No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try. I have done side by side builds, new has more spells known, more slots and just as many if not more build options.
I have by rebuilding my existing characters, at most levels I ended up a invocation short. And while I cast more spells in a single encounter, given that my games don't exist in the no short rests allowed tables it was pretty dang close across the day with lower levels me having more, and all of mine were max level. The one I'm looking at right now, I didn't pick up voice of the chain master on one of them and I guess i'd of got that for free, but since it wasn't part of my plan or build, meh. So that one is down either 2 or one depending on how you look at the freebie voice. He's level 10, at 20 maybe it would look a bit better, I'm not so sure as instead of 2 towards mystic arcanum id have 4. So I could literally have the exact same invocations I have now at 20 and yeah voice of the chain master for free. So even if I took voice, I'd still have two more for things like visions of distant realms and witch sight.
And even if the invocations magically balanced out like instead of 9 they bumped it to 12, id still be irritated that I'm forced to spend invocations on things i should get for free and I'd still hate half casting compared to pact magic. As I like pact magic, and after playing a decent number of them I hate 1/2 casters.
Base Chain has the Warlock use their Attack action to allow the Familiar to immediately take theirs as a reaction. Therefore the obvious application of Investment is to upgrade your ability to order the attack to only using a Bonus Action instead of a full Action. It's an upgrade, therefore it should logically interact with the preexisting parameters of how the familiar attacks, which is as a reaction in response to your command. We're getting into the weeds of interpreting RAI from a somewhat ambiguous text, but I can't find any official ruling or similar statement that this interpretation is wrong.
And obviously I'm using Mask of Many Faces full time. What kind of Feylock illusionist walks around showing their mundane face to everyone? Obviously this isn't a super optimized pick, but again the point is that Invocations should be left open to flexible customizations like this, not having to be relegated to getting limited access to something the class already had as a core feature.
I don't play a fey lock and I have mask of many faces and there is almost no day that isn't a pure dungeon crawl type day I don't cast it a dozen times, same with misty visions.
My Archfey Warlock probably doesn't need Mask of Many Faces more than three times on a normal day in a city. I'll likely swap it out soon. Been wanting to try Cloak of Flies.
Edit: I do like it. It's been a lot of fun being able to spam Disguise Self. But I can probably get what I need out of just casting the spell normally. Also I think it's lame that there's a low-rarity magic item that does the same thing.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try. I have done side by side builds, new has more spells known, more slots and just as many if not more build options.
I did take a look at it. As I've said, burning most if not all of my invocations just to get the same spell range I had as a default class feature does not appeal to me.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try.
Again I say -- if you want a warlock that casts spells like a wizard, just re-flavor a wizard to say your magic comes from a pact
I don't want them to cast spells like a Wizard; nor do I want them to cast spells like a Ranger. I want them to be a Warlock.
You took a look at it you didnt try it because otherwise you wouldn't be saying what you are. You dont burn all your invocation slots. Bad faith arguments after bad faith argument that doesn't accurately portray what the new warlock is capable of at all.
Paladins dont get full casting like his full casting priest brethren but he is still a priest.
Paladins also get a lot more martial support, and Channel Divinity, as well as list prepping. And calling my argument bad faith just because I came to a different conclusion than you did is itself a bad faith argument. With my current build, I have access to Shadow of Moil, Banishment, Mask of Many Faces, and Misty Visions at level 8, in addition to AB and Investiture for core support. At level 9 I'll have Dominate Person and another Invocation to play with. Under the new setup at that level I'm forced to choose between Shadow of Moil or Banishment, my familiar is only good for poking enemies a few times before dying in combat, and I have to spend the upcoming Invocation to get Dominate Person, which also means my familiar remains ineffective until at least level 11, at which point I'd then missing out on getting a 6th level spell when I normally would, so regardless of what I pick I'm losing something I already had. But please, tell me more about how I can maintain my same build under this new setup, instead of getting massively nerfed on spell power and invocation flexibility.
This is a perfect example of the bad faith. Completely miss representing the new lock because you haven't tried.
The new familiar is just as survivable if not more so than the old. The sprite breaks invisibility on attack, it needs to wait a full round to turn invisible again. The new one doesn't break on attack, because of this BOTH will be out of reach of melee when they are visible. New one just has more health.
2. You aren't casting both shadow of moil and banishment, so clearly one of them is more valuable.
3. You do NOT have to take mystic arcanum at 9 to get a 5th level spell. You took it at 5 and can trade the 3rd level arcanum for the 5th level one. There is no delay for the 9th level invocation.
4. You have first level slots you can have silent image or disguise self as a spell and cast it when you need it, you are not needing them both 5 times a day. Take the one you need most, enjoy the free voice of the chain and you still get ab. Investment is also built in, you dont need it to command your guy.
At 8 invocations AB, mystic arcanum 3rd, mystic arcanum 4th (shadow of moil), misty visions. You prep disguise self and have 4 first level slots to cast it with.
At 9 you grab the chain invocation and the 3rd mystic arcanum becomes a 5th because you don't need the third anymore.
In addition you still voice of the chain on top of it.
In point of fact, I do need Mask of Many faces for this character, as well as Misty Visions. And sprites don't wait a full round to reup their invisibility, since they use a reaction to attack off my bonus action and have their own place in the initiative. Which also means my sprite can attack every round, while your familiar is forced to alternate actions between invisibility and attacking. And while I obviously cannot use both Banishment and Moil at the same time, I have in point of fact used them both in the same combat. First tossed a Banishment at the boss to see if I could either make them take a breather or burn an LR if they had one at the opening, and then when I saw their AC, popped Moil to help ensure my attacks got through. And regardless of when I take Mystic Arcanum, it still throws off the rest of my Invocation progression, and that's a single 3rd level spell, whereas I currently have at least three in the rotation.
Also, Voice of the Chain is the equivalent of floor mats here, not a selling point.
Ok so you dont know how investment of the chain master works. You use your bonus action to command it to take the attack action WHICH IT TAKES ON ITS TURN. it has to wait a full round to turn invisible again.
And you are going to need to explain exactly what you are doing with mask of many faces that you think you need more than 4 castings a day of it.
Base Chain has the Warlock use their Attack action to allow the Familiar to immediately take theirs as a reaction. Therefore the obvious application of Investment is to upgrade your ability to order the attack to only using a Bonus Action instead of a full Action. It's an upgrade, therefore it should logically interact with the preexisting parameters of how the familiar attacks, which is as a reaction in response to your command. We're getting into the weeds of interpreting RAI from a somewhat ambiguous text, but I can't find any official ruling or similar statement that this interpretation is wrong.
And obviously I'm using Mask of Many Faces full time. What kind of Feylock illusionist walks around showing their mundane face to everyone? Obviously this isn't a super optimized pick, but again the point is that Invocations should be left open to flexible customizations like this, not having to be relegated to getting limited access to something the class already had as a core feature.
Right and with 4 slots it will last 4 hours.
But sure take mask of many faces and take silent image. 4 castings of silent image + minor illusion cantrip is more than enough for 95% of games.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try. I have done side by side builds, new has more spells known, more slots and just as many if not more build options.
I have by rebuilding my existing characters, at most levels I ended up a invocation short. And while I cast more spells in a single encounter, given that my games don't exist in the no short rests allowed tables it was pretty dang close across the day with lower levels me having more, and all of mine were max level. The one I'm looking at right now, I didn't pick up voice of the chain master on one of them and I guess i'd of got that for free, but since it wasn't part of my plan or build, meh. So that one is down either 2 or one depending on how you look at the freebie voice. He's level 10, at 20 maybe it would look a bit better, I'm not so sure as instead of 2 towards mystic arcanum id have 4. So I could literally have the exact same invocations I have now at 20 and yeah voice of the chain master for free. So even if I took voice, I'd still have two more for things like visions of distant realms and witch sight.
And even if the invocations magically balanced out like instead of 9 they bumped it to 12, id still be irritated that I'm forced to spend invocations on things i should get for free and I'd still hate half casting compared to pact magic. As I like pact magic, and after playing a decent number of them I hate 1/2 casters.
Are you accouting for the extra first level spells for utility, or accounting for extra total spell preparations because of the auto pact magic preps. My games dont lack short rests, but you dont always get them exactly when you need them. Opportunities are lost.
There are still opportunities lost with the new one. It isnt exact, but the power is transfered
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try. I have done side by side builds, new has more spells known, more slots and just as many if not more build options.
I have by rebuilding my existing characters, at most levels I ended up a invocation short. And while I cast more spells in a single encounter, given that my games don't exist in the no short rests allowed tables it was pretty dang close across the day with lower levels me having more, and all of mine were max level. The one I'm looking at right now, I didn't pick up voice of the chain master on one of them and I guess i'd of got that for free, but since it wasn't part of my plan or build, meh. So that one is down either 2 or one depending on how you look at the freebie voice. He's level 10, at 20 maybe it would look a bit better, I'm not so sure as instead of 2 towards mystic arcanum id have 4. So I could literally have the exact same invocations I have now at 20 and yeah voice of the chain master for free. So even if I took voice, I'd still have two more for things like visions of distant realms and witch sight.
And even if the invocations magically balanced out like instead of 9 they bumped it to 12, id still be irritated that I'm forced to spend invocations on things i should get for free and I'd still hate half casting compared to pact magic. As I like pact magic, and after playing a decent number of them I hate 1/2 casters.
Are you accouting for the extra first level spells for utility, or accounting for extra total spell preparations because of the auto pact magic preps. My games dont lack short rests, but you dont always get them exactly when you need them. Opportunities are lost.
There are still opportunities lost with the new one. It isnt exact, but the power is transfered
Yes, I am. I'm not claiming its a massive power loss, its a massive fun loss, for how I play its a loss in invocations, its a loss in style and uniqueness, its just no longer a warlock. I give 0 **** if it is equal or even slightly better than the current lock, though with how I make my characters and play the game it is a bit weaker. What I do care about is that it is no longer a warlock.
My Archfey Warlock probably doesn't need Mask of Many Faces more than three times on a normal day in a city. I'll likely swap it out soon. Been wanting to try Cloak of Flies.
Edit: I do like it. It's been a lot of fun being able to spam Disguise Self. But I can probably get what I need out of just casting the spell normally. Also I think it's lame that there's a low-rarity magic item that does the same thing.
The Hat of Disguise is an attuned item. 3 attunement slots with things like Robe of the Archmagi, Rod of the Pact Keeper, Ring of Spell Storing, etc. competing for slots vs 4-6 Invocations in the typical range of play. Obviously it's not essential on the same tier as Agonizing Blast, but it's fun to have and you have significantly more Invocation slots than attunement slots.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try. I have done side by side builds, new has more spells known, more slots and just as many if not more build options.
I did take a look at it. As I've said, burning most if not all of my invocations just to get the same spell range I had as a default class feature does not appeal to me.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try.
Again I say -- if you want a warlock that casts spells like a wizard, just re-flavor a wizard to say your magic comes from a pact
I don't want them to cast spells like a Wizard; nor do I want them to cast spells like a Ranger. I want them to be a Warlock.
You took a look at it you didnt try it because otherwise you wouldn't be saying what you are. You dont burn all your invocation slots. Bad faith arguments after bad faith argument that doesn't accurately portray what the new warlock is capable of at all.
Paladins dont get full casting like his full casting priest brethren but he is still a priest.
Paladins also get a lot more martial support, and Channel Divinity, as well as list prepping. And calling my argument bad faith just because I came to a different conclusion than you did is itself a bad faith argument. With my current build, I have access to Shadow of Moil, Banishment, Mask of Many Faces, and Misty Visions at level 8, in addition to AB and Investiture for core support. At level 9 I'll have Dominate Person and another Invocation to play with. Under the new setup at that level I'm forced to choose between Shadow of Moil or Banishment, my familiar is only good for poking enemies a few times before dying in combat, and I have to spend the upcoming Invocation to get Dominate Person, which also means my familiar remains ineffective until at least level 11, at which point I'd then missing out on getting a 6th level spell when I normally would, so regardless of what I pick I'm losing something I already had. But please, tell me more about how I can maintain my same build under this new setup, instead of getting massively nerfed on spell power and invocation flexibility.
This is a perfect example of the bad faith. Completely miss representing the new lock because you haven't tried.
The new familiar is just as survivable if not more so than the old. The sprite breaks invisibility on attack, it needs to wait a full round to turn invisible again. The new one doesn't break on attack, because of this BOTH will be out of reach of melee when they are visible. New one just has more health.
2. You aren't casting both shadow of moil and banishment, so clearly one of them is more valuable.
3. You do NOT have to take mystic arcanum at 9 to get a 5th level spell. You took it at 5 and can trade the 3rd level arcanum for the 5th level one. There is no delay for the 9th level invocation.
4. You have first level slots you can have silent image or disguise self as a spell and cast it when you need it, you are not needing them both 5 times a day. Take the one you need most, enjoy the free voice of the chain and you still get ab. Investment is also built in, you dont need it to command your guy.
At 8 invocations AB, mystic arcanum 3rd, mystic arcanum 4th (shadow of moil), misty visions. You prep disguise self and have 4 first level slots to cast it with.
At 9 you grab the chain invocation and the 3rd mystic arcanum becomes a 5th because you don't need the third anymore.
In addition you still voice of the chain on top of it.
In point of fact, I do need Mask of Many faces for this character, as well as Misty Visions. And sprites don't wait a full round to reup their invisibility, since they use a reaction to attack off my bonus action and have their own place in the initiative. Which also means my sprite can attack every round, while your familiar is forced to alternate actions between invisibility and attacking. And while I obviously cannot use both Banishment and Moil at the same time, I have in point of fact used them both in the same combat. First tossed a Banishment at the boss to see if I could either make them take a breather or burn an LR if they had one at the opening, and then when I saw their AC, popped Moil to help ensure my attacks got through. And regardless of when I take Mystic Arcanum, it still throws off the rest of my Invocation progression, and that's a single 3rd level spell, whereas I currently have at least three in the rotation.
Also, Voice of the Chain is the equivalent of floor mats here, not a selling point.
Ok so you dont know how investment of the chain master works. You use your bonus action to command it to take the attack action WHICH IT TAKES ON ITS TURN. it has to wait a full round to turn invisible again.
And you are going to need to explain exactly what you are doing with mask of many faces that you think you need more than 4 castings a day of it.
Base Chain has the Warlock use their Attack action to allow the Familiar to immediately take theirs as a reaction. Therefore the obvious application of Investment is to upgrade your ability to order the attack to only using a Bonus Action instead of a full Action. It's an upgrade, therefore it should logically interact with the preexisting parameters of how the familiar attacks, which is as a reaction in response to your command. We're getting into the weeds of interpreting RAI from a somewhat ambiguous text, but I can't find any official ruling or similar statement that this interpretation is wrong.
And obviously I'm using Mask of Many Faces full time. What kind of Feylock illusionist walks around showing their mundane face to everyone? Obviously this isn't a super optimized pick, but again the point is that Invocations should be left open to flexible customizations like this, not having to be relegated to getting limited access to something the class already had as a core feature.
Right and with 4 slots it will last 4 hours.
But sure take mask of many faces and take silent image. 4 castings of silent image + minor illusion cantrip is more than enough for 95% of games.
You're missing why I want both as Invocations. It's not about simply being able to cast the spells. It's about being able to have fun and play with the spells. It's about just being able to do something fun or off the wall with them without having to keep a slot in reserve or ask myself if it's worth using a slot. Those kind of at-will features are a big selling point of Warlock, and the new setup means you either lose a massive chunk of performance or lose those options.
Ok, to reiterate my actual point because the thread is being lost.
I agree that new lock should have one more invocation at 3. It would solve a lot of the issues.
But the playstyle between the 2 locks is nearly identical. You are still casting your one concentration spell and eldritch blast for most fights. You have more low level slots and more preparations meaning your out of combat utility is increased.
Ok, to reiterate my actual point because the thread is being lost.
I agree that new lock should have one more invocation at 3. It would solve a lot of the issues.
But the playstyle between the 2 locks is nearly identical. You are still casting your one concentration spell and eldritch blast for most fights. You have more low level slots and more preparations meaning your out of combat utility is increased.
It's not the same if you have to hit mid-tier 3 before you have the opportunity to get more than a single 4th level cast a day.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try. I have done side by side builds, new has more spells known, more slots and just as many if not more build options.
I did take a look at it. As I've said, burning most if not all of my invocations just to get the same spell range I had as a default class feature does not appeal to me.
No, the biggest issue is the loss of full caster progression and high level spells as a core feature, not something you have to pay for build-wise. I've seen effective Rangers in play, and they don't feel like casters at all. It's a martial class who uses a small rotation of spells. That is not a "Mage" class, which is allegedly what Warlock is supposed to be. Spin it however you want, having to drop about half your Invocations to get something close to the same performance you got as a base class feature in the previous iteration is a massive rip-off, and forces you to choose between having an actual caster and having the flexibility to customize your build.
Try actually building it and playing it. This is just screaming I didnt try.
Again I say -- if you want a warlock that casts spells like a wizard, just re-flavor a wizard to say your magic comes from a pact
I don't want them to cast spells like a Wizard; nor do I want them to cast spells like a Ranger. I want them to be a Warlock.
You took a look at it you didnt try it because otherwise you wouldn't be saying what you are. You dont burn all your invocation slots. Bad faith arguments after bad faith argument that doesn't accurately portray what the new warlock is capable of at all.
Paladins dont get full casting like his full casting priest brethren but he is still a priest.
Paladins also get a lot more martial support, and Channel Divinity, as well as list prepping. And calling my argument bad faith just because I came to a different conclusion than you did is itself a bad faith argument. With my current build, I have access to Shadow of Moil, Banishment, Mask of Many Faces, and Misty Visions at level 8, in addition to AB and Investiture for core support. At level 9 I'll have Dominate Person and another Invocation to play with. Under the new setup at that level I'm forced to choose between Shadow of Moil or Banishment, my familiar is only good for poking enemies a few times before dying in combat, and I have to spend the upcoming Invocation to get Dominate Person, which also means my familiar remains ineffective until at least level 11, at which point I'd then missing out on getting a 6th level spell when I normally would, so regardless of what I pick I'm losing something I already had. But please, tell me more about how I can maintain my same build under this new setup, instead of getting massively nerfed on spell power and invocation flexibility.
This is a perfect example of the bad faith. Completely miss representing the new lock because you haven't tried.
The new familiar is just as survivable if not more so than the old. The sprite breaks invisibility on attack, it needs to wait a full round to turn invisible again. The new one doesn't break on attack, because of this BOTH will be out of reach of melee when they are visible. New one just has more health.
2. You aren't casting both shadow of moil and banishment, so clearly one of them is more valuable.
3. You do NOT have to take mystic arcanum at 9 to get a 5th level spell. You took it at 5 and can trade the 3rd level arcanum for the 5th level one. There is no delay for the 9th level invocation.
4. You have first level slots you can have silent image or disguise self as a spell and cast it when you need it, you are not needing them both 5 times a day. Take the one you need most, enjoy the free voice of the chain and you still get ab. Investment is also built in, you dont need it to command your guy.
At 8 invocations AB, mystic arcanum 3rd, mystic arcanum 4th (shadow of moil), misty visions. You prep disguise self and have 4 first level slots to cast it with.
At 9 you grab the chain invocation and the 3rd mystic arcanum becomes a 5th because you don't need the third anymore.
In addition you still voice of the chain on top of it.
In point of fact, I do need Mask of Many faces for this character, as well as Misty Visions. And sprites don't wait a full round to reup their invisibility, since they use a reaction to attack off my bonus action and have their own place in the initiative. Which also means my sprite can attack every round, while your familiar is forced to alternate actions between invisibility and attacking. And while I obviously cannot use both Banishment and Moil at the same time, I have in point of fact used them both in the same combat. First tossed a Banishment at the boss to see if I could either make them take a breather or burn an LR if they had one at the opening, and then when I saw their AC, popped Moil to help ensure my attacks got through. And regardless of when I take Mystic Arcanum, it still throws off the rest of my Invocation progression, and that's a single 3rd level spell, whereas I currently have at least three in the rotation.
Also, Voice of the Chain is the equivalent of floor mats here, not a selling point.
Ok so you dont know how investment of the chain master works. You use your bonus action to command it to take the attack action WHICH IT TAKES ON ITS TURN. it has to wait a full round to turn invisible again.
And you are going to need to explain exactly what you are doing with mask of many faces that you think you need more than 4 castings a day of it.
Base Chain has the Warlock use their Attack action to allow the Familiar to immediately take theirs as a reaction. Therefore the obvious application of Investment is to upgrade your ability to order the attack to only using a Bonus Action instead of a full Action. It's an upgrade, therefore it should logically interact with the preexisting parameters of how the familiar attacks, which is as a reaction in response to your command. We're getting into the weeds of interpreting RAI from a somewhat ambiguous text, but I can't find any official ruling or similar statement that this interpretation is wrong.
And obviously I'm using Mask of Many Faces full time. What kind of Feylock illusionist walks around showing their mundane face to everyone? Obviously this isn't a super optimized pick, but again the point is that Invocations should be left open to flexible customizations like this, not having to be relegated to getting limited access to something the class already had as a core feature.
Right and with 4 slots it will last 4 hours.
But sure take mask of many faces and take silent image. 4 castings of silent image + minor illusion cantrip is more than enough for 95% of games.
You're missing why I want both as Invocations. It's not about simply being able to cast the spells. It's about being able to have fun and play with the spells. It's about just being able to do something fun or off the wall with them without having to keep a slot in reserve or ask myself if it's worth using a slot. Those kind of at-will features are a big selling point of Warlock, and the new setup means you either lose a massive chunk of performance or lose those options.
I actually do get that, the point I am making is you shouldn't be worried about your first level slots, you have your 2nd level slots and your arcanums for combat. I get a lot of people do worry about them. I DO think the lock should have an extra invocation. Hell i am in the boat of an extra invocation at 3 mystic arcanum unlocking at 3 AND AB being rolled into eldritch blast. That is 2 more invocations total on top of everything else.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the "half caster" thing you have been on about outside this. Or flavor playstyle.
I am 100% of a similar ilk to you. Archfey chainlock is by far my favorite.
I love Misty visions, I love mask of many faces. But I also know that I can take misty visions and disguise self as a spell and change my face like 2 times and throughout the day my character wears like 3 different faces. I can take detect magic and cast it as a ritual. I auto have phantasmal force and can cast it without a slot. I have auto have fairie fire and first level slots to use it with. I have my AOE fear bomb for fights and my polymorph or some other 4th level bomb for a different fight.
In both cases out of combat I am an illusionist enchanter out of combat and in combat fire my concentration spell and then eldritch blasts NEVER worrying about the GM or my fellow players screwing me over for short rests because I cast charm person while under the effects of disguise self and now I want to take a short rest with a different face before we go adventuring somewhere or being down a whole slot.
The whole trick is not every game is bad with short rests, but not every game is good with them either.
If you made short rests 10 minutes I would be willing to bet you would go from 2 spells per short rest to 1 for balance because short rests would become too common, too easy.
If they just let the warlock recover their stuff with a 10 minute ritual PB times per day or something. The issue becomes those slots are still effectively per long rest and your not wasting a casting on flavor there. But sure they could do that and then at will invocations become even more crucial.
At will spells become less crucial for flavor when you have an abundance of slots to cast flavor spells with.
It is not 1 for 1 I know it isnt. There is work that needs being done, I know. But this isnt a ranger. This isnt a paladin, this isn't a traditional half caster. Pretending that it is, is completely disingenuous.
One more invocation at 3rd, which can be spent on a 2nd-level Mystic Arcanum, would be perfect and get the Warlock exactly where it needs to be. We have precedent for getting the same feature in consecutive levels with the new Fighter (ASI at 4 and 5, 15 and 16.)
Two other changes I would make:
1) For the Chainlock - let the Gaze of Two Minds invocation work on the Pact Familiar. Being able to cast your spells through your familiar would give it great utility, both before and after voice of the Chain Master comes online.
2) For Mystic Arcanum - let you pick a permanently-upcast version of a lower-level spell for that slot. For example, your 6th-level MA could be spent on Summon Fey upcast to 6th. That allows Warlocks to be the summoners they should be without just straight up giving them higher level spell slots.
I am going to extend an olive branch with 2 stories of an Archfey Warlock, both the same lock, from the same game.
9th level my character is an Eladrin archfey warlock and as one of my spells I took dream, we had previously met the BBEG and had kind of started work out they are evil. The rest of my party are not short rest classes, we have a ranger, a wizard and arcane trickster rogue. While the party is taking a long rest I use the dream spell on a couple of them so they can speak with their loved ones, I take a short rest. Then I do dream but this time entering the dreams of an NPC disguised as their lover and get them to have a dream confessional where I confirm what we suspected about the BBEG. Then I cast it one more time, giving the BBEG a nightmare before taking a 4 hour long rest thanks to trance. Wasted no "moment of the day".
This would be impossible with any form of long rest warlock. Because it would be hard to justify giving up 4 5th level casts for this.
The second story, same group, same lock, same campaign. We have an encounter where I end up having to dispel a powerful magic trap and then dimension door myself and our best fighter to cut off an escaping enemy. We win that fight, but I am out of slots the ranger's pet is low on health and so are a couple of our NPC'S. We are heading to a ruin or some weird guys house. My character goes, "hey we have some injuries, the ranger's pet is injured so he may want to stop too and bandage him up and I am tired, lets take a quick short rest here before we head up to our destination and get in a fight". The party " you dont know we are going to get into a fight there that's meta gaming." And the ranger "dont tell me how I feel about my pet" and we truck forward. Sure enough we get in a fight and I am stuck shooting eldritch blast, after that, barely saving the lives of the NPC'S the party decides it is a good time to go back to town and take a LONG rest.
Same game, same group, campaign, same warlock.
I hate to give up the first story, but I would to never have to deal with another story like the second again.
One more invocation at 3rd, which can be spent on a 2nd-level Mystic Arcanum, would be perfect and get the Warlock exactly where it needs to be. We have precedent for getting the same feature in consecutive levels with the new Fighter (ASI at 4 and 5, 15 and 16.)
Two other changes I would make:
1) For the Chainlock - let the Gaze of Two Minds invocation work on the Pact Familiar. Being able to cast your spells through your familiar would give it great utility, both before and after voice of the Chain Master comes online.
2) For Mystic Arcanum - let you pick a permanently-upcast version of a lower-level spell for that slot. For example, your 6th-level MA could be spent on Summon Fey upcast to 6th. That allows Warlocks to be the summoners they should be without just straight up giving them higher level spell slots.
Remember arcanum isn't a slot, when you cast a spell without consuming a slot it is cast at its lowest level. Either arcanum becomes a proper spell slot or you cant upcast lower level spells with it.
How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Make Mystic Arcanums the core spellcasting feature for Warlock.
Get rid of spell slots and adjust the maximum number of Eldritch Invocations accordingly (maybe not 1 to 1).
Allow taking the same 1st-5th level spells as Mystic Arcanums more than once.
Allow the warlock to choose at what level they want to take the spell as their Arcanum, so when you pick the Arcanum you set the level you will always cast it as.
Make the number of times you can cast a spell chosen as Mystic Arcanum reversely proportional to the level you've chosen it at.
1st level spells 5x
2nd level spells 4x
3rd level spells 3x
4th level spells 2x
5th level spells 1x
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Make Mystic Arcanums the core spellcasting feature for Warlock.
Get rid of spell slots and adjust the maximum number of Eldritch Invocations accordingly (maybe not 1 to 1).
Allow taking the same 1st-5th level spells as Mystic Arcanums more than once.
Allow the warlock to choose at what level they want to take the spell as their Arcanum, so when you pick the Arcanum you set the level you will always cast it as.
Make the number of times you can cast a spell chosen as Mystic Arcanum reversely proportional to the level you've chosen it at.
1st level spells 5x
2nd level spells 4x
3rd level spells 3x
4th level spells 2x
5th level spells 1x
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
Someone just went "lets go full vancian casting on this where you have to prepare each slot specifically".
How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Make Mystic Arcanums the core spellcasting feature for Warlock.
Get rid of spell slots and adjust the maximum number of Eldritch Invocations accordingly (maybe not 1 to 1).
Allow taking the same 1st-5th level spells as Mystic Arcanums more than once.
Allow the warlock to choose at what level they want to take the spell as their Arcanum, so when you pick the Arcanum you set the level you will always cast it as.
Make the number of times you can cast a spell chosen as Mystic Arcanum reversely proportional to the level you've chosen it at.
1st level spells 5x
2nd level spells 4x
3rd level spells 3x
4th level spells 2x
5th level spells 1x
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
Someone just went "lets go full vancian casting on this where you have to prepare each slot specifically".
Well my last suggestion was shot down with "not vancian enough" lol.
But think about it, it sort of fits with the theme of 5e warlocks and their Eldritch Invocations.
How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Make Mystic Arcanums the core spellcasting feature for Warlock.
Get rid of spell slots and adjust the maximum number of Eldritch Invocations accordingly (maybe not 1 to 1).
Allow taking the same 1st-5th level spells as Mystic Arcanums more than once.
Allow the warlock to choose at what level they want to take the spell as their Arcanum, so when you pick the Arcanum you set the level you will always cast it as.
Make the number of times you can cast a spell chosen as Mystic Arcanum reversely proportional to the level you've chosen it at.
1st level spells 5x
2nd level spells 4x
3rd level spells 3x
4th level spells 2x
5th level spells 1x
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
Someone just went "lets go full vancian casting on this where you have to prepare each slot specifically".
Well my last suggestion was shot down with "not vancian enough" lol.
But think about it, it sort of fits with the theme of 5e warlocks and their Eldritch Invocations.
Yep and it is so why I am so against Mystic arcanum being not a proper spell slot anymore. Full on vancian casting is wildly out of date in modern game design, and yet we have the warlock with its core power being full on vancian.
How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Make Mystic Arcanums the core spellcasting feature for Warlock.
Get rid of spell slots and adjust the maximum number of Eldritch Invocations accordingly (maybe not 1 to 1).
Allow taking the same 1st-5th level spells as Mystic Arcanums more than once.
Allow the warlock to choose at what level they want to take the spell as their Arcanum, so when you pick the Arcanum you set the level you will always cast it as.
Make the number of times you can cast a spell chosen as Mystic Arcanum reversely proportional to the level you've chosen it at.
1st level spells 5x
2nd level spells 4x
3rd level spells 3x
4th level spells 2x
5th level spells 1x
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
Someone just went "lets go full vancian casting on this where you have to prepare each slot specifically".
Well my last suggestion was shot down with "not vancian enough" lol.
But think about it, it sort of fits with the theme of 5e warlocks and their Eldritch Invocations.
Yep and it is so why I am so against Mystic arcanum being not a proper spell slot anymore. Full on vancian casting is wildly out of date in modern game design, and yet we have the warlock with its core power being full on vancian.
If I had my way, we'd do away with spell slots completely and make all classes use Spell Points.
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I have by rebuilding my existing characters, at most levels I ended up a invocation short. And while I cast more spells in a single encounter, given that my games don't exist in the no short rests allowed tables it was pretty dang close across the day with lower levels me having more, and all of mine were max level. The one I'm looking at right now, I didn't pick up voice of the chain master on one of them and I guess i'd of got that for free, but since it wasn't part of my plan or build, meh. So that one is down either 2 or one depending on how you look at the freebie voice. He's level 10, at 20 maybe it would look a bit better, I'm not so sure as instead of 2 towards mystic arcanum id have 4. So I could literally have the exact same invocations I have now at 20 and yeah voice of the chain master for free. So even if I took voice, I'd still have two more for things like visions of distant realms and witch sight.
And even if the invocations magically balanced out like instead of 9 they bumped it to 12, id still be irritated that I'm forced to spend invocations on things i should get for free and I'd still hate half casting compared to pact magic. As I like pact magic, and after playing a decent number of them I hate 1/2 casters.
I don't play a fey lock and I have mask of many faces and there is almost no day that isn't a pure dungeon crawl type day I don't cast it a dozen times, same with misty visions.
My Archfey Warlock probably doesn't need Mask of Many Faces more than three times on a normal day in a city. I'll likely swap it out soon. Been wanting to try Cloak of Flies.
Edit: I do like it. It's been a lot of fun being able to spam Disguise Self. But I can probably get what I need out of just casting the spell normally. Also I think it's lame that there's a low-rarity magic item that does the same thing.
Right and with 4 slots it will last 4 hours.
But sure take mask of many faces and take silent image. 4 castings of silent image + minor illusion cantrip is more than enough for 95% of games.
Are you accouting for the extra first level spells for utility, or accounting for extra total spell preparations because of the auto pact magic preps. My games dont lack short rests, but you dont always get them exactly when you need them. Opportunities are lost.
There are still opportunities lost with the new one. It isnt exact, but the power is transfered
I'll cast it 4 times in a hour. Its a fantastic infiltration tool when you can use it at will.
Yes, I am. I'm not claiming its a massive power loss, its a massive fun loss, for how I play its a loss in invocations, its a loss in style and uniqueness, its just no longer a warlock. I give 0 **** if it is equal or even slightly better than the current lock, though with how I make my characters and play the game it is a bit weaker. What I do care about is that it is no longer a warlock.
The Hat of Disguise is an attuned item. 3 attunement slots with things like Robe of the Archmagi, Rod of the Pact Keeper, Ring of Spell Storing, etc. competing for slots vs 4-6 Invocations in the typical range of play. Obviously it's not essential on the same tier as Agonizing Blast, but it's fun to have and you have significantly more Invocation slots than attunement slots.
You're missing why I want both as Invocations. It's not about simply being able to cast the spells. It's about being able to have fun and play with the spells. It's about just being able to do something fun or off the wall with them without having to keep a slot in reserve or ask myself if it's worth using a slot. Those kind of at-will features are a big selling point of Warlock, and the new setup means you either lose a massive chunk of performance or lose those options.
Ok, to reiterate my actual point because the thread is being lost.
I agree that new lock should have one more invocation at 3. It would solve a lot of the issues.
But the playstyle between the 2 locks is nearly identical. You are still casting your one concentration spell and eldritch blast for most fights. You have more low level slots and more preparations meaning your out of combat utility is increased.
It's not the same if you have to hit mid-tier 3 before you have the opportunity to get more than a single 4th level cast a day.
I actually do get that, the point I am making is you shouldn't be worried about your first level slots, you have your 2nd level slots and your arcanums for combat. I get a lot of people do worry about them. I DO think the lock should have an extra invocation. Hell i am in the boat of an extra invocation at 3 mystic arcanum unlocking at 3 AND AB being rolled into eldritch blast. That is 2 more invocations total on top of everything else.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the "half caster" thing you have been on about outside this. Or flavor playstyle.
I am 100% of a similar ilk to you. Archfey chainlock is by far my favorite.
I love Misty visions, I love mask of many faces. But I also know that I can take misty visions and disguise self as a spell and change my face like 2 times and throughout the day my character wears like 3 different faces. I can take detect magic and cast it as a ritual. I auto have phantasmal force and can cast it without a slot. I have auto have fairie fire and first level slots to use it with. I have my AOE fear bomb for fights and my polymorph or some other 4th level bomb for a different fight.
In both cases out of combat I am an illusionist enchanter out of combat and in combat fire my concentration spell and then eldritch blasts NEVER worrying about the GM or my fellow players screwing me over for short rests because I cast charm person while under the effects of disguise self and now I want to take a short rest with a different face before we go adventuring somewhere or being down a whole slot.
The whole trick is not every game is bad with short rests, but not every game is good with them either.
If you made short rests 10 minutes I would be willing to bet you would go from 2 spells per short rest to 1 for balance because short rests would become too common, too easy.
If they just let the warlock recover their stuff with a 10 minute ritual PB times per day or something. The issue becomes those slots are still effectively per long rest and your not wasting a casting on flavor there. But sure they could do that and then at will invocations become even more crucial.
At will spells become less crucial for flavor when you have an abundance of slots to cast flavor spells with.
It is not 1 for 1 I know it isnt. There is work that needs being done, I know. But this isnt a ranger. This isnt a paladin, this isn't a traditional half caster. Pretending that it is, is completely disingenuous.
One more invocation at 3rd, which can be spent on a 2nd-level Mystic Arcanum, would be perfect and get the Warlock exactly where it needs to be. We have precedent for getting the same feature in consecutive levels with the new Fighter (ASI at 4 and 5, 15 and 16.)
Two other changes I would make:
1) For the Chainlock - let the Gaze of Two Minds invocation work on the Pact Familiar. Being able to cast your spells through your familiar would give it great utility, both before and after voice of the Chain Master comes online.
2) For Mystic Arcanum - let you pick a permanently-upcast version of a lower-level spell for that slot. For example, your 6th-level MA could be spent on Summon Fey upcast to 6th. That allows Warlocks to be the summoners they should be without just straight up giving them higher level spell slots.
I am going to extend an olive branch with 2 stories of an Archfey Warlock, both the same lock, from the same game.
9th level my character is an Eladrin archfey warlock and as one of my spells I took dream, we had previously met the BBEG and had kind of started work out they are evil. The rest of my party are not short rest classes, we have a ranger, a wizard and arcane trickster rogue. While the party is taking a long rest I use the dream spell on a couple of them so they can speak with their loved ones, I take a short rest. Then I do dream but this time entering the dreams of an NPC disguised as their lover and get them to have a dream confessional where I confirm what we suspected about the BBEG. Then I cast it one more time, giving the BBEG a nightmare before taking a 4 hour long rest thanks to trance. Wasted no "moment of the day".
This would be impossible with any form of long rest warlock. Because it would be hard to justify giving up 4 5th level casts for this.
The second story, same group, same lock, same campaign. We have an encounter where I end up having to dispel a powerful magic trap and then dimension door myself and our best fighter to cut off an escaping enemy. We win that fight, but I am out of slots the ranger's pet is low on health and so are a couple of our NPC'S. We are heading to a ruin or some weird guys house. My character goes, "hey we have some injuries, the ranger's pet is injured so he may want to stop too and bandage him up and I am tired, lets take a quick short rest here before we head up to our destination and get in a fight". The party " you dont know we are going to get into a fight there that's meta gaming." And the ranger "dont tell me how I feel about my pet" and we truck forward. Sure enough we get in a fight and I am stuck shooting eldritch blast, after that, barely saving the lives of the NPC'S the party decides it is a good time to go back to town and take a LONG rest.
Same game, same group, campaign, same warlock.
I hate to give up the first story, but I would to never have to deal with another story like the second again.
Remember arcanum isn't a slot, when you cast a spell without consuming a slot it is cast at its lowest level. Either arcanum becomes a proper spell slot or you cant upcast lower level spells with it.
How about getting rid of "Spells Prepared" and "Spell Slots" entirely?
Now if the Warlock wants to spend 10 Eldritch Invocations on Shield so they can cast it 50x times per long rest... just let them lol.
Someone just went "lets go full vancian casting on this where you have to prepare each slot specifically".
Well my last suggestion was shot down with "not vancian enough" lol.
But think about it, it sort of fits with the theme of 5e warlocks and their Eldritch Invocations.
Yep and it is so why I am so against Mystic arcanum being not a proper spell slot anymore. Full on vancian casting is wildly out of date in modern game design, and yet we have the warlock with its core power being full on vancian.
If I had my way, we'd do away with spell slots completely and make all classes use Spell Points.