That's a rather absolute dichotomy. It would probably be more accurate to say that in general, martials are better equipped to sustain a high consistent DPR, while casters are better at burst and AoE. You throw a few waves at a party and the casters are gonna start flagging on DPR while the martials will hold fairly steady.
No, my original version is more accurate. A five target fireball where two targets save is an average of 112 damage, a tier 2 martial character has nothing remotely comparable. If you want to deal with waves, that's what sustained zoning spells are for, something like spirit guardians can easily add up to hundreds of damage.
As for martials not lagging: they stop doing damage once they're dead.
Because of limited spell slots. At low levels using your spells for utility leaves you without spells for combat. Which is why it’s a fair trade at low levels. It becomes a problem around 6th and noticeable by 8th. Most casters especially Wizards seem to have enough slots and versatility to cast their way out of any situation by 8th. Making cantrips not scale could be a nerf that forces casters to be more careful with their spell use. I just don’t like nerfing. It’s better to buff.
1) He didn't "give them a scare," he one-shot them. "when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead." You could argue that was Weird or Phantasmal Force or something rather than Lightning Bolt or something - but either way, not a cantrip.
Oh, I remember that now. No precise equivalent in 5e, but thunderwave is an adequate replacement. I didn't say everything he did was a cantrip, but he's certainly not high level in D&D terms, fifth level is plenty.
There's a reason people invented E6 (max level changes from 20 to 6; further progression is just feats) back in the 3.5 era, and is does work in 5e, though it does mean an awful lot of stuff ceases to have purpose.
This might shock you (heh) but thunderwave produces, funnily enough, thunder. Not flashes of lightning or burning smells.
And even if you're somehow right and that was some low-level spell, guess who can't bloody do that? Aragorn. Legolas. Gimli. Boromir. So even if you were right and Tolkien's world was exclusively the lowest of low-magic, there's still considerable disparity between its martials and casters. So drop it already. If you want this kind of equality and 4e somehow isn't doing it for you, try Exalted.
Why it is a problem that they have "less" utility than casters? Martials are better at killing things than casters, and casters are better at getting the party to the things that need killing than martials. These are two distinct roles that gives both character types a niche to fulfill. If a barbarian could scream and teleport the entire party to another plane, or a fighter could punch the ground so hard they made a whole fortress appear for them and 1000 refugees to sleep in, then we might as well eliminate casters entirely because martials would be equal or better at everything than casters.
Martials don't need "fixing" because: 1) Martials have a niche that they are the best at and it's killing stuff. 2) Right now under the current ruleset you can build martials that are awesome at some utility tasks just by picking the right feats, races, and/or backgrounds. 3) Everyone can take the "Help" action to participate in every scene even if they aren't the best at the relevant skills. 4) Everyone can be involved in planning & debate to solve problems which doesn't involve any mechanics. 5) Spellcasters have limited resources which means a martial solving a problem without expending resources is always better than a spellcaster solving it even if the martial solution isn't guaranteed success.
The way to solve the "martial caster divide" is simply to reduce the number of spellslots casters get so that using a spell to solve a problem is a significant cost.
1) Not only are Warriors not the best at killing stuff, but most people that I know and that I've seen want to play a Martial that can do stuff outside-of-combat too. Very few people want to be extremely good at one thing and feel completely useless when other situations arise. As shocking as this may be, I actually agree with Yurei that classes should not be designed as hyper-specialists.
2) So what? Especially for newer players, Warriors who want to be useful outside-of-combat and still be a Warrior should not have to go out of their way to make a whole build around that. Even then, the fact that the classes do not support this pillar of play ensures that casters who don't even try will likely still be better at it.
3) The help action is boring, and it makes you kinda feel useless to do it. Not only does your character not actually get to do anything interesting - helping another player hopefully roll higher isn't that enjoyable - but one of the chief problems with this is that casters often can solve problems without even requiring rolls. This would render the help action useless.
4) It doesn't feel very fun to be told "You can't do anything, but you can maybe-kinda-sorta impact the actions of people that can." Planning is not as fun or cool as actually doing something, and there is often little reason to debate whether or not the problem should be solved by the caster or whether or not the other players should just stand around doing nothing. Also, time pressure prevents infinite planning time and tells the caster to do their cool stuff quickly. Ignoring all the factors, sometimes the caster just wants to solve a problem with a spell in a cool way and be happy about it. Forcing them to endless planning for their really cool but also really quick and simple fix is not fair or fun.
5) Do your campaigns not utilize time pressure? Warriors should rarely be able to infinitely fumble around, and failing to break down doors or messing up at certain tasks can have consequences (for instance, slamming into a door and failing to break it might make a loud noise, allowing the monsters in the room beyond to plan an ambush). This tends to heavily favor quick solutions that bypass rolls, which casters have a lot of.
At higher levels especially, low level spell slots are easily expendable and would have rarely been used in combat anyways. At lower levels where those slots matter more, cantrips can actually be a big thorn in your enemies' sides.
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All in all, no group of classes should be designed to only be useful in some areas and pillars of play but be useless in others. It is not fun or enjoyable to do nothing for hours upon hours of the game. People should not have to go out of their way and seek options just to function semi-decently outside or inside combat. And even then, a couple feats is not enough to make a Warrior be half as useful outside-of-combat as a caster is.
They clearly have less utility than casters. Which none of you have argue against.Your only arguments have been don’t fix martials because I like realism in a game of make believe were people throw lightning bolts and fly.
More accurately, I said something along the lines of "Give Martials more utility outside-of-combat without making it so their base classes involve shooting massive lightning bolts and flying around."
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Even then, the fact that the classes do not support this pillar of play
But they do???? And as evidence that people don't actually care about this, I submit the Monk & the Ranger which gets a ton of out of combat utility and people hate them.
Barbarian : Danger Sense to support their style of trap finding / disarming - i.e. run into the trap and just don't take that much damage from it. Fast Movement & no heavy armour - supports sneaking around, escaping, chasing down people / animals STR-based - supports long jumping, climbing, swimming, CON-based - supports swimming, exploring rooms filled with toxic gas, drinking challenges Indomitable Might - you now autosucceed all but Impossible strength checks
Subclasses - Totem gets utility features at level 3,6 and 10, Guardians get divination utility at level 10, Beserker gets utility at 10 (6th level ability can also be used for utility in niche situations), Wild Magic gets utility at level 6
Fighter: 2x Fighting Styles offer utility Subclasses - Arcane Archer utility at level 3, Battlemaster 2x maneuvers offer utility + 7th level feature, Cavalier 2x utility at level 3, Champion utility at level 7, Eldritch Knight - utility through spells, Psi Warrior - utility at level 3, 7, 18, Purple Dragon - utility at 7th level, Rune Knight - utility with every rune + size increase, Samurai - utility at level 3 & 7
Monk - step of the wind at 3rd level, slow fall at 4th level, fast movement, run up walls & across water at 9th, tongues at 13th, Empty body at 18th, Subclasses - Mercy utility at 3,6,17; Shadow utility at 3, 6, 11; Dragon utility at 3,6,11,17; Astral utility at 6; Drunken utility at 3, 11; Four Elements can have lots of utility or none depending on choices; Kensei tiny utility at 3; Death utility at 6; Open Hand utility at 11;
Ranger gets a billion utility things including spells, Paladin also gets Charisma skills + spells.
casters often can solve problems without even requiring rolls
Could you explain what exactly problems you are talking about? Because I can think of tons that casters cannot solve by just using a spell. Things like looking for clues, tracking down a suspect, finding a hidden compartment / safe, getting a magic item out of the vault of a temple, getting past a puzzle door, getting the whole party through a hallway filled with swinging axe blades, pulling open a giant plug at the bottom of a pool, freeing prisoners from cages without alerting the bandits that have captured them, getting a herd of pigs to move out of the way of the party's cart, ...
Honestly this seems more like a problem of the DMG being a bit trash and leaving junior DMs without clear guidance on tier appropriate challenges. Tier 2 is deliberately designed to be a shift in the game away from basic survival type challenges to intelligent enemies with plots & schemes that the party must disrupt & vanquish. Tier 3 is another shift where you're no longer fighting an individual bad guy but an entire evil faction that threatens the whole country or continent. Then Tier 4 is the final shift to fighting gods & world ending threats.
So a DM should expect that some highway bandits trying to rob the players as they sleep is appropriate for Tier 1 play, but not Tier 2+, same with a basic pit trap or bucket of acid on a string connected to a door. These are Tier 1 challenges that are fun & appropriate for Tier 1 players, the DM should not expect Tier 3 players to find those things difficult. Tier 3 players should be facing challenges like escaping from a room that is filling with acid, crossing the River Styx, sneaking into a fortress filled with cultists and surrounded by a moat of lava, or rescuing prisoners from a hive of mindflayers.
Barbarians need a lot of ability scores to be high to succeed. Most people don't reach level 20, so I'm not taking the 20th-level feature into account. Therefore, Dex will mostly be rather low (probably 14 if not less, for about the entire game), unless you specifically play a Dex-based Barbarian, which is a heavy investment. This means that your Dex saves, even with an advantage, aren't that great. You're not running full speed in the dungeon to trigger all traps because you'll die. Even if you don't die from the traps, you take damage, which is most likely isn't halved by any resistance because you're not wasting that precious rage just to trigger traps. Then when the next fight comes, you'll be downed fairly quickly. Optimised Barbarians will wear the best medium armour, which imposes a disadvantage on Stealth. Of course, you don't have to optimise, but you're losing AC, because only rarely will your Unarmored Defence be greater than armour. Medium armour already includes +2 Dex (which is your modifier, most likely), and then your Con must be 18 to match a Breastplate, or 20 to match Half-Plate. Fast movement for the purpose of chasing enemies is very helpful, but not at all comparable to a level 1 caster with any ranged cantrip, not to mention levelled spells. Lastly, most ability checks can be trivialised by various spells, which get worse and worse the higher level your party gets and the casters can freely cast more spells of higher levels.
Fighters get only one fighting style unless you pick one specific subclass or a feat. Most fighting styles don't offer any utility, only a boring numerical boost to your attack/defence. The very few other options just aren't good because you need that boring +2 to damage. None of the Subclasses offers something truly helpful (utility-wise). Only situational features, at best. I'm excluding Eldritch Knight here because giving a martial character spells isn't the way to solve the martial-caster problem.
Monks do have many utility features, but many of them come at very high levels (>10) or cost Ki to use. Even in combat Monks struggle to keep up, thanks to too many Ki-based features. Their speed and ability to walk on various surfaces are easily matched by low-levelled spells. Take Spider Climb, [Tooltip Not Found] or Jump, for example. Most of what you tagged as a utility in their subclasses isn't truly utility either. How is calligraphy/painter supplies for Kensei, or Tranquility which goes away on your first combat (and does nothing out of combat) compare to anything really?
The rogues are pretty good. Their abilities are rather reliable (especially at high levels, but not only) and free to use, so it's unlikely your Wizard will cast Knock if there's a Rogue around. I think Rogues have always been a special case.
Ranger spells are pretty limited since you only know very few (4 spells at level 5 (and 6)?) and most of them will be combat-focused since you can't change them except one when you level up. Besides, most of the Ranger's utility spells are also available to most casters. Besides, once again, spells given to a martial aren't a fix to the martial-caster problem. They do have a few extremely situational features, and that's why they've been considered the worst class by most pre-Tasha's. Tasha's improved on Rangers, but they now have less of that situational utility. The only exception is the Fey Wanderer, but that's still mostly outclassed by any Cha-based character.
Paladin suffers from a lot of ability score dependency, so without a dip into Warlock (which I'll rule out because that's irrelevant to the discussion), your Cha will be rather low, and so most of your features that can somehow be useful out of combat (situationally), don't work very well. Their spell availability offers more utility than the Ranger's, but not only will I once again remind you that spells given to martials isn't a good fix, but also the paladin will need those slots for smites, or other combat buffs.
As for your last question, let's see. I'm mixing spell lists here, but most of these spells are either available to most or to Wizards/Clerics. Besides, Bards can get whatever they want at certain levels. Looking for clues? Okay, that's rather vague, but many Divination spells will trivialise most problems. In addition, no Monk will ever have a higher Int than a Wizard, so any Investigation roll is still in the Wizard's favour. Perceptions checks are used too often, and Casters still will find it easier to fit Wisdom into their build than martial characters (except Monk or Ranger, but Monk is extremely MAD). It's true that a roll is needed, but notice that he said "often", not "always". Tracking down a suspect? Speak With Animals, Beast Sense, Detect Thoughts, [Tooltip Not Found] (maybe). Possibly even Locate Object or Locate Animals or Plants. Lastly, and above all, Locate Creature and Scrying. Finding a hidden compartment/safe? Find Traps. Retrieving some object? First off, Locate Object. But if you're already there, Knock to open the lock, if there's one. Then, Mage Hand if the object weighs <10 lbs. Otherwise, I'm not so sure how a martial has any advantage over a caster here. If you want to say the item is out of reach, Fly or even Levitate. Getting past a puzzle door? Plenty of Divination spells. Regardless, that usually doesn't require a roll at all, but to solve a puzzle. Getting the whole party through a hallway filled with swinging axe blades? Sounds like various teleportation spells. Pulling open a giant plug at the bottom of a pool? Just use Create or Destroy Water instead. Control Water, Water Breathing or Water Walk might also solve the problem. The last two can also be solved in similar ways. Especially that last one, just make some noise with Thunderclap.
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Now, to the topic, after a reply much longer than I first intended. Reduce the number of spell slots, especially low-level spell slots at high levels, and balance is achieved.
Additionally, give martial characters an option to build around (or as secondary) a mental stat, without using spells. A Fey Wanderer Ranger with Druidic Warrior and Shillelagh is one example. Your Wisdom score now governs enough that it is both useful in combatant out of combat, but more importantly, you're also able to increase it without sacrificing much. Or in other words, like any Cha-based caster. The next best example is Rogues, who will most likely use Dex for attacking so that covers both Attack and defence and with enough features that allow them to be evasive (starting at level 2 already, and not some high level that is rarely played), they don't need to invest too much into Con. This allows them to invest in Int/Cha/Wis enough to be actually good with those. The Inquisitive subclass actually rewards you for doing so for Wis. Swashbuckler does the same with Cha. Sadly, the only one that does anything for Int is Arcane Trickster, and here again, we are met with spells, which is not the point. How come MASTERMIND has nothing to do with Intelligence, at all?
14 Dex with advantage is plenty, especially when you have high Con, the biggest hit die in the entire game, and likely resistance to all physical damage when a fight breaks out. Barbarian's problem starts at 9th level, all the features below that are great. I agree that Unarmored Defense can be a trap early on, but you can simply wear medium armor and ignore it. And unlike the monk's, theirs works with a shield if you're really hurting for defenses.
No one is arguing divinations aren't useful, but they aren't mandatory either unless your GM is being a jerk. If they rule that your barbarian and ranger can't even follow some tracks without casting a spell, you would do well to find a different table to play at, and that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Lastly, they ARE NERFING SPELLCASTING, see the new preparations system which there is an entirely separate thread *****ing about. Casters can't load up on high level nukes + utility anymore, their preparations equal their spell slot progression now which makes them much less flexible and therefore more reliant on the martials in the party to cover their blind spots. Sounds like a win to me.
"...i.e. run into the trap and just don't take that much damage from it."
I was referring to this. With 14 Dex and an advantage, I will at least try to find the trap first and disarm it. High Con is not necessarily the case for every Barbarian (even if it should be, sometimes your stats just don't work out), and even if it is, you're the one taking the hits in combat, so you don't want to reach combat with <50% hp already, wasted on traps. Unless you're running Path of the Beast, with the Bite option specifically, but even then, why? Either way, I doubt you'd waste a charge of Rage on running through a corridor to trigger traps, so no resistance. That doesn't even take into consideration the option that many traps might involve poison.
Then, I was referring to this:
"...& no heavy armour - supports sneaking around..."
Of course, you can wear med armour, but then you're most likely suffering a disadvantage on Stealth. That was my point. Breastplate doesn't impose a disadvantage, and is pretty good, but also costs 400 gold, so you won't count on that early on.
Yeah, divinations aren't mandatory, but they allow you to solve problems without rolling. Trying to answer this:
casters often can solve problems without even requiring rolls
Could you explain what exactly problems you are talking about?
I wouldn't call this new preparation system a nerf tbh, for most classes. For the Bard, this change means fewer spells, but the spell level distributions were about the same due to the way they learned spells. They now prepare spells, which is ultimately a buff in versatility. Not that I'm complaining about it, I think it is better this way, but in no way is that a nerf. For Cleric and Druid, this is indeed a nerf, but honestly, those two have plenty of other features to make up for it. Even if they change the current version of the Druid from Wildshape-focused to spell-focused, they'll give them other features as the Clerics got (and I mean, that's basically the case already, but what I mean is if the features they get allow them to actually use spells and those features together). Besides, while it means the spellcasters will have fewer high-level nukes, those low-level spell slots, at a high level, won't be used for Thunderwave, will they? While it forces them to pick lower-level utility spells, these are utility options nonetheless.
The real question is how it will be handled for the arcane casters. As it stands, this will be a big buff for Sorcerers, who will now have more spells than before, and the ability to prepare new ones every day. For Warlocks they'll definitely change things up because there's no way the Warlock will only know two spells. For the Wizard, I doubt they'll keep the same preparation system either. For them, it will clearly be a nerf, but also a very big shift in the flavour of the class. Either the Wizard will get a different system, or they'll get that plus the ability to learn spells indefinitely in their spellbook, from which they'll be able to cast rituals without preparing them, like now. Or something of that sort. We'll have to wait and see.
Tracking down a suspect? Speak With Animals, Beast Sense, Detect Thoughts, [Tooltip Not Found] (maybe). Possibly even Locate Object or Locate Animals or Plants. Lastly, and above all, Locate Creature and Scrying. Finding a hidden compartment/safe? Find Traps. Retrieving some object? First off, Locate Object. But if you're already there, Knock to open the lock, if there's one. Then, Mage Hand if the object weighs <10 lbs. Otherwise, I'm not so sure how a martial has any advantage over a caster here. If you want to say the item is out of reach, Fly or even Levitate. Getting past a puzzle door? Plenty of Divination spells. Regardless, that usually doesn't require a roll at all, but to solve a puzzle. Getting the whole party through a hallway filled with swinging axe blades? Sounds like various teleportation spells. Pulling open a giant plug at the bottom of a pool? Just use Create or Destroy Water instead. Control Water, Water Breathing or Water Walk might also solve the problem. The last two can also be solved in similar ways. Especially that last one, just make some noise with Thunderclap.
Have you actually read what these spell do? Find traps does not location hidden compartments, all the locate spells require you to know specific information about what it is you are trying to locate. Beast Sense is largely useless, and Speak with Animals doesn't give the animal intelligence so you need to find an animal with some degree of intelligence yourself which usually means a .... what's that?... oh yeah - a SKILL CHECK! There is only 1 teleport spell that can take more than 2 people per casting and that's at 7th level so you'd be an absolute idiot to use it to go 100 ft down a hallway, and without it you're looking at 5x 4th level spells to teleport the whole party 100 ft - again Who in their right mind is doing this?????
Most of your other suggestions are non-solutions too, sure they might help with the problem but they don't solve it single handedly.
Oops, the find traps one is a mistake, you're right.
But yeah, regarding the rest, I assume you know who/what you're looking for. If that's not the case, we return to the "often" vs "always". Still though, use Beast Sense on some bird (sure, you need to touch it first, but that can be managed) and you can see everything from above. Pretty useful surveillance. Speak with Animals doesn't give animals intelligence, but animals aren't dumb either. Well, depends on your DM and animal. They wouldn't be able to tell you much, but perhaps something like direction, or memorable features. Crows are particularly intelligent animals, able to recognise Humans, and should be pretty abundant in most settings. I don't think looking for a crow actually requires a skill check, though to be fair most DMs will ask for one because people just like to ask for needless Perception rolls.
Dimension Door takes only two people, true, but that's half of most parties, or a third of most others. Let the others cross on their own, you've saved yourself the risk of going through. Or don't, but regardless the frail Wizard isn't going to be the one disarming traps, I bet. And yeah, that's exactly the problem with casters. You create a problem and they just cancel it, while non-casters have no way to deal with it. There's no way to challenge both types equally unless you give some puzzle that challenges the players directly. But then, you're not even roleplaying anymore.
But I don't understand what you mean by non-solutions. Usually, your party will find unintended solutions to problems because they don't know the intended one. You can't tell them "Uh, nah. This doesn't work because that's not what I wanted you to do." So yes, unless you want to pull the huge plug at the bottom of the pool to pass through it, I see no reason why any of the spells I mentioned (and Alter Self, now that I think of it) don't trivialise the problem. And even if it is the intention, pulling an object underwater is harder than pulling it out of the water, so by removing the water/being able to breathe underwater, you solve 90% of the problem.
And regarding higher tiers of play, this matter only gets worse. Since a non-caster is limited to mostly realistic solutions, they have no way to cross the moat of lava. Meanwhile, a caster? At third level, you get the ability to levitate over it or teleport to the other side (if it's <30 feet wide, which it probably is). Higher levels give you even simpler solutions.
Tracking down a suspect? Speak With Animals, Beast Sense, Detect Thoughts, [Tooltip Not Found] (maybe). Possibly even Locate Object or Locate Animals or Plants. Lastly, and above all, Locate Creature and Scrying. Finding a hidden compartment/safe? Find Traps. Retrieving some object? First off, Locate Object. But if you're already there, Knock to open the lock, if there's one. Then, Mage Hand if the object weighs <10 lbs. Otherwise, I'm not so sure how a martial has any advantage over a caster here. If you want to say the item is out of reach, Fly or even Levitate. Getting past a puzzle door? Plenty of Divination spells. Regardless, that usually doesn't require a roll at all, but to solve a puzzle. Getting the whole party through a hallway filled with swinging axe blades? Sounds like various teleportation spells. Pulling open a giant plug at the bottom of a pool? Just use Create or Destroy Water instead. Control Water, Water Breathing or Water Walk might also solve the problem. The last two can also be solved in similar ways. Especially that last one, just make some noise with Thunderclap.
Have you actually read what these spell do? Find traps does not location hidden compartments, all the locate spells require you to know specific information about what it is you are trying to locate. Beast Sense is largely useless, and Speak with Animals doesn't give the animal intelligence so you need to find an animal with some degree of intelligence yourself which usually means a .... what's that?... oh yeah - a SKILL CHECK! There is only 1 teleport spell that can take more than 2 people per casting and that's at 7th level so you'd be an absolute idiot to use it to go 100 ft down a hallway, and without it you're looking at 5x 4th level spells to teleport the whole party 100 ft - again Who in their right mind is doing this?????
Most of your other suggestions are non-solutions too, sure they might help with the problem but they don't solve it single handedly.
Take the L, his list is solid. I’m confused how you can try to argue it’s not. Find traps is a trap but everything else works. Also if we have to use skill spell casters have enhance ability, guidance, and that new knowledge spell that gives them proficiency in skills they don’t have. Even in situations that they use it on someone else they are always contributing to the solution. Also he forgot to mention telekinesis, vortex warp, animate object and all the summon spells. Worried about traps. Send a couple summons or animated objects down the hall to trigger the traps. Also Wizards are usually the best investigators and Clerics and Druids are the best at perception checks. Expertise helps offset this but Rogues don’t usually focus on Wisdom. Usually only a 12-14 Wis unless they rolled and rolled well.
Also if we have to use skill spell casters have enhance ability, guidance, and that new knowledge spell that gives them proficiency in skills they don’t have. Even in situations that they use it on someone else they are always contributing to the solution.
Yes, by spending a resource the casters can achieve parity with the classes that can be effective without doing so. A resource with considerable opportunity costs, no less. Working as intended?
Also he forgot to mention telekinesis, vortex warp, animate object and all the summon spells. Worried about traps. Send a couple summons or animated objects down the hall to trigger the traps.
I've been seeing this argument since 3.5 and it always amuses me. Sometimes setting off the traps is still bad even when you can do it from relative safety. Sometimes the goal is to get into the place undetected, not merely with whole skin. Sometimes triggering the trap still puts you in danger or impedes your progress even if your summon does it from down the hall or around the corner (e.g. it causes a cave-in or flood.) In those cases, the class that can actually disarm the trap rather than simply triggering it away from you and hoping for the best is superior.
Also if we have to use skill spell casters have enhance ability, guidance, and that new knowledge spell that gives them proficiency in skills they don’t have. Even in situations that they use it on someone else they are always contributing to the solution.
Yes, by spending a resource the casters can achieve parity with the classes that can be effective without doing so. A resource with considerable opportunity costs, no less. Working as intended?
Also he forgot to mention telekinesis, vortex warp, animate object and all the summon spells. Worried about traps. Send a couple summons or animated objects down the hall to trigger the traps.
I've been seeing this argument since 3.5 and it always amuses me. Sometimes setting off the traps is still bad even when you can do it from relative safety. Sometimes the goal is to get into the place undetected, not merely with whole skin. Sometimes triggering the trap still puts you in danger or impedes your progress even if your summon does it from down the hall or around the corner (e.g. it causes a cave-in or flood.) In those cases, the class that can actually disarm the trap rather than simply triggering it away from you and hoping for the best is superior.
For point 1, clearly its not working as intended otherwise this discussion would not exist. Resource expenditure could work as a mechanic but not while everyone is working on a different mechanic.
Point 2, sure sometimes using a summon might still be bad, you know what might be worse the rogue rolling a 5.
For point 1, clearly its not working as intended otherwise this discussion would not exist. Resource expenditure could work as a mechanic but not while everyone is working on a different mechanic.
Point 2, sure sometimes using a summon might still be bad, you know what might be worse the rogue rolling a 5.
1) It's the DM's job to make resource expenditure matter, not WotC's. Your DM controls the encounters you face and the frequency with which you can recover your resources.
2) Thanks for pointing out another advantage of having a Rogue, it's a little thing called Reliable Talent 😏
For point 1, clearly its not working as intended otherwise this discussion would not exist. Resource expenditure could work as a mechanic but not while everyone is working on a different mechanic.
Point 2, sure sometimes using a summon might still be bad, you know what might be worse the rogue rolling a 5.
1) It's the DM's job to make resource expenditure matter, not WotC's. Your DM controls the encounters you face and the frequency with which you can recover your resources.
2) Thanks for pointing out another advantage of having a Rogue, it's a little thing called Reliable Talent 😏
1) its a impossible task to balance, giving the Dm that job is a cop out.
2) at high levels, for most of the game people never see it and the d20 has more swing than their abilities.
1) It's the DM's job to make resource expenditure matter, not WotC's. Your DM controls the encounters you face and the frequency with which you can recover your resources.
The point of rules is to make life easier for the DM. Resource expenditure systems like D&D make life more difficult for the DM (one of the virtues of the Gritty Realism variant in the DMG is that it basically eliminates long rests during adventures).
For point 1, clearly its not working as intended otherwise this discussion would not exist. Resource expenditure could work as a mechanic but not while everyone is working on a different mechanic.
Point 2, sure sometimes using a summon might still be bad, you know what might be worse the rogue rolling a 5.
1) It's the DM's job to make resource expenditure matter, not WotC's. Your DM controls the encounters you face and the frequency with which you can recover your resources.
2) Thanks for pointing out another advantage of having a Rogue, it's a little thing called Reliable Talent 😏
1) Oh yeah that’s fair if you spend a resource you can do really powerful things to help the party.
Yo Fighter spend a resource to do powerful things to help the party outside of combat.
Base Fighter “I don’t have any resources check my subclasses”
Champion “I got none”
Arcane Archer “I have literally 2 I think I need these for combat”
Battle Master “Hey they added some maneuvers that I can use outside of combat, but they aren’t as good as spells.”
Eldritch knight “I have spell slots, but they limited my spell selection a lot.”
Purple Dragon Knight “I’m actually just poorly designed, please stop looking at me.”
Rune Knight, “I can do some things with my resource especially if they are strength related and I have advantage at some skill checks, but can someone hit me with guidance”
Psi Warrior, “I too have some utility stuff. Not much but some.”
Samurai “I didn’t come with a spendable resource either but I can combine my Wis and Cha for persuasion checks. Still have less persuasive ability than a bard.”
Yo Barbarian spend a resource to help the Party outside of combat
All Barbarians “You mean rages. Okay now I’m mad does that help.”
Yo Monk your turn I know you got a spendable resource
All Monks “if tables short rested enough I would be down for that, but my monk abilities get expensive. Also there isn’t much in my design to help out”
Okay Rogue what do you have for resources spend
Most Rogues- “We don’t have resources”
Arcane Trickster- “I’ll help when I can since I’m a spell caster”
Soul knife- stares you in the eye and you hear in your mind“ I don’t get many but I got you”
So it’s like taking your kids to a theme park, but only giving some of the kids money. Then you saying that it’s fair that the kids who have money get to do more because they have money to spend. You say the other kids get to do all the free stuff, but the kids with money get to do the free stuff as well.
2. Someone failing the skill check will set the traps off as well. Oh and the party will be within the trap’s range. Also if the goal is not to set the trap off the Cleric or Druid are probably the ones who noticed the trap because of high wisdom and thus high perception. Oddly the find traps spell’s only, and completely wasteful, use is to tell you if there is a trap nearby. If find traps was a 1st level spell it might be worth while for what it does. Anyway it’s spellcasters who have the edge here as well. Rogues reliable talent is at 11th level. Most games are in their last chapter by then. Oh and rogues can still fail high DC checks even if they always roll at minimum 10 on the dice.
If you want a game where all classes get powers they can use X time per day then play 4e! The whole design of 5e is that martials get unlimited use / fast recharge abilities that each use of them is less powerful, while casters get limited resources that are more powerful. We can argue about whether casters' resources are sufficiently limited (IMO they are not, casters get way too many spellslots - and DMs are far too kind in the number of LRs parties get) but that's the fundamental design of 5e, to change that is to go back to 4e.
1) It's the DM's job to make resource expenditure matter, not WotC's. Your DM controls the encounters you face and the frequency with which you can recover your resources.
The point of rules is to make life easier for the DM. Resource expenditure systems like D&D make life more difficult for the DM (one of the virtues of the Gritty Realism variant in the DMG is that it basically eliminates long rests during adventures).
Without resource expenditure then magic needs to be nerfed hard to be no better than a skill check. I mean getting rid of spell slots entirely and only giving casters cantrips and ritual spells is one solution. I guess, we can all hope that the explosion of new RPG systems by different creators will lead to two distinct game systems: Anime Martial + High Magic (doesn't mutants & masterminds already do something like this?), and Realistic Martial + Weak Magic. So the two factions can both be happy playing different games.
Why isn't it a problem at lower levels? Most of the utility options casters get, they get at lower levels:
Stealth/Infiltration: Invisibility (2nd level), Pass without Trace (2nd level), Disguise Self (1st level), Sleep (1st level), Darkness (2nd level), Silence (2nd level), Knock (2nd level), Minor Illusion (cantrip), Silent Image (1st level)
Social : Detect Thoughts (2nd level), Zone of Truth (2nd level), Charm Person (1st level), Suggestion (2nd level), Friends (cantrip), Enhance Ability (2nd level), Comprehend Languages (1st level)
Exploration/Survival : Goodberry (1st level), Location Object (2nd Level), Detect Magic (1st level), Alarm (1st level), Find Familiar (1st level), Mage Hand (cantrip), Message (cantrip)
Skipping encounters : Sleep (1st level), Misty Step (2nd level), Levitate (2nd level), Silent Image (1st level), Augury (2nd level), Floating Disk (1st level),
No, my original version is more accurate. A five target fireball where two targets save is an average of 112 damage, a tier 2 martial character has nothing remotely comparable. If you want to deal with waves, that's what sustained zoning spells are for, something like spirit guardians can easily add up to hundreds of damage.
As for martials not lagging: they stop doing damage once they're dead.
Because of limited spell slots. At low levels using your spells for utility leaves you without spells for combat. Which is why it’s a fair trade at low levels. It becomes a problem around 6th and noticeable by 8th. Most casters especially Wizards seem to have enough slots and versatility to cast their way out of any situation by 8th. Making cantrips not scale could be a nerf that forces casters to be more careful with their spell use. I just don’t like nerfing. It’s better to buff.
This might shock you (heh) but thunderwave produces, funnily enough, thunder. Not flashes of lightning or burning smells.
And even if you're somehow right and that was some low-level spell, guess who can't bloody do that? Aragorn. Legolas. Gimli. Boromir. So even if you were right and Tolkien's world was exclusively the lowest of low-magic, there's still considerable disparity between its martials and casters. So drop it already. If you want this kind of equality and 4e somehow isn't doing it for you, try Exalted.
1) Not only are Warriors not the best at killing stuff, but most people that I know and that I've seen want to play a Martial that can do stuff outside-of-combat too. Very few people want to be extremely good at one thing and feel completely useless when other situations arise. As shocking as this may be, I actually agree with Yurei that classes should not be designed as hyper-specialists.
2) So what? Especially for newer players, Warriors who want to be useful outside-of-combat and still be a Warrior should not have to go out of their way to make a whole build around that. Even then, the fact that the classes do not support this pillar of play ensures that casters who don't even try will likely still be better at it.
3) The help action is boring, and it makes you kinda feel useless to do it. Not only does your character not actually get to do anything interesting - helping another player hopefully roll higher isn't that enjoyable - but one of the chief problems with this is that casters often can solve problems without even requiring rolls. This would render the help action useless.
4) It doesn't feel very fun to be told "You can't do anything, but you can maybe-kinda-sorta impact the actions of people that can." Planning is not as fun or cool as actually doing something, and there is often little reason to debate whether or not the problem should be solved by the caster or whether or not the other players should just stand around doing nothing. Also, time pressure prevents infinite planning time and tells the caster to do their cool stuff quickly. Ignoring all the factors, sometimes the caster just wants to solve a problem with a spell in a cool way and be happy about it. Forcing them to endless planning for their really cool but also really quick and simple fix is not fair or fun.
5) Do your campaigns not utilize time pressure? Warriors should rarely be able to infinitely fumble around, and failing to break down doors or messing up at certain tasks can have consequences (for instance, slamming into a door and failing to break it might make a loud noise, allowing the monsters in the room beyond to plan an ambush). This tends to heavily favor quick solutions that bypass rolls, which casters have a lot of.
At higher levels especially, low level spell slots are easily expendable and would have rarely been used in combat anyways. At lower levels where those slots matter more, cantrips can actually be a big thorn in your enemies' sides.
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All in all, no group of classes should be designed to only be useful in some areas and pillars of play but be useless in others. It is not fun or enjoyable to do nothing for hours upon hours of the game. People should not have to go out of their way and seek options just to function semi-decently outside or inside combat. And even then, a couple feats is not enough to make a Warrior be half as useful outside-of-combat as a caster is.
More accurately, I said something along the lines of "Give Martials more utility outside-of-combat without making it so their base classes involve shooting massive lightning bolts and flying around."
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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HERE.But they do???? And as evidence that people don't actually care about this, I submit the Monk & the Ranger which gets a ton of out of combat utility and people hate them.
Barbarian :
Danger Sense to support their style of trap finding / disarming - i.e. run into the trap and just don't take that much damage from it.
Fast Movement & no heavy armour - supports sneaking around, escaping, chasing down people / animals
STR-based - supports long jumping, climbing, swimming,
CON-based - supports swimming, exploring rooms filled with toxic gas, drinking challenges
Indomitable Might - you now autosucceed all but Impossible strength checks
Subclasses - Totem gets utility features at level 3,6 and 10, Guardians get divination utility at level 10, Beserker gets utility at 10 (6th level ability can also be used for utility in niche situations), Wild Magic gets utility at level 6
Fighter: 2x Fighting Styles offer utility
Subclasses - Arcane Archer utility at level 3, Battlemaster 2x maneuvers offer utility + 7th level feature, Cavalier 2x utility at level 3, Champion utility at level 7, Eldritch Knight - utility through spells, Psi Warrior - utility at level 3, 7, 18, Purple Dragon - utility at 7th level, Rune Knight - utility with every rune + size increase, Samurai - utility at level 3 & 7
Monk - step of the wind at 3rd level, slow fall at 4th level, fast movement, run up walls & across water at 9th, tongues at 13th, Empty body at 18th,
Subclasses - Mercy utility at 3,6,17; Shadow utility at 3, 6, 11; Dragon utility at 3,6,11,17; Astral utility at 6; Drunken utility at 3, 11; Four Elements can have lots of utility or none depending on choices; Kensei tiny utility at 3; Death utility at 6; Open Hand utility at 11;
Rogue - Expertise, Cunning Action, Reliable Talent, Thieves Tools, Blindsense
Subclasses - Trickster - spells, Assassin 3,9,13; Inquisitive 3,3,9,13; Mastermind 3,9,17; Phantom 3,9,13; Scout 3,9; Soulknife 3,9,13; Swashbuckler 9,13; Thief 3,3,9,13
Ranger gets a billion utility things including spells, Paladin also gets Charisma skills + spells.
Could you explain what exactly problems you are talking about? Because I can think of tons that casters cannot solve by just using a spell. Things like looking for clues, tracking down a suspect, finding a hidden compartment / safe, getting a magic item out of the vault of a temple, getting past a puzzle door, getting the whole party through a hallway filled with swinging axe blades, pulling open a giant plug at the bottom of a pool, freeing prisoners from cages without alerting the bandits that have captured them, getting a herd of pigs to move out of the way of the party's cart, ...
Honestly this seems more like a problem of the DMG being a bit trash and leaving junior DMs without clear guidance on tier appropriate challenges. Tier 2 is deliberately designed to be a shift in the game away from basic survival type challenges to intelligent enemies with plots & schemes that the party must disrupt & vanquish. Tier 3 is another shift where you're no longer fighting an individual bad guy but an entire evil faction that threatens the whole country or continent. Then Tier 4 is the final shift to fighting gods & world ending threats.
So a DM should expect that some highway bandits trying to rob the players as they sleep is appropriate for Tier 1 play, but not Tier 2+, same with a basic pit trap or bucket of acid on a string connected to a door. These are Tier 1 challenges that are fun & appropriate for Tier 1 players, the DM should not expect Tier 3 players to find those things difficult. Tier 3 players should be facing challenges like escaping from a room that is filling with acid, crossing the River Styx, sneaking into a fortress filled with cultists and surrounded by a moat of lava, or rescuing prisoners from a hive of mindflayers.
@Agilemind:
Barbarians need a lot of ability scores to be high to succeed. Most people don't reach level 20, so I'm not taking the 20th-level feature into account. Therefore, Dex will mostly be rather low (probably 14 if not less, for about the entire game), unless you specifically play a Dex-based Barbarian, which is a heavy investment. This means that your Dex saves, even with an advantage, aren't that great. You're not running full speed in the dungeon to trigger all traps because you'll die. Even if you don't die from the traps, you take damage, which is most likely isn't halved by any resistance because you're not wasting that precious rage just to trigger traps. Then when the next fight comes, you'll be downed fairly quickly.
Optimised Barbarians will wear the best medium armour, which imposes a disadvantage on Stealth. Of course, you don't have to optimise, but you're losing AC, because only rarely will your Unarmored Defence be greater than armour. Medium armour already includes +2 Dex (which is your modifier, most likely), and then your Con must be 18 to match a Breastplate, or 20 to match Half-Plate. Fast movement for the purpose of chasing enemies is very helpful, but not at all comparable to a level 1 caster with any ranged cantrip, not to mention levelled spells.
Lastly, most ability checks can be trivialised by various spells, which get worse and worse the higher level your party gets and the casters can freely cast more spells of higher levels.
Fighters get only one fighting style unless you pick one specific subclass or a feat. Most fighting styles don't offer any utility, only a boring numerical boost to your attack/defence. The very few other options just aren't good because you need that boring +2 to damage. None of the Subclasses offers something truly helpful (utility-wise). Only situational features, at best. I'm excluding Eldritch Knight here because giving a martial character spells isn't the way to solve the martial-caster problem.
Monks do have many utility features, but many of them come at very high levels (>10) or cost Ki to use. Even in combat Monks struggle to keep up, thanks to too many Ki-based features. Their speed and ability to walk on various surfaces are easily matched by low-levelled spells. Take Spider Climb, [Tooltip Not Found] or Jump, for example. Most of what you tagged as a utility in their subclasses isn't truly utility either. How is calligraphy/painter supplies for Kensei, or Tranquility which goes away on your first combat (and does nothing out of combat) compare to anything really?
The rogues are pretty good. Their abilities are rather reliable (especially at high levels, but not only) and free to use, so it's unlikely your Wizard will cast Knock if there's a Rogue around. I think Rogues have always been a special case.
Ranger spells are pretty limited since you only know very few (4 spells at level 5 (and 6)?) and most of them will be combat-focused since you can't change them except one when you level up. Besides, most of the Ranger's utility spells are also available to most casters. Besides, once again, spells given to a martial aren't a fix to the martial-caster problem. They do have a few extremely situational features, and that's why they've been considered the worst class by most pre-Tasha's. Tasha's improved on Rangers, but they now have less of that situational utility. The only exception is the Fey Wanderer, but that's still mostly outclassed by any Cha-based character.
Paladin suffers from a lot of ability score dependency, so without a dip into Warlock (which I'll rule out because that's irrelevant to the discussion), your Cha will be rather low, and so most of your features that can somehow be useful out of combat (situationally), don't work very well. Their spell availability offers more utility than the Ranger's, but not only will I once again remind you that spells given to martials isn't a good fix, but also the paladin will need those slots for smites, or other combat buffs.
As for your last question, let's see. I'm mixing spell lists here, but most of these spells are either available to most or to Wizards/Clerics. Besides, Bards can get whatever they want at certain levels.
Looking for clues? Okay, that's rather vague, but many Divination spells will trivialise most problems. In addition, no Monk will ever have a higher Int than a Wizard, so any Investigation roll is still in the Wizard's favour. Perceptions checks are used too often, and Casters still will find it easier to fit Wisdom into their build than martial characters (except Monk or Ranger, but Monk is extremely MAD). It's true that a roll is needed, but notice that he said "often", not "always".
Tracking down a suspect? Speak With Animals, Beast Sense, Detect Thoughts, [Tooltip Not Found] (maybe). Possibly even Locate Object or Locate Animals or Plants. Lastly, and above all, Locate Creature and Scrying.
Finding a hidden compartment/safe? Find Traps.
Retrieving some object? First off, Locate Object. But if you're already there, Knock to open the lock, if there's one. Then, Mage Hand if the object weighs <10 lbs. Otherwise, I'm not so sure how a martial has any advantage over a caster here. If you want to say the item is out of reach, Fly or even Levitate.
Getting past a puzzle door? Plenty of Divination spells. Regardless, that usually doesn't require a roll at all, but to solve a puzzle.
Getting the whole party through a hallway filled with swinging axe blades? Sounds like various teleportation spells.
Pulling open a giant plug at the bottom of a pool? Just use Create or Destroy Water instead. Control Water, Water Breathing or Water Walk might also solve the problem.
The last two can also be solved in similar ways. Especially that last one, just make some noise with Thunderclap.
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Now, to the topic, after a reply much longer than I first intended. Reduce the number of spell slots, especially low-level spell slots at high levels, and balance is achieved.
Additionally, give martial characters an option to build around (or as secondary) a mental stat, without using spells. A Fey Wanderer Ranger with Druidic Warrior and Shillelagh is one example. Your Wisdom score now governs enough that it is both useful in combatant out of combat, but more importantly, you're also able to increase it without sacrificing much. Or in other words, like any Cha-based caster.
The next best example is Rogues, who will most likely use Dex for attacking so that covers both Attack and defence and with enough features that allow them to be evasive (starting at level 2 already, and not some high level that is rarely played), they don't need to invest too much into Con. This allows them to invest in Int/Cha/Wis enough to be actually good with those. The Inquisitive subclass actually rewards you for doing so for Wis. Swashbuckler does the same with Cha. Sadly, the only one that does anything for Int is Arcane Trickster, and here again, we are met with spells, which is not the point. How come MASTERMIND has nothing to do with Intelligence, at all?
Varielky
14 Dex with advantage is plenty, especially when you have high Con, the biggest hit die in the entire game, and likely resistance to all physical damage when a fight breaks out. Barbarian's problem starts at 9th level, all the features below that are great. I agree that Unarmored Defense can be a trap early on, but you can simply wear medium armor and ignore it. And unlike the monk's, theirs works with a shield if you're really hurting for defenses.
No one is arguing divinations aren't useful, but they aren't mandatory either unless your GM is being a jerk. If they rule that your barbarian and ranger can't even follow some tracks without casting a spell, you would do well to find a different table to play at, and that's not WotC's problem to solve.
Lastly, they ARE NERFING SPELLCASTING, see the new preparations system which there is an entirely separate thread *****ing about. Casters can't load up on high level nukes + utility anymore, their preparations equal their spell slot progression now which makes them much less flexible and therefore more reliant on the martials in the party to cover their blind spots. Sounds like a win to me.
I was referring to this. With 14 Dex and an advantage, I will at least try to find the trap first and disarm it. High Con is not necessarily the case for every Barbarian (even if it should be, sometimes your stats just don't work out), and even if it is, you're the one taking the hits in combat, so you don't want to reach combat with <50% hp already, wasted on traps. Unless you're running Path of the Beast, with the Bite option specifically, but even then, why? Either way, I doubt you'd waste a charge of Rage on running through a corridor to trigger traps, so no resistance. That doesn't even take into consideration the option that many traps might involve poison.
Then, I was referring to this:
Of course, you can wear med armour, but then you're most likely suffering a disadvantage on Stealth. That was my point. Breastplate doesn't impose a disadvantage, and is pretty good, but also costs 400 gold, so you won't count on that early on.
Yeah, divinations aren't mandatory, but they allow you to solve problems without rolling. Trying to answer this:
I wouldn't call this new preparation system a nerf tbh, for most classes. For the Bard, this change means fewer spells, but the spell level distributions were about the same due to the way they learned spells. They now prepare spells, which is ultimately a buff in versatility. Not that I'm complaining about it, I think it is better this way, but in no way is that a nerf. For Cleric and Druid, this is indeed a nerf, but honestly, those two have plenty of other features to make up for it. Even if they change the current version of the Druid from Wildshape-focused to spell-focused, they'll give them other features as the Clerics got (and I mean, that's basically the case already, but what I mean is if the features they get allow them to actually use spells and those features together).
Besides, while it means the spellcasters will have fewer high-level nukes, those low-level spell slots, at a high level, won't be used for Thunderwave, will they? While it forces them to pick lower-level utility spells, these are utility options nonetheless.
The real question is how it will be handled for the arcane casters. As it stands, this will be a big buff for Sorcerers, who will now have more spells than before, and the ability to prepare new ones every day. For Warlocks they'll definitely change things up because there's no way the Warlock will only know two spells. For the Wizard, I doubt they'll keep the same preparation system either. For them, it will clearly be a nerf, but also a very big shift in the flavour of the class. Either the Wizard will get a different system, or they'll get that plus the ability to learn spells indefinitely in their spellbook, from which they'll be able to cast rituals without preparing them, like now. Or something of that sort. We'll have to wait and see.
Varielky
Have you actually read what these spell do? Find traps does not location hidden compartments, all the locate spells require you to know specific information about what it is you are trying to locate. Beast Sense is largely useless, and Speak with Animals doesn't give the animal intelligence so you need to find an animal with some degree of intelligence yourself which usually means a .... what's that?... oh yeah - a SKILL CHECK! There is only 1 teleport spell that can take more than 2 people per casting and that's at 7th level so you'd be an absolute idiot to use it to go 100 ft down a hallway, and without it you're looking at 5x 4th level spells to teleport the whole party 100 ft - again Who in their right mind is doing this?????
Most of your other suggestions are non-solutions too, sure they might help with the problem but they don't solve it single handedly.
Oops, the find traps one is a mistake, you're right.
But yeah, regarding the rest, I assume you know who/what you're looking for. If that's not the case, we return to the "often" vs "always". Still though, use Beast Sense on some bird (sure, you need to touch it first, but that can be managed) and you can see everything from above. Pretty useful surveillance. Speak with Animals doesn't give animals intelligence, but animals aren't dumb either. Well, depends on your DM and animal. They wouldn't be able to tell you much, but perhaps something like direction, or memorable features. Crows are particularly intelligent animals, able to recognise Humans, and should be pretty abundant in most settings. I don't think looking for a crow actually requires a skill check, though to be fair most DMs will ask for one because people just like to ask for needless Perception rolls.
Dimension Door takes only two people, true, but that's half of most parties, or a third of most others. Let the others cross on their own, you've saved yourself the risk of going through. Or don't, but regardless the frail Wizard isn't going to be the one disarming traps, I bet. And yeah, that's exactly the problem with casters. You create a problem and they just cancel it, while non-casters have no way to deal with it. There's no way to challenge both types equally unless you give some puzzle that challenges the players directly. But then, you're not even roleplaying anymore.
But I don't understand what you mean by non-solutions. Usually, your party will find unintended solutions to problems because they don't know the intended one. You can't tell them "Uh, nah. This doesn't work because that's not what I wanted you to do." So yes, unless you want to pull the huge plug at the bottom of the pool to pass through it, I see no reason why any of the spells I mentioned (and Alter Self, now that I think of it) don't trivialise the problem. And even if it is the intention, pulling an object underwater is harder than pulling it out of the water, so by removing the water/being able to breathe underwater, you solve 90% of the problem.
And regarding higher tiers of play, this matter only gets worse. Since a non-caster is limited to mostly realistic solutions, they have no way to cross the moat of lava. Meanwhile, a caster? At third level, you get the ability to levitate over it or teleport to the other side (if it's <30 feet wide, which it probably is). Higher levels give you even simpler solutions.
Varielky
Take the L, his list is solid. I’m confused how you can try to argue it’s not. Find traps is a trap but everything else works. Also if we have to use skill spell casters have enhance ability, guidance, and that new knowledge spell that gives them proficiency in skills they don’t have. Even in situations that they use it on someone else they are always contributing to the solution.
Also he forgot to mention telekinesis, vortex warp, animate object and all the summon spells. Worried about traps. Send a couple summons or animated objects down the hall to trigger the traps. Also Wizards are usually the best investigators and Clerics and Druids are the best at perception checks. Expertise helps offset this but Rogues don’t usually focus on Wisdom. Usually only a 12-14 Wis unless they rolled and rolled well.
Yes, by spending a resource the casters can achieve parity with the classes that can be effective without doing so. A resource with considerable opportunity costs, no less. Working as intended?
I've been seeing this argument since 3.5 and it always amuses me. Sometimes setting off the traps is still bad even when you can do it from relative safety. Sometimes the goal is to get into the place undetected, not merely with whole skin. Sometimes triggering the trap still puts you in danger or impedes your progress even if your summon does it from down the hall or around the corner (e.g. it causes a cave-in or flood.) In those cases, the class that can actually disarm the trap rather than simply triggering it away from you and hoping for the best is superior.
For point 1, clearly its not working as intended otherwise this discussion would not exist. Resource expenditure could work as a mechanic but not while everyone is working on a different mechanic.
Point 2, sure sometimes using a summon might still be bad, you know what might be worse the rogue rolling a 5.
1) It's the DM's job to make resource expenditure matter, not WotC's. Your DM controls the encounters you face and the frequency with which you can recover your resources.
2) Thanks for pointing out another advantage of having a Rogue, it's a little thing called Reliable Talent 😏
1) its a impossible task to balance, giving the Dm that job is a cop out.
2) at high levels, for most of the game people never see it and the d20 has more swing than their abilities.
The point of rules is to make life easier for the DM. Resource expenditure systems like D&D make life more difficult for the DM (one of the virtues of the Gritty Realism variant in the DMG is that it basically eliminates long rests during adventures).
1) Oh yeah that’s fair if you spend a resource you can do really powerful things to help the party.
Yo Fighter spend a resource to do powerful things to help the party outside of combat.
Yo Barbarian spend a resource to help the Party outside of combat
Yo Monk your turn I know you got a spendable resource
Okay Rogue what do you have for resources spend
So it’s like taking your kids to a theme park, but only giving some of the kids money. Then you saying that it’s fair that the kids who have money get to do more because they have money to spend. You say the other kids get to do all the free stuff, but the kids with money get to do the free stuff as well.
2. Someone failing the skill check will set the traps off as well. Oh and the party will be within the trap’s range. Also if the goal is not to set the trap off the Cleric or Druid are probably the ones who noticed the trap because of high wisdom and thus high perception. Oddly the find traps spell’s only, and completely wasteful, use is to tell you if there is a trap nearby. If find traps was a 1st level spell it might be worth while for what it does. Anyway it’s spellcasters who have the edge here as well. Rogues reliable talent is at 11th level. Most games are in their last chapter by then. Oh and rogues can still fail high DC checks even if they always roll at minimum 10 on the dice.
If you want a game where all classes get powers they can use X time per day then play 4e! The whole design of 5e is that martials get unlimited use / fast recharge abilities that each use of them is less powerful, while casters get limited resources that are more powerful. We can argue about whether casters' resources are sufficiently limited (IMO they are not, casters get way too many spellslots - and DMs are far too kind in the number of LRs parties get) but that's the fundamental design of 5e, to change that is to go back to 4e.
Without resource expenditure then magic needs to be nerfed hard to be no better than a skill check. I mean getting rid of spell slots entirely and only giving casters cantrips and ritual spells is one solution. I guess, we can all hope that the explosion of new RPG systems by different creators will lead to two distinct game systems: Anime Martial + High Magic (doesn't mutants & masterminds already do something like this?), and Realistic Martial + Weak Magic. So the two factions can both be happy playing different games.