The issue with STR monks is how STR and DEX are (un)balanced in Dnd.
DEX is used for an attacking stat, non-heavy armor, initiative, and a common save. If a character is not using DEX for attacking, they still consider putting a few points in it for the AC, initiative, and save.
STR is used for an attacking stat, heavy armor, heavy weapons, Grapple/Shove, jumping, carrying capacity, and the occasional save against being knocked prone by a beast. If a character is not using STR for attacking, there is not much mechanical reason to put points in it aside from role playing. So it is a common dump stat. Barbarian is the only class that is typically built with significant DEX and STR.
This imbalance is exasperated by Monk's multi-ability dependency. Monks need high DEX and WIS for AC, DC, and damage. That leaves a little wiggle room for CON and barely anything for STR in a character concept. Perhaps the only practical fix is an extra ASI at level 10 to alleviate the MAD.
This imbalance is exasperated by Monk's multi-ability dependency. Monks need high DEX and WIS for AC, DC, and damage. That leaves a little wiggle room for CON and barely anything for STR in a character concept. Perhaps the only practical fix is an extra ASI at level 10 to alleviate the MAD.
Eh, the practical fix is to directly alleviate the MAD by making it not MAD. Change the formula for unarmored AC and the rest can largely take care of itself. The simplest option is to remove attributes completely from AC (AC is, say, 16 + Monk Level/5), as that means you can just decide that you want to be a strength monk or whatever.
This imbalance is exasperated by Monk's multi-ability dependency. Monks need high DEX and WIS for AC, DC, and damage. That leaves a little wiggle room for CON and barely anything for STR in a character concept. Perhaps the only practical fix is an extra ASI at level 10 to alleviate the MAD.
Eh, the practical fix is to directly alleviate the MAD by making it not MAD. Change the formula for unarmored AC and the rest can largely take care of itself. The simplest option is to remove attributes completely from AC (AC is, say, 16 + Monk Level/5), as that means you can just decide that you want to be a strength monk or whatever.
Exactly. Though monk is, and always was, a Dex class, just like barbarian is a Str class. Monk should be a pure dex class, that alone would solve a great deal of class' issues.
This imbalance is exasperated by Monk's multi-ability dependency. Monks need high DEX and WIS for AC, DC, and damage. That leaves a little wiggle room for CON and barely anything for STR in a character concept. Perhaps the only practical fix is an extra ASI at level 10 to alleviate the MAD.
Eh, the practical fix is to directly alleviate the MAD by making it not MAD. Change the formula for unarmored AC and the rest can largely take care of itself. The simplest option is to remove attributes completely from AC (AC is, say, 16 + Monk Level/5), as that means you can just decide that you want to be a strength monk or whatever.
Be careful, when you propose similar ideas you must also think about multiclassing. This proposal is not good by basic standards. It would bring too great an imbalance.
I would be more inclined to propose an Unarmored Defense that lets you choose WIS or CON and decrease the techniques that require DC.
Another but less standard solution is to use WIS to calculate the hit points of the monk class. But I am not very convinced about this proposal.
FoB does not just block other options, it rules over your main action. If you commit to an aggresive turn, then yes, you can then take one of the 3 D's (FoB, SoW and PD), but if you are not attacking, you don't have all options of the 3 D's, you have 2 options (SoW and PD). As much as I'd like FoB to be independant, even more so for the Open Hand, I'll be honest here, Open Hand Technique should apply to ALL unarmed attacks. Period. But, what about balance? In 5e, a monk would be trading damage for control, it'd go from dealing a d8 (or d10 if using Tasha's) to the MA die + the rider effect they try to attempt, and FoB is still encouraged to use since it'd mean more chances to apply OHT.
Umm, you have all three D's when you don't commit all out to attack: Dodge, Disengage, and Dash. SoW gives you both Dash and Disengage, and PD gives you Dodge. And, as I believe I pointed out already, Open Hand is about supporting other players more than just setting someone up for your own combo move. But, honestly, I really truly don't care one way or the other, because the class functions well either way. And if your argument is that a subclass feature is undercut by a main class feature, then that's just a casualty of design priority; first they hash out how the main class features work, and then they build the subclass features based on those. Your whole argument isn't "this is bad", it just seems to be "this is less awesome than I want it to be".
And your whole argument is "monks are fine nothing to see here" .well as you can see you are only one of many opinions.
we will have to see which direction they go .
I actually hope that you are able to build the kind you would like .
so far after removing feats nerfing the MA die it doesnt look good. Really hoping for some more options next ua. I think maybe we could do orders where you can choose ss or more damage or another option, control is easy especially for casters so id drop ss in a heart beat for more offensive options .
I love monk, just the kind of monk I would like to play isnt able to be crafted yet . Honestly had they just let simple weapons scale with your ma die and still have access to tashas changes I would have probably been happy.
cause I know not to expect too much, Afterall we aren't paladins lol . if it goes live like this. I just have to pray a subclass I like ,gets boosted. Kensei are currently my favorite monk and the one that can do the most damage overall, since their features work with weapons.
Be careful, when you propose similar ideas you must also think about multiclassing. This proposal is not good by basic standards. It would bring too great an imbalance.
"You can achieve an unarmored AC of 16 with a level dip" is not in fact a significant balance problem.
Or that use an offhand weapon with the Nick property. Which is to say, basically zero rogues need the Mobile feat. It's a decent feat, but quite thoroughly optional.
Sorry I forgot to specify that I was talking about the 5e Rogue, sure, with Nick, it's no longer necessary to get Mobile, I agree.
Umm, you have all three D's when you don't commit all out to attack: Dodge, Disengage, and Dash. SoW gives you both Dash and Disengage, and PD gives you Dodge. And, as I believe I pointed out already, Open Hand is about supporting other players more than just setting someone up for your own combo move. But, honestly, I really truly don't care one way or the other, because the class functions well either way. And if your argument is that a subclass feature is undercut by a main class feature, then that's just a casualty of design priority; first they hash out how the main class features work, and then they build the subclass features based on those. Your whole argument isn't "this is bad", it just seems to be "this is less awesome than I want it to be".
Oh, when I read 3 D's I thought you were talking about the 3 Discipline options, not the Dodge, Disengage and Dash, my mistake. The class works in 5e, sure, I never said it didn't, nor am I complaining about 'power level' or "damage below the average", heck, I have yet to lash out to the UA6 version (of the base class), I think it works mostly the same and I'm fine with that; btw, I don't mind Stunning Strike's new restrictions that much, since (as I mentioned previously) I only use it frequently on Wis monks, and since the only one with mandatory Wis in this UA is Hand, then I'm not really troubled by it (that is to say, I'm more than happy with the new Shadow and Elements, and I hope that at least Shadow gets printed as is).
I'm not asking for Open Hand to be 'more awesome', I'd like it to be a little bit less imposing on the player's turn choices.
Honestly if people are that worried about the DC issue, they could maybe break DCs up into "Martial Arts" saves that use DEX and "Ki/Discipline" saves that use WIS. Granted, Stunning Strike would definitely still be one that uses WIS, as would most of the subclass features outside of Hand, so I'm not sure this would actually do much. Weapon masteries account for some of this as well, though that of course undercuts the ability to be a pure unarmed build. Hmm, they could always have Martial Arts say something like "After every long rest, choose one Mastery property you have from a Simple Melee weapon. You can apply that property to your unarmed attacks." That gives you four options to choose from, including giving your next attack advantage or giving the target disadvantage. Flex and Nick don't work because Unarmed Attacks are neither Versatile nor Light, but Flex is not exactly a popular one to being with, I believe, and Nick is already potentially a bit broken on a Monk.
I believe that the new unarmed strikes rules (the ones available to all classes, not just the monk) are the thing that's preventing weapon masteries to work on unarmed strikes. That being said, monks should be able to use the new unarmed properties with Dex instead of Strength.
Or that use an offhand weapon with the Nick property. Which is to say, basically zero rogues need the Mobile feat. It's a decent feat, but quite thoroughly optional.
Sorry I forgot to specify that I was talking about the 5e Rogue, sure, with Nick, it's no longer necessary to get Mobile, I agree.
It was not particularly necessary for the 5e rogue either -- sure, you're not super durable in melee combat, but you only needed to use your bonus action if your main hand attack missed, and the occasional turn being in the front line mostly just meant a more even damage spread, which is generally beneficial to the party.
Man I had forgotten the tasha optional abilities for monk existed. I don't feel like many of them are worth the cost but they are going in the right direction.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I believe that the new unarmed strikes rules (the ones available to all classes, not just the monk) are the thing that's preventing weapon masteries to work on unarmed strikes. That being said, monks should be able to use the new unarmed properties with Dex instead of Strength.
You could already Grapple or Shove as a melee attack, though. All they did is change it from a contested Athletics roll to a save.
It was a melee attack, but (before OneDnD) it wasn't an unarmed strike, so you could attempt it once per turn with every class (or more if you had Extra Attack), but with the new rules monks can use Martial Arts or FoB to trigger it more time per turn (I mean, you still need a free hand unless I'm mistaken), although it would require a Strength-based monk to pull it off efficiently.
It was a melee attack, but (before OneDnD) it wasn't an unarmed strike, so you could attempt it once per turn with every class (or more if you had Extra Attack), but with the new rules monks can use Martial Arts or FoB to trigger it more time per turn (I mean, you still need a free hand unless I'm mistaken), although it would require a Strength-based monk to pull it off efficiently.
It was always just an option to replace a melee attack roll. No one has more or less opportunity to make the attempts, basically all they've done is rebalance in the target's favor (there's a lot more blocks with STR or DEX saves than with Athletics or Acrobatics).
It was always just an option to replace a melee attack roll.
It wasn't an option to replace an unarmed strike before, and FoB explicitly grants unarmed strikes.
Yes, it was. Let me copy the relevant rules.
Grappling
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
These are straight from the PHB; when you're making a melee attack roll, you can choose at the time you would make the roll to Grapple or Shove instead. They're not separate actions.
These are straight from the PHB; when you're making a melee attack roll, you can choose at the time you would make the roll to Grapple or Shove instead. They're not separate actions.
Perhaps you should reread your own quote. They are only options when you take the attack action and may only replace one of the attacks granted by the attack action. The way they're worded in the playtest is that they can replace any unarmed strike, even when that strike is not granted by the attack action. Thus, they can be used in a flurry of blows, or on an opportunity attack.
"damage below the average "oh I and many others are going to harp until I can get my damage . it isn't just damage, sure high ki cost low ac and a bunch other things like no access to feats are big problem.
but the core of why they suck is the damage and I know some people will say go Kensei ss, and ya that does ok damage but that build wont work in the next edition, so its a hallow argument.
its actually unbalanced how much other martials get over monks it aint right and they ought to fix it . always telling me it isn't about damage, ok cool then, lets let fighter and barb come down to monks level, or let monk bring themselves up .since its no big deal.
to me the person who doesn't want monks to do completive dpr doesn't want a balanced game. Especially now that ss is once a turn only( wich is fine if you buff the dmage and help other weaknesses) you have to ignore how much of a gamble it is and ignore that most monks are mad and if they care about damage their wisdom wont be quite as high. honestly its a slap in the face.
The issue with STR monks is how STR and DEX are (un)balanced in Dnd.
DEX is used for an attacking stat, non-heavy armor, initiative, and a common save. If a character is not using DEX for attacking, they still consider putting a few points in it for the AC, initiative, and save.
STR is used for an attacking stat, heavy armor, heavy weapons, Grapple/Shove, jumping, carrying capacity, and the occasional save against being knocked prone by a beast. If a character is not using STR for attacking, there is not much mechanical reason to put points in it aside from role playing. So it is a common dump stat. Barbarian is the only class that is typically built with significant DEX and STR.
This imbalance is exasperated by Monk's multi-ability dependency. Monks need high DEX and WIS for AC, DC, and damage. That leaves a little wiggle room for CON and barely anything for STR in a character concept. Perhaps the only practical fix is an extra ASI at level 10 to alleviate the MAD.
Eh, the practical fix is to directly alleviate the MAD by making it not MAD. Change the formula for unarmored AC and the rest can largely take care of itself. The simplest option is to remove attributes completely from AC (AC is, say, 16 + Monk Level/5), as that means you can just decide that you want to be a strength monk or whatever.
Exactly. Though monk is, and always was, a Dex class, just like barbarian is a Str class. Monk should be a pure dex class, that alone would solve a great deal of class' issues.
Your concept of 'always' is ... rather recent (basically, since 5th edition...).
that wasn't my angle they were just better in relation to other martials . still behind but closer then now .
Be careful, when you propose similar ideas you must also think about multiclassing. This proposal is not good by basic standards. It would bring too great an imbalance.
I would be more inclined to propose an Unarmored Defense that lets you choose WIS or CON and decrease the techniques that require DC.
Another but less standard solution is to use WIS to calculate the hit points of the monk class. But I am not very convinced about this proposal.
And your whole argument is "monks are fine nothing to see here" .well as you can see you are only one of many opinions.
we will have to see which direction they go .
I actually hope that you are able to build the kind you would like .
so far after removing feats nerfing the MA die it doesnt look good. Really hoping for some more options next ua. I think maybe we could do orders where you can choose ss or more damage or another option, control is easy especially for casters so id drop ss in a heart beat for more offensive options .
I love monk, just the kind of monk I would like to play isnt able to be crafted yet . Honestly had they just let simple weapons scale with your ma die and still have access to tashas changes I would have probably been happy.
cause I know not to expect too much, Afterall we aren't paladins lol . if it goes live like this. I just have to pray a subclass I like ,gets boosted. Kensei are currently my favorite monk and the one that can do the most damage overall, since their features work with weapons.
some more asis at least would not hurt, for sure.
"You can achieve an unarmored AC of 16 with a level dip" is not in fact a significant balance problem.
Sorry I forgot to specify that I was talking about the 5e Rogue, sure, with Nick, it's no longer necessary to get Mobile, I agree.
Oh, when I read 3 D's I thought you were talking about the 3 Discipline options, not the Dodge, Disengage and Dash, my mistake. The class works in 5e, sure, I never said it didn't, nor am I complaining about 'power level' or "damage below the average", heck, I have yet to lash out to the UA6 version (of the base class), I think it works mostly the same and I'm fine with that; btw, I don't mind Stunning Strike's new restrictions that much, since (as I mentioned previously) I only use it frequently on Wis monks, and since the only one with mandatory Wis in this UA is Hand, then I'm not really troubled by it (that is to say, I'm more than happy with the new Shadow and Elements, and I hope that at least Shadow gets printed as is).
I'm not asking for Open Hand to be 'more awesome', I'd like it to be a little bit less imposing on the player's turn choices.
I believe that the new unarmed strikes rules (the ones available to all classes, not just the monk) are the thing that's preventing weapon masteries to work on unarmed strikes. That being said, monks should be able to use the new unarmed properties with Dex instead of Strength.
It was not particularly necessary for the 5e rogue either -- sure, you're not super durable in melee combat, but you only needed to use your bonus action if your main hand attack missed, and the occasional turn being in the front line mostly just meant a more even damage spread, which is generally beneficial to the party.
Man I had forgotten the tasha optional abilities for monk existed. I don't feel like many of them are worth the cost but they are going in the right direction.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
You could already Grapple or Shove as a melee attack, though. All they did is change it from a contested Athletics roll to a save.
It was a melee attack, but (before OneDnD) it wasn't an unarmed strike, so you could attempt it once per turn with every class (or more if you had Extra Attack), but with the new rules monks can use Martial Arts or FoB to trigger it more time per turn (I mean, you still need a free hand unless I'm mistaken), although it would require a Strength-based monk to pull it off efficiently.
It was always just an option to replace a melee attack roll. No one has more or less opportunity to make the attempts, basically all they've done is rebalance in the target's favor (there's a lot more blocks with STR or DEX saves than with Athletics or Acrobatics).
It wasn't an option to replace an unarmed strike before, and FoB explicitly grants unarmed strikes.
Yes, it was. Let me copy the relevant rules.
These are straight from the PHB; when you're making a melee attack roll, you can choose at the time you would make the roll to Grapple or Shove instead. They're not separate actions.
Perhaps you should reread your own quote. They are only options when you take the attack action and may only replace one of the attacks granted by the attack action. The way they're worded in the playtest is that they can replace any unarmed strike, even when that strike is not granted by the attack action. Thus, they can be used in a flurry of blows, or on an opportunity attack.
"damage below the average "oh I and many others are going to harp until I can get my damage . it isn't just damage, sure high ki cost low ac and a bunch other things like no access to feats are big problem.
but the core of why they suck is the damage and I know some people will say go Kensei ss, and ya that does ok damage but that build wont work in the next edition, so its a hallow argument.
its actually unbalanced how much other martials get over monks it aint right and they ought to fix it . always telling me it isn't about damage, ok cool then, lets let fighter and barb come down to monks level, or let monk bring themselves up .since its no big deal.
to me the person who doesn't want monks to do completive dpr doesn't want a balanced game. Especially now that ss is once a turn only( wich is fine if you buff the dmage and help other weaknesses) you have to ignore how much of a gamble it is and ignore that most monks are mad and if they care about damage their wisdom wont be quite as high. honestly its a slap in the face.
No, it really isn't. Monks have quite good damage until tier 3 -- unless their damage is reduced to zero by reducing their hit points to zero.
by 11 there damage is abysmal, but from level 5 onward its subpar.