Nah the warlock is a full caster this desire to change them into a goth ranger wrecks the class. Making people pay to get what they should get at default is terrible design even if its hidden behind flexibility as an excuse.
The reason to charge for mystic arcanum is that it means you can choose how caster-y your character is; if you're better at casting spells, you're worse at doing other things. This is what we call 'game balance'. Now, this doesn't mean it's been balanced correctly, but the concept is sensible.
How would this variant be?
Medium armor is removed from base warlock, added to pact of the blade.
Pact of the Tome has full caster level, but half (round down) as many invocations, and cannot take mystic invocations.
Pact of the Chain gets some upgrades to the familiar (probably on a par with the primal companions from TCoE)
Nah the warlock is a full caster this desire to change them into a goth ranger wrecks the class. Making people pay to get what they should get at default is terrible design even if its hidden behind flexibility as an excuse.
The reason to charge for mystic arcanum is that it means you can choose how caster-y your character is; if you're better at casting spells, you're worse at doing other things. This is what we call 'game balance'. Now, this doesn't mean it's been balanced correctly, but the concept is sensible.
How would this variant be?
Medium armor is removed from base warlock, added to pact of the blade.
Pact of the Tome has full caster level, but half (round down) as many invocations, and cannot take mystic invocations.
Pact of the Chain gets some upgrades to the familiar (probably on a par with the primal companions from TCoE)
That would suck, I don't want to play a goth ranger I want to play a warlock.
Nah the warlock is a full caster this desire to change them into a goth ranger wrecks the class. Making people pay to get what they should get at default is terrible design even if its hidden behind flexibility as an excuse.
The reason to charge for mystic arcanum is that it means you can choose how caster-y your character is; if you're better at casting spells, you're worse at doing other things. This is what we call 'game balance'. Now, this doesn't mean it's been balanced correctly, but the concept is sensible.
How would this variant be?
Medium armor is removed from base warlock, added to pact of the blade.
Pact of the Tome has full caster level, but half (round down) as many invocations, and cannot take mystic invocations.
Pact of the Chain gets some upgrades to the familiar (probably on a par with the primal companions from TCoE)
Honestly, not a fan of most of these suggestions. Full caster gishes with medium and sometimes heavy armor prof existed already in 5e (martial clerics, hexblade, college of valor and swords), and clerics can still pick up the heavy armor. Taxing invocations is why so many people hate the new Warlock setup, so codifying it as a base feature of tomelock doesn't actually adjust the problem. As for chainlock, honestly they need to stop pushing to make the familiar this relevant unless they want to commit to a much stronger baseline (and honestly I'd prefer they stop trying to shoehorn everything into a single standardized template and go back to saying "pick from the following blocks"); as it stands the familiar is too weak to be reliable in combat and the hour casting time to resummon it means it can easily end up gone until the start of the next day once it's dropped. Really, given the headache and drama I've seen around class pets like this in other places, I really think they just need to leave it at base familiar and stop trying to make it into a combat pet.
Warlocks need to be casting their spells at full caster power level. That's not negotiable for me, both because lorewise the patron's sales pitch seems a lot less tempting to me if they're only as magical as a Ranger and because gameplay-wise that kind of power is what's expected of any Mage class, and any Invocation tax simply undermines a player's ability to truly customize their Warlock.
Honestly, not a fan of most of these suggestions. Full caster gishes with medium and sometimes heavy armor prof existed already in 5e (martial clerics, hexblade, college of valor and swords), and clerics can still pick up the heavy armor. Taxing invocations is why so many people hate the new Warlock setup, so codifying it as a base feature of tomelock doesn't actually adjust the problem.
Then reverse it: reduce base invocations, add extras as features of the other types. Or maybe only to bladelock, depending on how the chainlock is intended to work (I think chainlock doesn't currently work).
Honestly, not a fan of most of these suggestions. Full caster gishes with medium and sometimes heavy armor prof existed already in 5e (martial clerics, hexblade, college of valor and swords), and clerics can still pick up the heavy armor. Taxing invocations is why so many people hate the new Warlock setup, so codifying it as a base feature of tomelock doesn't actually adjust the problem.
Then reverse it: reduce base invocations, add extras as features of the other types. Or maybe only to bladelock, depending on how the chainlock is intended to work (I think chainlock doesn't currently work).
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
Nah the warlock is a full caster this desire to change them into a goth ranger wrecks the class. Making people pay to get what they should get at default is terrible design even if its hidden behind flexibility as an excuse.
The reason to charge for mystic arcanum is that it means you can choose how caster-y your character is; if you're better at casting spells, you're worse at doing other things. This is what we call 'game balance'. Now, this doesn't mean it's been balanced correctly, but the concept is sensible.
How would this variant be?
Medium armor is removed from base warlock, added to pact of the blade.
Pact of the Tome has full caster level, but half (round down) as many invocations, and cannot take mystic invocations.
Pact of the Chain gets some upgrades to the familiar (probably on a par with the primal companions from TCoE)
I agree with your first part, but making Tome a full caster would just make it strictly better than the other two, especially Chain (even with buffs).
MA is fine as it is now, just give one more invocation at 3rd and let MA be available then too to make it perfect. Also Tome should work with all three mental stats imo.
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
You're missing my point: full caster and full warlock features is a nonoption. Pact Casting is a nonoption with gaining the Arcane spell list, too many spells are dependent on the daily timing so you would need to heavily curate the list (which is why the warlock's spell list in 5e is so terrible).
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
You're missing my point: full caster and full warlock features is a nonoption. Pact Casting is a nonoption with gaining the Arcane spell list, too many spells are dependent on the daily timing so you would need to heavily curate the list (which is why the warlock's spell list in 5e is so terrible).
Even if that's the case- and I do not remained convinced of that- that is why they need to come up with a real alternative instead of just using half-caster as a cop-out and calling it a day. Half caster tanks the power level too much, and the pact boons don't do nearly enough to make up the difference, while the Invocation tax just reduces the player's ability to actually make meaningful design choices because they're shoehorned into dumping at least 4 invocations to get the same access they used to have as a base feature.
Also, can you explain what you mean about the "daily timing"? The Warlock list in 5e is abridged but perfectly serviceable, so I'm not seeing what the issue is on them having more options but the same number of slots is.
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
You're missing my point: full caster and full warlock features is a nonoption. Pact Casting is a nonoption with gaining the Arcane spell list, too many spells are dependent on the daily timing so you would need to heavily curate the list (which is why the warlock's spell list in 5e is so terrible).
Even if that's the case- and I do not remained convinced of that- that is why they need to come up with a real alternative instead of just using half-caster as a cop-out and calling it a day. Half caster tanks the power level too much, and the pact boons don't do nearly enough to make up the difference, while the Invocation tax just reduces the player's ability to actually make meaningful design choices because they're shoehorned into dumping at least 4 invocations to get the same access they used to have as a base feature.
Also, can you explain what you mean about the "daily timing"? The Warlock list in 5e is abridged but perfectly serviceable, so I'm not seeing what the issue is on them having more options but the same number of slots is.
New warlock set up, auto gain current way mystic arcanum at 3,7,11,17 without use of invocation, no change to base way boons work. Buffs to chain boon.
At 3 spells slots are , 3 first, 1 second, at 5, 4 first, 2 second, 1 third, at 7, 4 first, 3 second, 1 third, 1 4th, at 9, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, at 11, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, at 13, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th at 15 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and at 17, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th. and finally at 19, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th.
Edit: to be clear what he means by "daily timing" they aren't doing separate class lists anymore. This is on purpose for future content. They want to add a spell and say it is on one of 3 lists and it is this spell school and if you have access to that, great. This way they can create more classes in the future as well and you don't have to own every book for it to work. The warlocks won't get their own list, at the same time there are some spells they considered to strong to be able to cast multiple times a day with just a short rest, or would have duration issues if you could cast it wait an hour and cast it again. A perfect example is just about any of the invocations that give you a spell that you cast with a slot, like bestow curse, which when cast at 5th level has no concentration and lasts 8 hours. You could almost permanently curse someone at level 9, which is a 9th level bestow curse. But they wanted you to be able to curse people so they made it an invocation and made it "per day" limited to prevent potential shenanigans.
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
You're missing my point: full caster and full warlock features is a nonoption. Pact Casting is a nonoption with gaining the Arcane spell list, too many spells are dependent on the daily timing so you would need to heavily curate the list (which is why the warlock's spell list in 5e is so terrible).
Even if that's the case- and I do not remained convinced of that- that is why they need to come up with a real alternative instead of just using half-caster as a cop-out and calling it a day. Half caster tanks the power level too much, and the pact boons don't do nearly enough to make up the difference, while the Invocation tax just reduces the player's ability to actually make meaningful design choices because they're shoehorned into dumping at least 4 invocations to get the same access they used to have as a base feature.
Also, can you explain what you mean about the "daily timing"? The Warlock list in 5e is abridged but perfectly serviceable, so I'm not seeing what the issue is on them having more options but the same number of slots is.
New warlock set up, auto gain current way mystic arcanum at 3,7,11,17 without use of invocation, no change to base way boons work. Buffs to chain boon.
At 3 spells slots are , 3 first, 1 second, at 5, 4 first, 2 second, 1 third, at 7, 4 first, 3 second, 1 third, 1 4th, at 9, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, at 11, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, at 13, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th at 15 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and at 17, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th. and finally at 19, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th.
Maybe, if that's leaving me with the same number of invocations. Still a rip off compared to 5e, but more salvageable.
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
You're missing my point: full caster and full warlock features is a nonoption. Pact Casting is a nonoption with gaining the Arcane spell list, too many spells are dependent on the daily timing so you would need to heavily curate the list (which is why the warlock's spell list in 5e is so terrible).
Even if that's the case- and I do not remained convinced of that- that is why they need to come up with a real alternative instead of just using half-caster as a cop-out and calling it a day. Half caster tanks the power level too much, and the pact boons don't do nearly enough to make up the difference, while the Invocation tax just reduces the player's ability to actually make meaningful design choices because they're shoehorned into dumping at least 4 invocations to get the same access they used to have as a base feature.
Also, can you explain what you mean about the "daily timing"? The Warlock list in 5e is abridged but perfectly serviceable, so I'm not seeing what the issue is on them having more options but the same number of slots is.
New warlock set up, auto gain current way mystic arcanum at 3,7,11,17 without use of invocation, no change to base way boons work. Buffs to chain boon.
At 3 spells slots are , 3 first, 1 second, at 5, 4 first, 2 second, 1 third, at 7, 4 first, 3 second, 1 third, 1 4th, at 9, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, at 11, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, at 13, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th at 15 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and at 17, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th. and finally at 19, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th.
Maybe, if that's leaving me with the same number of invocations. Still a rip off compared to 5e, but more salvageable.
Ya 9, + the boons. That was a suggested help out, because I still acknowledge that current UA is far from perfect. It is salvageable, but it is missing a bit.
one half of the warlock is a half-caster, representing your own occult studies
and the other half is old warlock pact magic slots, representing your patron's power
[PB] slots per day, following the standard fullcaster progression, usable for up to level 5 spells, or for Mystic Arcanum spells (one for each level from 6 to 9). You can use half-caster slots for utility and lesser stuff, like invisibility, and when you need that burst of arcane power that you made a pact for, you call out to your patron to blast with your pact slot. It kind of replicates the current iteration of Mystic Arcanum, but doesn't require to spend invocations on these, and gives a clearer idea of what the other half of warlock is.
one half of the warlock is a half-caster, representing your own occult studies
and the other half is old warlock pact magic slots, representing your patron's power
[PB] slots per day, following the standard fullcaster progression, usable for up to level 5 spells, or for Mystic Arcanum spells (one for each level from 6 to 9). You can use half-caster slots for utility and lesser stuff, like invisibility, and when you need that burst of arcane power that you made a pact for, you call out to your patron to blast with your pact slot. It kind of replicates the current iteration of Mystic Arcanum, but doesn't require to spend invocations on these, and gives a clearer idea of what the other half of warlock is.
Ideas to fix this odd half caster thing they are doing with warlocks.
1. Make Warlocks "2/3" casters just like Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are "1/3" casters. Have the spell progression somewhere in between half and full casters. Have it top out at level 7 spells. Make it so you take 2/3 Warlock level rounded down when you figure out multiclass spellcasting.
2. Make Warlocks half casters that as the level up they get more and more higher level spell slots but their lower levels reduce. For instance when levelling from 10->11 instead of going from 4-1st, 2-2nd, 2-3rd to 4-1st, 2-2nd, 3-3rd make it transition to 2-1st, 3-2nd, 3-3rd. Fewer number of spell slots, just progressively higher levels. In the end they automatically upcast most spells since they have so few low level spells but more higher level spells than other casters. The trick would be to figure out how to incorporate multiclassing.
3. Increase the number of pact slots gained/progression. Make it match close to PB for instance (not equal to it since that would be OP for multiclassing). So 5 slots at 13 and 6 at 17.
4. Leave Arcanum alone. They were big spell grenades you lobbed once a day. Making them part of the Invocation tax reduces their likelihood of being picked. Or if you want to make it more custom. Do both. Give 2 Arcanum for 6 and below and 8 and below. With the option to pick up more via Invocations. Warlocks should be the most flexible class.
5. Allow some recovery of slots in between rests. They definitely seem to want to divorce things from short rests. I've never been at a table that had that problem, even in ticking clock scenarios but since they've done things like "You can use this feature PB times per day" instead of reset on short rests. So do that for Warlock Pact Slots. Eldritch Master was a garbage lvl 20 ability but something as a class feature could work. Remove resets on short rests but add "Patrons Favor(Cantrip) - Casting time 1 minute - Restore all used Pact Magic slots, you can do this twice a day." or "Patrons Favor(Cantrip) - Casting time 1 minute - Restore one unused Pact Magic slot, you can do this 2xPB times per day." Going by the PHB of approximately 2x short rests per day the first option matches it but doesn't rely on the group having to take a short rest, and its a tactical decision when to use it if you have unused slots as their regeneration would be wasted.
6. Maybe make #3 or #5 a Pact of the Tome Higher level ability. Or an improved version of #3 or #5 (Book of Shadows should allow you transcribe other rituals (not just 2 level 1 spells) at level 5 instead of adding AS modifier to cantrips. Book of Ancient Secrets was an amazing Invocation to suck up all the rituals). Make the Pacts feel more different. Tomelocks can be more castery
7. Have your Pact Familiar "carry" a pact slot for you. So you get X slots and your familiar has 1 (spell is cast from its position) so you get X+1 slots per rest. Or make the Familiar's spot a once per day thing. Or you Familiar at level 5 gains the an Action Ability to restore one of your slots. Or casting through your familiar increases the level of the spell cast so a 4th level becomes a 5th once per short rest or PB per day.
8. Increase the number of Eldritch Invocations that give free spell casting. Most of the old Invocations that gave a spell but cost a spell slot to cast were garbage. Some low level at will spells or some low level utility spells once long rest/once per short rest/PB times per day. Like make Unseen Servant once per short rest with out a spell slot. Link it to Pact of the Chain. Link other spells to Pact of the Tome.
9. Restore a Pact Slot on a Crit with the Pact Weapon or a spell attack roll. Or if the creature rolls a 1 on a DC save against your spell.
10. Restore a Pact Slot when you land the killing blow.
11. If you have no pacts slots available restore 1 when rolling initiative (make it a level 11ish ability).
12. Half or 2/3 caster with Eldritch Amplifier When you cast a spell, you can choose to expend a charge of Eldritch Amplifier to cast the spell at higher level than the expended spell slot. Warlock level 3rd-4th, Amplified spell level 2nd. Warlock level 5th-6th, Amplified spell level 3rd. Warlock level 7th-8th, Amplified spell level 4th. Warlock level 9th+, Amplified spell level 5th.
one half of the warlock is a half-caster, representing your own occult studies
and the other half is old warlock pact magic slots, representing your patron's power
[PB] slots per day, following the standard fullcaster progression, usable for up to level 5 spells, or for Mystic Arcanum spells (one for each level from 6 to 9). You can use half-caster slots for utility and lesser stuff, like invisibility, and when you need that burst of arcane power that you made a pact for, you call out to your patron to blast with your pact slot. It kind of replicates the current iteration of Mystic Arcanum, but doesn't require to spend invocations on these, and gives a clearer idea of what the other half of warlock is.
Instead of PB it could be just one slot that recovers on a short rest. Honestly, I love this.
They are definitely looking to make Warlocks the most flexible magic class. Choices of spellcasting ability, armor, choice of a gish weapon, flexible cantrips and rituals, a familiar (Chainlock needs work). They are the only class as far as I can see with customization outside of the subclass and spell choice. This is done at first level with the Pacts. And later on with Invocations. I don't mind that Warlocks are going to be a Multiclass favorite. Multiclassing is a great part of the game but give a reason to stay in the class too. A monk warlock will be cool with a Wisdom powered Spear. An Arcane Trickster with extra Cantrips and rituals is great. A support Bard with a Celestial Familiar giving advantage on every other round is great.
Pacts.Add a level 11 upgrade as well.
Blade - I'm good, but either add the hexblade subclass or invocations later on that allow you to pick up a shield or 2 handed weapons (GWM is gone so that exploit isn't there). Or an invocation that allows the Warlock to use the weapon mastery associated with the summoned weapon. Or make this the level 11 upgrade.
Tome - Either add it as the level 5 upgrade or an invocation that you can scribe new Rituals into the book just like BoAS did. Free Agonizing Blast for all cantrips is ok but nothing to write home about. Make the ritual scribing the level 11 ability. Or give the ability to add a level 4 spell that isn't a ritual as a ritual (with casting greater than 10 minute)
Chain - Buff this. First of all fix the wording since Pact Familiar can only Dodge/move or attack with the Warlock's reaction in combat. But turning invisible isn't an attack or dodge and isn't one of those. Also as is, they can only attack every other turn without an AoO. Let the familiar be part of your turn so that you can have it do things first and you can gain benefits of the Favor of the Chain Master conditions.
Invocations - Need more modifications to Hex. It and EB are our class defining features. Maddening Hex and Relentless Hex. Rework the Hexblade's Curse as an invocation for spells, usable some number of times per day. Make it concentration free like Hunter's Mark. Have it give disadvantage on saving throws with the chosen ability not just ability checks. Have it interact with the familiar - advantage on attacks, more damage, bypass immunities of the Favor of the Chain Master conditions.
More invocations that give at will utility spells or PB times per day free spells (why is Mage armor in there with medium armor proficiency), give us an Unseen Servant free casts, give us low level fly at will (after level 11ish). Gate them with Tome or Chain if you need to or gate them with level.
When Book of Ancient Secrets was created Warlocks couldn't ritual cast.
Tome Warlock with Book of Ancient Secrets was the only Warlock that could.
Now any caster with a ritual spell can ritual cast it, Warlock included. If you want a ritual spell, choose it as one of your known spells.
Subclass features now appear at levels 6, 10, and 14, and only 6, 10, and 14. You're not getting another subclass feature.
The double-bladed scimitar is a two-handed weapon, but it is not heavy, making it eligible for Pact of the Blade.
Since Warlocks have low level slots now, a lot of invocations are redundant. Unless you desperately need on demand disguise self or silent image you can just choose them as known spells and cast them using slots. If you do need them, take Mask of Many Faces and/or Misty Visions.
I've suggested to Jeremy Crawford that Agonizing Blast should simply become a level 2 Class feature for Warlocks, since it's pretty much compulsory for Warlocks anyway. I also suggested that Hex should become a cantrip, Warlock exclusive, bonus action, concentration, and scale on Warlock levels like Eldritch Blast. 1d6 to 4d6 extra damage on an attack, once per turn. Perhaps 1d4 to 4d4 if people think the d6s are too strong. Make sure it's excluded from the Tomelock's bonus damage. Even when completely out of spell slots Warlock would still be able to debuff and blast people.
I think there are 9 invocations in order to fit the 1 to 9 Mystic Arcanum that Warlocks could take. If so there won't be any more, but we might be able to persuade the writers to include more class features, like making Agonizing Blast a class feature.
I haven’t been able to keep up in this thread but here are my thoughts.
Get rid of medium armor and save that for a subclass.
I’m fine with long rest spell slot recovery but think they need to keep pact magic. Maybe add a slot or two as you level. The “daily timing” can be controlled by how many spells you can prepare. These, and MA are your big “boom” spells (they don’t have to be damage spells but could be scaling utility, debuff type spells like Hold Person)
Add more spell options via Invocations to choose from at 1st and 2nd level range that don’t require a spell slot (although could be limited to x times per day for balance). These can be more utility or battlefield control options
Add Mystic Arcanum option at 3rd. And make them once a day or by using a spell slot. You only have up to 5th level slots so you still only get once a day on 6-9 level spells.
And need more “non-spell” invocations to round out builds that are not spell focused like buffs to Chain pact and Blade Pact. Although blade doesn’t seem so bad right now.
Since Mystic Arcanum is an Eldritch Invocation and you can get a 3rd or higher level spell you can build a real versatile caster even if the 5th level spells are only available at 17th. you can have your first at 9th.
Over all the spellcasting is broader than 2014. shifting the Extra attack to be part and parcel of the cantrip mean you don't have to dedicate 1 invocation to getting your extra attack freeing it up for something else.
having EB as a freebee makes your cantrip choices super open for niche things, even a Bladelock needs to have some ranged option and now not having to dedicate EB as a pick you could have some utility (mage hand, prestidigitation, ray of frost, shocking grasp) this opens up building options way more IMHO.
Building a Superduper spellcaster is really neat not a Pact of the Tome Warlock with Mystic Initiate as a background will have an arsenal of 5 Cantrips (6 if you count book of shadows). and 4 1st level spells. This balloons to 8 prepared spells at 3rd level. with 3 normal casts 1 limited (magic initiate)
Even if you go full Mystic Arcanum you have fewer spellslots than a Sorcerer and a Wizard as you level. At 20 you have an extra 3rd and 4th spellslot but one less 6th and 7th spellslot and you spent 7(!!) Class Features to get there. But more than that it's progression. At 5th level you have 4/3/2 1st-3rd level spellslots as a Sorcerer or Wizard. A Warlock has 4/2/1 1st-3rd having just gotten your 2nd and 3rd level spells at that level. On top of that you had to use a Class Feature to get there while the Sorcerer gets to play with his Metamagic and the Wizard gets Memorize Spell and can recover spellslots.
I get the Warlock is not a full caster, but if I'm spending all my Class Features to try to be and I still turn out worse what exactly did I gain? The answer is zip. They could buff Mystic Arcanum by letting you take spells from the Divine and Primal spell-lists as well, but wouldn't that kinda make Mystic Arcanum mandatory then?
Edit: Maybe revert Mystic Arcanum to the current 5E function and keep Pact Magic on top of being a half caster. Fewer Pact slots of course.
I haven’t been able to keep up in this thread but here are my thoughts.
Get rid of medium armor and save that for a subclass.
I’m fine with long rest spell slot recovery but think they need to keep pact magic. Maybe add a slot or two as you level. The “daily timing” can be controlled by how many spells you can prepare. These, and MA are your big “boom” spells (they don’t have to be damage spells but could be scaling utility, debuff type spells like Hold Person)
Add more spell options via Invocations to choose from at 1st and 2nd level range that don’t require a spell slot (although could be limited to x times per day for balance). These can be more utility or battlefield control options
Add Mystic Arcanum option at 3rd. And make them once a day or by using a spell slot. You only have up to 5th level slots so you still only get once a day on 6-9 level spells.
And need more “non-spell” invocations to round out builds that are not spell focused like buffs to Chain pact and Blade Pact. Although blade doesn’t seem so bad right now.
I think this is pretty much it. Have invocations that give you casts of a certain spell. Either unlimited or limited. Let that deal with low level utility spells but have only your big spell slots specifically. I wouldn’t be against having things like invocations for shield that let you cast it 3 times a day or something. Maybe invocations for things like detect good and evil. Honestly I think that, plus old mystic arcanum, plus a few more spell slots littered around would solve it. PB spell slots anyone?
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The reason to charge for mystic arcanum is that it means you can choose how caster-y your character is; if you're better at casting spells, you're worse at doing other things. This is what we call 'game balance'. Now, this doesn't mean it's been balanced correctly, but the concept is sensible.
How would this variant be?
That would suck, I don't want to play a goth ranger I want to play a warlock.
Honestly, not a fan of most of these suggestions. Full caster gishes with medium and sometimes heavy armor prof existed already in 5e (martial clerics, hexblade, college of valor and swords), and clerics can still pick up the heavy armor. Taxing invocations is why so many people hate the new Warlock setup, so codifying it as a base feature of tomelock doesn't actually adjust the problem. As for chainlock, honestly they need to stop pushing to make the familiar this relevant unless they want to commit to a much stronger baseline (and honestly I'd prefer they stop trying to shoehorn everything into a single standardized template and go back to saying "pick from the following blocks"); as it stands the familiar is too weak to be reliable in combat and the hour casting time to resummon it means it can easily end up gone until the start of the next day once it's dropped. Really, given the headache and drama I've seen around class pets like this in other places, I really think they just need to leave it at base familiar and stop trying to make it into a combat pet.
Warlocks need to be casting their spells at full caster power level. That's not negotiable for me, both because lorewise the patron's sales pitch seems a lot less tempting to me if they're only as magical as a Ranger and because gameplay-wise that kind of power is what's expected of any Mage class, and any Invocation tax simply undermines a player's ability to truly customize their Warlock.
Then reverse it: reduce base invocations, add extras as features of the other types. Or maybe only to bladelock, depending on how the chainlock is intended to work (I think chainlock doesn't currently work).
I think you're missing my point: the approximate number of invocations and what level you get access to the spell levels as a core class feature are non-negotiable components for me, and probably a lot of other people as well. If they can't come up with a "fix" for the class that doesn't involve taking a weedwhacker to core features, they're better off just sticking with Pact Casting and telling the people whining about Short Rests to get over it.
I agree with your first part, but making Tome a full caster would just make it strictly better than the other two, especially Chain (even with buffs).
MA is fine as it is now, just give one more invocation at 3rd and let MA be available then too to make it perfect. Also Tome should work with all three mental stats imo.
You're missing my point: full caster and full warlock features is a nonoption. Pact Casting is a nonoption with gaining the Arcane spell list, too many spells are dependent on the daily timing so you would need to heavily curate the list (which is why the warlock's spell list in 5e is so terrible).
Even if that's the case- and I do not remained convinced of that- that is why they need to come up with a real alternative instead of just using half-caster as a cop-out and calling it a day. Half caster tanks the power level too much, and the pact boons don't do nearly enough to make up the difference, while the Invocation tax just reduces the player's ability to actually make meaningful design choices because they're shoehorned into dumping at least 4 invocations to get the same access they used to have as a base feature.
Also, can you explain what you mean about the "daily timing"? The Warlock list in 5e is abridged but perfectly serviceable, so I'm not seeing what the issue is on them having more options but the same number of slots is.
New warlock set up, auto gain current way mystic arcanum at 3,7,11,17 without use of invocation, no change to base way boons work. Buffs to chain boon.
At 3 spells slots are , 3 first, 1 second, at 5, 4 first, 2 second, 1 third, at 7, 4 first, 3 second, 1 third, 1 4th, at 9, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, at 11, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, at 13, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th at 15 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and at 17, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 2 4th, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th. and finally at 19, 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 4th, 2 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th.
Edit: to be clear what he means by "daily timing" they aren't doing separate class lists anymore. This is on purpose for future content. They want to add a spell and say it is on one of 3 lists and it is this spell school and if you have access to that, great. This way they can create more classes in the future as well and you don't have to own every book for it to work. The warlocks won't get their own list, at the same time there are some spells they considered to strong to be able to cast multiple times a day with just a short rest, or would have duration issues if you could cast it wait an hour and cast it again. A perfect example is just about any of the invocations that give you a spell that you cast with a slot, like bestow curse, which when cast at 5th level has no concentration and lasts 8 hours. You could almost permanently curse someone at level 9, which is a 9th level bestow curse. But they wanted you to be able to curse people so they made it an invocation and made it "per day" limited to prevent potential shenanigans.
Maybe, if that's leaving me with the same number of invocations. Still a rip off compared to 5e, but more salvageable.
Ya 9, + the boons. That was a suggested help out, because I still acknowledge that current UA is far from perfect. It is salvageable, but it is missing a bit.
How about:
[PB] slots per day, following the standard fullcaster progression, usable for up to level 5 spells, or for Mystic Arcanum spells (one for each level from 6 to 9). You can use half-caster slots for utility and lesser stuff, like invisibility, and when you need that burst of arcane power that you made a pact for, you call out to your patron to blast with your pact slot. It kind of replicates the current iteration of Mystic Arcanum, but doesn't require to spend invocations on these, and gives a clearer idea of what the other half of warlock is.
I could live with that.
Ideas to fix this odd half caster thing they are doing with warlocks.
1. Make Warlocks "2/3" casters just like Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are "1/3" casters. Have the spell progression somewhere in between half and full casters. Have it top out at level 7 spells. Make it so you take 2/3 Warlock level rounded down when you figure out multiclass spellcasting.
2. Make Warlocks half casters that as the level up they get more and more higher level spell slots but their lower levels reduce. For instance when levelling from 10->11 instead of going from 4-1st, 2-2nd, 2-3rd to 4-1st, 2-2nd, 3-3rd make it transition to 2-1st, 3-2nd, 3-3rd. Fewer number of spell slots, just progressively higher levels. In the end they automatically upcast most spells since they have so few low level spells but more higher level spells than other casters. The trick would be to figure out how to incorporate multiclassing.
3. Increase the number of pact slots gained/progression. Make it match close to PB for instance (not equal to it since that would be OP for multiclassing). So 5 slots at 13 and 6 at 17.
4. Leave Arcanum alone. They were big spell grenades you lobbed once a day. Making them part of the Invocation tax reduces their likelihood of being picked. Or if you want to make it more custom. Do both. Give 2 Arcanum for 6 and below and 8 and below. With the option to pick up more via Invocations. Warlocks should be the most flexible class.
5. Allow some recovery of slots in between rests. They definitely seem to want to divorce things from short rests. I've never been at a table that had that problem, even in ticking clock scenarios but since they've done things like "You can use this feature PB times per day" instead of reset on short rests. So do that for Warlock Pact Slots. Eldritch Master was a garbage lvl 20 ability but something as a class feature could work. Remove resets on short rests but add "Patrons Favor(Cantrip) - Casting time 1 minute - Restore all used Pact Magic slots, you can do this twice a day." or "Patrons Favor(Cantrip) - Casting time 1 minute - Restore one unused Pact Magic slot, you can do this 2xPB times per day." Going by the PHB of approximately 2x short rests per day the first option matches it but doesn't rely on the group having to take a short rest, and its a tactical decision when to use it if you have unused slots as their regeneration would be wasted.
6. Maybe make #3 or #5 a Pact of the Tome Higher level ability. Or an improved version of #3 or #5 (Book of Shadows should allow you transcribe other rituals (not just 2 level 1 spells) at level 5 instead of adding AS modifier to cantrips. Book of Ancient Secrets was an amazing Invocation to suck up all the rituals). Make the Pacts feel more different. Tomelocks can be more castery
7. Have your Pact Familiar "carry" a pact slot for you. So you get X slots and your familiar has 1 (spell is cast from its position) so you get X+1 slots per rest. Or make the Familiar's spot a once per day thing. Or you Familiar at level 5 gains the an Action Ability to restore one of your slots. Or casting through your familiar increases the level of the spell cast so a 4th level becomes a 5th once per short rest or PB per day.
8. Increase the number of Eldritch Invocations that give free spell casting. Most of the old Invocations that gave a spell but cost a spell slot to cast were garbage. Some low level at will spells or some low level utility spells once long rest/once per short rest/PB times per day. Like make Unseen Servant once per short rest with out a spell slot. Link it to Pact of the Chain. Link other spells to Pact of the Tome.
9. Restore a Pact Slot on a Crit with the Pact Weapon or a spell attack roll. Or if the creature rolls a 1 on a DC save against your spell.
10. Restore a Pact Slot when you land the killing blow.
11. If you have no pacts slots available restore 1 when rolling initiative (make it a level 11ish ability).
12. Half or 2/3 caster with Eldritch Amplifier When you cast a spell, you can choose to expend a charge of Eldritch Amplifier to cast the spell at higher level than the expended spell slot.
Warlock level 3rd-4th, Amplified spell level 2nd.
Warlock level 5th-6th, Amplified spell level 3rd.
Warlock level 7th-8th, Amplified spell level 4th.
Warlock level 9th+, Amplified spell level 5th.
Instead of PB it could be just one slot that recovers on a short rest. Honestly, I love this.
Ideas for Warlocks in general.
They are definitely looking to make Warlocks the most flexible magic class. Choices of spellcasting ability, armor, choice of a gish weapon, flexible cantrips and rituals, a familiar (Chainlock needs work). They are the only class as far as I can see with customization outside of the subclass and spell choice. This is done at first level with the Pacts. And later on with Invocations. I don't mind that Warlocks are going to be a Multiclass favorite. Multiclassing is a great part of the game but give a reason to stay in the class too. A monk warlock will be cool with a Wisdom powered Spear. An Arcane Trickster with extra Cantrips and rituals is great. A support Bard with a Celestial Familiar giving advantage on every other round is great.
Pacts.Add a level 11 upgrade as well.
Blade - I'm good, but either add the hexblade subclass or invocations later on that allow you to pick up a shield or 2 handed weapons (GWM is gone so that exploit isn't there). Or an invocation that allows the Warlock to use the weapon mastery associated with the summoned weapon. Or make this the level 11 upgrade.
Tome - Either add it as the level 5 upgrade or an invocation that you can scribe new Rituals into the book just like BoAS did. Free Agonizing Blast for all cantrips is ok but nothing to write home about. Make the ritual scribing the level 11 ability. Or give the ability to add a level 4 spell that isn't a ritual as a ritual (with casting greater than 10 minute)
Chain - Buff this. First of all fix the wording since Pact Familiar can only Dodge/move or attack with the Warlock's reaction in combat. But turning invisible isn't an attack or dodge and isn't one of those. Also as is, they can only attack every other turn without an AoO. Let the familiar be part of your turn so that you can have it do things first and you can gain benefits of the Favor of the Chain Master conditions.
Invocations - Need more modifications to Hex. It and EB are our class defining features. Maddening Hex and Relentless Hex. Rework the Hexblade's Curse as an invocation for spells, usable some number of times per day. Make it concentration free like Hunter's Mark. Have it give disadvantage on saving throws with the chosen ability not just ability checks. Have it interact with the familiar - advantage on attacks, more damage, bypass immunities of the Favor of the Chain Master conditions.
More invocations that give at will utility spells or PB times per day free spells (why is Mage armor in there with medium armor proficiency), give us an Unseen Servant free casts, give us low level fly at will (after level 11ish). Gate them with Tome or Chain if you need to or gate them with level.
When Book of Ancient Secrets was created Warlocks couldn't ritual cast.
Tome Warlock with Book of Ancient Secrets was the only Warlock that could.
Now any caster with a ritual spell can ritual cast it, Warlock included. If you want a ritual spell, choose it as one of your known spells.
Subclass features now appear at levels 6, 10, and 14, and only 6, 10, and 14. You're not getting another subclass feature.
The double-bladed scimitar is a two-handed weapon, but it is not heavy, making it eligible for Pact of the Blade.
Since Warlocks have low level slots now, a lot of invocations are redundant. Unless you desperately need on demand disguise self or silent image you can just choose them as known spells and cast them using slots. If you do need them, take Mask of Many Faces and/or Misty Visions.
I've suggested to Jeremy Crawford that Agonizing Blast should simply become a level 2 Class feature for Warlocks, since it's pretty much compulsory for Warlocks anyway. I also suggested that Hex should become a cantrip, Warlock exclusive, bonus action, concentration, and scale on Warlock levels like Eldritch Blast. 1d6 to 4d6 extra damage on an attack, once per turn. Perhaps 1d4 to 4d4 if people think the d6s are too strong. Make sure it's excluded from the Tomelock's bonus damage. Even when completely out of spell slots Warlock would still be able to debuff and blast people.
I think there are 9 invocations in order to fit the 1 to 9 Mystic Arcanum that Warlocks could take. If so there won't be any more, but we might be able to persuade the writers to include more class features, like making Agonizing Blast a class feature.
I haven’t been able to keep up in this thread but here are my thoughts.
Get rid of medium armor and save that for a subclass.
I’m fine with long rest spell slot recovery but think they need to keep pact magic. Maybe add a slot or two as you level. The “daily timing” can be controlled by how many spells you can prepare. These, and MA are your big “boom” spells (they don’t have to be damage spells but could be scaling utility, debuff type spells like Hold Person)
Add more spell options via Invocations to choose from at 1st and 2nd level range that don’t require a spell slot (although could be limited to x times per day for balance). These can be more utility or battlefield control options
Add Mystic Arcanum option at 3rd. And make them once a day or by using a spell slot. You only have up to 5th level slots so you still only get once a day on 6-9 level spells.
And need more “non-spell” invocations to round out builds that are not spell focused like buffs to Chain pact and Blade Pact. Although blade doesn’t seem so bad right now.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Even if you go full Mystic Arcanum you have fewer spellslots than a Sorcerer and a Wizard as you level. At 20 you have an extra 3rd and 4th spellslot but one less 6th and 7th spellslot and you spent 7(!!) Class Features to get there. But more than that it's progression. At 5th level you have 4/3/2 1st-3rd level spellslots as a Sorcerer or Wizard. A Warlock has 4/2/1 1st-3rd having just gotten your 2nd and 3rd level spells at that level. On top of that you had to use a Class Feature to get there while the Sorcerer gets to play with his Metamagic and the Wizard gets Memorize Spell and can recover spellslots.
I get the Warlock is not a full caster, but if I'm spending all my Class Features to try to be and I still turn out worse what exactly did I gain? The answer is zip. They could buff Mystic Arcanum by letting you take spells from the Divine and Primal spell-lists as well, but wouldn't that kinda make Mystic Arcanum mandatory then?
Edit: Maybe revert Mystic Arcanum to the current 5E function and keep Pact Magic on top of being a half caster. Fewer Pact slots of course.
I think this is pretty much it. Have invocations that give you casts of a certain spell. Either unlimited or limited. Let that deal with low level utility spells but have only your big spell slots specifically. I wouldn’t be against having things like invocations for shield that let you cast it 3 times a day or something. Maybe invocations for things like detect good and evil. Honestly I think that, plus old mystic arcanum, plus a few more spell slots littered around would solve it. PB spell slots anyone?