honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
Honestly, Pact Warrior is mostly just Shillelagh with fewer weapon restrictions but a full action casting instead of a bonus action. For a One D&D paladin I'd probably just use Magic Initiate (Shillelagh, Another Cantrip, and something like Goodberry or Hunter's Mark) instead of a warlock dip.
However, if you want pact weapon to be less dippable, change it to a cantrip that executes an attack with a weapon (a la booming/greenflame blade) that uses your casting stat instead of the weapon's stat. I wouldn't even be scared of making that a general Arcane list spell. Maybe call it True Strike :)
True Strike (S, M)
Make a single attack with the weapon used as a material component, using your spell attack modifier to hit and your spellcasting ability score for damage bonus. Add 1d6 damage at level 5, 2d6 at level 11, 3d6 at level 17.
Material Component: a melee or ranged weapon.
Well I mean... maybe, but then you'd still have to find a way to bake the Cantrip Upgrade for extra attack at 5th level into it somehow, without just straight up giving all Arcane casters Extra Attack.
Well I mean... maybe, but then you'd still have to find a way to bake the Cantrip Upgrade for extra attack at 5th level into it somehow, without just straight up giving all Arcane casters Extra Attack.
Just give blade pact an additional ability at higher level, the cantrip I describe has significant limitations that it would be nice to get around with a warlock, but aren't important to get around at level 1.
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
Honestly, Pact Warrior is mostly just Shillelagh with fewer weapon restrictions but a full action casting instead of a bonus action. For a One D&D paladin I'd probably just use Magic Initiate (Shillelagh, Another Cantrip, and something like Goodberry or Hunter's Mark) instead of a warlock dip.
However, if you want pact weapon to be less dippable, change it to a cantrip that executes an attack with a weapon (a la booming/greenflame blade) that uses your casting stat instead of the weapon's stat. I wouldn't even be scared of making that a general Arcane list spell. Maybe call it True Strike :)
True Strike (S, M)
Make a single attack with the weapon used as a material component, using your spell attack modifier to hit and your spellcasting ability score for damage bonus. Add 1d6 damage at level 5, 2d6 at level 11, 3d6 at level 17.
Material Component: a melee or ranged weapon.
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well I mean... maybe, but then you'd still have to find a way to bake the Cantrip Upgrade for extra attack at 5th level into it somehow, without just straight up giving all Arcane casters Extra Attack.
Just give blade pact an additional ability at higher level, the cantrip I describe has significant limitations that it would be nice to get around with a warlock, but aren't important to get around at level 1.
I'm warming up to the idea of making it a cantrip attack, because it would discourage dipping since it would not mesh with Martial Extra Attack at all, but I would not put it in the Arcane spell list.
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
It's a thing I wrote in thirty seconds. On reflection, it should probably include "weapon you are proficient with" and specify that it's either a melee spell attack or a ranged spell attack (or possibly more than one cantrip. Or not apply casting stat to damage, only the attack roll).
I guess a cleaner version might be
True Strike (V) (bonus action cantrip)
On your next melee or ranged weapon attack before the start of your next turn, you may use your spell attack modifier instead of your attack modifier with the weapon.
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
It's a thing I wrote in thirty seconds. On reflection, it should probably include "weapon you are proficient with" and specify that it's either a melee spell attack or a ranged spell attack (or possibly more than one cantrip. Or not apply casting stat to damage, only the attack roll).
I guess a cleaner version might be
True Strike (V) (bonus action cantrip)
On your next melee or ranged weapon attack before the start of your next turn, you may use your spell attack modifier instead of your attack modifier with the weapon.
Meh, I just realized that while it stops dipping into Warlock for Cha to attack, it is also a direct nerf to bladelocks that would like to benefit from other melee features.
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
How'd you feel playing a Wizard that doesn't get to add their Int to spellcasting until 3rd level?
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
How'd you feel playing a Wizard that doesn't get to add their Int to spellcasting until 3rd level?
Clerics are meant to be gishes, and they never get to use Wis for their weapon attacks, same for Bladesinger, Valor Bard, and Sword's Bard...
Meh, I just realized that while it stops dipping into Warlock for Cha to attack, it is also a direct nerf to bladelocks that would like to benefit from other melee features.
You can grant them a better feature at higher level. This is enough to get you through level 1.
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
How'd you feel playing a Wizard that doesn't get to add their Int to spellcasting until 3rd level?
Clerics are meant to be gishes, and they never get to use Wis for their weapon attacks, same for Bladesinger, Valor Bard, and Sword's Bard...
If you want to stop 1 level dips, limit the number of attacks that Pact of the Blade can affect per round, or add in language that reads...
"If a multiclass Blade Pact Warlock gains additional attacks per round from a class other than Warlock, those attacks use either Str or Dex to attack and damage and not Cha or Wis. "
This allows a Blade Warlock to use their primary stat to hit (like just about everyone else, most notable the other Warlock Pacts), while preventing dip abuse.
If you want to stop 1 level dips, limit the number of attacks that Pact of the Blade can affect per round, or add in language that reads...
"If a multiclass Blade Pact Warlock gains additional attacks per round from a class other than Warlock, those attacks use either Str or Dex to attack and damage and not Cha or Wis. "
I think the more consistent with other game mechanics would be
Eldritch Warrior. Once per turn when you attack with the weapon, you can use your spellcasting ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls, instead of using Strength or Dexterity. At level 5, you are not limited to once per turn.
If you want to stop 1 level dips, limit the number of attacks that Pact of the Blade can affect per round, or add in language that reads...
"If a multiclass Blade Pact Warlock gains additional attacks per round from a class other than Warlock, those attacks use either Str or Dex to attack and damage and not Cha or Wis. "
I think the more consistent with other game mechanics would be
Eldritch Warrior. Once per turn when you attack with the weapon, you can use your spellcasting ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls, instead of using Strength or Dexterity. At level 5, you are not limited to once per turn.
The only issue there is then the Bladelock can't take opportunity attacks except at a notable penalty until level 5. It also prevents them from benefiting from a Haste spell or similar mechanic until then. The latter isn't typically an issue, as level 5 is when those effects come into the hands of players, but there is always the possibility that an adventure considers early access via a single use item. The wording shouldn't nerf those possibilities by accident.
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
How'd you feel playing a Wizard that doesn't get to add their Int to spellcasting until 3rd level?
Clerics are meant to be gishes, and they never get to use Wis for their weapon attacks, same for Bladesinger, Valor Bard, and Sword's Bard...
If you want to stop 1 level dips, limit the number of attacks that Pact of the Blade can affect per round, or add in language that reads...
"If a multiclass Blade Pact Warlock gains additional attacks per round from a class other than Warlock, those attacks use either Str or Dex to attack and damage and not Cha or Wis. "
This allows a Blade Warlock to use their primary stat to hit (like just about everyone else, most notable the other Warlock Pacts), while preventing dip abuse.
the point isn't to stop level 1 dips, but rather to just stop incentivizing them for power. someone that dips for max power should have some choices to make, quantify a rate of return in this column vs that column. someone that dips one level for a sword they can bamf into their previously empty hand is welcome to it. honestly, that person should just step forward and argue that the whole thing could be a pact feat because of course people other than warlocks can make deals with the devil/fairyfolk/cthulhu. hell, why isn't this a feat? why isn't this a "warlocks get one of these three feats free" situation plus a "and they can do it faster, cooler, and with less soul-ripping than those other schmoes?"
edit: if i wanted to stop dips in their tracks i'd recommend a multiclass prerequisite of 13 CHA and 13 INT to reflect all that getting-the-better-end-of-deals that a real warlock is all about or something. tempting, but i have some faith in waiting until the next iteration after survey.
The only issue there is then the Bladelock can't take opportunity attacks except at a notable penalty until level 5.
The limit is once per turn, not once per round. It is very unlikely that you are taking opportunity attacks on your turn after taking the attack action (there are a couple spells that might cause a foe to trigger an opportunity attack on your turn, but then you spent your action casting a spell).
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Well I mean... maybe, but then you'd still have to find a way to bake the Cantrip Upgrade for extra attack at 5th level into it somehow, without just straight up giving all Arcane casters Extra Attack.
Just give blade pact an additional ability at higher level, the cantrip I describe has significant limitations that it would be nice to get around with a warlock, but aren't important to get around at level 1.
Great idea! Why should martials be any better at using weapons than casters, anyways?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
"Make a basic attack with a cantrip" is significantly worse than what martials get. It is merely "adequate to make the blade warlock viable at level 1".
"Make a basic attack" is far better than every other cantrip. By design, too. Why would you take fire bolt when you could deal way more damage with a different weapon and be able to add plenty of powerful feats on (including weapon mastery)?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I'm warming up to the idea of making it a cantrip attack, because it would discourage dipping since it would not mesh with Martial Extra Attack at all, but I would not put it in the Arcane spell list.
Melee Spell Attack doesn't trigger Melee Attack features.
It doesn't say it's a spell attack.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It is a Spell, it was probably implied.
It's a thing I wrote in thirty seconds. On reflection, it should probably include "weapon you are proficient with" and specify that it's either a melee spell attack or a ranged spell attack (or possibly more than one cantrip. Or not apply casting stat to damage, only the attack roll).
I guess a cleaner version might be
Meh, I just realized that while it stops dipping into Warlock for Cha to attack, it is also a direct nerf to bladelocks that would like to benefit from other melee features.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
How'd you feel playing a Wizard that doesn't get to add their Int to spellcasting until 3rd level?
Clerics are meant to be gishes, and they never get to use Wis for their weapon attacks, same for Bladesinger, Valor Bard, and Sword's Bard...
You can grant them a better feature at higher level. This is enough to get you through level 1.
If you want to stop 1 level dips, limit the number of attacks that Pact of the Blade can affect per round, or add in language that reads...
"If a multiclass Blade Pact Warlock gains additional attacks per round from a class other than Warlock, those attacks use either Str or Dex to attack and damage and not Cha or Wis. "
This allows a Blade Warlock to use their primary stat to hit (like just about everyone else, most notable the other Warlock Pacts), while preventing dip abuse.
I think the more consistent with other game mechanics would be
The only issue there is then the Bladelock can't take opportunity attacks except at a notable penalty until level 5. It also prevents them from benefiting from a Haste spell or similar mechanic until then. The latter isn't typically an issue, as level 5 is when those effects come into the hands of players, but there is always the possibility that an adventure considers early access via a single use item. The wording shouldn't nerf those possibilities by accident.
the point isn't to stop level 1 dips, but rather to just stop incentivizing them for power. someone that dips for max power should have some choices to make, quantify a rate of return in this column vs that column. someone that dips one level for a sword they can bamf into their previously empty hand is welcome to it. honestly, that person should just step forward and argue that the whole thing could be a pact feat because of course people other than warlocks can make deals with the devil/fairyfolk/cthulhu. hell, why isn't this a feat? why isn't this a "warlocks get one of these three feats free" situation plus a "and they can do it faster, cooler, and with less soul-ripping than those other schmoes?"
edit: if i wanted to stop dips in their tracks i'd recommend a multiclass prerequisite of 13 CHA and 13 INT to reflect all that getting-the-better-end-of-deals that a real warlock is all about or something. tempting, but i have some faith in waiting until the next iteration after survey.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The limit is once per turn, not once per round. It is very unlikely that you are taking opportunity attacks on your turn after taking the attack action (there are a couple spells that might cause a foe to trigger an opportunity attack on your turn, but then you spent your action casting a spell).