SS & GWM are choices rather than just extra power but aren't treated as such by the community because optimization channels don't understand strategy.
No, it's because they're non-choices most of the time. Whether +5/-10 is better or worse than attacking normally is a simple function of the target's AC and whether or not you have advantage or disadvantage, and the vast majority of the time it's better.
This hugely depends on your game and magic item load out. IME it's the better choice only ~50% of the time, if that. E.g. if you don't have advantage and are using a Flametongue Greatsword you are better off not using GWM.
Apologies for what's mostly a stream of consciousness.
Been thinking about Fighters and I'm equally not a fan of arbitrary resource powers. The problem for Martials is trying to fit everything into a single action, and how easy the game makes it to be good in combat. Or more accurately, removed ways for it to be bad in combat.
Disarm someone and they should be either more vulnerable or have a cost (losing an attack/action) /risk (opportunity attack) involved in regaining their weapon - doesn't exist in the current rules. Casting a spell in melee with nothing but a wand between you and the dwarf with a Greataxe? You should be punished for letting them get that close - not the case under the rules.
So that's one aspect. Combat needs to be more difficult and dangerous. Then you've got space for Martials to make it less dangerous for themselves and more dangerous for their opponents.
Thoughts on how to give Fighters specifically more combat flexibility without sacrificing damage: design the base class to allow a Bonus Action Blind, Disarm, Intimidate, Shove, Trip, etc. as they progress through the levels. This saves them from losing an attack action (and damage), gives them non-attack options, but still has the opportunity cost of a Bonus Action (granted this is only an opportunity cost if there are viable Bonus Actions the fighter could be using). Some can effectively be 1/encounter (intimidated enemies, like most fear effects, would be immune for next minute/hour after initial effect), others could get worse as your opponent gets wise (they have advantage against your Disarm/Trip/Blind DC if you've already done it against them), etc. This would limit just spamming the strongest option.
You could take this further and design the subclasses to offer alternate Bonus Actions at 3rd level so there's meaningful choice and you expand (e.g. Eldritch Knight could cast a cantrip, Samurai Fighting Spirit, Echo Knight Manifest Echo) or improve your options (Banneret's Rallying Cry, etc).
For out of combat utility, unfortunately that comes down to three issues: skills are very flexible and interchangeable now, Strength (the archetypal Martial ability) is massively undervalued by the game system, and Expertise makes it possible for the Expert class to be better than specialists.
When Acrobatics can be used to do most feats of Athletics, it further weakens Strength/Martial. If the game was designed to be stricter about using skills for certain activities, then you could properly build class powers to allow the swap (e.g. monks and rogues can use Acrobatics in place of Athletics for certain tasks, Fighters can use Athletics with Dex, etc). You could also make the Fighter have Expertise in their maneuver DCs (or if too strong, have the DC be 10+prof+mod rather than 8). Anyone can trip, grapple, shove, etc. but Martials are better, etc. This shouldn't be overpowered compared to spell DCs as the effects would be limited in scale and power, but easier to achieve.
To counter the Dexterity supremacy, my simple solution is make damage always dependent on Strength (allowing specific class feats like monk Martial Arts, etc. circumvent it). Finesse weapons can still hit well, but Strength would become much less of a dump stat.
For Expertise, a houserule I've found works well is giving each class Expertise in one skill that fits their class. Experts still get more breadth of Expertise but can no longer exceed the specialists in their field. [I briefly thought about Fighter Expertise in weapons but that would quickly break bounded accuracy].
So there are a few thoughts that were bouncing around my head. I've not fully thought through what the 3rd order effects would look like and tweaks required to some of the base combat rules but that's where I see them having options. I also appreciate in retrospect that some of it is less focused on the martial/Caster divide.
People have noted in this thread previously that Martials do not deal enough damage to keep up with Casters, and the opportunity cost of doing maneuvers such as shoving, tripping, and disarming makes it not worth doing, especially since these conditions are easily removable and non-persistent. A potential solution to this is to just give Warriors more attacks. I've always thought that Barbarians and Monks should get one more attack, and Fighters should get two more, but the exact number of attacks I could be persuaded on. The opportunity cost of inflicting these conditions becomes much lower when attempting one is only worth 1/6th of your action, rather than 1/2.
Another angle is since these conditions can potentially inflicted by anyone with their action, just make these actions more effective when done by the Warrior group. When a Warrior knocks a creature prone, they get the wind taken out of them and can't attempt to get up until the end of their next turn. A Warrior disarming a weapon so it goes flying, forcing a creature to move out of position to get it or rely on weaker unarmed strikes. Warrior shoves are more powerful, moving creatures 10 or even 15 feet away, and potentially at different angles like the variant Shove Aside rule.
People have noted in this thread previously that Martials do not deal enough damage to keep up with Casters, and the opportunity cost of doing maneuvers such as shoving, tripping, and disarming makes it not worth doing, especially since these conditions are easily removable and non-persistent. A potential solution to this is to just give Warriors more attacks. I've always thought that Barbarians and Monks should get one more attack, and Fighters should get two more, but the exact number of attacks I could be persuaded on. The opportunity cost of inflicting these conditions becomes much lower when attempting one is only worth 1/6th of your action, rather than 1/2.
Another angle is since these conditions can potentially inflicted by anyone with their action, just make these actions more effective when done by the Warrior group. When a Warrior knocks a creature prone, they get the wind taken out of them and can't attempt to get up until the end of their next turn. A Warrior disarming a weapon so it goes flying, forcing a creature to move out of position to get it or rely on weaker unarmed strikes. Warrior shoves are more powerful, moving creatures 10 or even 15 feet away, and potentially at different angles like the variant Shove Aside rule.
I like your ideas in the last paragraph. Just giving more attacks will not convince players to do alternatives to simple attacks, though. I suspect they will just swing their weapons more, which would keep them fairly boring.
People have noted in this thread previously that Martials do not deal enough damage to keep up with Casters, and the opportunity cost of doing maneuvers such as shoving, tripping, and disarming makes it not worth doing, especially since these conditions are easily removable and non-persistent.
I often see calculations of damage for a single character build. I have not seen calculations of damage for two characters working together. For example, if one character - a fighter - keeps the focus of monster on them and minimizes the amount of damage taken, can another character do their job well so the collaboration of the two characters deliver more damage than the two characters acting independently?
I often see calculations of damage for a single character build. I have not seen calculations of damage for two characters working together. For example, if one character - a fighter - keeps the focus of monster on them and minimizes the amount of damage taken, can another character do their job well so the collaboration of the two characters deliver more damage than the two characters acting independently?
What you're describing is tanking. Which is not totally absent in 5e (sentinel feat, ancestral guardian barbarian, cavalier fighter) but is not generally considered terribly strong.
What you're describing is tanking. Which is not totally absent in 5e (sentinel feat, ancestral guardian barbarian, cavalier fighter) but is not generally considered terribly strong.
Isn't it? With my previous group, my players requested that I don't run combat if, for some reason, the two players who played martial characters couldn't make it to the session. Because I didn't like putting the characters of players who weren't at the table in jeopardy, so instead if there was combat during a session where players weren't present, their characters would be sort of off to the side fighting part of the combat encounter (a fight which they would win instantly the moment the rest of the party defeated the encounter), while the players who were present would fight a somewhat reduced encounter.
And when the Martials weren't there, the group would consistently gets its ass kicked by encounters that, if the Martials were present, they would have steamrolled like they did every other combat. Because the Fighter and the Rogue, working with the Cleric, could keep the monsters off the Wizard and the Artificer, but if it was just the Cleric, the other Casters would get swarmed (even when the number of monsters was reduced because the Fighter and Rogue were fighting some 'off to the side').
(In my current group, people trust each other enough that they let other members of the party drive their character when they can't make it.)
Isn't it? With my previous group, my players requested that I don't run combat if, for some reason, the two players who played martial characters couldn't make it to the session.
If you run a combat for 5 PCs with 3 PCs, the 3 PCs are likely to do poorly. Also, this is a function of level, wizards don't really have very good battlefield control spells before 5th level spells and I'm confused how you have an artificer who isn't a front line fighter, artificers generally have great armor and lousy offense. Now, if you have a moon druid you can discard the fighters starting at level 2.
I think most players are cool with other party members can do cool stuff. What i see at the tables i play at, is disappointment if some caster can do what you as a non-caster were supposed to be good at.
Suggestion for some quickfixes removing the worst examples ...
Also perhaps increase levels for some other spells causing minor problems
1) Disguise self (makes disguise kit obsolete) 2) Invisibility (makes stealth obsolete) 2) Misty step (too easy to get out of trouble) 4) Polymorph (one spell for all situation)
Finally lets make the casters 1d4 again. Want more HP ... just spend a feat on Tough.
I think most players are cool with other party members can do cool stuff. What i see at the tables i play at, is disappointment if some caster can do what you as a non-caster were supposed to be good at.
Suggestion for some quickfixes removing the worst examples ...
Also perhaps increase levels for some other spells causing minor problems
1) Disguise self (makes disguise kit obsolete) 2) Invisibility (makes stealth obsolete) 2) Misty step (too easy to get out of trouble) 4) Polymorph (one spell for all situation)
Finally lets make the casters 1d4 again. Want more HP ... just spend a feat on Tough.
The nerfs are too strong. You would also be eliminating a play style that many want to enjoy, the spell and sword. Booming blade is not a problem. It’s weaker than extra attack and it’s great for Eldritch Knight for whom it was designed. Find Traps is trash. Horrible spell, and is honestly a trap if you use it. Wasted spell slot. Knock is the most fair version of stepping on another classes toes. It says, “I, the wizard, can open the same chest as the rogue, but every guard in the building will know I did it. Skill empowerment I guess could be considered as a toe stepper. Steel wind strike is a fun spell but doesn’t do anything a martial character can. I’m not sure why you chose to have this on your list. Was it flavor? Tenser’s transformation is a fun spell, but it’s also a trap since it takes 10 minutes to put armor on. Glibness not sure how this is stepping on toes. Foresight is better cast on your martial companion.
As far as increasing levels I would also disagree. You are probably seeing bad DMing.
Disguise self has a save and if anyone touches you they know because they phase through the illusion. Disguise kit doesn’t have that problem. Invisibility only means you can’t be seen. You still need stealth checks to not be heard. Misty step might be too good 2nd level, but at third it’s too weak to be selected at all. Maybe make it an action. Polymorph isn’t that great when DMs remember to check the creatures Int mod. To many. DMs treat polymorph like Wild Shape. Once they call out the diffence in Int polymorph isn’t that great.
I think the best way to ensure that casters and martials (in which I include rogues, despite the new class groupings) are balanced versatility/utility wise is make sure that each designed with drawbacks and strengths in mind, and I personally believe that the drawbacks are the strengths: the drawback and strength of martial utility is it's mundanity, and caster utility it's spectacularity.
To demonstrate, let us consider the use of a lock pick to open a door versus the Knock spell. The lock pick, being the mundane tool that it is, is not guaranteed success, but both its success and its failure are quiet, and it is a feat that can be repeated a multitude of times without much effort. Knock being spectacular, however, guarantees both its success and the caster being noticed. This already distinctly separates the occasions in which each will see use; the lock pick will be used in low stake, high volume, or subtle tasks like break ins or opening chests in a treasure hoard, whereas the Knock spell will see use in high stake, limited volume, or aggressive situations, such as when fleeing through a building from guards and a locked door is barring your escape, or on the lock of a cage which is being lowered into a pit of acid.
As a combat example, take the spell Fireball, compared to the martial equivalent of... stabbing everything one at a time until it dies (more on this later). The Fireball is a big, limited-use spell which does a boat load of damage die instantaneously, but it also is indiscriminate, hitting foe and ally alike, and setting the environment ablaze. The Martial on the other hand spends way more time striking down each individual opponent, doing great(ish) damage with each swing, but does not have to worry about hurting their friends or destroying necessary paperwork.
I believe this kind of thinking should apply to all spells, and for the most part it does. However, it is not often that the Martial abilities are designed to be reliable options; in fact martials are sorely lacking any kind of options beyond what everyone else is capable of as a baseline -- the entirety of their utility comes from either a) out-of-combat skill checks, and of the martials only rogues get expertise, or b) sacrificing an attack mid-combat to make an unarmed strike, reducing their damage to apply one of two status effects or move someone 5 feet, neither of which are a middle-ground for any of the options casters have.
This is why I advocate for things from the Battle Master subclass to become baseline for Martial characters as either a bonus action or reaction, specifically manoeuvres like Riposte, Parry, Brace; Tripping, Lunging and Pushing Attack; and even possibly the Defensive Duelist feat. These are things that not only seem intuitive for a Warrior to be able to do, but they provide options for Martial characters to achieve what casters already do spectacularly, in a mundane way: control the battlefield and command space.
I wasn’t originally going to post but saw others did recently so I don’t feel as bad about the necromancy.
Quote from Agilemind>> For simplicity let's consider level 11-12 and assume the spellcaster using fireball or lightning bolt routinely as a damage spell, and hits 2 enemies with it each turn. That works out to ~12d6 dpr = 42.
Your math is slightly off here. At level 12, highest level of fireball or lightning bolt is 6th. That’s 11d6 dpr for 38.5. Also, your example is slightly off. You say that even the most basic fighter should do equal or more damage than that. Average dps for the sword & board fighter is 28.5. That is just performing the attack action. The caster used a spellslot. To make it fair, the fighter should use action surge. That doubles the damage output to 57. That is more than the fireball or lightning bolt can ever achieve, since at 17th level(9th level spellslot), they do 14d6 for an average of 49. Last thing about the example, there is an assumption that the enemy is failing the Dex save. Should they pass, average at level 12 is 19.25 and at max level is 24.5.
The issue isn’t the damage output here, it’s the frequency of it. Realistically, fighters should get more uses of action surge. It would deal with the issue of damage output quite nicely.
I think most players are cool with other party members can do cool stuff. What i see at the tables i play at, is disappointment if some caster can do what you as a non-caster were supposed to be good at.
Suggestion for some quickfixes removing the worst examples ...
Also perhaps increase levels for some other spells causing minor problems
1) Disguise self (makes disguise kit obsolete) 2) Invisibility (makes stealth obsolete) 2) Misty step (too easy to get out of trouble) 4) Polymorph (one spell for all situation)
Finally lets make the casters 1d4 again. Want more HP ... just spend a feat on Tough.
The nerfs are too strong. You would also be eliminating a play style that many want to enjoy, the spell and sword. Booming blade is not a problem. It’s weaker than extra attack and it’s great for Eldritch Knight for whom it was designed. Find Traps is trash. Horrible spell, and is honestly a trap if you use it. Wasted spell slot. Knock is the most fair version of stepping on another classes toes. It says, “I, the wizard, can open the same chest as the rogue, but every guard in the building will know I did it. Skill empowerment I guess could be considered as a toe stepper. Steel wind strike is a fun spell but doesn’t do anything a martial character can. I’m not sure why you chose to have this on your list. Was it flavor? Tenser’s transformation is a fun spell, but it’s also a trap since it takes 10 minutes to put armor on. Glibness not sure how this is stepping on toes. Foresight is better cast on your martial companion.
As far as increasing levels I would also disagree. You are probably seeing bad DMing.
Disguise self has a save and if anyone touches you they know because they phase through the illusion. Disguise kit doesn’t have that problem. Invisibility only means you can’t be seen. You still need stealth checks to not be heard. Misty step might be too good 2nd level, but at third it’s too weak to be selected at all. Maybe make it an action. Polymorph isn’t that great when DMs remember to check the creatures Int mod. To many. DMs treat polymorph like Wild Shape. Once they call out the diffence in Int polymorph isn’t that great.
This is why the problem will never the solved. Because anytime a nerf to casters is suggested there are a dozen people who complain it is too much of a nerf. Invisibility makes you unseeable and gives Adv on Stealth checks (equivalent to +5 bonus) which make a caster with Invisibility better at stealth than a rogue with expertise in stealth until ~level 11, at which point the caster has Dimension Door which can negate the need for stealth entirely as they can just teleport past all the guards, or they can Polymorph into a cat / dog / rat and walk past the guards.
Misty Step should be eliminated entirely, and Fly should be moved to 4th level as both allow PCs to just skip over any type of hazardous terrain : crossing a river, chasm, getting onto a high ledge, avoiding traps, escaping restaints, escaping prisons, etc... etc... Once the party gets to level 5 it's quite pointless to throw one of the many monsters that grapple/restrain at them b/c Misty Step utterly negates them as a threat.
Booming Blade is designed for Bladesingers and makes them a more effective melee combatant than an EK will ever be, Steel Wind Strike likewise is simply better in everyway than actionsurge for a melee combatant. I'd argue the Tasha's Summoning spells also need to be removed, because upcast to 4th, 6th or higher level makes them as effective in combat as a Sword and Board Fighter of the same level as the caster, basically making the caster both a caster and a martial in one.
I think most players are cool with other party members can do cool stuff. What i see at the tables i play at, is disappointment if some caster can do what you as a non-caster were supposed to be good at.
Suggestion for some quickfixes removing the worst examples ...
Also perhaps increase levels for some other spells causing minor problems
1) Disguise self (makes disguise kit obsolete) 2) Invisibility (makes stealth obsolete) 2) Misty step (too easy to get out of trouble) 4) Polymorph (one spell for all situation)
Finally lets make the casters 1d4 again. Want more HP ... just spend a feat on Tough.
The nerfs are too strong. You would also be eliminating a play style that many want to enjoy, the spell and sword. Booming blade is not a problem. It’s weaker than extra attack and it’s great for Eldritch Knight for whom it was designed. Find Traps is trash. Horrible spell, and is honestly a trap if you use it. Wasted spell slot. Knock is the most fair version of stepping on another classes toes. It says, “I, the wizard, can open the same chest as the rogue, but every guard in the building will know I did it. Skill empowerment I guess could be considered as a toe stepper. Steel wind strike is a fun spell but doesn’t do anything a martial character can. I’m not sure why you chose to have this on your list. Was it flavor? Tenser’s transformation is a fun spell, but it’s also a trap since it takes 10 minutes to put armor on. Glibness not sure how this is stepping on toes. Foresight is better cast on your martial companion.
As far as increasing levels I would also disagree. You are probably seeing bad DMing.
Disguise self has a save and if anyone touches you they know because they phase through the illusion. Disguise kit doesn’t have that problem. Invisibility only means you can’t be seen. You still need stealth checks to not be heard. Misty step might be too good 2nd level, but at third it’s too weak to be selected at all. Maybe make it an action. Polymorph isn’t that great when DMs remember to check the creatures Int mod. To many. DMs treat polymorph like Wild Shape. Once they call out the diffence in Int polymorph isn’t that great.
This is why the problem will never the solved. Because anytime a nerf to casters is suggested there are a dozen people who complain it is too much of a nerf. Invisibility makes you unseeable and gives Adv on Stealth checks (equivalent to +5 bonus) which make a caster with Invisibility better at stealth than a rogue with expertise in stealth until ~level 11, at which point the caster has Dimension Door which can negate the need for stealth entirely as they can just teleport past all the guards, or they can Polymorph into a cat / dog / rat and walk past the guards.
Misty Step should be eliminated entirely, and Fly should be moved to 4th level as both allow PCs to just skip over any type of hazardous terrain : crossing a river, chasm, getting onto a high ledge, avoiding traps, escaping restaints, escaping prisons, etc... etc... Once the party gets to level 5 it's quite pointless to throw one of the many monsters that grapple/restrain at them b/c Misty Step utterly negates them as a threat.
Booming Blade is designed for Bladesingers and makes them a more effective melee combatant than an EK will ever be, Steel Wind Strike likewise is simply better in everyway than actionsurge for a melee combatant. I'd argue the Tasha's Summoning spells also need to be removed, because upcast to 4th, 6th or higher level makes them as effective in combat as a Sword and Board Fighter of the same level as the caster, basically making the caster both a caster and a martial in one.
I don’t recall invisibility giving advantage on stealth, I don’t think obscurement does either, but I could be wrong. Stealth relies on more than just seeing.
I don’t know if Misty Step needs to be removed but it could be changed. Same for fly, which has always been an issue, especially with flying races. Which some DMs ban. But I don’t think they will change the level so it is up to the DM to realize this can be an issue and plan for it. Not the best resolution, but probably the only real option.
And Booming Blade is more an issue of Eldritch Knight not being the best subclass and Bladesinger’s extra attack a little too powerful. Not the cantrip itself. At level 11, EK are usually better off not using BB/GFB.
I think most players are cool with other party members can do cool stuff. What i see at the tables i play at, is disappointment if some caster can do what you as a non-caster were supposed to be good at.
Suggestion for some quickfixes removing the worst examples ...
Also perhaps increase levels for some other spells causing minor problems
1) Disguise self (makes disguise kit obsolete) 2) Invisibility (makes stealth obsolete) 2) Misty step (too easy to get out of trouble) 4) Polymorph (one spell for all situation)
Finally lets make the casters 1d4 again. Want more HP ... just spend a feat on Tough.
The nerfs are too strong. You would also be eliminating a play style that many want to enjoy, the spell and sword. Booming blade is not a problem. It’s weaker than extra attack and it’s great for Eldritch Knight for whom it was designed. Find Traps is trash. Horrible spell, and is honestly a trap if you use it. Wasted spell slot. Knock is the most fair version of stepping on another classes toes. It says, “I, the wizard, can open the same chest as the rogue, but every guard in the building will know I did it. Skill empowerment I guess could be considered as a toe stepper. Steel wind strike is a fun spell but doesn’t do anything a martial character can. I’m not sure why you chose to have this on your list. Was it flavor? Tenser’s transformation is a fun spell, but it’s also a trap since it takes 10 minutes to put armor on. Glibness not sure how this is stepping on toes. Foresight is better cast on your martial companion.
As far as increasing levels I would also disagree. You are probably seeing bad DMing.
Disguise self has a save and if anyone touches you they know because they phase through the illusion. Disguise kit doesn’t have that problem. Invisibility only means you can’t be seen. You still need stealth checks to not be heard. Misty step might be too good 2nd level, but at third it’s too weak to be selected at all. Maybe make it an action. Polymorph isn’t that great when DMs remember to check the creatures Int mod. To many. DMs treat polymorph like Wild Shape. Once they call out the diffence in Int polymorph isn’t that great.
This is why the problem will never the solved. Because anytime a nerf to casters is suggested there are a dozen people who complain it is too much of a nerf. Invisibility makes you unseeable and gives Adv on Stealth checks (equivalent to +5 bonus) which make a caster with Invisibility better at stealth than a rogue with expertise in stealth until ~level 11, at which point the caster has Dimension Door which can negate the need for stealth entirely as they can just teleport past all the guards, or they can Polymorph into a cat / dog / rat and walk past the guards.
Misty Step should be eliminated entirely, and Fly should be moved to 4th level as both allow PCs to just skip over any type of hazardous terrain : crossing a river, chasm, getting onto a high ledge, avoiding traps, escaping restaints, escaping prisons, etc... etc... Once the party gets to level 5 it's quite pointless to throw one of the many monsters that grapple/restrain at them b/c Misty Step utterly negates them as a threat.
Booming Blade is designed for Bladesingers and makes them a more effective melee combatant than an EK will ever be, Steel Wind Strike likewise is simply better in everyway than actionsurge for a melee combatant. I'd argue the Tasha's Summoning spells also need to be removed, because upcast to 4th, 6th or higher level makes them as effective in combat as a Sword and Board Fighter of the same level as the caster, basically making the caster both a caster and a martial in one.
Invisibility only gives advantage on sight based perception checks. Someone making too much noise is still a problem. Dimension Door only negates stealth if you know where you are going. If someone took the time to think of a way to scout the area and use dimension door to skip passed an area good for them. I will say I’ve watched players turn something that should have been a bunch of small easy combats into absolute mayhem because they tried to use magic and stealth to avoid all the guards and then made a bunch of noise alerting everyone to where they were once inside. Also what good is just the spell caster infiltrating a place alone? Are people forgetting this is party based game. That’s a flaw with the rogue scouting to this day. At least the wizard scout is actually still with the party as their familiars or arcane eye looks around. Rogues and druids get into trouble scouting. Also wizards use limited resource to scout, or gold in the case of the familiar.
Im not sure why act as if spell slots are infinite. Someone who misty steps out of a grapple just expended a spell slot and can’t cast a leveled spell that same turn. Cantrips bring as strong as they are it might not be that big of a deal so I could see misty step being an action for balancing it. Also Misty Step requires the ability to speak to cast it. I know some DMs don’t hold people the components, but if you can’t speak or see then you can’t misty step. Simply restrain, gag, and blindfold spellcasters, or put them in prisons designed for spellcsters theat don’t allow Spellcasting. Also you must hate the new Vortex Warp spell.
Booming Blade does not out pace action surge, or GWM. Bladesingers also have lower AC and HP compared to EK. I will agree that BS is the cooler and more powerful of the two, but not really in melee. The Bladesinger even after Tasha’s made it viable in melee is still better off being a normal caster and avoiding melee. Steel wind strike is just another spell. It has melee flavor but doesn’t have anything to do with melee combat so why are you even mentioning it? If you have a cool magical weapon and use Steel Wind Strike the spell isn’t affected by your weapon. No weapon attack is made during steel wind strike.
A lot of the caster vs warrior conflicts come from the idea that there was suppose to be more encounters per day than what most tables play. That’s combat, social, and skill challenge encounters. Spell casters were meant to to have to decide when to use their spells and when to let others use skills to overcome these encounters. One reason cantrips are so good is because they believed spellcasters would run out of slots and still have a good chunk of adventuring to do. Well in actual gameplay the moment spell casters run out of slots it’s time for a long rest. I’ve seen some parties refuse to short rest because the spell casters were fine, but then force a long rest when the the rogue, fighter were ready to push on.
Now comparing EK to BS in melee by level I only think the Bladesinger is better at level 6. At Level 7 the EK can essentially do the same thing but it does cost them a bonus action. If they both have feats that use their bonus action then maybe BS is better until level 11 were being a fighter just shines in melee with 3 attacks. The BS level 14 ability almost looks to catch up but doesn’t quite get them there. Now while the EK is the superior Gish in melee combat the BS outshines it in every other department. BS has better spell slot progression by far, better out of combat spell options, better in combat spell options, ritual casting, and arcane recovery.
I don’t mind nerfs that make sense. But nerfing magic as a whole just isn’t the “fix” we need. If we were moving to a true new edition I would say nerf the amount of spell slots or nerf cantrips.
The core problem is that there are two ways of solving the problems:
Make spellcasters less fantastic
Make martial characters more fantastic.
And there are people vociferously opposed to both of those.
I would prefer #2 personally long as we aren’t just giving them magic. Martial Exploits and Adrenaline fueled moments of fantastical heroism are my preferred way to fix it. Also I’m okay with bringing down the number of spell slots and/or the growth of cantrip power.
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No, it's because they're non-choices most of the time. Whether +5/-10 is better or worse than attacking normally is a simple function of the target's AC and whether or not you have advantage or disadvantage, and the vast majority of the time it's better.
This hugely depends on your game and magic item load out. IME it's the better choice only ~50% of the time, if that. E.g. if you don't have advantage and are using a Flametongue Greatsword you are better off not using GWM.
Apologies for what's mostly a stream of consciousness.
Been thinking about Fighters and I'm equally not a fan of arbitrary resource powers. The problem for Martials is trying to fit everything into a single action, and how easy the game makes it to be good in combat. Or more accurately, removed ways for it to be bad in combat.
Disarm someone and they should be either more vulnerable or have a cost (losing an attack/action) /risk (opportunity attack) involved in regaining their weapon - doesn't exist in the current rules. Casting a spell in melee with nothing but a wand between you and the dwarf with a Greataxe? You should be punished for letting them get that close - not the case under the rules.
So that's one aspect. Combat needs to be more difficult and dangerous. Then you've got space for Martials to make it less dangerous for themselves and more dangerous for their opponents.
Thoughts on how to give Fighters specifically more combat flexibility without sacrificing damage: design the base class to allow a Bonus Action Blind, Disarm, Intimidate, Shove, Trip, etc. as they progress through the levels. This saves them from losing an attack action (and damage), gives them non-attack options, but still has the opportunity cost of a Bonus Action (granted this is only an opportunity cost if there are viable Bonus Actions the fighter could be using). Some can effectively be 1/encounter (intimidated enemies, like most fear effects, would be immune for next minute/hour after initial effect), others could get worse as your opponent gets wise (they have advantage against your Disarm/Trip/Blind DC if you've already done it against them), etc. This would limit just spamming the strongest option.
You could take this further and design the subclasses to offer alternate Bonus Actions at 3rd level so there's meaningful choice and you expand (e.g. Eldritch Knight could cast a cantrip, Samurai Fighting Spirit, Echo Knight Manifest Echo) or improve your options (Banneret's Rallying Cry, etc).
For out of combat utility, unfortunately that comes down to three issues: skills are very flexible and interchangeable now, Strength (the archetypal Martial ability) is massively undervalued by the game system, and Expertise makes it possible for the Expert class to be better than specialists.
When Acrobatics can be used to do most feats of Athletics, it further weakens Strength/Martial. If the game was designed to be stricter about using skills for certain activities, then you could properly build class powers to allow the swap (e.g. monks and rogues can use Acrobatics in place of Athletics for certain tasks, Fighters can use Athletics with Dex, etc). You could also make the Fighter have Expertise in their maneuver DCs (or if too strong, have the DC be 10+prof+mod rather than 8). Anyone can trip, grapple, shove, etc. but Martials are better, etc. This shouldn't be overpowered compared to spell DCs as the effects would be limited in scale and power, but easier to achieve.
To counter the Dexterity supremacy, my simple solution is make damage always dependent on Strength (allowing specific class feats like monk Martial Arts, etc. circumvent it). Finesse weapons can still hit well, but Strength would become much less of a dump stat.
For Expertise, a houserule I've found works well is giving each class Expertise in one skill that fits their class. Experts still get more breadth of Expertise but can no longer exceed the specialists in their field. [I briefly thought about Fighter Expertise in weapons but that would quickly break bounded accuracy].
So there are a few thoughts that were bouncing around my head. I've not fully thought through what the 3rd order effects would look like and tweaks required to some of the base combat rules but that's where I see them having options. I also appreciate in retrospect that some of it is less focused on the martial/Caster divide.
A few thoughts of my own on this subject:
People have noted in this thread previously that Martials do not deal enough damage to keep up with Casters, and the opportunity cost of doing maneuvers such as shoving, tripping, and disarming makes it not worth doing, especially since these conditions are easily removable and non-persistent. A potential solution to this is to just give Warriors more attacks. I've always thought that Barbarians and Monks should get one more attack, and Fighters should get two more, but the exact number of attacks I could be persuaded on. The opportunity cost of inflicting these conditions becomes much lower when attempting one is only worth 1/6th of your action, rather than 1/2.
Another angle is since these conditions can potentially inflicted by anyone with their action, just make these actions more effective when done by the Warrior group. When a Warrior knocks a creature prone, they get the wind taken out of them and can't attempt to get up until the end of their next turn. A Warrior disarming a weapon so it goes flying, forcing a creature to move out of position to get it or rely on weaker unarmed strikes. Warrior shoves are more powerful, moving creatures 10 or even 15 feet away, and potentially at different angles like the variant Shove Aside rule.
I like your ideas in the last paragraph. Just giving more attacks will not convince players to do alternatives to simple attacks, though. I suspect they will just swing their weapons more, which would keep them fairly boring.
Martials have plenty of single target damage. What they lack is area damage, and zoning, and cc, and utility.
so give them cleave, more than one reaction, and an incentive to take off their armor during sneaky times.
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I often see calculations of damage for a single character build. I have not seen calculations of damage for two characters working together. For example, if one character - a fighter - keeps the focus of monster on them and minimizes the amount of damage taken, can another character do their job well so the collaboration of the two characters deliver more damage than the two characters acting independently?
What you're describing is tanking. Which is not totally absent in 5e (sentinel feat, ancestral guardian barbarian, cavalier fighter) but is not generally considered terribly strong.
Isn't it? With my previous group, my players requested that I don't run combat if, for some reason, the two players who played martial characters couldn't make it to the session. Because I didn't like putting the characters of players who weren't at the table in jeopardy, so instead if there was combat during a session where players weren't present, their characters would be sort of off to the side fighting part of the combat encounter (a fight which they would win instantly the moment the rest of the party defeated the encounter), while the players who were present would fight a somewhat reduced encounter.
And when the Martials weren't there, the group would consistently gets its ass kicked by encounters that, if the Martials were present, they would have steamrolled like they did every other combat. Because the Fighter and the Rogue, working with the Cleric, could keep the monsters off the Wizard and the Artificer, but if it was just the Cleric, the other Casters would get swarmed (even when the number of monsters was reduced because the Fighter and Rogue were fighting some 'off to the side').
(In my current group, people trust each other enough that they let other members of the party drive their character when they can't make it.)
If you run a combat for 5 PCs with 3 PCs, the 3 PCs are likely to do poorly. Also, this is a function of level, wizards don't really have very good battlefield control spells before 5th level spells and I'm confused how you have an artificer who isn't a front line fighter, artificers generally have great armor and lousy offense. Now, if you have a moon druid you can discard the fighters starting at level 2.
I think most players are cool with other party members can do cool stuff. What i see at the tables i play at, is disappointment if some caster can do what you as a non-caster were supposed to be good at.
Suggestion for some quickfixes removing the worst examples ...
0) Booming blade
2) Find traps
2) Knock
5) Skill empowerment
5) Steel wind strike
6) Tenser's Transformation
8) Glibness
9) Foresight
Also perhaps increase levels for some other spells causing minor problems
1) Disguise self (makes disguise kit obsolete)
2) Invisibility (makes stealth obsolete)
2) Misty step (too easy to get out of trouble)
4) Polymorph (one spell for all situation)
Finally lets make the casters 1d4 again. Want more HP ... just spend a feat on Tough.
The nerfs are too strong. You would also be eliminating a play style that many want to enjoy, the spell and sword.
Booming blade is not a problem. It’s weaker than extra attack and it’s great for Eldritch Knight for whom it was designed.
Find Traps is trash. Horrible spell, and is honestly a trap if you use it. Wasted spell slot.
Knock is the most fair version of stepping on another classes toes. It says, “I, the wizard, can open the same chest as the rogue, but every guard in the building will know I did it.
Skill empowerment I guess could be considered as a toe stepper.
Steel wind strike is a fun spell but doesn’t do anything a martial character can. I’m not sure why you chose to have this on your list. Was it flavor?
Tenser’s transformation is a fun spell, but it’s also a trap since it takes 10 minutes to put armor on.
Glibness not sure how this is stepping on toes.
Foresight is better cast on your martial companion.
As far as increasing levels I would also disagree. You are probably seeing bad DMing.
Disguise self has a save and if anyone touches you they know because they phase through the illusion. Disguise kit doesn’t have that problem.
Invisibility only means you can’t be seen. You still need stealth checks to not be heard.
Misty step might be too good 2nd level, but at third it’s too weak to be selected at all. Maybe make it an action.
Polymorph isn’t that great when DMs remember to check the creatures Int mod. To many. DMs treat polymorph like Wild Shape. Once they call out the diffence in Int polymorph isn’t that great.
I think the best way to ensure that casters and martials (in which I include rogues, despite the new class groupings) are balanced versatility/utility wise is make sure that each designed with drawbacks and strengths in mind, and I personally believe that the drawbacks are the strengths: the drawback and strength of martial utility is it's mundanity, and caster utility it's spectacularity.
To demonstrate, let us consider the use of a lock pick to open a door versus the Knock spell. The lock pick, being the mundane tool that it is, is not guaranteed success, but both its success and its failure are quiet, and it is a feat that can be repeated a multitude of times without much effort. Knock being spectacular, however, guarantees both its success and the caster being noticed. This already distinctly separates the occasions in which each will see use; the lock pick will be used in low stake, high volume, or subtle tasks like break ins or opening chests in a treasure hoard, whereas the Knock spell will see use in high stake, limited volume, or aggressive situations, such as when fleeing through a building from guards and a locked door is barring your escape, or on the lock of a cage which is being lowered into a pit of acid.
As a combat example, take the spell Fireball, compared to the martial equivalent of... stabbing everything one at a time until it dies (more on this later). The Fireball is a big, limited-use spell which does a boat load of damage die instantaneously, but it also is indiscriminate, hitting foe and ally alike, and setting the environment ablaze. The Martial on the other hand spends way more time striking down each individual opponent, doing great(ish) damage with each swing, but does not have to worry about hurting their friends or destroying necessary paperwork.
I believe this kind of thinking should apply to all spells, and for the most part it does. However, it is not often that the Martial abilities are designed to be reliable options; in fact martials are sorely lacking any kind of options beyond what everyone else is capable of as a baseline -- the entirety of their utility comes from either a) out-of-combat skill checks, and of the martials only rogues get expertise, or b) sacrificing an attack mid-combat to make an unarmed strike, reducing their damage to apply one of two status effects or move someone 5 feet, neither of which are a middle-ground for any of the options casters have.
This is why I advocate for things from the Battle Master subclass to become baseline for Martial characters as either a bonus action or reaction, specifically manoeuvres like Riposte, Parry, Brace; Tripping, Lunging and Pushing Attack; and even possibly the Defensive Duelist feat. These are things that not only seem intuitive for a Warrior to be able to do, but they provide options for Martial characters to achieve what casters already do spectacularly, in a mundane way: control the battlefield and command space.
I wasn’t originally going to post but saw others did recently so I don’t feel as bad about the necromancy.
Quote from Agilemind >>
For simplicity let's consider level 11-12 and assume the spellcaster using fireball or lightning bolt routinely as a damage spell, and hits 2 enemies with it each turn. That works out to ~12d6 dpr = 42.
Your math is slightly off here. At level 12, highest level of fireball or lightning bolt is 6th. That’s 11d6 dpr for 38.5. Also, your example is slightly off. You say that even the most basic fighter should do equal or more damage than that. Average dps for the sword & board fighter is 28.5. That is just performing the attack action. The caster used a spellslot. To make it fair, the fighter should use action surge. That doubles the damage output to 57. That is more than the fireball or lightning bolt can ever achieve, since at 17th level(9th level spellslot), they do 14d6 for an average of 49. Last thing about the example, there is an assumption that the enemy is failing the Dex save. Should they pass, average at level 12 is 19.25 and at max level is 24.5.
The issue isn’t the damage output here, it’s the frequency of it. Realistically, fighters should get more uses of action surge. It would deal with the issue of damage output quite nicely.
This is why the problem will never the solved. Because anytime a nerf to casters is suggested there are a dozen people who complain it is too much of a nerf. Invisibility makes you unseeable and gives Adv on Stealth checks (equivalent to +5 bonus) which make a caster with Invisibility better at stealth than a rogue with expertise in stealth until ~level 11, at which point the caster has Dimension Door which can negate the need for stealth entirely as they can just teleport past all the guards, or they can Polymorph into a cat / dog / rat and walk past the guards.
Misty Step should be eliminated entirely, and Fly should be moved to 4th level as both allow PCs to just skip over any type of hazardous terrain : crossing a river, chasm, getting onto a high ledge, avoiding traps, escaping restaints, escaping prisons, etc... etc... Once the party gets to level 5 it's quite pointless to throw one of the many monsters that grapple/restrain at them b/c Misty Step utterly negates them as a threat.
Booming Blade is designed for Bladesingers and makes them a more effective melee combatant than an EK will ever be, Steel Wind Strike likewise is simply better in everyway than actionsurge for a melee combatant. I'd argue the Tasha's Summoning spells also need to be removed, because upcast to 4th, 6th or higher level makes them as effective in combat as a Sword and Board Fighter of the same level as the caster, basically making the caster both a caster and a martial in one.
I don’t recall invisibility giving advantage on stealth, I don’t think obscurement does either, but I could be wrong. Stealth relies on more than just seeing.
I don’t know if Misty Step needs to be removed but it could be changed. Same for fly, which has always been an issue, especially with flying races. Which some DMs ban. But I don’t think they will change the level so it is up to the DM to realize this can be an issue and plan for it. Not the best resolution, but probably the only real option.
And Booming Blade is more an issue of Eldritch Knight not being the best subclass and Bladesinger’s extra attack a little too powerful. Not the cantrip itself. At level 11, EK are usually better off not using BB/GFB.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Invisibility only gives advantage on sight based perception checks. Someone making too much noise is still a problem. Dimension Door only negates stealth if you know where you are going. If someone took the time to think of a way to scout the area and use dimension door to skip passed an area good for them. I will say I’ve watched players turn something that should have been a bunch of small easy combats into absolute mayhem because they tried to use magic and stealth to avoid all the guards and then made a bunch of noise alerting everyone to where they were once inside. Also what good is just the spell caster infiltrating a place alone? Are people forgetting this is party based game. That’s a flaw with the rogue scouting to this day. At least the wizard scout is actually still with the party as their familiars or arcane eye looks around. Rogues and druids get into trouble scouting. Also wizards use limited resource to scout, or gold in the case of the familiar.
Im not sure why act as if spell slots are infinite. Someone who misty steps out of a grapple just expended a spell slot and can’t cast a leveled spell that same turn. Cantrips bring as strong as they are it might not be that big of a deal so I could see misty step being an action for balancing it. Also Misty Step requires the ability to speak to cast it. I know some DMs don’t hold people the components, but if you can’t speak or see then you can’t misty step. Simply restrain, gag, and blindfold spellcasters, or put them in prisons designed for spellcsters theat don’t allow Spellcasting. Also you must hate the new Vortex Warp spell.
Booming Blade does not out pace action surge, or GWM. Bladesingers also have lower AC and HP compared to EK. I will agree that BS is the cooler and more powerful of the two, but not really in melee. The Bladesinger even after Tasha’s made it viable in melee is still better off being a normal caster and avoiding melee. Steel wind strike is just another spell. It has melee flavor but doesn’t have anything to do with melee combat so why are you even mentioning it? If you have a cool magical weapon and use Steel Wind Strike the spell isn’t affected by your weapon. No weapon attack is made during steel wind strike.
A lot of the caster vs warrior conflicts come from the idea that there was suppose to be more encounters per day than what most tables play. That’s combat, social, and skill challenge encounters. Spell casters were meant to to have to decide when to use their spells and when to let others use skills to overcome these encounters. One reason cantrips are so good is because they believed spellcasters would run out of slots and still have a good chunk of adventuring to do. Well in actual gameplay the moment spell casters run out of slots it’s time for a long rest. I’ve seen some parties refuse to short rest because the spell casters were fine, but then force a long rest when the the rogue, fighter were ready to push on.
Now comparing EK to BS in melee by level I only think the Bladesinger is better at level 6. At Level 7 the EK can essentially do the same thing but it does cost them a bonus action. If they both have feats that use their bonus action then maybe BS is better until level 11 were being a fighter just shines in melee with 3 attacks. The BS level 14 ability almost looks to catch up but doesn’t quite get them there. Now while the EK is the superior Gish in melee combat the BS outshines it in every other department. BS has better spell slot progression by far, better out of combat spell options, better in combat spell options, ritual casting, and arcane recovery.
I don’t mind nerfs that make sense. But nerfing magic as a whole just isn’t the “fix” we need. If we were moving to a true new edition I would say nerf the amount of spell slots or nerf cantrips.
The core problem is that there are two ways of solving the problems:
And there are people vociferously opposed to both of those.
I would prefer #2 personally long as we aren’t just giving them magic. Martial Exploits and Adrenaline fueled moments of fantastical heroism are my preferred way to fix it.
Also I’m okay with bringing down the number of spell slots and/or the growth of cantrip power.