Excuse me: *how*? They can't change anything about it, and the class budget to account for increased spellcasting has to come from SOMEWHERE. You don't get a character with four level 9 spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and you don't get a character with twelve level 5 slots that recharge on a short rest. The devs will NEVER allow that.
Literally no one is asking for nor suggesting this. This is pure hyperbole that you constantly use to belittle any one else’s opinions and suggestions. Poor form.
No one is asking you either, and frankly, you’re being the meanest person on this thread right now. Also, Raiyous is not telling people what to do, it’s called constructive criticism.
Pretty sure those are all directed at Yurei.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The problem with creating a new half caster table like this is that it doesn't work with mulitclassing like the others. Spell caster level = (Add up all the levels of full caster) +1/2*(add up all the levels of half caster)(round down) + 1/3*(add up all your levels of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster)(round down). Pact magic worked multiclass because it was a separate system based only on warlock level. Your system would require a brand new way to add it together. Now if they were dead set on getting rid of pact magic and wanted to avoid the disastrous half caster system, they could make a 2/3 caster table. Have it top out at level 7 spells. Fill in casting holes with MA.
A 2/3 caster table (similar to the bard in 3rd edition), coupled with the higher powered cantrip of eldritch blast, and some weird features based on the patron/subclass (in addition to the pact boon) would go a long ways towards fixing the issues making a warlock a half caster has brought up. If they can figure out how to handle a spell progression with a half caster and a full caster (or even a 1/3 caster like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight), then they can handle a 2/3 caster like a proposed Warlock.
I'd also suggest some other warlock specific cantrips along the power level of eldritch blast, but with different effects so that not everyone warlock is using the same basic attack. Maybe a melee cantrip along the lines of Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade for Blade Pact warlocks, or some kind of combo of bless/aid that only affects familiars for Pact of the Chain - presuming that's the route the player wants to take. Limit the higher power level by only allowing a character to have ONE of these special Warlock cantrips. So a Blade warlock with an enhanced Booming Blade-style cantrip will never be able to light off an Eldritch Blast, they'll be using Ray of Frost or something similar instead if a ranged attack is needed.
Sometimes a middle ground is a good idea, even though the resistance to the notion is likely to be intense. Much like many 3.5 classes had class features of +1 to a weak save, rising to +3, and absolutely refusing to just make a medium save progression between the good/poor one.
The problem with creating a new half caster table like this is that it doesn't work with mulitclassing like the others. Spell caster level = (Add up all the levels of full caster) +1/2*(add up all the levels of half caster)(round down) + 1/3*(add up all your levels of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster)(round down). Pact magic worked multiclass because it was a separate system based only on warlock level. Your system would require a brand new way to add it together. Now if they were dead set on getting rid of pact magic and wanted to avoid the disastrous half caster system, they could make a 2/3 caster table. Have it top out at level 7 spells. Fill in casting holes with MA.
A 2/3 caster table (similar to the bard in 3rd edition), coupled with the higher powered cantrip of eldritch blast, and some weird features based on the patron/subclass (in addition to the pact boon) would go a long ways towards fixing the issues making a warlock a half caster has brought up. If they can figure out how to handle a spell progression with a half caster and a full caster (or even a 1/3 caster like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight), then they can handle a 2/3 caster like a proposed Warlock.
I'd also suggest some other warlock specific cantrips along the power level of eldritch blast, but with different effects so that not everyone warlock is using the same basic attack. Maybe a melee cantrip along the lines of Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade for Blade Pact warlocks, or some kind of combo of bless/aid that only affects familiars for Pact of the Chain - presuming that's the route the player wants to take. Limit the higher power level by only allowing a character to have ONE of these special Warlock cantrips. So a Blade warlock with an enhanced Booming Blade-style cantrip will never be able to light off an Eldritch Blast, they'll be using Ray of Frost or something similar instead if a ranged attack is needed.
Sometimes a middle ground is a good idea, even though the resistance to the notion is likely to be intense. Much like many 3.5 classes had class features of +1 to a weak save, rising to +3, and absolutely refusing to just make a medium save progression between the good/poor one.
Don't get me wrong, I like the uniqueness of Pact Magic. Just wanted a few more slots (up to 6) and if they wanted to not rely on short rests, make the Eldritch Master ability a core ability (like up to 2 times per day). But they seem hell bent on getting rid of it. His half caster doesn't seem to do it, since there really isn't an second "half." A slightly worse ranger/paladin or worse caster. Or whatever role the chainlock is supposed to be now.
Excuse me: *how*? They can't change anything about it, and the class budget to account for increased spellcasting has to come from SOMEWHERE. You don't get a character with four level 9 spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and you don't get a character with twelve level 5 slots that recharge on a short rest. The devs will NEVER allow that.
Literally no one is asking for nor suggesting this. This is pure hyperbole that you constantly use to belittle any one else’s opinions and suggestions. Poor form.
No one is asking you either, and frankly, you’re being the meanest person on this thread right now. Also, Raiyous is not telling people what to do, it’s called constructive criticism.
The problem with creating a new half caster table like this is that it doesn't work with mulitclassing like the others. Spell caster level = (Add up all the levels of full caster) +1/2*(add up all the levels of half caster)(round down) + 1/3*(add up all your levels of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster)(round down). Pact magic worked multiclass because it was a separate system based only on warlock level. Your system would require a brand new way to add it together. Now if they were dead set on getting rid of pact magic and wanted to avoid the disastrous half caster system, they could make a 2/3 caster table. Have it top out at level 7 spells. Fill in casting holes with MA.
A 2/3 caster table (similar to the bard in 3rd edition), coupled with the higher powered cantrip of eldritch blast, and some weird features based on the patron/subclass (in addition to the pact boon) would go a long ways towards fixing the issues making a warlock a half caster has brought up. If they can figure out how to handle a spell progression with a half caster and a full caster (or even a 1/3 caster like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight), then they can handle a 2/3 caster like a proposed Warlock.
I'd also suggest some other warlock specific cantrips along the power level of eldritch blast, but with different effects so that not everyone warlock is using the same basic attack. Maybe a melee cantrip along the lines of Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade for Blade Pact warlocks, or some kind of combo of bless/aid that only affects familiars for Pact of the Chain - presuming that's the route the player wants to take. Limit the higher power level by only allowing a character to have ONE of these special Warlock cantrips. So a Blade warlock with an enhanced Booming Blade-style cantrip will never be able to light off an Eldritch Blast, they'll be using Ray of Frost or something similar instead if a ranged attack is needed.
Sometimes a middle ground is a good idea, even though the resistance to the notion is likely to be intense. Much like many 3.5 classes had class features of +1 to a weak save, rising to +3, and absolutely refusing to just make a medium save progression between the good/poor one.
Don't get me wrong, I like the uniqueness of Pact Magic. Just wanted a few more slots (up to 6) and if they wanted to not rely on short rests, make the Eldritch Master ability a core ability (like up to 2 times per day). But they seem hell bent on getting rid of it. His half caster doesn't seem to do it, since there really isn't an second "half." A slightly worse ranger/paladin or worse caster. Or whatever role the chainlock is supposed to be now.
I prefer pact magic myself, but as you said, they seem to want to be rid of a lot of the short rest mechanics. Although the "once per encounter" powers were one of the few things I liked from 4th Edition, and it seemed like the Warlock is built on a similar mechanic.
Of course, now that I type that down, maybe that's what could be done. The Warlock recharges so many spells or abilities per encounter, no matter what level of rest they have.
I'd also suggest some other warlock specific cantrips along the power level of eldritch blast, but with different effects so that not everyone warlock is using the same basic attack. Maybe a melee cantrip along the lines of Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade for Blade Pact warlocks, or some kind of combo of bless/aid that only affects familiars for Pact of the Chain - presuming that's the route the player wants to take. Limit the higher power level by only allowing a character to have ONE of these special Warlock cantrips. So a Blade warlock with an enhanced Booming Blade-style cantrip will never be able to light off an Eldritch Blast, they'll be using Ray of Frost or something similar instead if a ranged attack is needed.
I've suggested that maybe when a warlock picks up attack cantrips eldritch blast modifies them into a eldritch blast variant. Create some ground rules like the cantrip has to be single target, must use an attack roll and can not require a weapon or something. But instead of those cantrips getting extra dice, they get extra attacks/bolts. So you take firebolt at level 5 instead of doing 2d10 it created two 1d10 bolts, allows all eldritch blast invocations to work with it, its otherwise fire bolt it does fire damage, can target people and objects. That way all they need to do is add a one paragraph description to eldritch blast, or make it a level 5 invocation or something. No need to create 4-5 unique warlock cantrips.
I prefer pact magic myself, but as you said, they seem to want to be rid of a lot of the short rest mechanics. Although the "once per encounter" powers were one of the few things I liked from 4th Edition, and it seemed like the Warlock is built on a similar mechanic.
Of course, now that I type that down, maybe that's what could be done. The Warlock recharges so many spells or abilities per encounter, no matter what level of rest they have.
D&D seems to prefer actual time vs per encounter. But they effectively could do that if they dropped the former level 20 warlock ability to like level 5, and get a second use at like level 13. a minute ritual to get your mojo back. I'd prefer they reduce the flavor text in it so what the ritual was doing was more warlock specific, like maybe someone with pact of the chain did a ritual with their familiar as a conduit for their patron, asking for/stealing power from them, the tome maybe they studied their tome, finding deeper mysteries in the universe feeling revitalized after the event, blade does some kind of martial training, all of them could just meditate, sip tea or whatever fit their character.
I prefer pact magic myself, but as you said, they seem to want to be rid of a lot of the short rest mechanics. Although the "once per encounter" powers were one of the few things I liked from 4th Edition, and it seemed like the Warlock is built on a similar mechanic.
Of course, now that I type that down, maybe that's what could be done. The Warlock recharges so many spells or abilities per encounter, no matter what level of rest they have.
D&D seems to prefer actual time vs per encounter. But they effectively could do that if they dropped the former level 20 warlock ability to like level 5, and get a second use at like level 13. a minute ritual to get your mojo back. I'd prefer they reduce the flavor text in it so what the ritual was doing was more warlock specific, like maybe someone with pact of the chain did a ritual with their familiar as a conduit for their patron, asking for/stealing power from them, the tome maybe they studied their tome, finding deeper mysteries in the universe feeling revitalized after the event, blade does some kind of martial training, all of them could just meditate, sip tea or whatever fit their character.
I like this too. Call it something like Pact Mastery or Patrons Favor. It would be tactical decision. If you had 2 of 4 slots still available but think a bigger fight is coming up you'd have to decide to burn it or for 4 slots or decide to risk the fight for 2 in case something bigger was after. I also think this a prime area to have the familiar provide something the other two pacts don't (or as a future idea for Talisman Pact). Maybe the familiar/talisman has a once a day ability to restore a single pact slot.
So the more and more suggestions I see to help the class while keeping it a long rest class the more they don't seem to work for me. Most of them involve adding more total spells and spell slots to higher levels. The issue with this is it completely changes the Warlock playstyle and what, I believe, Wizards wants Warlock to do. From what I can tell the Warlock game plan should be to drop a powerful spell in combat and then eldritch blast. Out of combat they should have some tricks and, with the old warlock, long lasting high level social trick spells were their bread and butter out of combat.
Honestly, I don't know WHAT to do with Warlock.
One Idea I had was Level 3 pact magic. You gain a second level spell slot that recovers on a short rest. This spell slot increases as you level up, 3rd at 5, 4th at 7, 5th at 9. It brings back some of the roots on this half caster. The issue is it stops leveling up after 9. Is that an issue when we have mystic arcanums? Do mystic arcanums stop being part of invocations and become something you gain at 11, 13, 15, 17? Or do we keep them? Do we put something else in the invocations for additional lower level once per long rest spells? With all those spells does it change the dynamic of warlock casting? At a higher level does Pact magic upgrade to 1 6th level slot? IS THAT TOO crazy?
Adding a new 2/3 caster table isn't that hard, and the way it works with multiclassing is "add 2/3 of your level", though that's not the actual thing that was proposed.
Another option would be to introduce an invocation that boosts your caster level somewhat (say, +1 per invocation, with a limit on how often you can take it).
Personally, I'm not super opposed to the warlock just being a half caster, but I think it's kinda weak in that role.
Bladelock is significantly inferior at fighting -- d8s instead of the d10s other half-caster setups have, doesn't get a fighting style and can't learn them because not warrior group, can't use two weapons because you only get one pact weapon, can't use great weapons because they're heavy, can't use a shield without burning a feat or invocation to do so, bad synergy with all the fighting feats because they all buff strength or dex, and the new hex is not as good as the new hunter's mark. Once or twice per day you can pretend to be a full caster with a mystic arcanum, but that doesn't make up for all the weaknesses.
Tomelock probably keeps up in tier 1 because 1d10+Cha force damage is better than anything the ranger has, but a wand of the war mage requires attunement and only boosts attack rolls whereas a magic longbow does not require attunement and boosts both attack and damage (plus see comments on hex vs hunter's mark), so by tier 2 the ranger pulls ahead.
Chainlock is reliant on a trick that scales very poorly. It might be okay in tier 1, when you don't have a lot of other uses for reactions, it might actually survive being hit by an attack, and 3-4 points of damage is relevant, but at 5th level, 5 damage and 10 hit points is just kinda sad.
You could cut short rests but let Warlock spell slots recover automatically at certain intervals that just so happen to reflect how short rests were supposed to work. One cute way to do it would be to have them refresh at times dictated by the type of pact. So archfey-pact , you roll a d12 at midnight and a d12 at noon, and those are the number of hours until your slots recharge because oh it's so whimsical. Fiend-pact, you get your slots back at 6:66 AM and PM, and by the way we have to reinvent how clocks work. I could go on, but how about I quit while I'm ahead lol.
Or do it like the variant Channel Divinity from Tasha's. The character can recharge really quickly, but they can only do it a few times per long rest. Now it's essentially just encounter-based, but you can require some kind of rite in order to inject more theme and mask the fact that you're just doing encounter powers. Say they have to slice open their palm, or they have to like, defile something in their patron's name or whatever, and then they get their slots back. Yay.
In the core books, Warlock's the only class who can directly boost their spell save DC with a less-than-legendary magic item. The Rod of the Pact Keeper has no equivalent for other classes in the DMG.
They added one for every other caster class, I think. All-Purpose Tool for Artificer, Amulet of the Devout for Cleric and Paladin, Arcane Grimoire for Wizard, Bloodwell Vial for Sorcerer, Moon Sickle for Druid and Ranger, Reveler's Concertina and Rhythm-Maker's Drum for Bard. So Warlock kind of lost something, in a roundabout way.
You could cut short rests but let Warlock spell slots recover automatically at certain intervals that just so happen to reflect how short rests were supposed to work. One cute way to do it would be to have them refresh at times dictated by the type of pact. So archfey-pact , you roll a d12 at midnight and a d12 at noon, and those are the number of hours until your slots recharge because oh it's so whimsical. Fiend-pact, you get your slots back at 6:66 AM and PM, and by the way we have to reinvent how clocks work. I could go on, but how about I quit while I'm ahead lol.
Or do it like the variant Channel Divinity from Tasha's. The character can recharge really quickly, but they can only do it a few times per long rest. Now it's essentially just encounter-based, but you can require some kind of rite in order to inject more theme and mask the fact that you're just doing encounter powers. Say they have to slice open their palm, or they have to like, defile something in their patron's name or whatever, and then they get their slots back. Yay.
You wouldn't have to reinvent the clock actually. Because the actual hour of the beast is 6 minutes and 6 seconds after 6 o'clock.
You could cut short rests but let Warlock spell slots recover automatically at certain intervals that just so happen to reflect how short rests were supposed to work. One cute way to do it would be to have them refresh at times dictated by the type of pact. So archfey-pact , you roll a d12 at midnight and a d12 at noon, and those are the number of hours until your slots recharge because oh it's so whimsical. Fiend-pact, you get your slots back at 6:66 AM and PM, and by the way we have to reinvent how clocks work. I could go on, but how about I quit while I'm ahead lol.
Or do it like the variant Channel Divinity from Tasha's. The character can recharge really quickly, but they can only do it a few times per long rest. Now it's essentially just encounter-based, but you can require some kind of rite in order to inject more theme and mask the fact that you're just doing encounter powers. Say they have to slice open their palm, or they have to like, defile something in their patron's name or whatever, and then they get their slots back. Yay.
You wouldn't have to reinvent the clock actually. Because the actual hour of the beast is 6 minutes and 6 seconds after 6 o'clock.
Seems like a pretty short hour.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Adding a new 2/3 caster table isn't that hard, and the way it works with multiclassing is "add 2/3 of your level", though that's not the actual thing that was proposed.
Another option would be to introduce an invocation that boosts your caster level somewhat (say, +1 per invocation, with a limit on how often you can take it).
Personally, I'm not super opposed to the warlock just being a half caster, but I think it's kinda weak in that role.
Bladelock is significantly inferior at fighting -- d8s instead of the d10s other half-caster setups have, doesn't get a fighting style and can't learn them because not warrior group, can't use two weapons because you only get one pact weapon, can't use great weapons because they're heavy, can't use a shield without burning a feat or invocation to do so, bad synergy with all the fighting feats because they all buff strength or dex, and the new hex is not as good as the new hunter's mark. Once or twice per day you can pretend to be a full caster with a mystic arcanum, but that doesn't make up for all the weaknesses.
Tomelock probably keeps up in tier 1 because 1d10+Cha force damage is better than anything the ranger has, but a wand of the war mage requires attunement and only boosts attack rolls whereas a magic longbow does not require attunement and boosts both attack and damage (plus see comments on hex vs hunter's mark), so by tier 2 the ranger pulls ahead.
Chainlock is reliant on a trick that scales very poorly. It might be okay in tier 1, when you don't have a lot of other uses for reactions, it might actually survive being hit by an attack, and 3-4 points of damage is relevant, but at 5th level, 5 damage and 10 hit points is just kinda sad.
Personally I have to wonder if they will have the Hexblade pact in the PHB - if that pact grants shield proficiency and/or allows a heavier weapon, maybe a weapon mastery (not everything has to be added at level 3 either), or maybe even an invocation that requires Pact of the Blade, then things can equal out. Currently, a single class Hexblade Warlock who doesn't take Pact of the Blade will fall behind one who does in the combat role, why should a Pact of the Blade Warlock who chooses not to double down with Hexblade be any different? Outside of not wanting to require certain pairings no matter what, that is.
Which might be a reason for it to be an Invocation - grants shield proficiency and weapon mastery, requires Pact of the Blade. Or if that seems to powerful, have one grant the weapon mastery, and another shield mastery.
I'm not sure time-tracking is a good idea. In most campaigns I've been in, time isn't really tracked outside of rests in anything more precise than "morning", "afternoon", "evening", and "night" most times. It just doesn't seem like a detail a DM will typically be thinking of as the session runs, and so when someone asks about it the DM is then left flat-footed trying to come up with an answer.
feature called "one-sided contract" or such. if creature of CR1/2 or better falls to 0hp within 5ft of the warlock (or their familiar?), the warlock may spend a reaction to use their free hand to grapple the creature's escaping soul. one of the warlock's spent pact slots (for 5E version or mystical arcanum if we're talking UA half-caster) is renewed for use next turn. also, the warlock gains the effects of Armor of Agathys as if cast at [(warlock level /2) rounded up +1] spell level. you can succeed at this only three times per long rest and no more often than once every 10 minutes.
i want to say "the warlock makes a simple promise to the deceased (to light a candle for them later, to say their name into the wind, to throw a piece of them into the sea, burn the body, etc... non binding) and in return the caster is briefly empowered." ...but that's just fluff to explain the feature name. also, i couldn't decide if it should require an Arcane skill check or someting like a melee strike with proficiency +INT +CHA. but, no it would be really frustrating to roll poorly a few times after risking one's bacon in the front lines of battle.
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tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Adding a new 2/3 caster table isn't that hard, and the way it works with multiclassing is "add 2/3 of your level", though that's not the actual thing that was proposed.
Another option would be to introduce an invocation that boosts your caster level somewhat (say, +1 per invocation, with a limit on how often you can take it).
Personally, I'm not super opposed to the warlock just being a half caster, but I think it's kinda weak in that role.
Bladelock is significantly inferior at fighting -- d8s instead of the d10s other half-caster setups have, doesn't get a fighting style and can't learn them because not warrior group, can't use two weapons because you only get one pact weapon, can't use great weapons because they're heavy, can't use a shield without burning a feat or invocation to do so, bad synergy with all the fighting feats because they all buff strength or dex, and the new hex is not as good as the new hunter's mark. Once or twice per day you can pretend to be a full caster with a mystic arcanum, but that doesn't make up for all the weaknesses.
Tomelock probably keeps up in tier 1 because 1d10+Cha force damage is better than anything the ranger has, but a wand of the war mage requires attunement and only boosts attack rolls whereas a magic longbow does not require attunement and boosts both attack and damage (plus see comments on hex vs hunter's mark), so by tier 2 the ranger pulls ahead.
Chainlock is reliant on a trick that scales very poorly. It might be okay in tier 1, when you don't have a lot of other uses for reactions, it might actually survive being hit by an attack, and 3-4 points of damage is relevant, but at 5th level, 5 damage and 10 hit points is just kinda sad.
Level 9, Paladin vs Bladelock.
Paladin takes 17 strength to start, then polearm master at 4, then maxes strength at 8.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
Total damage range: Paladin, 18 to 39
Warlock, 16 to 44
Both can use Smite once per turn for 2d8 to 4d8 extra damage once per turn.
Sure, it's not the Hexblade stacking PAM, GWM, IPW, TB, and Spirit Shroud for a potential 147 damage a round, but then Paladins aren't dumping three spell slots a round into Divine Smite either.
Ranger with Hunter's Mark and two weapons with TWF, 3(d6 + 5 + d6) for 6d6 + 15, for a 21 to 51 range. Without Hunter's Mark it's 3d6 +15 for an 18 to 33 range, or in the same ballpark as the Warlock and Paladin.
At level 11 the Paladin gets Radiant Strikes to get an additional 3 to 24 damage a turn, and that's where they pull ahead. The Warlock can expend a level 3 spell slot for a 2d6 Hex, which adds 2 to 12 damage.
But then at level 11 the eldritch blasting Warlock is getting 3(d10+5) for 18 to 45 damage at 120 feet without investing anything more than the invocation we took at level 2.
Ranger: Melee with Hunter's Mark: 3(d6 + d6 + 5) = 21 to 51
Frankly, I'm becoming convinced that every melee option sucks, and there's not a significant difference between them. The Ranger could take Sharpshooter, or the Paladin Great Weapon Master, to add proficiency bonus damage once per turn, but is it worth taking a feat for an additional 2 to 6 damage? I don't think so.
Adding a new 2/3 caster table isn't that hard, and the way it works with multiclassing is "add 2/3 of your level", though that's not the actual thing that was proposed.
Another option would be to introduce an invocation that boosts your caster level somewhat (say, +1 per invocation, with a limit on how often you can take it).
Personally, I'm not super opposed to the warlock just being a half caster, but I think it's kinda weak in that role.
Bladelock is significantly inferior at fighting -- d8s instead of the d10s other half-caster setups have, doesn't get a fighting style and can't learn them because not warrior group, can't use two weapons because you only get one pact weapon, can't use great weapons because they're heavy, can't use a shield without burning a feat or invocation to do so, bad synergy with all the fighting feats because they all buff strength or dex, and the new hex is not as good as the new hunter's mark. Once or twice per day you can pretend to be a full caster with a mystic arcanum, but that doesn't make up for all the weaknesses.
Tomelock probably keeps up in tier 1 because 1d10+Cha force damage is better than anything the ranger has, but a wand of the war mage requires attunement and only boosts attack rolls whereas a magic longbow does not require attunement and boosts both attack and damage (plus see comments on hex vs hunter's mark), so by tier 2 the ranger pulls ahead.
Chainlock is reliant on a trick that scales very poorly. It might be okay in tier 1, when you don't have a lot of other uses for reactions, it might actually survive being hit by an attack, and 3-4 points of damage is relevant, but at 5th level, 5 damage and 10 hit points is just kinda sad.
Level 9, Paladin vs Bladelock.
Paladin takes 17 strength to start, then polearm master at 4, then maxes strength at 8.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
Total damage range: Paladin, 18 to 39
Warlock, 16 to 44
Both can use Smite once per turn for 2d8 to 4d8 extra damage once per turn.
Sure, it's not the Hexblade stacking PAM, GWM, IPW, TB, and Spirit Shroud for a potential 147 damage a round, but then Paladins aren't dumping three spell slots a round into Divine Smite either.
Ranger with Hunter's Mark and two weapons with TWF, 3(d6 + 5 + d6) for 6d6 + 15, for a 21 to 51 range. Without Hunter's Mark it's 3d6 +15 for an 18 to 33 range, or in the same ballpark as the Warlock and Paladin.
At level 11 the Paladin gets Radiant Strikes to get an additional 3 to 24 damage a turn, and that's where they pull ahead. The Warlock can expend a level 3 spell slot for a 2d6 Hex, which adds 2 to 12 damage.
But then at level 11 the eldritch blasting Warlock is getting 3(d10+5) for 18 to 45 damage at 120 feet without investing anything more than the invocation we took at level 2.
Frankly, I'm becoming convinced that every melee option sucks, and there's not a significant difference between them. The Ranger could take Sharpshooter, or the Paladin Great Weapon Master, to add proficiency bonus damage once per turn, but is it worth taking a feat for an additional 2 to 6 damage? I don't think so.
How does this stack up for lock if improved pact weapon and eldritch smite are not allowed given being in Tasha's. How about how does it stack up at 5 to 8 before lifedrinker can kick in?
Pretty sure those are all directed at Yurei.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Yes, sorry. Long time lurker, first time poster. Trying to get a handle on replying to posts and completely mucking it up.
Those lines were actual quotes used by Yurei1453 and I was trying, and failing miserably, to reply to that poster, not Raiyous.
my apologies for the confusion. I will try to figure this out. 🤷♂️
A 2/3 caster table (similar to the bard in 3rd edition), coupled with the higher powered cantrip of eldritch blast, and some weird features based on the patron/subclass (in addition to the pact boon) would go a long ways towards fixing the issues making a warlock a half caster has brought up. If they can figure out how to handle a spell progression with a half caster and a full caster (or even a 1/3 caster like Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight), then they can handle a 2/3 caster like a proposed Warlock.
I'd also suggest some other warlock specific cantrips along the power level of eldritch blast, but with different effects so that not everyone warlock is using the same basic attack. Maybe a melee cantrip along the lines of Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade for Blade Pact warlocks, or some kind of combo of bless/aid that only affects familiars for Pact of the Chain - presuming that's the route the player wants to take. Limit the higher power level by only allowing a character to have ONE of these special Warlock cantrips. So a Blade warlock with an enhanced Booming Blade-style cantrip will never be able to light off an Eldritch Blast, they'll be using Ray of Frost or something similar instead if a ranged attack is needed.
Sometimes a middle ground is a good idea, even though the resistance to the notion is likely to be intense. Much like many 3.5 classes had class features of +1 to a weak save, rising to +3, and absolutely refusing to just make a medium save progression between the good/poor one.
Don't get me wrong, I like the uniqueness of Pact Magic. Just wanted a few more slots (up to 6) and if they wanted to not rely on short rests, make the Eldritch Master ability a core ability (like up to 2 times per day). But they seem hell bent on getting rid of it. His half caster doesn't seem to do it, since there really isn't an second "half." A slightly worse ranger/paladin or worse caster. Or whatever role the chainlock is supposed to be now.
I feel lost...what did I do?
I prefer pact magic myself, but as you said, they seem to want to be rid of a lot of the short rest mechanics. Although the "once per encounter" powers were one of the few things I liked from 4th Edition, and it seemed like the Warlock is built on a similar mechanic.
Of course, now that I type that down, maybe that's what could be done. The Warlock recharges so many spells or abilities per encounter, no matter what level of rest they have.
I've suggested that maybe when a warlock picks up attack cantrips eldritch blast modifies them into a eldritch blast variant. Create some ground rules like the cantrip has to be single target, must use an attack roll and can not require a weapon or something. But instead of those cantrips getting extra dice, they get extra attacks/bolts. So you take firebolt at level 5 instead of doing 2d10 it created two 1d10 bolts, allows all eldritch blast invocations to work with it, its otherwise fire bolt it does fire damage, can target people and objects. That way all they need to do is add a one paragraph description to eldritch blast, or make it a level 5 invocation or something. No need to create 4-5 unique warlock cantrips.
D&D seems to prefer actual time vs per encounter. But they effectively could do that if they dropped the former level 20 warlock ability to like level 5, and get a second use at like level 13. a minute ritual to get your mojo back. I'd prefer they reduce the flavor text in it so what the ritual was doing was more warlock specific, like maybe someone with pact of the chain did a ritual with their familiar as a conduit for their patron, asking for/stealing power from them, the tome maybe they studied their tome, finding deeper mysteries in the universe feeling revitalized after the event, blade does some kind of martial training, all of them could just meditate, sip tea or whatever fit their character.
I like this too. Call it something like Pact Mastery or Patrons Favor. It would be tactical decision. If you had 2 of 4 slots still available but think a bigger fight is coming up you'd have to decide to burn it or for 4 slots or decide to risk the fight for 2 in case something bigger was after. I also think this a prime area to have the familiar provide something the other two pacts don't (or as a future idea for Talisman Pact). Maybe the familiar/talisman has a once a day ability to restore a single pact slot.
So the more and more suggestions I see to help the class while keeping it a long rest class the more they don't seem to work for me. Most of them involve adding more total spells and spell slots to higher levels. The issue with this is it completely changes the Warlock playstyle and what, I believe, Wizards wants Warlock to do. From what I can tell the Warlock game plan should be to drop a powerful spell in combat and then eldritch blast. Out of combat they should have some tricks and, with the old warlock, long lasting high level social trick spells were their bread and butter out of combat.
Honestly, I don't know WHAT to do with Warlock.
One Idea I had was Level 3 pact magic. You gain a second level spell slot that recovers on a short rest. This spell slot increases as you level up, 3rd at 5, 4th at 7, 5th at 9. It brings back some of the roots on this half caster. The issue is it stops leveling up after 9. Is that an issue when we have mystic arcanums? Do mystic arcanums stop being part of invocations and become something you gain at 11, 13, 15, 17? Or do we keep them? Do we put something else in the invocations for additional lower level once per long rest spells? With all those spells does it change the dynamic of warlock casting? At a higher level does Pact magic upgrade to 1 6th level slot? IS THAT TOO crazy?
Adding a new 2/3 caster table isn't that hard, and the way it works with multiclassing is "add 2/3 of your level", though that's not the actual thing that was proposed.
Another option would be to introduce an invocation that boosts your caster level somewhat (say, +1 per invocation, with a limit on how often you can take it).
Personally, I'm not super opposed to the warlock just being a half caster, but I think it's kinda weak in that role.
Bladelock is significantly inferior at fighting -- d8s instead of the d10s other half-caster setups have, doesn't get a fighting style and can't learn them because not warrior group, can't use two weapons because you only get one pact weapon, can't use great weapons because they're heavy, can't use a shield without burning a feat or invocation to do so, bad synergy with all the fighting feats because they all buff strength or dex, and the new hex is not as good as the new hunter's mark. Once or twice per day you can pretend to be a full caster with a mystic arcanum, but that doesn't make up for all the weaknesses.
Tomelock probably keeps up in tier 1 because 1d10+Cha force damage is better than anything the ranger has, but a wand of the war mage requires attunement and only boosts attack rolls whereas a magic longbow does not require attunement and boosts both attack and damage (plus see comments on hex vs hunter's mark), so by tier 2 the ranger pulls ahead.
Chainlock is reliant on a trick that scales very poorly. It might be okay in tier 1, when you don't have a lot of other uses for reactions, it might actually survive being hit by an attack, and 3-4 points of damage is relevant, but at 5th level, 5 damage and 10 hit points is just kinda sad.
You could cut short rests but let Warlock spell slots recover automatically at certain intervals that just so happen to reflect how short rests were supposed to work. One cute way to do it would be to have them refresh at times dictated by the type of pact. So archfey-pact , you roll a d12 at midnight and a d12 at noon, and those are the number of hours until your slots recharge because oh it's so whimsical. Fiend-pact, you get your slots back at 6:66 AM and PM, and by the way we have to reinvent how clocks work. I could go on, but how about I quit while I'm ahead lol.
Or do it like the variant Channel Divinity from Tasha's. The character can recharge really quickly, but they can only do it a few times per long rest. Now it's essentially just encounter-based, but you can require some kind of rite in order to inject more theme and mask the fact that you're just doing encounter powers. Say they have to slice open their palm, or they have to like, defile something in their patron's name or whatever, and then they get their slots back. Yay.
In the core books, Warlock's the only class who can directly boost their spell save DC with a less-than-legendary magic item. The Rod of the Pact Keeper has no equivalent for other classes in the DMG.
They added one for every other caster class, I think. All-Purpose Tool for Artificer, Amulet of the Devout for Cleric and Paladin, Arcane Grimoire for Wizard, Bloodwell Vial for Sorcerer, Moon Sickle for Druid and Ranger, Reveler's Concertina and Rhythm-Maker's Drum for Bard. So Warlock kind of lost something, in a roundabout way.
You wouldn't have to reinvent the clock actually. Because the actual hour of the beast is 6 minutes and 6 seconds after 6 o'clock.
Seems like a pretty short hour.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Personally I have to wonder if they will have the Hexblade pact in the PHB - if that pact grants shield proficiency and/or allows a heavier weapon, maybe a weapon mastery (not everything has to be added at level 3 either), or maybe even an invocation that requires Pact of the Blade, then things can equal out. Currently, a single class Hexblade Warlock who doesn't take Pact of the Blade will fall behind one who does in the combat role, why should a Pact of the Blade Warlock who chooses not to double down with Hexblade be any different? Outside of not wanting to require certain pairings no matter what, that is.
Which might be a reason for it to be an Invocation - grants shield proficiency and weapon mastery, requires Pact of the Blade. Or if that seems to powerful, have one grant the weapon mastery, and another shield mastery.
I'm not sure time-tracking is a good idea. In most campaigns I've been in, time isn't really tracked outside of rests in anything more precise than "morning", "afternoon", "evening", and "night" most times. It just doesn't seem like a detail a DM will typically be thinking of as the session runs, and so when someone asks about it the DM is then left flat-footed trying to come up with an answer.
feature called "one-sided contract" or such. if creature of CR1/2 or better falls to 0hp within 5ft of the warlock (or their familiar?), the warlock may spend a reaction to use their free hand to grapple the creature's escaping soul. one of the warlock's spent pact slots (for 5E version or mystical arcanum if we're talking UA half-caster) is renewed for use next turn. also, the warlock gains the effects of Armor of Agathys as if cast at [(warlock level /2) rounded up +1] spell level. you can succeed at this only three times per long rest and no more often than once every 10 minutes.
i want to say "the warlock makes a simple promise to the deceased (to light a candle for them later, to say their name into the wind, to throw a piece of them into the sea, burn the body, etc... non binding) and in return the caster is briefly empowered." ...but that's just fluff to explain the feature name. also, i couldn't decide if it should require an Arcane skill check or someting like a melee strike with proficiency +INT +CHA. but, no it would be really frustrating to roll poorly a few times after risking one's bacon in the front lines of battle.
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Level 9, Paladin vs Bladelock.
Paladin takes 17 strength to start, then polearm master at 4, then maxes strength at 8.
Bladelock maximizes charisma. Takes improved pact weapon, lifedrinker, eldritch smite.
Combat, Paladin rolls 2(d10+5) damage, then d4+5, for 2d10 + d4 +15. Uses glaive.
Warlock, without Hex, rolls 2(d10+d6+6) for 2d10 + 2d6 + 12. Uses longsword two handed.
Total damage range: Paladin, 18 to 39
Warlock, 16 to 44
Both can use Smite once per turn for 2d8 to 4d8 extra damage once per turn.
Sure, it's not the Hexblade stacking PAM, GWM, IPW, TB, and Spirit Shroud for a potential 147 damage a round, but then Paladins aren't dumping three spell slots a round into Divine Smite either.
Ranger with Hunter's Mark and two weapons with TWF, 3(d6 + 5 + d6) for 6d6 + 15, for a 21 to 51 range. Without Hunter's Mark it's 3d6 +15 for an 18 to 33 range, or in the same ballpark as the Warlock and Paladin.
At level 11 the Paladin gets Radiant Strikes to get an additional 3 to 24 damage a turn, and that's where they pull ahead. The Warlock can expend a level 3 spell slot for a 2d6 Hex, which adds 2 to 12 damage.
But then at level 11 the eldritch blasting Warlock is getting 3(d10+5) for 18 to 45 damage at 120 feet without investing anything more than the invocation we took at level 2.
So, at level 11.
Warlock: Melee: 2(d10 + d6 + 6) = 16 to 44
Warlock: Melee: Hex (2d10 + d6 + 6) + 2d6 = 18 to 56
Warlock: Ranged: 3(d10 + 5) = 18 to 45
Paladin: Melee 2(d10 + d8 + 5) + d4 + d8 + 5 = 2d10 + 3d8 + d4 + 15 = 21 to 63
Ranger: Melee: 3(d6 + 5) = 18 to 33
Ranger: Melee with Hunter's Mark: 3(d6 + d6 + 5) = 21 to 51
Frankly, I'm becoming convinced that every melee option sucks, and there's not a significant difference between them. The Ranger could take Sharpshooter, or the Paladin Great Weapon Master, to add proficiency bonus damage once per turn, but is it worth taking a feat for an additional 2 to 6 damage? I don't think so.
How does this stack up for lock if improved pact weapon and eldritch smite are not allowed given being in Tasha's. How about how does it stack up at 5 to 8 before lifedrinker can kick in?