The "other classes are better with [X] spells than this class!" argument is a bad wrong argument. There is nothing wrong with cleric being able to smite, there is nothing wrong with sorcerers and wizards being able to cast eldritch spells (do you, like...not remember Aberrant sorcerer?), there is nothing wrong with druids being able to use arrow spells. Who cares if the full caster class gets them faster - their original class can generally make better use of them in the case of dingdongs and rangers, or the spells should never have been exclusive in the first place in the case of warlocks and their GOO-y junk. Other people can tap the power of the Far Planes, clerics crushing skulls with a mace blazing with holy light is as iconic as paladins doing it with a sword, and if a druid wants to invoke thorns or brambles with an arrow from their shortbow who are we to tell them they can't?
I play warlocks for Invocations and to a lesser extent the utility of certain pact boons. Up until this UA, I mostly considered their spellcasting a side-gig trick they never got to seriously use outside cantrips. In this UA they can actually cast spells.
Why should we settle for not casting spells when we could cast spells instead?
I strongly disagree with this, it removes class identity, at which point, why even have classes?
When Paladin can do 3rd level smites, Cleric can do 5th level. At the same time Paladin smites with Blinding Smite for 3d8 damage, Cleric can Banishing Smite for 5d10 damage. Now Paladin gets 2 attacks a turn so Paladin just about out-does Cleric in average DPS, but only barely.
Give both classes 20 Strength score, and a 1d8 weapon, Cleric uses Banishing Smite, Paladin uses Blinding Smite. Both at level 9, cleric would do 24.05 average DPR vs 24.20 average DPR for paladin, a measly 0.15 more average DPR for a half-caster with martial focus vs. a full-caster with no martial focus. Of course I am ignoring sub-classes in that and obviously paladin gets a fighting style which can add some damage, but even with that, a single spell launches Cleric into the lead, Spiritual Weapon. When you don't hit with your one hit you use spiritual weapon and now Cleric is literally out-doing Paladin with Paladin's focus. So what is the point of Paladin at this point? Cleric should not have better access to smite spells than Paladin, it's one of the big issues with these spell lists.
The easy fix is to make the trigger for smite spells, to be a replacement for a smite ability, I.E. Divine Smite of which the spell cast can not be a higher level than the smite ability can use a spell slot. Then if Cleric really needs smites, it can have "holy smite", similar to divine smite but with limitations of spell slot being 1/4th of your cleric level, round up. Personally I don't think Cleric even needs smites to begin with, melee/martial is not their focus; Divine spell casting is. Alternatively, if you really think Cleric should get all that, make Paladins full casters, they are now in the "priest" group, so rationale against them not having full spellcaster progression is pretty weak, I don't call for that, because at that point, Paladin would overlap and take away too much identity from Cleric.
The issue is slightly less worse for Warlock with Wizard or sorcerer, since at least Warlock can Mystic Arcanum to get spells of the same level, but it casts them less often, can't upcast as far as Wizard does but basically Sorcerer and Wizard can now out-do Warlock at what were more commonly Warlock spells, which again erodes class identity; which has historically been a huge issue between Wizard and Sorcerer in 5E. Turning a blind eye to an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So I wholly disagree with what you're saying. Right now all Warlock has that is truly warlock is Eldritch Blast, Hex and a pact specific cantrip, which is basically their core abilities from 5E, which left Warlock woefully behind Wizard and Sorcerer, when Warlock had more Warlock specific spells.
First of all, trim your quote chains. This thread is already agonizing with multiple examples of utterly unreadable billion-post quote chains. Thank you…
…Warlocks? Spellcasting is a core functionality. The class is in the Mage group - magic is its whole deal. Gating the warlock's ability to be a spellcaster behind a mechanic that is not widely utilized by the community is Not Okay, regardless of what your opinion of people not using the mechanic is. Warlocks are missing a critical piece of their class and they need it back. Or rather, they need to get that piece given to them in the first place since they never had it.
Hmm while I’m fine with warlocks being half casters, I can’t let an untrue argument stand. Warlocks aren’t meant to be spellcasters the same way wizards, sorcerers, clerics or druids are spellcasters. Their design for 5e was very much centered around eldritch blast. Their design has been centered around eldritch blast since their inception in 3e when they technically didn’t cast spells but had spell like abilities. In 5e they were mea not to be similar to a fighter who just says I attack every turn. The warlock was suppose to and often did say eldritch blast every turn. Problem is if you play the game long enough you realize doing the same thing with no thought every turn gets boring. Now knowing that people want more Spellcasting from Warlocks WotC can alter the class to make Spellcasting leveled spells a core function of the class, but in 5e Spellcasting a cantrip was the core feature. Honestly the half caster version is of the class is still more focused on casting cantrips if you look at it.
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
1) I don't think it would be "obviously superior" at all - just like Arcane Archers are not obviously superior at archery compared to every other Fighter (arguably, Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight and Echo Knight can outshoot them.) I do think that for a specific kind of Bladelock, Hexblade might be superior - say, one that wants to use a 2H weapon and/or heavy armor, depending on how they ultimately end up modifying Hexblade - but not necessarily for all of them.
1) To be fair, Arcane Archer is not superior to anything at all, it's one of, if not the worst fighter subclass. Two shots per short rest is a joke. And if a specific kind of bladelock is better than your average bladelock, people are going to flock to it, that's just how it works. That's why balance matters, it's just not fun to lag behind and deal with an illusion of choice.
"AA is currently undertuned" is not the same as saying "AA shouldn't be a subclass" though. You can buff AA pretty easily, just give it more ammunition with which to do its cool thing. Psi Warriors and Battlemasters get plenty, I would start there.
My point in bringing up subclasses like AA and Open Hand Monk was that the premise "a subclass shouldn't be making decisions for you like that, especially when the decision comes before you even choose the subclass" is inherently faulty.
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
Isn't this also an argument against Wizards having Arcane Recovery? Just saying, this is also an argument against Wizards getting Arcane Recovery.
If Eldritch Bonk is supposed to be the sum totality of what warlocks do and the class is supposed to be nothing but a janky fighter-analogue, where's our d10 hit die? Where's our shield and heavy armor? Where's our bonus feats? Fighters get quite a few nice little perks in return for being boring and pointless - where are those perks for the warlock? I'll grant that Invocations are effectively bonus mini-feats, but that leaves quite a bit of class budget left to spend.
Same question to you then, ThriKreen - what do you give up for all the bounteous extra casting we want? Short rest recharge? Level progression? Slot level? Or do we give up Invocations instead because y'all insist on stronger casting without anything to pay or show for it, like they can just triple the number of Pact slots you get and not catch infinite hatred for it.
What gets to change? Something has to, so what gets to?
I think I, and many others, in this thread and the other 1 or 2 Warlock threads in this UA section have already said.
First, I read one of your posts earlier where you said,
I play warlocks for Invocations and to a lesser extent the utility of certain pact boons. Up until this UA, I mostly considered their spellcasting a side-gig trick they never got to seriously use outside cantrips. In this UA they can actually cast spells.
And I completely agree, in part, with the bolded. And is part of the answer.
So to answer your questions:
1. Invocations seriously need a buff. There are plenty of Utility spells that could be added as Invocations and unique invocations to boost Pact Boons and Subclasses can be added as well. And Warlocks could use more than the 9 invocations that the UA gives. 12 could be a starting place, but that can vary for balance reason. Some Invocations can be "cast without a spell slot" like they are in the UA, some could have level prerequisites for higher level/more powerful spell options. Invocations should be where much of your spellcasting would come from.
1a. Mystic Arcanum, if they remain Invocations, are yet another method, in the UA, for Warlocks to pick up yet even more spellcasting with spells that can add even more versatility to the class, like Buff, Debuff, and Battlefield control (Hypnotic Pattern comes to mind). There are so many awesome spells on the Arcane List that Warlocks now have access to, plus MA that starts earlier so you can flesh out your spellcasting even more than the old Warlock. So right there they are meeting some of the requests for "more spells" that JC mentioned.
2. Give up short rest recharge of pact slots. Add 1-3 pact slots (not sure how many to maintain balance) to the Warlock progression of Pact magic. With a means of, 1/Long Rest, Regain some, if not all, those pact slots. Kind of like Arcane Recovery or like Ain_Undos suggests in Post #584 on page 30 of this thread. (Notice they are also someone who is NOT demanding Pact Magic remains SR, contrary to your earlier generalizations). These spell slots are the big "boom" spells of the Warlock. Typically chosen for spells that scale well. You have options more than just "roll more damage dice" you have options like Hold Person on up to 4 Humanoids in one cast, etc. (edit: once you get the 5th level slot at 9th level)
EDIT: If you are relying on only your Pact slots for your spellcasting you are like a Wizard that only focuses on damage spells. That wizard completely misses out on most of the power of their spellcasting just to roll extra dice. And are weaker wizards than those who can change the flow of battle, buff their allies, debuff the enemy. Pact Magic should be more like a balanced wizard. Some good damage or scaling control spells via Pact Magic, with Invocations and Mystic Arcanum as the buff, debuff, battlefield control and utility castings.
First of all, trim your quote chains. This thread is already agonizing with multiple examples of utterly unreadable billion-post quote chains. Thank you…
…Warlocks? Spellcasting is a core functionality. The class is in the Mage group - magic is its whole deal. Gating the warlock's ability to be a spellcaster behind a mechanic that is not widely utilized by the community is Not Okay, regardless of what your opinion of people not using the mechanic is. Warlocks are missing a critical piece of their class and they need it back. Or rather, they need to get that piece given to them in the first place since they never had it.
Hmm while I’m fine with warlocks being half casters, I can’t let an untrue argument stand. Warlocks aren’t meant to be spellcasters the same way wizards, sorcerers, clerics or druids are spellcasters. Their design for 5e was very much centered around eldritch blast. Their design has been centered around eldritch blast since their inception in 3e when they technically didn’t cast spells but had spell like abilities. In 5e they were mea not to be similar to a fighter who just says I attack every turn. The warlock was suppose to and often did say eldritch blast every turn. Problem is if you play the game long enough you realize doing the same thing with no thought every turn gets boring. Now knowing that people want more Spellcasting from Warlocks WotC can alter the class to make Spellcasting leveled spells a core function of the class, but in 5e Spellcasting a cantrip was the core feature. Honestly the half caster version is of the class is still more focused on casting cantrips if you look at it.
I disagree with this. I think they are primarily casters. Which is why half caster is a crap way to build them. They are reinforced with eldritch blast but I'd say core is spell caster. Maybe not in 3e but they had a lot of cast spell choices, but 4e/5e I'd say spell caster. And warlocks in general literature are just casters. I wish theyd lean more into hexing/curses as I think that is a better thematic fit for a warlock class. As they want this to be a 5.5 I'd say add invocations that enhances hex's hexiness.
Same question to you then, ThriKreen - what do you give up for all the bounteous extra casting we want? Short rest recharge? Level progression? Slot level? Or do we give up Invocations instead because y'all insist on stronger casting without anything to pay or show for it, like they can just triple the number of Pact slots you get and not catch infinite hatred for it.
What gets to change? Something has to, so what gets to?
Why do you have to give something up. If the argument is that their number of spells is under tuned you should not need to give something up to bring them to par.
If Eldritch Bonk is supposed to be the sum totality of what warlocks do and the class is supposed to be nothing but a janky fighter-analogue, where's our d10 hit die? Where's our shield and heavy armor? Where's our bonus feats? Fighters get quite a few nice little perks in return for being boring and pointless - where are those perks for the warlock? I'll grant that Invocations are effectively bonus mini-feats, but that leaves quite a bit of class budget left to spend.
Didn’t say only Eldritch Blast. Clearly the small amount of powerful rechargeable spell slots put Warlocks in a position to do something other than to always eldritch blast. But definitely they were designed to mostly eldritch blast. You said it in one of your own post that outside of cantrips their Spellcasting was back pocket. That is by design. But it was designed to be powerful back pocket Spellcasting. There are two sides to this arguments. 1. Would rather have less more powerful pact magic. 2. Would rather have more spell slots offered by Spellcasting as a half caster. I liked the half caster design, but understand it greatly weakens Armor of agathys, and Hellish rebuke. It also slows when they get summons and other staples I’ve seen warlocks take.
Isn't this also an argument against Wizards having Arcane Recovery? Just saying, this is also an argument against Wizards getting Arcane Recovery.
Can't trim multinested quotes properly on the phone, deal with the ugly.
Anyways. Key difference - wizards get spell slots BACK. They can only Arcanely Recover if they expended those slots in the first place. They're not gated behind short rests to cast the damn spells in the first place, the way warlocks are. Wizards get their entire day's resources up front and get to decide how to use them, and if they just so happen to get a short rest they get a bonus. Warlocks get maybe a quarter of their day's resources up front and have to play in a distinctly unnatural way, burning recklessly through their resources then forcing the party to stop and short rest over and over, to come even remotely close to getting the same value per day as a more conventional caster.
EVERYBODY deserves to have their whole day's adventuring resources available to them up front. Anything you get back on short rest is a BONUS, it absolutely cannot be completely essential to your class functioning.
It is Not Okay to have to beg for multiple short rests just to get what the other casters in your party get just for existing.
If Eldritch Bonk is supposed to be the sum totality of what warlocks do and the class is supposed to be nothing but a janky fighter-analogue, where's our d10 hit die? Where's our shield and heavy armor? Where's our bonus feats? Fighters get quite a few nice little perks in return for being boring and pointless - where are those perks for the warlock? I'll grant that Invocations are effectively bonus mini-feats, but that leaves quite a bit of class budget left to spend.
Warlock is meant to be a primarily Eldritch Blast focused class, Pact of the Blade can change that in it's current form but with the other two selections, Tome and Chain, people are going to focus on Eldritch Blast. That means spells when cast need to be impactful enough to be invoking the action to spell casting instead but half-caster progression speeds aren't in-line with that. I Personally think Pact Magic was fine, the issue was the number of slots was simply too low for too long in 5E. You got 2 slots at level 2, then 3 at level 11. It meant from levels 2 to 10, you'd get maybe 4 spell casts a day, and one of those is usually going to be Hex, giving 3 spells.
I certainly don't think reducing Warlock to being an half-caster was at all the right choice, if anything it's a nerf to what was already the weakest of the 3 arcane casters and Warlock really hasn't seen any thing in the UA to make up for the scale of nerf they have been hit with, the higher number of spell slots is not compensation, given all those spell slots are of a lower level than Warlock had previously with pact magic and the spells mostly aren't going to compensate for not casting eldritch blast instead; since they are now lower levelled spells. About the only spells you might now be casting are Shield and Absorb Elements, which you can cast more often, but survivability was not warlock's issue in 5E.
I might be being cynical but I'm pretty sure Warlock's removal of pact magic is nothing to do with balancing and all to do with making multi-classing more simple, since now you just do a half-caster progression instead of full-caster progression when calculating in Warlock's spell slots, it has some merits but simply leaves Warlock in a bad place over all.
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
Isn't this also an argument against Wizards having Arcane Recovery? Just saying, this is also an argument against Wizards getting Arcane Recovery.
No, Yurei has been arguing against arguments people haven't actually been making that is a -1000 to everything Yurei is saying.
1) No, Arcane Recovery is a nice to have, not a primary resource. If you took Arcane Recovery away from the Wizard they would still feel like a wizard, still be the strongest spellcaster in the game etc. Also, again, what Yurei said.
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
The problem comes when you can use an ability with a lasting effect on a short rest. Hence second wind moving to long rest whereas action surge is left at short rest.
Arcane Recovery is still a short rest for wizards, so you may want to revise that theory
Arcane Recovery is only usable once per day, and it's very very limited. Giving warlocks a once per day (or twice per day, or something) recovery is an option.
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
The problem comes when you can use an ability with a lasting effect on a short rest. Hence second wind moving to long rest whereas action surge is left at short rest.
That makes no sense. Why should a “lasting effect” make any difference?
Because it incentivizes things like "at the start of the morning, wake up and cast your lasting buffs, then short rest" or "we're beat up, so take a short rest, cast all the heals, take a short rest again" (yeah, healing isn't on the core warlock list, but there are a number of ways of getting it).
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
Isn't this also an argument against Wizards having Arcane Recovery? Just saying, this is also an argument against Wizards getting Arcane Recovery.
No, Yurei has been arguing against arguments people haven't actually been making that is a -1000 to everything Yurei is saying.
1) No, Arcane Recovery is a nice to have, not a primary resource. If you took Arcane Recovery away from the Wizard they would still feel like a wizard, still be the strongest spellcaster in the game etc. Also, again, what Yurei said.
2) I said what I said, and didn't stutter.
That's incorrect tho, since it'd mean Wizard would be behind Sorcerer in the potential amount of spells per-day, Arcane Recovery actually stops Wizards being sub-par in everything but versatility (due to more known spells vs. prepared spells) compared to Sorcerer, which in the next UA is a bigger issue since Wizard doesn't really have exclusive spells separate from Sorcerer any more. It is a key part in Wizard and Sorcerer being balanced.
And again, the issue with Pact Magic was that the number of slots was simply too low for too long, the fix used here in the UA is simply a nerf, yes it's more spell slots but it's lower levelled slots than Wizard or Sorcerer and that is an issue. There needs to be a good reason to cast spells, you are also having to sacrifice 1/2 of your highest levelled slots for Hex still anyway and now you don't even get those back on a short rest. When you get 3rd level slots at level 9 or 5th at 17, heck at 17 and 18, if you want your full powered hex, you don't get any other 5th levelled spells. in 5E, you get 5th level hex at level 9 and still have another 5th level slot left over and can get another 2 slots with a single short rest.
EDIT: Fixing Warlock is much easier, keep Pact Magic, instead of increasing the tier of the only two pact magic slots, just having 2 slots per tier up to level 5 so you get the following.
level - slots
1 - 1
2 - 1 1
3 - 2 1 1
4 - 2 2 1 1
5 - 3 2 2 1 1
6 - 3 3 2 2 1 1
7 - 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
8 - 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
9 - 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1
10 - 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
Give Warlock a once per day ability that restores 1 slot of each tier they have a pact magic slot for. It's a much better middle ground and then Warlock can continue with Mystic Arcanum as per 5E for anything above 5th level.
Anyways. Key difference - wizards get spell slots BACK. They can only Arcanely Recover if they expended those slots in the first place. They're not gated behind short rests to cast the damn spells in the first place, the way warlocks are. Wizards get their entire day's resources up front and get to decide how to use them, and if they just so happen to get a short rest they get a bonus. Warlocks get maybe a quarter of their day's resources up front and have to play in a distinctly unnatural way, burning recklessly through their resources then forcing the party to stop and short rest over and over, to come even remotely close to getting the same value per day as a more conventional caster.
EVERYBODY deserves to have their whole day's adventuring resources available to them up front. Anything you get back on short rest is a BONUS, it absolutely cannot be completely essential to your class functioning.
It is Not Okay to have to beg for multiple short rests just to get what the other casters in your party get just for existing.
1. For quite a few levels wizards rely on that short rest almost as much as the warlock as their cantrip options are not as good.
2. No, what everyone deserves are unique classes that fit a variety of play styles not homogeneity or everything into the bland. Short rests for the warlock aren't a bonus they are a core feature that make the warlock better. For every time I am out a short rest and "weaker" than a standard mage I will have a time where I can burn through short rests in order to completely change the landscape of how spells are used, though it could cause issues with the whole arcane list. Something I am not a fan of as unique lists are more interesting, though the warlocks list clearly needed some love. Like seriously warlocks didn't get bestow curse.
3. Learn to ask without begging, its pretty easy actually. Though again a lot of people have offered solutions in this regard, another way to regain slots maybe once a day, or burning another resource for slots etc. But no you don't want anything but goth ranger.
That's incorrect tho, since it'd mean Wizard would be behind Sorcerer in the potential amount of spells per-day, Arcane Recovery actually stops Wizards being sub-par in everything but versatility (due to more known spells vs. prepared spells) compared to Sorcerer, which in the next UA is a bigger issue since Wizard doesn't really have exclusive spells separate from Sorcerer any more. It is a key part in Wizard and Sorcerer being balanced.
And again, the issue with Pact Magic was that the number of slots was simply too low for too long, the fix used here in the UA is simply a nerf, yes it's more spell slots but it's lower levelled slots than Wizard or Sorcerer and that is an issue. There needs to be a good reason to cast spells, you are also having to sacrifice 1/2 of your highest levelled slots for Hex still anyway and now you don't even get those back on a short rest. When you get 3rd level slots at level 9 or 5th at 17, heck at 17 and 18, if you want your full powered hex, you don't get any other 5th levelled spells. in 5E, you get 5th level hex at level 9 and still have another 5th level slot left over and can get another 2 slots with a single short rest.
1) Wizards have always been behind Sorcerers in spells per day (and not just in 5e.) And they still are. Arcane Recovery does not make up for Font of Magic.
2) Versatility is extremely powerful for spellcasters. All those situational spells Wizards can afford to grab for one day and then swap out the next day, are much more difficult for a Sorcerer to use.
3) The UA is not a nerf. Warlocks can now make great use of spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs that would have been extremely painful to use Pact Slots on before, and they can still at most levels stay on the power curve like they did before. They also got several invocation taxes removed and baked into the new cantrips.
Take away Arcane Recovery from a Wizard they still feel like a Wizard. I get that and completely agree.
Take away Sorcerers Sorcery Points and I don't think they will feel the same. And SP are in addition to their full progression spell slots. Yet they get a spell that gives them SP back (Sorcery Incarnate spell at 9th Level) and yet another ability (Sorcerous Restoration at 15th level) that gives 4 SP back if you roll initiative or take a Short Rest. So if you are out of SP (or low on SP) you can take a short rest and on your very first combat after the SR have a total of 8 SP regained (4 SR, 4 w/ Initiative) at 15th level. 9-12 SP if you cast Sorcery Incarnate at some point.
So why shouldn't a Warlock get similar features? Obviously, they would work a bit differently, but should be doable. I'm starting to like Ain_Undos's version more and more as it doesn't require the dreaded Short Rest to work.
No, what I want is to not constantly have to stop the game and say "hey guys, I know we're already deep into the Evil Dungeon and there's danger and excitement around every turn, but I cast a leveled spell recently so we need to stop playing D&D for an hour so I can still be a spellcaster".
I get it, Dudeicus - you think warlocks are perfectly fine and don't need changing of any sort whatsoever. Here's the thing: " the most common, frequently requested feedback we get about warlocks is more spells, more often." I am not the only person dissatisfied with Pact Magic. Pact Magic sucking wurst is a COMMON, FREQUENT COMPLAINT. The guy with all the data said so, openly and unambiguously. They would not have upended the applecart this way if they didn't have TONS of data saying people were complaining about rotten apples.
You CANNOT simply tell people "short rest 5+ times a day or never play warlock." What if Wizards introduced a new class but it was only legal/valid/viable to play with the Slow Natural Healing variant rule, and if you didn't use that rule you weren't permitted to play the class? How much riot would y'all raise about how it's JUST NOT FAIR to force people to use an obscure variant rule nobody likes before they can play the new thing?
Short rests are an Obscure Variant Rule for a broad collection of tables. You **cannot** make an entire class that is almost entirely worthless if it does not get 5+ short rests a day. You just cannot.
Take away Arcane Recovery from a Wizard they still feel like a Wizard. I get that and completely agree.
Take away Sorcerers Sorcery Points and I don't think they will feel the same. And SP are in addition to their full progression spell slots. Yet they get a spell that gives them SP back (Sorcery Incarnate spell at 9th Level) and yet another ability (Sorcerous Restoration at 15th level) that gives 4 SP back if you roll initiative or take a Short Rest. So if you are out of SP (or low on SP) you can take a short rest and on your very first combat after the SR have a total of 8 SP regained (4 SR, 4 w/ Initiative) at 15th level. 9-12 SP if you cast Sorcery Incarnate at some point.
So why shouldn't a Warlock get similar features? Obviously, they would work a bit differently, but should be doable. I'm starting to like Ain_Undos's version more and more as it doesn't require the dreaded Short Rest to work.
Yeah Ain_Undos's is a decent compromise of sorts imo. I still prefer short rests with maybe some tack on for a once a day recharge outside of them. Or I kind of dig burning some other resource for slots back, like hit dice, max hit points, exhaustion which could reflect giving something to you patron and getting the slots back. But for me pact magic is a non negotiable, its one of the couple things that made the 5e warlock the 5e warlock. If I wanted to be a goth ranger, I'd play a gloom stalker ranger.
No, what I want is to not constantly have to stop the game and say "hey guys, I know we're already deep into the Evil Dungeon and there's danger and excitement around every turn, but I cast a leveled spell recently so we need to stop playing D&D for an hour so I can still be a spellcaster".
I get it, Dudeicus - you think warlocks are perfectly fine and don't need changing of any sort whatsoever. Here's the thing: " the most common, frequently requested feedback we get about warlocks is more spells, more often." I am not the only person dissatisfied with Pact Magic. Pact Magic sucking wurst is a COMMON, FREQUENT COMPLAINT. The guy with all the data said so, openly and unambiguously. They would not have upended the applecart this way if they didn't have TONS of data saying people were complaining about rotten apples.
You CANNOT simply tell people "short rest 5+ times a day or never play warlock." What if Wizards introduced a new class but it was only legal/valid/viable to play with the Slow Natural Healing variant rule, and if you didn't use that rule you weren't permitted to play the class? How much riot would y'all raise about how it's JUST NOT FAIR to force people to use an obscure variant rule nobody likes before they can play the new thing?
Short rests are an Obscure Variant Rule for a broad collection of tables. You **cannot** make an entire class that is almost entirely worthless if it does not get 5+ short rests a day. You just cannot.
Cool, you are wrong. But you are entitled to be wrong.
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I strongly disagree with this, it removes class identity, at which point, why even have classes?
When Paladin can do 3rd level smites, Cleric can do 5th level. At the same time Paladin smites with Blinding Smite for 3d8 damage, Cleric can Banishing Smite for 5d10 damage. Now Paladin gets 2 attacks a turn so Paladin just about out-does Cleric in average DPS, but only barely.
Give both classes 20 Strength score, and a 1d8 weapon, Cleric uses Banishing Smite, Paladin uses Blinding Smite. Both at level 9, cleric would do 24.05 average DPR vs 24.20 average DPR for paladin, a measly 0.15 more average DPR for a half-caster with martial focus vs. a full-caster with no martial focus. Of course I am ignoring sub-classes in that and obviously paladin gets a fighting style which can add some damage, but even with that, a single spell launches Cleric into the lead, Spiritual Weapon. When you don't hit with your one hit you use spiritual weapon and now Cleric is literally out-doing Paladin with Paladin's focus. So what is the point of Paladin at this point? Cleric should not have better access to smite spells than Paladin, it's one of the big issues with these spell lists.
The easy fix is to make the trigger for smite spells, to be a replacement for a smite ability, I.E. Divine Smite of which the spell cast can not be a higher level than the smite ability can use a spell slot. Then if Cleric really needs smites, it can have "holy smite", similar to divine smite but with limitations of spell slot being 1/4th of your cleric level, round up. Personally I don't think Cleric even needs smites to begin with, melee/martial is not their focus; Divine spell casting is. Alternatively, if you really think Cleric should get all that, make Paladins full casters, they are now in the "priest" group, so rationale against them not having full spellcaster progression is pretty weak, I don't call for that, because at that point, Paladin would overlap and take away too much identity from Cleric.
The issue is slightly less worse for Warlock with Wizard or sorcerer, since at least Warlock can Mystic Arcanum to get spells of the same level, but it casts them less often, can't upcast as far as Wizard does but basically Sorcerer and Wizard can now out-do Warlock at what were more commonly Warlock spells, which again erodes class identity; which has historically been a huge issue between Wizard and Sorcerer in 5E. Turning a blind eye to an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So I wholly disagree with what you're saying. Right now all Warlock has that is truly warlock is Eldritch Blast, Hex and a pact specific cantrip, which is basically their core abilities from 5E, which left Warlock woefully behind Wizard and Sorcerer, when Warlock had more Warlock specific spells.
Hmm while I’m fine with warlocks being half casters, I can’t let an untrue argument stand. Warlocks aren’t meant to be spellcasters the same way wizards, sorcerers, clerics or druids are spellcasters. Their design for 5e was very much centered around eldritch blast. Their design has been centered around eldritch blast since their inception in 3e when they technically didn’t cast spells but had spell like abilities. In 5e they were mea not to be similar to a fighter who just says I attack every turn. The warlock was suppose to and often did say eldritch blast every turn. Problem is if you play the game long enough you realize doing the same thing with no thought every turn gets boring. Now knowing that people want more Spellcasting from Warlocks WotC can alter the class to make Spellcasting leveled spells a core function of the class, but in 5e Spellcasting a cantrip was the core feature. Honestly the half caster version is of the class is still more focused on casting cantrips if you look at it.
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
"AA is currently undertuned" is not the same as saying "AA shouldn't be a subclass" though. You can buff AA pretty easily, just give it more ammunition with which to do its cool thing. Psi Warriors and Battlemasters get plenty, I would start there.
My point in bringing up subclasses like AA and Open Hand Monk was that the premise "a subclass shouldn't be making decisions for you like that, especially when the decision comes before you even choose the subclass" is inherently faulty.
Isn't this also an argument against Wizards having Arcane Recovery? Just saying, this is also an argument against Wizards getting Arcane Recovery.
No, Yurei has been arguing against arguments people haven't actually been making that is a -1000 to everything Yurei is saying.
If Eldritch Bonk is supposed to be the sum totality of what warlocks do and the class is supposed to be nothing but a janky fighter-analogue, where's our d10 hit die? Where's our shield and heavy armor? Where's our bonus feats? Fighters get quite a few nice little perks in return for being boring and pointless - where are those perks for the warlock? I'll grant that Invocations are effectively bonus mini-feats, but that leaves quite a bit of class budget left to spend.
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I think I, and many others, in this thread and the other 1 or 2 Warlock threads in this UA section have already said.
First, I read one of your posts earlier where you said,
And I completely agree, in part, with the bolded. And is part of the answer.
So to answer your questions:
1. Invocations seriously need a buff. There are plenty of Utility spells that could be added as Invocations and unique invocations to boost Pact Boons and Subclasses can be added as well. And Warlocks could use more than the 9 invocations that the UA gives. 12 could be a starting place, but that can vary for balance reason. Some Invocations can be "cast without a spell slot" like they are in the UA, some could have level prerequisites for higher level/more powerful spell options. Invocations should be where much of your spellcasting would come from.
1a. Mystic Arcanum, if they remain Invocations, are yet another method, in the UA, for Warlocks to pick up yet even more spellcasting with spells that can add even more versatility to the class, like Buff, Debuff, and Battlefield control (Hypnotic Pattern comes to mind). There are so many awesome spells on the Arcane List that Warlocks now have access to, plus MA that starts earlier so you can flesh out your spellcasting even more than the old Warlock. So right there they are meeting some of the requests for "more spells" that JC mentioned.
2. Give up short rest recharge of pact slots. Add 1-3 pact slots (not sure how many to maintain balance) to the Warlock progression of Pact magic. With a means of, 1/Long Rest, Regain some, if not all, those pact slots. Kind of like Arcane Recovery or like Ain_Undos suggests in Post #584 on page 30 of this thread. (Notice they are also someone who is NOT demanding Pact Magic remains SR, contrary to your earlier generalizations). These spell slots are the big "boom" spells of the Warlock. Typically chosen for spells that scale well. You have options more than just "roll more damage dice" you have options like Hold Person on up to 4 Humanoids in one cast, etc. (edit: once you get the 5th level slot at 9th level)
EDIT: If you are relying on only your Pact slots for your spellcasting you are like a Wizard that only focuses on damage spells. That wizard completely misses out on most of the power of their spellcasting just to roll extra dice. And are weaker wizards than those who can change the flow of battle, buff their allies, debuff the enemy. Pact Magic should be more like a balanced wizard. Some good damage or scaling control spells via Pact Magic, with Invocations and Mystic Arcanum as the buff, debuff, battlefield control and utility castings.
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I disagree with this. I think they are primarily casters. Which is why half caster is a crap way to build them. They are reinforced with eldritch blast but I'd say core is spell caster. Maybe not in 3e but they had a lot of cast spell choices, but 4e/5e I'd say spell caster. And warlocks in general literature are just casters. I wish theyd lean more into hexing/curses as I think that is a better thematic fit for a warlock class. As they want this to be a 5.5 I'd say add invocations that enhances hex's hexiness.
Why do you have to give something up. If the argument is that their number of spells is under tuned you should not need to give something up to bring them to par.
Didn’t say only Eldritch Blast. Clearly the small amount of powerful rechargeable spell slots put Warlocks in a position to do something other than to always eldritch blast. But definitely they were designed to mostly eldritch blast. You said it in one of your own post that outside of cantrips their Spellcasting was back pocket. That is by design. But it was designed to be powerful back pocket Spellcasting. There are two sides to this arguments. 1. Would rather have less more powerful pact magic. 2. Would rather have more spell slots offered by Spellcasting as a half caster. I liked the half caster design, but understand it greatly weakens Armor of agathys, and Hellish rebuke. It also slows when they get summons and other staples I’ve seen warlocks take.
Can't trim multinested quotes properly on the phone, deal with the ugly.
Anyways. Key difference - wizards get spell slots BACK. They can only Arcanely Recover if they expended those slots in the first place. They're not gated behind short rests to cast the damn spells in the first place, the way warlocks are. Wizards get their entire day's resources up front and get to decide how to use them, and if they just so happen to get a short rest they get a bonus. Warlocks get maybe a quarter of their day's resources up front and have to play in a distinctly unnatural way, burning recklessly through their resources then forcing the party to stop and short rest over and over, to come even remotely close to getting the same value per day as a more conventional caster.
EVERYBODY deserves to have their whole day's adventuring resources available to them up front. Anything you get back on short rest is a BONUS, it absolutely cannot be completely essential to your class functioning.
It is Not Okay to have to beg for multiple short rests just to get what the other casters in your party get just for existing.
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Warlock is meant to be a primarily Eldritch Blast focused class, Pact of the Blade can change that in it's current form but with the other two selections, Tome and Chain, people are going to focus on Eldritch Blast. That means spells when cast need to be impactful enough to be invoking the action to spell casting instead but half-caster progression speeds aren't in-line with that. I Personally think Pact Magic was fine, the issue was the number of slots was simply too low for too long in 5E. You got 2 slots at level 2, then 3 at level 11. It meant from levels 2 to 10, you'd get maybe 4 spell casts a day, and one of those is usually going to be Hex, giving 3 spells.
I certainly don't think reducing Warlock to being an half-caster was at all the right choice, if anything it's a nerf to what was already the weakest of the 3 arcane casters and Warlock really hasn't seen any thing in the UA to make up for the scale of nerf they have been hit with, the higher number of spell slots is not compensation, given all those spell slots are of a lower level than Warlock had previously with pact magic and the spells mostly aren't going to compensate for not casting eldritch blast instead; since they are now lower levelled spells. About the only spells you might now be casting are Shield and Absorb Elements, which you can cast more often, but survivability was not warlock's issue in 5E.
I might be being cynical but I'm pretty sure Warlock's removal of pact magic is nothing to do with balancing and all to do with making multi-classing more simple, since now you just do a half-caster progression instead of full-caster progression when calculating in Warlock's spell slots, it has some merits but simply leaves Warlock in a bad place over all.
1) No, Arcane Recovery is a nice to have, not a primary resource. If you took Arcane Recovery away from the Wizard they would still feel like a wizard, still be the strongest spellcaster in the game etc. Also, again, what Yurei said.
2) I said what I said, and didn't stutter.
Arcane Recovery is only usable once per day, and it's very very limited. Giving warlocks a once per day (or twice per day, or something) recovery is an option.
Because it incentivizes things like "at the start of the morning, wake up and cast your lasting buffs, then short rest" or "we're beat up, so take a short rest, cast all the heals, take a short rest again" (yeah, healing isn't on the core warlock list, but there are a number of ways of getting it).
That's incorrect tho, since it'd mean Wizard would be behind Sorcerer in the potential amount of spells per-day, Arcane Recovery actually stops Wizards being sub-par in everything but versatility (due to more known spells vs. prepared spells) compared to Sorcerer, which in the next UA is a bigger issue since Wizard doesn't really have exclusive spells separate from Sorcerer any more. It is a key part in Wizard and Sorcerer being balanced.
And again, the issue with Pact Magic was that the number of slots was simply too low for too long, the fix used here in the UA is simply a nerf, yes it's more spell slots but it's lower levelled slots than Wizard or Sorcerer and that is an issue. There needs to be a good reason to cast spells, you are also having to sacrifice 1/2 of your highest levelled slots for Hex still anyway and now you don't even get those back on a short rest. When you get 3rd level slots at level 9 or 5th at 17, heck at 17 and 18, if you want your full powered hex, you don't get any other 5th levelled spells. in 5E, you get 5th level hex at level 9 and still have another 5th level slot left over and can get another 2 slots with a single short rest.
EDIT: Fixing Warlock is much easier, keep Pact Magic, instead of increasing the tier of the only two pact magic slots, just having 2 slots per tier up to level 5 so you get the following.
level - slots
1 - 1
2 - 1 1
3 - 2 1 1
4 - 2 2 1 1
5 - 3 2 2 1 1
6 - 3 3 2 2 1 1
7 - 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
8 - 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
9 - 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1
10 - 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
Give Warlock a once per day ability that restores 1 slot of each tier they have a pact magic slot for. It's a much better middle ground and then Warlock can continue with Mystic Arcanum as per 5E for anything above 5th level.
1. For quite a few levels wizards rely on that short rest almost as much as the warlock as their cantrip options are not as good.
2. No, what everyone deserves are unique classes that fit a variety of play styles not homogeneity or everything into the bland. Short rests for the warlock aren't a bonus they are a core feature that make the warlock better. For every time I am out a short rest and "weaker" than a standard mage I will have a time where I can burn through short rests in order to completely change the landscape of how spells are used, though it could cause issues with the whole arcane list. Something I am not a fan of as unique lists are more interesting, though the warlocks list clearly needed some love. Like seriously warlocks didn't get bestow curse.
3. Learn to ask without begging, its pretty easy actually. Though again a lot of people have offered solutions in this regard, another way to regain slots maybe once a day, or burning another resource for slots etc. But no you don't want anything but goth ranger.
1) Wizards have always been behind Sorcerers in spells per day (and not just in 5e.) And they still are. Arcane Recovery does not make up for Font of Magic.
2) Versatility is extremely powerful for spellcasters. All those situational spells Wizards can afford to grab for one day and then swap out the next day, are much more difficult for a Sorcerer to use.
3) The UA is not a nerf. Warlocks can now make great use of spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs that would have been extremely painful to use Pact Slots on before, and they can still at most levels stay on the power curve like they did before. They also got several invocation taxes removed and baked into the new cantrips.
Take away Arcane Recovery from a Wizard they still feel like a Wizard. I get that and completely agree.
Take away Sorcerers Sorcery Points and I don't think they will feel the same. And SP are in addition to their full progression spell slots. Yet they get a spell that gives them SP back (Sorcery Incarnate spell at 9th Level) and yet another ability (Sorcerous Restoration at 15th level) that gives 4 SP back if you roll initiative or take a Short Rest. So if you are out of SP (or low on SP) you can take a short rest and on your very first combat after the SR have a total of 8 SP regained (4 SR, 4 w/ Initiative) at 15th level. 9-12 SP if you cast Sorcery Incarnate at some point.
So why shouldn't a Warlock get similar features? Obviously, they would work a bit differently, but should be doable. I'm starting to like Ain_Undos's version more and more as it doesn't require the dreaded Short Rest to work.
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No, what I want is to not constantly have to stop the game and say "hey guys, I know we're already deep into the Evil Dungeon and there's danger and excitement around every turn, but I cast a leveled spell recently so we need to stop playing D&D for an hour so I can still be a spellcaster".
I get it, Dudeicus - you think warlocks are perfectly fine and don't need changing of any sort whatsoever. Here's the thing: " the most common, frequently requested feedback we get about warlocks is more spells, more often." I am not the only person dissatisfied with Pact Magic. Pact Magic sucking wurst is a COMMON, FREQUENT COMPLAINT. The guy with all the data said so, openly and unambiguously. They would not have upended the applecart this way if they didn't have TONS of data saying people were complaining about rotten apples.
You CANNOT simply tell people "short rest 5+ times a day or never play warlock." What if Wizards introduced a new class but it was only legal/valid/viable to play with the Slow Natural Healing variant rule, and if you didn't use that rule you weren't permitted to play the class? How much riot would y'all raise about how it's JUST NOT FAIR to force people to use an obscure variant rule nobody likes before they can play the new thing?
Short rests are an Obscure Variant Rule for a broad collection of tables. You **cannot** make an entire class that is almost entirely worthless if it does not get 5+ short rests a day. You just cannot.
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Yeah Ain_Undos's is a decent compromise of sorts imo. I still prefer short rests with maybe some tack on for a once a day recharge outside of them. Or I kind of dig burning some other resource for slots back, like hit dice, max hit points, exhaustion which could reflect giving something to you patron and getting the slots back. But for me pact magic is a non negotiable, its one of the couple things that made the 5e warlock the 5e warlock. If I wanted to be a goth ranger, I'd play a gloom stalker ranger.
Cool, you are wrong. But you are entitled to be wrong.