanics are basically the same. Bright light rules in the center, "shadow" rules past the first line, and darkness beyond that.
When I map the dungeon, I only lay down walls and decoration tiles based on where the light source is. When they search, I only determine the outcome based on what is in their bright light circle. When something is creeping along in the shadows beyond their light circle (or darkvision range) I roll for the creature's stealth check and, if they fail, I say "you hear something". Whispers, scuttling sounds, perhaps indistinguishable vocal noises. The only thing the players have control over is their passive perception score (which is reduced by -5 outside the "bright light" circle).
So basically, all Darkvision does is increase the radius of tiles I have to fill in as they explore the room.
As for the monsters all targeting the pc with the torch...that's what Dancing Lights is for.
That sounds like a fun way for your players to interact with the world! But it sure is a lot of work for you. And it gets even more complicated when there are other light sources in the rooms and all the circles start to overlap.
If Low Light Vision just removes the disadvantage for Perception checks in dim light, it takes away all of that tracking and measuring. Because all vision is based on the light sources themselves, instead of the characters personal circles overlapping the light source circles, in ever-moving patterns.
Darkvision became immediately apparent as a solid advantage when I introduced my teenagers to the game. They deliberately created characters that had it and avoided making future characters that did not possess it.
I like the OP idea. It appears simple to implement.
Thanks! That's exactly the kind of problem I saw too sometimes. I feel bad when players feel they have to make character decisions based on one awkward game mechanic.
I edited the first post with a variation on the wording of the rule. it might be better to present the rule this way :
Low Light Vision - you do not suffer the disadvantage on Perception checks caused by dim light.
Mechanically it's the exact same thing. But I think writing it this way helps give a better mental image of what it looks like. To maintain the ambience better in the game world. The light is still dim to these characters, they're just better at perceiving things in dim light.
I feel like I'm going to steal this idea whenever I run a campaign again. It just feels better and would solve so many logistical headaches with our 6-player parties.
I feel like I'm going to steal this idea whenever I run a campaign again. It just feels better and would solve so many logistical headaches with our 6-player parties.
Please do! I'm thrilled if anyone can get some use out of it. I'll be using it too going forward.
I essentially did this already by introducing a fourth tier of lighting. So I had Bright Light, Dim Light, Low Light, and No Light. Ends up being run effectively the same but with a bit more complexity and more difficulty in determining what lighting I'm using at a given time. I'm ashamed to say I didn't even think of compressing the vision capabilities in the opposite direction.
Other than I'm not sure I want to throw a wrench (tiny one, but still) in my players' understanding of in game lighting and vision right now I might switch. This seems like it would be a lot simpler for me without really sacrificing anything; I might have a little finer control over subtle changes in lighting with four tiers, but I don't really think that specific part of it has really brought much if anything to the table other than complexity, instead it was just something I dealt with to have a No Light tier that leveled the players vision capabilities. Thanks for bonking sillly me over the head with a better and simpler version.
1) It wasn't on every gosh darned creature aside from humans.
2) 'Activating' it required the person to bring their fingers up and press the side of their head beside their eyes and make a 'Click click' sound (like they're pressing a button)
Where is this notion that every race other than humans have darkvision coming from?
Probably because, of those, only halflings and maybe tortles and warforged are really 'popular'. Everything else is... much less popular. The vast majority of the popular races (dwarf, elf, tiefling, etc) have it and will make up the majority of non-humans in adventuring groups.
Where is this notion that every race other than humans have darkvision coming from?
Probably because, of those, only halflings and maybe tortles and warforged are really 'popular'. Everything else is... much less popular. The vast majority of the popular races (dwarf, elf, tiefling, etc) have it and will make up the majority of non-humans in adventuring groups.
So pretty much what I said in my last post.
In which case, wishing for "not every creature other than humans to have darkvision" isn't really correct, since that's not the real issue.
Only halflings are a normal race the rest probably see play at less than 5% of the tables. Its a bit disingenuous to list a bunch of odd ball races for that point. Yes, it is not literally only human but its most of the races played. .
Most of these species that don't have darkvision were released in more obscure or recent books. A lot of those weren't even available until the last year or so. Only the Halfling and the Dragonborn were in the PHB. Five of them are from settings that just got a 5e sourcebook. So they aren't nearly as accessible to players.
Almosy half of these are frequently banned by DMs. Either for their mechanical abilities, or because they don't fit in their campaign setting.
Not everyone is going to be drawn to a pony Centaur, or a satyr, or a tortle. They have a much more niche appeal to players in general.
And yes, there are players that pick their species for the darkvision. That's one of the problems. It's so powerful it affects people's choices.
My personal desire, and the reason I made the original post, was to change Darkvision so it's easier to use, more natural, and doesn't influence PC choices as much.
I essentially did this already by introducing a fourth tier of lighting. So I had Bright Light, Dim Light, Low Light, and No Light. Ends up being run effectively the same but with a bit more complexity and more difficulty in determining what lighting I'm using at a given time. I'm ashamed to say I didn't even think of compressing the vision capabilities in the opposite direction.
Other than I'm not sure I want to throw a wrench (tiny one, but still) in my players' understanding of in game lighting and vision right now I might switch. This seems like it would be a lot simpler for me without really sacrificing anything; I might have a little finer control over subtle changes in lighting with four tiers, but I don't really think that specific part of it has really brought much if anything to the table other than complexity, instead it was just something I dealt with to have a No Light tier that leveled the players vision capabilities. Thanks for bonking sillly me over the head with a better and simpler version.
Haha, happy to help. It sounds like your had a good idea too! It's cool to know we saw the same problem and came to a similar solution, even if we came at it from different directions. And you were able to test yours in real play. I haven't even tried mine. If you ever try my version out, I'd love to hear how it works for you.
It is worth noting that, per RAW, "Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights)."
While moonlight is quite dim, it's by no means 'vision is impossible'; it's certainly nothing like an unlit cave or dungeon.
Yeah I find that very strange. It never did sit right with me. Heavily Obscured is the same as being Blinded in DnD. You can't see at all and fail all checks that require sight. But fighting in moonlight is not the same as being in a cave with no lights. I've done both. A cave with the lights off is absolute darkness. It's fair to call that Blind. Moonlight takes a little time to adjust to, but I would call it dim light.
If I used my proposed rules for Darkvision, that would have to be the case. Only real darkness would be impossible to see in. Moonlight on most nights is better than even candlelight except for reading up close.
Also, there's just something beautiful to me about an Elf being at home in moonlight. They should just be as blind in a deep cave as anyone else too. Even Dwarves light their homes for a reason.
Yeah I find that very strange. It never did sit right with me. Heavily Obscured is the same as being Blinded in DnD. You can't see at all and fail all checks that require sight. But fighting in moonlight is not the same as being in a cave with no lights. I've done both. A cave with the lights off is absolute darkness. It's fair to call that Blind. Moonlight takes a little time to adjust to, but I would call it dim light.
Eh, I'd probably be willing to call it something like "heavily obscured, but you can still discern position" (so similar to what tremorsense does). That would give me tiers as follows:
Bright Light: as current rules.
Dim Light: as current rules.
Minimal Light: there's some light, but not enough to reliably act by. Creatures are heavily obscured but their locations can still be determined with vision.
Darkness: as current rules.
Night Vision: you can see in dim light as if it were bright. You can see up to your night vision range in minimal light as if it were dim light.
Dark Vision: as current rules.
Then change most instances of dark vision to night vision -- dark vision is mostly for undead and fiends.
This would make all those characters still depend on torches and light spells like everyone else.
Characters with darkvision are still dependent on light. Treating darkness as dim light means they're still making visual Wisdom (Perception) checks with disadvantage. That's -5 if you're relying on passive scores. And they can't see in color, either. Think of all the ways a DM can mess with players, just by using colors they might be choosing not to see.
That's the key. And that's the reason why darkvision doesn't work on many tables: People misapply it. Another thing that a lot of people misapply, or don't apply at all, is darkvision range. Out of range, you see nothing at all.
In my opinion darkvision works fine as it is. But it has to be applied well. And in general peaople need to apply the luminosity rules well, which are usually ignored.
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I've liked the darkvision rules, they made sense to me. Though I've rarely been in a game where the disadvantage to perception checks are actually used.
But the argument about how parties with different darkvision abilities really messes with game play makes a ton of sense. Its way better if everyone can be on the same page.
It is harder to stay hidden with a light source, but most monsters would have the same issue. And if you are creeping up on a light source in the dark you could snuff out your light and still have some sense of where you're going. I'd make subterranean monsters like ropers or slimes (if they don't already have it) get blindsight out to 30 or 60 feet instead.
Darkvision became immediately apparent as a solid advantage when I introduced my teenagers to the game. They deliberately created characters that had it and avoided making future characters that did not possess it.
I like the OP idea. It appears simple to implement.
When I DM I have my own schematic on a post-it for how darkness affects the party. Two circles--one for those with darkvision, one for those without. The center of the circle is the "torch" or light source. Needless to say, the darkvision circle is larger (goes out 60 feet) but the mechanics are basically the same. Bright light rules in the center, "shadow" rules past the first line, and darkness beyond that.
When I map the dungeon, I only lay down walls and decoration tiles based on where the light source is. When they search, I only determine the outcome based on what is in their bright light circle. When something is creeping along in the shadows beyond their light circle (or darkvision range) I roll for the creature's stealth check and, if they fail, I say "you hear something". Whispers, scuttling sounds, perhaps indistinguishable vocal noises. The only thing the players have control over is their passive perception score (which is reduced by -5 outside the "bright light" circle).
So basically, all Darkvision does is increase the radius of tiles I have to fill in as they explore the room.
As for the monsters all targeting the pc with the torch...that's what Dancing Lights is for.
~not a "lazy dungeon master"
Exactly! That sounds like some very intersting scenarios you just don't get with Darkvision currently. Most monsters will still need light too. The ones that are especially adapted to complete darkness will be extra scary. And they might even pull off the kinds of ambushes they are meant to more often.
That sounds like a fun way for your players to interact with the world! But it sure is a lot of work for you. And it gets even more complicated when there are other light sources in the rooms and all the circles start to overlap.
If Low Light Vision just removes the disadvantage for Perception checks in dim light, it takes away all of that tracking and measuring. Because all vision is based on the light sources themselves, instead of the characters personal circles overlapping the light source circles, in ever-moving patterns.
Thanks for sharing your methods though!
Thanks! That's exactly the kind of problem I saw too sometimes. I feel bad when players feel they have to make character decisions based on one awkward game mechanic.
I edited the first post with a variation on the wording of the rule. it might be better to present the rule this way :
Low Light Vision - you do not suffer the disadvantage on Perception checks caused by dim light.
Mechanically it's the exact same thing. But I think writing it this way helps give a better mental image of what it looks like. To maintain the ambience better in the game world. The light is still dim to these characters, they're just better at perceiving things in dim light.
I feel like I'm going to steal this idea whenever I run a campaign again. It just feels better and would solve so many logistical headaches with our 6-player parties.
Please do! I'm thrilled if anyone can get some use out of it. I'll be using it too going forward.
I essentially did this already by introducing a fourth tier of lighting. So I had Bright Light, Dim Light, Low Light, and No Light. Ends up being run effectively the same but with a bit more complexity and more difficulty in determining what lighting I'm using at a given time. I'm ashamed to say I didn't even think of compressing the vision capabilities in the opposite direction.
Other than I'm not sure I want to throw a wrench (tiny one, but still) in my players' understanding of in game lighting and vision right now I might switch. This seems like it would be a lot simpler for me without really sacrificing anything; I might have a little finer control over subtle changes in lighting with four tiers, but I don't really think that specific part of it has really brought much if anything to the table other than complexity, instead it was just something I dealt with to have a No Light tier that leveled the players vision capabilities. Thanks for bonking sillly me over the head with a better and simpler version.
My only wishes in regard to dark vision are
1) It wasn't on every gosh darned creature aside from humans.
2) 'Activating' it required the person to bring their fingers up and press the side of their head beside their eyes and make a 'Click click' sound (like they're pressing a button)
Hyperbole to some degree, but it's a clear majority (6/9 in the PHB, 19/33 in MMM).
Probably because, of those, only halflings and maybe tortles and warforged are really 'popular'. Everything else is... much less popular. The vast majority of the popular races (dwarf, elf, tiefling, etc) have it and will make up the majority of non-humans in adventuring groups.
Only halflings are a normal race the rest probably see play at less than 5% of the tables. Its a bit disingenuous to list a bunch of odd ball races for that point. Yes, it is not literally only human but its most of the races played. .
I think it's a combination of factors. Look at the list:
Lizardfolk, halflings, the old dragonborn, changelings, tortles, aarakocra, satyrs, centaurs, firbolgs, fairies, githyanki, githzerai, goliaths, harengon, warforged, kalashtar, giff, autognome, hadozee, grung, kender, kenku, minotaur
Most of these species that don't have darkvision were released in more obscure or recent books. A lot of those weren't even available until the last year or so. Only the Halfling and the Dragonborn were in the PHB. Five of them are from settings that just got a 5e sourcebook. So they aren't nearly as accessible to players.
Almosy half of these are frequently banned by DMs. Either for their mechanical abilities, or because they don't fit in their campaign setting.
Not everyone is going to be drawn to a pony Centaur, or a satyr, or a tortle. They have a much more niche appeal to players in general.
And yes, there are players that pick their species for the darkvision. That's one of the problems. It's so powerful it affects people's choices.
My personal desire, and the reason I made the original post, was to change Darkvision so it's easier to use, more natural, and doesn't influence PC choices as much.
Haha, happy to help. It sounds like your had a good idea too! It's cool to know we saw the same problem and came to a similar solution, even if we came at it from different directions. And you were able to test yours in real play. I haven't even tried mine. If you ever try my version out, I'd love to hear how it works for you.
It is worth noting that, per RAW, "Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights)."
While moonlight is quite dim, it's by no means 'vision is impossible'; it's certainly nothing like an unlit cave or dungeon.
Yeah I find that very strange. It never did sit right with me. Heavily Obscured is the same as being Blinded in DnD. You can't see at all and fail all checks that require sight. But fighting in moonlight is not the same as being in a cave with no lights. I've done both. A cave with the lights off is absolute darkness. It's fair to call that Blind. Moonlight takes a little time to adjust to, but I would call it dim light.
If I used my proposed rules for Darkvision, that would have to be the case. Only real darkness would be impossible to see in. Moonlight on most nights is better than even candlelight except for reading up close.
Also, there's just something beautiful to me about an Elf being at home in moonlight. They should just be as blind in a deep cave as anyone else too. Even Dwarves light their homes for a reason.
Eh, I'd probably be willing to call it something like "heavily obscured, but you can still discern position" (so similar to what tremorsense does). That would give me tiers as follows:
Then change most instances of dark vision to night vision -- dark vision is mostly for undead and fiends.
That's the key. And that's the reason why darkvision doesn't work on many tables: People misapply it.
Another thing that a lot of people misapply, or don't apply at all, is darkvision range. Out of range, you see nothing at all.
In my opinion darkvision works fine as it is. But it has to be applied well. And in general peaople need to apply the luminosity rules well, which are usually ignored.