Agreed, however moon druid DOESN'T function as a full fighter as suggested.
I agree that it doesn't function as a full fighter as suggested. I think it should be possible to function like a full fighter. For example, you might have something like:
Augment Wild Shape: when you use Wild Shape, you may choose to spend a spell slot to improve your wild shape; if multiclassed, this must be a slot of a level where you have druid slots. If you do so, you gain 5 temp hit points per spell level. At fifth level, you also gain extra attacks equal to 1/3 of the level of spell slot spent.
Part of the reason for having templates instead of actual creature stat blocks appears to be a simple usability issue: if you're using physical books there's a lot of page flipping involved in using actual creatures -- appendix MM-A in the SRD is 28 pages, and while there are a few creatures in there that aren't beasts, most of them are. This isn't just a wild shape issue, it also applies to beast companions, conjure animals, and familiars. It's also an awful lot of waste space, because a lot is duplicated, and most beasts should have enough stat variance between individuals that we can just decide that spellcasters get one standard set of stats. For example, consider this familiar stat block:
Familiar Spirit
Tiny beast
Armor Class 11 + the level of the spell (natural armor)
Quipper: speed 0/swim 40, Blood Frenzy, Water Breathing
Rat: speed 20, Keen Smell
Raven: speed 10/fly 50, Mimicry
Sea Horse: speed 0/swim 20, Water Breathing
Spider: speed 20/climb 20, spider climb, web sense, web walker, poison
Weasel: speed 30, keen hearing and sight.
You'd have to go on and list what each of those traits means, so it's not going to be super compact, but it should still be possible to fit everything on a single page.
Does this seem like a plausible intermediate option?
So interestingly, I had a similar idea of just plugging in the traits for a non-template option to Circle of the Moon Druid just a few days ago, and one of the the things I did was pull apart the CR0 beast traits for the ones that could just be plugged in. After pruning down the list I came up with these, after removing the combat related ones like charge I ended up with this new list that I think might be familiar compliant. The idea is that you pick 1 from the list and apply it to yourself, but it would likely work applied to a baseline familiar just as well.
KeenSenses. Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks. Escape. You can take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action as a bonus action on each of your turns. Camouflage. Advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks PowerfulBuild. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. (compliant, not sure if useful) Aerial. You gain a flying speed of 60 ft and do not provoke opportunity attacks when you fly out of an enemy's reach Aquatic. You gain a Swimming speed of 60ft and can breathe underwater. Climber. You gain a climb speed equal to your movement speed and you can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
I could certainly see a trait for Darkvision, Blindsight, or Tremor Sense being useful for tiny creatures that are primarily used for recon.
The entire list of traits and other special qualities from basic set beasts is:
Amphibious
Attack: Apply Grappled
Attack: Apply Grappled and Restrained
Attack: Apply Poison, possibly with Poisoned.
Attack: Apply Prone
Attack: Blood Drain
Attack: Ink Cloud
Attack: Rock
Attack: Swallow Whole
Beast of Burden
Blood Frenzy
Charge
Echolocation
Flyby
Hold Breath
Illumination
Keen Hearing
Keen Sight
Keen Smell
Mimicry
Movement Type: Burrow
Movement Type: Flight
Movement Type: Swim
Pack Tactics
Pounce
Rampage
Relentless
Running Leap
Sense: Blindsight
Sense: Darkvision
Spider Climb
Standing Leap
Sure-Footed
Swarm
Trampling Charge
Underwater Camouflage
Water Breathing
Web Walking
Web Sense
This isn't a small list, but it's also not an overwhelming list, and most of them have short descriptions; you could pretty easily put all of them on a one page cheat sheet.
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
1) We need either more AC or more HP than that, though if you're going to keep AC low then the HP being a bonus that must be burned through before the druid is harmed is a step in the right direction. Being stuck at 13-14 AC for the first 7 levels as a frontliner is abysmal, and when you throw in that they aren't proficient in Constitution you have to wonder whether other gish subclasses like Valor Bard and War Priest will be similarly ****** while frontlining. It's a recipe for disaster when it comes to concentration, and once theirs inevitably breaks they will be even worse off.
2) As currently written Moon Druids lose their existing proficiencies (both skills and saves) as well as their racials while transformed, while again other gishes get to keep all of the above, and they get to keep their spellcasting too, plus wear armor, have an easier time maintaining concentration, etc. Merely getting a pool of bonus HP isn't nearly enough to compensate for that.
Beyond this, my opinion is "tiny" should be its own stat block. "Tiny creature" is available at one. It halves your strength, does 1 point of damage. It has the same options as land, but can also gain a swim or fly speed at the levels those unlock. This creature has an AC of 8 + your dex, and health equal to your druid level.
I'm fine with this provided they fix the above, including keeping existing proficiencies and racials. (Well, maybe the tiny forms can lose racials.)
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
1) We need either more AC or more HP than that, though if you're going to keep AC low then the HP being a bonus that must be burned through before the druid is harmed is a step in the right direction. Being stuck at 13-14 AC for the first 7 levels as a frontliner is abysmal, and when you throw in that they aren't proficient in Constitution you have to wonder whether other gish subclasses like Valor Bard and War Priest will be similarly ****** while frontlining. It's a recipe for disaster when it comes to concentration, and once theirs inevitably breaks they will be even worse off.
2) As currently written Moon Druids lose their existing proficiencies (both skills and saves) as well as their racials while transformed, while again other gishes get to keep all of the above, and they get to keep their spellcasting too, plus wear armor, have an easier time maintaining concentration, etc. Merely getting a pool of bonus HP isn't nearly enough to compensate for that.
Beyond this, my opinion is "tiny" should be its own stat block. "Tiny creature" is available at one. It halves your strength, does 1 point of damage. It has the same options as land, but can also gain a swim or fly speed at the levels those unlock. This creature has an AC of 8 + your dex, and health equal to your druid level.
I'm fine with this provided they fix the above, including keeping existing proficiencies and racials. (Well, maybe the tiny forms can lose racials.)
More than 10 EXTRA health at level 1, when the fighter's MAX health is typically 12? Or do you mean more than 30 EXTRA health at level 5 when the fighter's health is typically 44? Don't forget the druid has a separate health that isn't connected to this. The form just needs to last a round or 2 of hits in combat, not the whole day, and even if you want to carry the form for multiple fights you would still need to heal yourself regardless and that will be based on lost health not max health. Which is the AC issue more than anything. Course my lower AC thing was based on it being separate health from the druid itself, because getting another "health bar" is a defensive boost in itself. Movement speed is also defensive and offensive boost as well as utility boost.
2. my suggestion has wild shape keep all skills, background features, feats, and class/multi-class features. The only thing they don't get in my suggestion is Species abilities because their species literally changed when they shifted. It isn't "just a bag of hit points" it has speed increases and abilities that are otherwise inaccessible outside of spell slots.
The entire list of traits and other special qualities from basic set beasts is:
Amphibious
Attack: Apply Grappled
Attack: Apply Grappled and Restrained
Attack: Apply Poison, possibly with Poisoned.
Attack: Apply Prone
Attack: Blood Drain
Attack: Ink Cloud
Attack: Rock
Attack: Swallow Whole
Beast of Burden
Blood Frenzy
Charge
Echolocation
Flyby
Hold Breath
Illumination
Keen Hearing
Keen Sight
Keen Smell
Mimicry
Movement Type: Burrow
Movement Type: Flight
Movement Type: Swim
Pack Tactics
Pounce
Rampage
Relentless
Running Leap
Sense: Blindsight
Sense: Darkvision
Spider Climb
Standing Leap
Sure-Footed
Swarm
Trampling Charge
Underwater Camouflage
Water Breathing
Web Walking
Web Sense
This isn't a small list, but it's also not an overwhelming list, and most of them have short descriptions; you could pretty easily put all of them on a one page cheat sheet.
Wow, I didn't think there would be so many...
I have a suggestion, that not all 39 are available to ALL druids, perhaps to say 25, and depending on the circle they unlock some of the rest that are more logical (They could share some between different circles, but not with the rest.) For example, within the circle of the earth, if you are from the Underdark, you have additional spells and other benefits, that your wild shape have an even wider night vision (Instead of 60 meters it is 120), or if you are from the land, from the coast, your aquatic forms have underwater camouflage or cloud of ink, or all their forms have hold their breath, I don't know, those of the moon have one or 2 combat options that are exclusive, etc... to differentiate slightly the different circles even in their wild shape mode... and give them more variety not only by our choice at the moment and wild shapes but also by the circle.
It may not scale well, but I don't think familiars need to scale at all. Also flyby on the owl just keeps it as the best choice. And for the druid who can summon them almost at will that is a long list of abilities to have in a disposable pet. In a cave bat and its blind sight, facing a invisible enemy the same, want your advantage spam owl etc.
We should be making find familiar worse not better. It was too good as is in 5e.
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
1) We need either more AC or more HP than that, though if you're going to keep AC low then the HP being a bonus that must be burned through before the druid is harmed is a step in the right direction. Being stuck at 13-14 AC for the first 7 levels as a frontliner is abysmal, and when you throw in that they aren't proficient in Constitution you have to wonder whether other gish subclasses like Valor Bard and War Priest will be similarly ****** while frontlining. It's a recipe for disaster when it comes to concentration, and once theirs inevitably breaks they will be even worse off.
2) As currently written Moon Druids lose their existing proficiencies (both skills and saves) as well as their racials while transformed, while again other gishes get to keep all of the above, and they get to keep their spellcasting too, plus wear armor, have an easier time maintaining concentration, etc. Merely getting a pool of bonus HP isn't nearly enough to compensate for that.
Beyond this, my opinion is "tiny" should be its own stat block. "Tiny creature" is available at one. It halves your strength, does 1 point of damage. It has the same options as land, but can also gain a swim or fly speed at the levels those unlock. This creature has an AC of 8 + your dex, and health equal to your druid level.
I'm fine with this provided they fix the above, including keeping existing proficiencies and racials. (Well, maybe the tiny forms can lose racials.)
More than 10 EXTRA health at level 1, when the fighter's MAX health is typically 12? Or do you mean more than 30 EXTRA health at level 5 when the fighter's health is typically 44? Don't forget the druid has a separate health that isn't connected to this.
When you have 13 AC at 1 or 14 AC at 5, you'll need all that HP. And even if you survive, the number of concentration checks you'll be making without Con save proficiency are a problem too.
Honestly it could be AC 10+ Wisdom and your health becomes 5 + 5xdruid level (10 at level 1, 15 at 2...) for land and water and AC 8+ wis with health 4 + 4 x druid level for air, when your health drops to 0 you revert back to normal with full health and any extra damage carries over. The health replace thing coming back would solve the durability issues we are having, most forms had lower AC so the lower AC doesn't really super matter.
1) We need either more AC or more HP than that, though if you're going to keep AC low then the HP being a bonus that must be burned through before the druid is harmed is a step in the right direction. Being stuck at 13-14 AC for the first 7 levels as a frontliner is abysmal, and when you throw in that they aren't proficient in Constitution you have to wonder whether other gish subclasses like Valor Bard and War Priest will be similarly ****** while frontlining. It's a recipe for disaster when it comes to concentration, and once theirs inevitably breaks they will be even worse off.
2) As currently written Moon Druids lose their existing proficiencies (both skills and saves) as well as their racials while transformed, while again other gishes get to keep all of the above, and they get to keep their spellcasting too, plus wear armor, have an easier time maintaining concentration, etc. Merely getting a pool of bonus HP isn't nearly enough to compensate for that.
Beyond this, my opinion is "tiny" should be its own stat block. "Tiny creature" is available at one. It halves your strength, does 1 point of damage. It has the same options as land, but can also gain a swim or fly speed at the levels those unlock. This creature has an AC of 8 + your dex, and health equal to your druid level.
I'm fine with this provided they fix the above, including keeping existing proficiencies and racials. (Well, maybe the tiny forms can lose racials.)
More than 10 EXTRA health at level 1, when the fighter's MAX health is typically 12? Or do you mean more than 30 EXTRA health at level 5 when the fighter's health is typically 44? Don't forget the druid has a separate health that isn't connected to this.
When you have 13 AC at 1 or 14 AC at 5, you'll need all that HP. And even if you survive, the number of concentration checks you'll be making without Con save proficiency are a problem too.
I believe I suggested that you add your wisdom to your constitution while transformed specifically to help with those concentration checks, for that exact reason.
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I agree that it doesn't function as a full fighter as suggested. I think it should be possible to function like a full fighter. For example, you might have something like:
Augment Wild Shape: when you use Wild Shape, you may choose to spend a spell slot to improve your wild shape; if multiclassed, this must be a slot of a level where you have druid slots. If you do so, you gain 5 temp hit points per spell level. At fifth level, you also gain extra attacks equal to 1/3 of the level of spell slot spent.
So interestingly, I had a similar idea of just plugging in the traits for a non-template option to Circle of the Moon Druid just a few days ago, and one of the the things I did was pull apart the CR0 beast traits for the ones that could just be plugged in. After pruning down the list I came up with these, after removing the combat related ones like charge I ended up with this new list that I think might be familiar compliant. The idea is that you pick 1 from the list and apply it to yourself, but it would likely work applied to a baseline familiar just as well.
Keen Senses. Advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Escape. You can take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action as a bonus action on each of your turns.
Camouflage. Advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks
Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. (compliant, not sure if useful)
Aerial. You gain a flying speed of 60 ft and do not provoke opportunity attacks when you fly out of an enemy's reach
Aquatic. You gain a Swimming speed of 60ft and can breathe underwater.
Climber. You gain a climb speed equal to your movement speed and you can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
I could certainly see a trait for Darkvision, Blindsight, or Tremor Sense being useful for tiny creatures that are primarily used for recon.
The entire list of traits and other special qualities from basic set beasts is:
This isn't a small list, but it's also not an overwhelming list, and most of them have short descriptions; you could pretty easily put all of them on a one page cheat sheet.
1) We need either more AC or more HP than that, though if you're going to keep AC low then the HP being a bonus that must be burned through before the druid is harmed is a step in the right direction. Being stuck at 13-14 AC for the first 7 levels as a frontliner is abysmal, and when you throw in that they aren't proficient in Constitution you have to wonder whether other gish subclasses like Valor Bard and War Priest will be similarly ****** while frontlining. It's a recipe for disaster when it comes to concentration, and once theirs inevitably breaks they will be even worse off.
2) As currently written Moon Druids lose their existing proficiencies (both skills and saves) as well as their racials while transformed, while again other gishes get to keep all of the above, and they get to keep their spellcasting too, plus wear armor, have an easier time maintaining concentration, etc. Merely getting a pool of bonus HP isn't nearly enough to compensate for that.
I'm fine with this provided they fix the above, including keeping existing proficiencies and racials. (Well, maybe the tiny forms can lose racials.)
Probably the easiest fix for wild shape AC would be to add mage armor to the druid spell list.
More than 10 EXTRA health at level 1, when the fighter's MAX health is typically 12? Or do you mean more than 30 EXTRA health at level 5 when the fighter's health is typically 44? Don't forget the druid has a separate health that isn't connected to this. The form just needs to last a round or 2 of hits in combat, not the whole day, and even if you want to carry the form for multiple fights you would still need to heal yourself regardless and that will be based on lost health not max health. Which is the AC issue more than anything. Course my lower AC thing was based on it being separate health from the druid itself, because getting another "health bar" is a defensive boost in itself. Movement speed is also defensive and offensive boost as well as utility boost.
2. my suggestion has wild shape keep all skills, background features, feats, and class/multi-class features. The only thing they don't get in my suggestion is Species abilities because their species literally changed when they shifted. It isn't "just a bag of hit points" it has speed increases and abilities that are otherwise inaccessible outside of spell slots.
Wow, I didn't think there would be so many...
I have a suggestion, that not all 39 are available to ALL druids, perhaps to say 25, and depending on the circle they unlock some of the rest that are more logical (They could share some between different circles, but not with the rest.) For example, within the circle of the earth, if you are from the Underdark, you have additional spells and other benefits, that your wild shape have an even wider night vision (Instead of 60 meters it is 120), or if you are from the land, from the coast, your aquatic forms have underwater camouflage or cloud of ink, or all their forms have hold their breath, I don't know, those of the moon have one or 2 combat options that are exclusive, etc... to differentiate slightly the different circles even in their wild shape mode... and give them more variety not only by our choice at the moment and wild shapes but also by the circle.
It may not scale well, but I don't think familiars need to scale at all. Also flyby on the owl just keeps it as the best choice. And for the druid who can summon them almost at will that is a long list of abilities to have in a disposable pet. In a cave bat and its blind sight, facing a invisible enemy the same, want your advantage spam owl etc.
We should be making find familiar worse not better. It was too good as is in 5e.
For wildshape it seems like a decent idea.
When you have 13 AC at 1 or 14 AC at 5, you'll need all that HP. And even if you survive, the number of concentration checks you'll be making without Con save proficiency are a problem too.
I believe I suggested that you add your wisdom to your constitution while transformed specifically to help with those concentration checks, for that exact reason.