The "other classes are better with [X] spells than this class!" argument is a bad wrong argument. There is nothing wrong with cleric being able to smite, there is nothing wrong with sorcerers and wizards being able to cast eldritch spells (do you, like...not remember Aberrant sorcerer?), there is nothing wrong with druids being able to use arrow spells. Who cares if the full caster class gets them faster - their original class can generally make better use of them in the case of dingdongs and rangers, or the spells should never have been exclusive in the first place in the case of warlocks and their GOO-y junk. Other people can tap the power of the Far Planes, clerics crushing skulls with a mace blazing with holy light is as iconic as paladins doing it with a sword, and if a druid wants to invoke thorns or brambles with an arrow from their shortbow who are we to tell them they can't?
I play warlocks for Invocations and to a lesser extent the utility of certain pact boons. Up until this UA, I mostly considered their spellcasting a side-gig trick they never got to seriously use outside cantrips. In this UA they can actually cast spells.
Why should we settle for not casting spells when we could cast spells instead?
It really isn't.
There isn't anything wrong with other classes getting to access spells used by other classes, but they shouldn't be better at it than the class the spell was designed for.
How exactly would Warlocks get better use out the spells I listed, when we progress towards them at half the rate of Wizards? You argument is absolutely pants of head bonkers, and just because you personally like a specific playstyle, you don't get to ignore everyone elses' opinion either, especially when you are in the clear minority.
And for the nth time, WHO SAYS WE SHOULDN'T CAST SPELLS? Quote one person or stop saying it.
Take away Arcane Recovery from a Wizard they still feel like a Wizard. I get that and completely agree.
Take away Sorcerers Sorcery Points and I don't think they will feel the same. And SP are in addition to their full progression spell slots. Yet they get a spell that gives them SP back (Sorcery Incarnate spell at 9th Level) and yet another ability (Sorcerous Restoration at 15th level) that gives 4 SP back if you roll initiative or take a Short Rest. So if you are out of SP (or low on SP) you can take a short rest and on your very first combat after the SR have a total of 8 SP regained (4 SR, 4 w/ Initiative) at 15th level. 9-12 SP if you cast Sorcery Incarnate at some point.
So why shouldn't a Warlock get similar features? Obviously, they would work a bit differently, but should be doable. I'm starting to like Ain_Undos's version more and more as it doesn't require the dreaded Short Rest to work.
Right - SP recovers on a long rest, all the way up to 15th level when you get a small portion of your total back on a short rest. So we agree then? 🤨
As for why not Warlock, by 15th level you should have plenty of invocations to give you more non-cantrip at-will goodies (read: leveled spells) than other casters get, but if Warlocks got something else at 15th level I wouldn't necessarily complain either. Just so long as it wasn't Pact Slots.
I genuinely wonder why people keep responding to posters that refuse to engage in good faith
Isn't it interesting that "not good faith" means "disagreeing with me"?
Pact Magic people are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on short rests. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on max-level slots. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on full caster progression. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on, basically, anything at all. Everything about Pact Magic MUST remain exactly the same as R5e, but they also somehow expect Wizards to fix it.
Excuse me: *how*? They can't change anything about it, and the class budget to account for increased spellcasting has to come from SOMEWHERE. You don't get a character with four level 9 spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and you don't get a character with twelve level 5 slots that recharge on a short rest. The devs will NEVER allow that.
Something. Has. To. Give.
Something. Has. To. Change.
So what are you willing to budge on, to solve the fact that warlocks are widely and commonly considered to have too little spellcasting per the game's head developer? What do you give up to get better spellcasting? What do you give up to get "more spells, more often"? Because warlocks NEED more spells, more often...but the Pact Magic crowd refuses to allow it.
Why?
Who wanted four 9th level spellslots? Who said we can't change anything about Pact Magic? Who said we can't budge on short rests vs long rests?
The reason people say you are not engaging "in good faith" is because you argue exclusively through strawman arguments.
And saying that "something has to give/the budget must come from somewhere" is disingenuous and not healthy way to look at RPG design. It is not like we are talking about the national budget here. Besides, show me what the Wizard core class is giving up to essentially steal the metamagic system from Sorcerers?
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
Action Surge absolutely is a primary resource just like Pact slots are for 5e Warlocks.
Who's saying not to give warlocks more spell slots?
Litetally all of you?
"Nooo short rests are awesome, keep warlock a short rest class!"
"Nooo you can't give warlocks lower-level slots, keep them nothing but max casts!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
Every time I poke my tits into a warlock thread, half a dozen people are screaming about Identity and how NOTHING CAN CHANGE OR WARLOCKS AREN'T WARLOCKS ANYMORE. And look - I'm one of the people who hates that psychic abilities are always blown off as just shittier spellcasting. Identity is important. It really is. But so is actually being feasible, and Pact Magic has had its chance to prove it's feasible. It has failed.
How long do we need to cling to a failed system?
Unrelated: I ******** hate* posting from my phone. Literal wurst. I have no idea how you people tolerate it, Sposta et al.
I have said they should both change Pact Magic to a long rest feature and give them more Pact Magic slots. I don’t understand your point. Exactly how many slots and at what levels? Not sure. But I don’t have to be sure, that’s what playtesting is for.
That's incorrect tho, since it'd mean Wizard would be behind Sorcerer in the potential amount of spells per-day, Arcane Recovery actually stops Wizards being sub-par in everything but versatility (due to more known spells vs. prepared spells) compared to Sorcerer, which in the next UA is a bigger issue since Wizard doesn't really have exclusive spells separate from Sorcerer any more. It is a key part in Wizard and Sorcerer being balanced.
And again, the issue with Pact Magic was that the number of slots was simply too low for too long, the fix used here in the UA is simply a nerf, yes it's more spell slots but it's lower levelled slots than Wizard or Sorcerer and that is an issue. There needs to be a good reason to cast spells, you are also having to sacrifice 1/2 of your highest levelled slots for Hex still anyway and now you don't even get those back on a short rest. When you get 3rd level slots at level 9 or 5th at 17, heck at 17 and 18, if you want your full powered hex, you don't get any other 5th levelled spells. in 5E, you get 5th level hex at level 9 and still have another 5th level slot left over and can get another 2 slots with a single short rest.
1) Wizards have always been behind Sorcerers in spells per day (and not just in 5e.) And they still are. Arcane Recovery does not make up for Font of Magic.
2) Versatility is extremely powerful for spellcasters. All those situational spells Wizards can afford to grab for one day and then swap out the next day, are much more difficult for a Sorcerer to use.
3) The UA is not a nerf. Warlocks can now make great use of spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs that would have been extremely painful to use Pact Slots on before, and they can still at most levels stay on the power curve like they did before. They also got several invocation taxes removed and baked into the new cantrips.
1. Arcane Recovery beats font of magic on spell slot recovery, only slightly but Arcane Recovery rounds up. Font of Magic you can sacrifice slots to regenerate points for recovering other slots but that is a costly way to do it. If you're talking about getting more total spells then it's possible with Font of Magic but they will be significantly lower levelled spells, using that method; yes you can sacrifice a 6th level spell slot to recover 3 1st level slots or 2 2nd level slots, usually not worth doing that however. I wouldn't consider that "beating" Arcane Recovery, when Font of Magic gets you a 3rd level spell slot, so does Arcane recovery, same with a 4th level spell slot. That you can then sacrifice a 2nd level spell slot and 3 1st levelled slots to create 1 3rd level spell slots, isn't good spell slot economy.
2. I'm not arguing against versatility, I did note that it's the only area Wizard would be beating sorcerer.
3. Only one invocation tax was really removed; however invocation taxes were certainly added, Mystic Arcanum is 4 invocations to recover what Warlock had in 5E at level 17 and all they got for that is a single more Mystic Arcanum slot. Book of Ancient Secrets is noted to have been absorbed into Book of Shadows but reading over the cantrip, this is not true. You can use it for any 1st level ritual but there is no way to get any ritual above 1st level like Book of Ancient Secrets gave. The only real tax removed was Thirsting Blade of Pact of the Blade, else wise no, the taxes really aren't gone; they have just integrated some of the hexblade fixes to pact of the blade, into pact weapon.
Meanwhile, Hex now does less damage, you need to get a 3rd level slot (level 9) to get similar damage out of hex that you'd get at level 5 in 5E, and would have surpassed at level 11 in 5E; that doesn't upgrade in the UA further until level 17, at which point it's kind of on par. It's quiet easy and simple to see that Warlock has in fact been nerfed.
Take away Arcane Recovery from a Wizard they still feel like a Wizard. I get that and completely agree.
Take away Sorcerers Sorcery Points and I don't think they will feel the same. And SP are in addition to their full progression spell slots. Yet they get a spell that gives them SP back (Sorcery Incarnate spell at 9th Level) and yet another ability (Sorcerous Restoration at 15th level) that gives 4 SP back if you roll initiative or take a Short Rest. So if you are out of SP (or low on SP) you can take a short rest and on your very first combat after the SR have a total of 8 SP regained (4 SR, 4 w/ Initiative) at 15th level. 9-12 SP if you cast Sorcery Incarnate at some point.
So why shouldn't a Warlock get similar features? Obviously, they would work a bit differently, but should be doable. I'm starting to like Ain_Undos's version more and more as it doesn't require the dreaded Short Rest to work.
Right - SP recovers on a long rest, all the way up to 15th level when you get a small portion of your total back on a short rest. So we agree then? 🤨
As for why not Warlock, by 15th level you should have plenty of invocations to give you more non-cantrip at-will goodies (read: leveled spells) than other casters get, but if Warlocks got something else at 15th level I wouldn't necessarily complain either. Just so long as it wasn't Pact Slots.
That's incorrect tho, since it'd mean Wizard would be behind Sorcerer in the potential amount of spells per-day, Arcane Recovery actually stops Wizards being sub-par in everything but versatility (due to more known spells vs. prepared spells) compared to Sorcerer, which in the next UA is a bigger issue since Wizard doesn't really have exclusive spells separate from Sorcerer any more. It is a key part in Wizard and Sorcerer being balanced.
And again, the issue with Pact Magic was that the number of slots was simply too low for too long, the fix used here in the UA is simply a nerf, yes it's more spell slots but it's lower levelled slots than Wizard or Sorcerer and that is an issue. There needs to be a good reason to cast spells, you are also having to sacrifice 1/2 of your highest levelled slots for Hex still anyway and now you don't even get those back on a short rest. When you get 3rd level slots at level 9 or 5th at 17, heck at 17 and 18, if you want your full powered hex, you don't get any other 5th levelled spells. in 5E, you get 5th level hex at level 9 and still have another 5th level slot left over and can get another 2 slots with a single short rest.
1) Wizards have always been behind Sorcerers in spells per day (and not just in 5e.) And they still are. Arcane Recovery does not make up for Font of Magic.
2) Versatility is extremely powerful for spellcasters. All those situational spells Wizards can afford to grab for one day and then swap out the next day, are much more difficult for a Sorcerer to use.
3) The UA is not a nerf. Warlocks can now make great use of spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, and Silvery Barbs that would have been extremely painful to use Pact Slots on before, and they can still at most levels stay on the power curve like they did before. They also got several invocation taxes removed and baked into the new cantrips.
Explain to me how not being able to upcast spells like Armor of Agathys at the same rate as before is not a nerf.
Short rests are an Obscure Variant Rule for a broad collection of tables. You **cannot** make an entire class that is almost entirely worthless if it does not get 5+ short rests a day. You just cannot.
Based on the encounter generation rules, the expectation is two short rests per day, which really doesn't work terribly well; in practice either it's every encounter or not at all.
4th edition, which is where the short rest concept came from, set short rests at 5 minutes and had some pretty severe limits on what kinds of effects could recover over a short rest. This meant that it was expected to take a short rest every encounter. That's a lot more practical to balance for and arrange to actually happen than the 1 hour rests in 5th, which are a sort of awkward middle ground.
...I play warlocks for Invocations and to a lesser extent the utility of certain pact boons. Up until this UA, I mostly considered their spellcasting a side-gig trick they never got to seriously use outside cantrips. In this UA they can actually cast spells.
Why should we settle for not casting spells when we could cast spells instead?
...
And for the nth time, WHO SAYS WE SHOULDN'T CAST SPELLS? Quote one person or stop saying it.
warlocks shouldn't cast shield and silvery barbs. the UA adding in spell level 1 and 2 slots just to bump up the casts-per-encounter-o-meter with reactions is gross. they're going to have to power balance around that later, aren't they? smudging the line between wiz/sorc and warlock and kicking a can down the road in the process. that's not a good way to meet the survey request to cast more spells. if someone wants to play a wizard with a devil/kraken/aboleth/etc for a mentor/loanshark/yandere love interest/etc then that's achievable in-story without adjusting whole classes. flavor is free.
Btw, what is the reasoning behind classes like Fighters still getting to keep things like Action Surge recharging on short rest, if short rests are so problematic?
Action Surge is not a primary resource. Neither are Channel X or even Bardic Inspiration. Spell slots are. They should not get the same treatment.
Action Surge absolutely is a primary resource just like Pact slots are for 5e Warlocks.
Ok to squash this action surge thing real quick. Fighters didnt have an issue with not having their action surge available because they could still attack like crazy and if they made action surge like they did with second wind starting with 2 uses and getting all the way up to 4 they didn't want to see fighters using multiple action surges in a single fight because it would blow the fight balance out. That is why some abilities like this remained on short rests.
1. the whole class wasn't super reliant on it to function, and 2. making the entire day budget available for a single fight destroys the balance of the fights.
Explain to me how not being able to upcast spells like Armor of Agathys at the same rate as before is not a nerf.
Which is going to save you more HP in the long run? 25 temporary hit points, or up to 7 castings of Shield? (or Absorb Elements? Or Silvery Barbs? Or...)
Action Surge absolutely is a primary resource just like Pact slots are for 5e Warlocks.
It's really not. A fighter who has used it and not had the chance to short rest is still very much a Fighter. A 5e Warlock who hasn't had the chance to rest is an Expert with a Cantrip.
If Pact Magic people can sneer at the UA warlock as "just a shitty goth ranger", I'm allowed my colorful recontextualizations of the shitty terrible arguments Pact Magic people are making.
Y'all want your terrible worthless Pact Magic? Make it an Invocation. "Pact Magic: select a spell of 1st level or higher from the arcane spell list, up to the level shown for your level in the table below. You gain a spell slot, which you can use to cast the selected spell or any other spells you know. if expended, you regain this spell slot when you complete a short or long rest. This spell slot increases in level as you reach new levels in this class, as shown in the table below. Whenever you gain a level, you can change the spell you selected with this Invocation. You can select this Invocation multiple times, but the number of times you select it cannot exceed your proficiency bonus."
There. Done. Terrible shitty Pact Magic is preserved for the Pact Magic crowd, and the rest of us can get on with actually being spellcasters and being able to actually use utility magic. You wanna go all bloody in on Pact Magic? Take the Invocation as often as your proficiency allows. The rest of us can nab it maybe once or twice when there's nothing better to grab or when one specific spell makes sense for a character, and just generally enjoy having an actually functional warlock.
1. Arcane Recovery beats font of magic on spell slot recovery, only slightly but Arcane Recovery rounds up. Font of Magic you can sacrifice slots to regenerate points for recovering other slots but that is a costly way to do it. If you're talking about getting more total spells then it's possible with Font of Magic but they will be significantly lower levelled spells, using that method; yes you can sacrifice a 6th level spell slot to recover 3 1st level slots or 2 2nd level slots, usually not worth doing that however. I wouldn't consider that "beating" Arcane Recovery, when Font of Magic gets you a 3rd level spell slot, so does Arcane recovery, same with a 4th level spell slot. That you can then sacrifice a 2nd level spell slot and 3 1st levelled slots to create 1 3rd level spell slots, isn't good spell slot economy.
2. I'm not arguing against versatility, I did note that it's the only area Wizard would be beating sorcerer.
3. Only one invocation tax was really removed; however invocation taxes were certainly added, Mystic Arcanum is 4 invocations to recover what Warlock had in 5E at level 17 and all they got for that is a single more Mystic Arcanum slot. Book of Ancient Secrets is noted to have been absorbed into Book of Shadows but reading over the cantrip, this is not true. You can use it for any 1st level ritual but there is no way to get any ritual above 1st level like Book of Ancient Secrets gave. The only real tax removed was Thirsting Blade of Pact of the Blade, else wise no, the taxes really aren't gone; they have just integrated some of the hexblade fixes to pact of the blade, into pact weapon.
Meanwhile, Hex now does less damage, you need to get a 3rd level slot (level 9) to get similar damage out of hex that you'd get at level 5 in 5E, and would have surpassed at level 11 in 5E; that doesn't upgrade in the UA further until level 17, at which point it's kind of on par. It's quiet easy and simple to see that Warlock has in fact been nerfed.
1) 12th level Wizard = two extra 3rd-level spell slots, must expend first and can only recover during short rest. 12th-level Sorcerer = two extra 4th-level slots, or two extra 3rd-level slots + a 1st level slot, as a bonus action, no rest needed, can be done in advance. Sorcerer wins both on quantity and quality.
2) What I'm saying is you're not weighing versatility heavily enough.
3) I'm fine with them getting one more invocation to cover off on MA. But I still disagree with the nerf claims. Some things are worse, but more things are better.
If Pact Magic people can sneer at the UA warlock as "just a shitty goth ranger", I'm allowed my colorful recontextualizations of the shitty terrible arguments Pact Magic people are making.
Y'all want your terrible worthless Pact Magic? Make it an Invocation. "Pact Magic: select a spell of 1st level or higher from the arcane spell list, up to the level shown for your level in the table below. You gain a spell slot, which you can use to cast the selected spell or any other spells you know. if expended, you regain this spell slot when you complete a short or long rest. This spell slot increases in level as you reach new levels in this class, as shown in the table below. Whenever you gain a level, you can change the spell you selected with this Invocation. You can select this Invocation multiple times, but the number of times you select it cannot exceed your proficiency bonus."
There. Done. Terrible shitty Pact Magic is preserved for the Pact Magic crowd, and the rest of us can get on with actually being spellcasters and being able to actually use utility magic. You wanna go all bloody in on Pact Magic? Take the Invocation as often as your proficiency allows. The rest of us can nab it maybe once or twice when there's nothing better to grab or when one specific spell makes sense for a character, and just generally enjoy having an actually functional warlock.
Honestly, do this + split mystic arcanum invocation back into just being mystic arcanum at 11-17.
I think a half caster with an invocation that gives me a 2nd level spell at 3 that resets on a short rest would be amazing. at 5 having 1 3rd level spell that resets on a short rest on top of a half caster, yes please. At 7 1 4th level spell that resets on a short rest, count me in. And of course at 9 having 1 5th that resets on short rest YAY.... and I can still have lower level slots for what ever else I need.
Take away Arcane Recovery from a Wizard they still feel like a Wizard. I get that and completely agree.
Take away Sorcerers Sorcery Points and I don't think they will feel the same. And SP are in addition to their full progression spell slots. Yet they get a spell that gives them SP back (Sorcery Incarnate spell at 9th Level) and yet another ability (Sorcerous Restoration at 15th level) that gives 4 SP back if you roll initiative or take a Short Rest. So if you are out of SP (or low on SP) you can take a short rest and on your very first combat after the SR have a total of 8 SP regained (4 SR, 4 w/ Initiative) at 15th level. 9-12 SP if you cast Sorcery Incarnate at some point.
So why shouldn't a Warlock get similar features? Obviously, they would work a bit differently, but should be doable. I'm starting to like Ain_Undos's version more and more as it doesn't require the dreaded Short Rest to work.
Right - SP recovers on a long rest, all the way up to 15th level when you get a small portion of your total back on a short rest. So we agree then? 🤨
As for why not Warlock, by 15th level you should have plenty of invocations to give you more non-cantrip at-will goodies (read: leveled spells) than other casters get, but if Warlocks got something else at 15th level I wouldn't necessarily complain either. Just so long as it wasn't Pact Slots.
Cool, you are wrong. But you are entitled to be wrong.
Great debate skills 🙄
You almost had it right. Yes, they come back on a Long Rest. But they have a 5th level spell, that they get at 9th level that gives them 1d4 SP back. And the 15th level feature that gives 4 back when you roll initiative or take a short rest. And they still have their full spellcasting progression, as a full caster, with all those spell slots in addition to those SP.
With a limited amount of Pact slots that come back on a LR, which isn't quite comparable to Sorcerers full spellcasting progression, having a feature, even if it doesn't come on until 5th level, would be serviceable.
You almost had it right. Yes, they come back on a Long Rest. But they have a 5th level spell, that they get at 9th level that gives them 1d4 SP back. And the 15th level feature that gives 4 back when you roll initiative or take a short rest. And they still have their full spellcasting progression, as a full caster, with all those spell slots in addition to those SP.
With a limited amount of Pact slots that come back on a LR, which isn't quite comparable to Sorcerers full spellcasting progression, having a feature, even if it doesn't come on until 5th level, would be serviceable.
1) I'm not saying Warlock progression should be comparable to Sorcerer progression. Despite some similarities, it never was. That's why Warlock gets a bunch of SLAs, armor proficiencies, and the best attack cantrip in the game.
2) For Incarnate, you know you can just... convert that 5th level slot into 5 SP right? And not break your concentration on something else in the process?
1. Just like 5e short rest recharge. At 3rd along with gaining your subclass you gain a feature called Draw Power.
Draw Power- You spend one minute concentrating (as if concentrating on a spell) on the source of your magical power replenishing some of it. At the end of the minute make a d20 test with your Spellcasting modifier DC 10+ the level of your pact magic spell slot. If the check is successful you regain 1 expended pact magic spell slot. You may use this feature a number of times equal to you pb and regain all uses when you complete a long rest.
This is both stronger and weaker than my earlier version since it relies on a check, but also allows for the 5e short rest recharge as well.
2. Far more complicated but offering more castings of spells by changing pact magic functionality. Instead of always casting at your highest level you get 1 slot that stays at each level as your pact magic grows. Also on a short rest you recover expended slots equal to your warlock level. So a level 6 warlock could recover a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot, or two 3rd level slots
1st one 1st level pact slot
2nd two 1st level pact slots
3rd one 1st level pact slot, one 2nd level pact slot
4th one 1st lvl slot, two 2nd lvl slots
5th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl
6th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, two 3rd lvl
7th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl
8th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, two 4th lvl
9th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, one 5th lvl
10th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, two 5th lvl
11th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, three 5th lvl
No change until 17
17th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd, one 4th, four 5th lvl
Note that at 11th level you can’t recharge all 3 of your 5th level slots on a single short rest as you only recharge up to 11 levels worth of spell slots. The same is true at 17th level.
It is possible to combine the Draw Power feature from my first option with my second option if only having a short rest recharge mechanic is too restrictive. Then draw power would only restore half your warlock level worth of pact magic slots
I wish they’d kept Pact Magic but reworked it. They could have changed it to recharge with long rests but given more Pactslots as a balance.
They could’ve changed it to spellpoints instead. Giving Warlocks one spellpoint per level. Perhaps skipping every 3rd or 4th level. A spell would cost one spellpoint per level. Max 5th level spells unlocked at full caster progression. Recharging on long rests.
Mystic Arcanum is a lousy substitute for Pact Magic. The MA spells are locked into one spell. The spellslot can’t be used for up-casting or other spells at later levels.
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It really isn't.
There isn't anything wrong with other classes getting to access spells used by other classes, but they shouldn't be better at it than the class the spell was designed for.
How exactly would Warlocks get better use out the spells I listed, when we progress towards them at half the rate of Wizards? You argument is absolutely pants of head bonkers, and just because you personally like a specific playstyle, you don't get to ignore everyone elses' opinion either, especially when you are in the clear minority.
And for the nth time, WHO SAYS WE SHOULDN'T CAST SPELLS? Quote one person or stop saying it.
Right - SP recovers on a long rest, all the way up to 15th level when you get a small portion of your total back on a short rest. So we agree then? 🤨
As for why not Warlock, by 15th level you should have plenty of invocations to give you more non-cantrip at-will goodies (read: leveled spells) than other casters get, but if Warlocks got something else at 15th level I wouldn't necessarily complain either. Just so long as it wasn't Pact Slots.
Great debate skills 🙄
Who wanted four 9th level spellslots? Who said we can't change anything about Pact Magic? Who said we can't budge on short rests vs long rests?
The reason people say you are not engaging "in good faith" is because you argue exclusively through strawman arguments.
And saying that "something has to give/the budget must come from somewhere" is disingenuous and not healthy way to look at RPG design. It is not like we are talking about the national budget here. Besides, show me what the Wizard core class is giving up to essentially steal the metamagic system from Sorcerers?
Action Surge absolutely is a primary resource just like Pact slots are for 5e Warlocks.
I have said they should both change Pact Magic to a long rest feature and give them more Pact Magic slots. I don’t understand your point. Exactly how many slots and at what levels? Not sure. But I don’t have to be sure, that’s what playtesting is for.
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1. Arcane Recovery beats font of magic on spell slot recovery, only slightly but Arcane Recovery rounds up. Font of Magic you can sacrifice slots to regenerate points for recovering other slots but that is a costly way to do it. If you're talking about getting more total spells then it's possible with Font of Magic but they will be significantly lower levelled spells, using that method; yes you can sacrifice a 6th level spell slot to recover 3 1st level slots or 2 2nd level slots, usually not worth doing that however. I wouldn't consider that "beating" Arcane Recovery, when Font of Magic gets you a 3rd level spell slot, so does Arcane recovery, same with a 4th level spell slot. That you can then sacrifice a 2nd level spell slot and 3 1st levelled slots to create 1 3rd level spell slots, isn't good spell slot economy.
2. I'm not arguing against versatility, I did note that it's the only area Wizard would be beating sorcerer.
3. Only one invocation tax was really removed; however invocation taxes were certainly added, Mystic Arcanum is 4 invocations to recover what Warlock had in 5E at level 17 and all they got for that is a single more Mystic Arcanum slot. Book of Ancient Secrets is noted to have been absorbed into Book of Shadows but reading over the cantrip, this is not true. You can use it for any 1st level ritual but there is no way to get any ritual above 1st level like Book of Ancient Secrets gave. The only real tax removed was Thirsting Blade of Pact of the Blade, else wise no, the taxes really aren't gone; they have just integrated some of the hexblade fixes to pact of the blade, into pact weapon.
Meanwhile, Hex now does less damage, you need to get a 3rd level slot (level 9) to get similar damage out of hex that you'd get at level 5 in 5E, and would have surpassed at level 11 in 5E; that doesn't upgrade in the UA further until level 17, at which point it's kind of on par. It's quiet easy and simple to see that Warlock has in fact been nerfed.
Why should I debate someone who constantly lies about what others are saying.
Explain to me how not being able to upcast spells like Armor of Agathys at the same rate as before is not a nerf.
Based on the encounter generation rules, the expectation is two short rests per day, which really doesn't work terribly well; in practice either it's every encounter or not at all.
4th edition, which is where the short rest concept came from, set short rests at 5 minutes and had some pretty severe limits on what kinds of effects could recover over a short rest. This meant that it was expected to take a short rest every encounter. That's a lot more practical to balance for and arrange to actually happen than the 1 hour rests in 5th, which are a sort of awkward middle ground.
warlocks shouldn't cast shield and silvery barbs. the UA adding in spell level 1 and 2 slots just to bump up the casts-per-encounter-o-meter with reactions is gross. they're going to have to power balance around that later, aren't they? smudging the line between wiz/sorc and warlock and kicking a can down the road in the process. that's not a good way to meet the survey request to cast more spells. if someone wants to play a wizard with a devil/kraken/aboleth/etc for a mentor/loanshark/yandere love interest/etc then that's achievable in-story without adjusting whole classes. flavor is free.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Ok to squash this action surge thing real quick. Fighters didnt have an issue with not having their action surge available because they could still attack like crazy and if they made action surge like they did with second wind starting with 2 uses and getting all the way up to 4 they didn't want to see fighters using multiple action surges in a single fight because it would blow the fight balance out. That is why some abilities like this remained on short rests.
1. the whole class wasn't super reliant on it to function, and 2. making the entire day budget available for a single fight destroys the balance of the fights.
Which is going to save you more HP in the long run? 25 temporary hit points, or up to 7 castings of Shield? (or Absorb Elements? Or Silvery Barbs? Or...)
It's really not. A fighter who has used it and not had the chance to short rest is still very much a Fighter. A 5e Warlock who hasn't had the chance to rest is an Expert with a Cantrip.
If Pact Magic people can sneer at the UA warlock as "just a shitty goth ranger", I'm allowed my colorful recontextualizations of the shitty terrible arguments Pact Magic people are making.
Y'all want your terrible worthless Pact Magic? Make it an Invocation. "Pact Magic: select a spell of 1st level or higher from the arcane spell list, up to the level shown for your level in the table below. You gain a spell slot, which you can use to cast the selected spell or any other spells you know. if expended, you regain this spell slot when you complete a short or long rest. This spell slot increases in level as you reach new levels in this class, as shown in the table below. Whenever you gain a level, you can change the spell you selected with this Invocation. You can select this Invocation multiple times, but the number of times you select it cannot exceed your proficiency bonus."
There. Done. Terrible shitty Pact Magic is preserved for the Pact Magic crowd, and the rest of us can get on with actually being spellcasters and being able to actually use utility magic. You wanna go all bloody in on Pact Magic? Take the Invocation as often as your proficiency allows. The rest of us can nab it maybe once or twice when there's nothing better to grab or when one specific spell makes sense for a character, and just generally enjoy having an actually functional warlock.
Please do not contact or message me.
1) 12th level Wizard = two extra 3rd-level spell slots, must expend first and can only recover during short rest. 12th-level Sorcerer = two extra 4th-level slots, or two extra 3rd-level slots + a 1st level slot, as a bonus action, no rest needed, can be done in advance. Sorcerer wins both on quantity and quality.
2) What I'm saying is you're not weighing versatility heavily enough.
3) I'm fine with them getting one more invocation to cover off on MA. But I still disagree with the nerf claims. Some things are worse, but more things are better.
Honestly, do this + split mystic arcanum invocation back into just being mystic arcanum at 11-17.
I think a half caster with an invocation that gives me a 2nd level spell at 3 that resets on a short rest would be amazing. at 5 having 1 3rd level spell that resets on a short rest on top of a half caster, yes please. At 7 1 4th level spell that resets on a short rest, count me in. And of course at 9 having 1 5th that resets on short rest YAY.... and I can still have lower level slots for what ever else I need.
You almost had it right. Yes, they come back on a Long Rest. But they have a 5th level spell, that they get at 9th level that gives them 1d4 SP back. And the 15th level feature that gives 4 back when you roll initiative or take a short rest. And they still have their full spellcasting progression, as a full caster, with all those spell slots in addition to those SP.
With a limited amount of Pact slots that come back on a LR, which isn't quite comparable to Sorcerers full spellcasting progression, having a feature, even if it doesn't come on until 5th level, would be serviceable.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
1) I'm not saying Warlock progression should be comparable to Sorcerer progression. Despite some similarities, it never was. That's why Warlock gets a bunch of SLAs, armor proficiencies, and the best attack cantrip in the game.
2) For Incarnate, you know you can just... convert that 5th level slot into 5 SP right? And not break your concentration on something else in the process?
Huh. I had failed to notice just how stupid sorcerous restoration is. I can just predict the shenanigans.
Joe the Sorcerer: hm, I'm still down sorcery points. Hey DM, if I punch Bob, that means we roll initiative, right?
(one round of combat later, in which Bob takes negligible because Joe has +4 to hit and does 1 point of damage). I guess we'll hug and make up.
Repeat until Joe has full sorcery points.
I have two more quick fixes for pact magic.
1. Just like 5e short rest recharge. At 3rd along with gaining your subclass you gain a feature called Draw Power.
This is both stronger and weaker than my earlier version since it relies on a check, but also allows for the 5e short rest recharge as well.
2. Far more complicated but offering more castings of spells by changing pact magic functionality. Instead of always casting at your highest level you get 1 slot that stays at each level as your pact magic grows. Also on a short rest you recover expended slots equal to your warlock level. So a level 6 warlock could recover a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot, or two 3rd level slots
Note that at 11th level you can’t recharge all 3 of your 5th level slots on a single short rest as you only recharge up to 11 levels worth of spell slots. The same is true at 17th level.
It is possible to combine the Draw Power feature from my first option with my second option if only having a short rest recharge mechanic is too restrictive. Then draw power would only restore half your warlock level worth of pact magic slots
I think the half-caster route is lazy.
I wish they’d kept Pact Magic but reworked it. They could have changed it to recharge with long rests but given more Pactslots as a balance.
They could’ve changed it to spellpoints instead. Giving Warlocks one spellpoint per level. Perhaps skipping every 3rd or 4th level. A spell would cost one spellpoint per level. Max 5th level spells unlocked at full caster progression. Recharging on long rests.
Mystic Arcanum is a lousy substitute for Pact Magic. The MA spells are locked into one spell. The spellslot can’t be used for up-casting or other spells at later levels.