My newest suggestion is to move Patient Defense from the Ki/Discipline feature at level 2 and make it part of the Unarmored Defense Feature at level 1. What this does it make PD not cost Ki/DP and gives you a choice from 1st level forward of how to use your bonus action. Every turn is a question of do I use this for Offense or Defense. This small change takes Monk from a bad skirmisher to a possible dodge tank front liner. That fits the monks fantasy better for me.
I considered something like that for my attempt at a revised monk, but the problem with making patient defense a free bonus action is that the bonus action is only a high cost for a bonus action dependent class; it'd be far too good for multiclassing, as any class that doesn't need a bonus action for something else is made instantly more durable with a single level dip.
We already have one unarmed strike as a bonus action, and I think a single Dash or Disengage should become a free bonus action as well, then have doing both at the same time be the costed form. This gives us easy access to slightly more damage or significantly more mobility.
Really what Monk needs most is more options because that's my biggest problem with Stunning Strike; at higher levels it's all the Monk wants to do. But the reason things like battlemaster and spellcasters are so fun is because you have choices in what you do round to round, you have a lot of options to adapt, interfere and assist etc. Monks need more of this; fighters should be DPR, Monks should be versatile skirmishers.
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My newest suggestion is to move Patient Defense from the Ki/Discipline feature at level 2 and make it part of the Unarmored Defense Feature at level 1. What this does it make PD not cost Ki/DP and gives you a choice from 1st level forward of how to use your bonus action. Every turn is a question of do I use this for Offense or Defense. This small change takes Monk from a bad skirmisher to a possible dodge tank front liner. That fits the monks fantasy better for me.
I considered something like that for my attempt at a revised monk, but the problem with making patient defense a free bonus action is that the bonus action is only a high cost for a bonus action dependent class; it'd be far too good for multiclassing, as any class that doesn't need a bonus action for something else is made instantly more durable with a single level dip.
We already have one unarmed strike as a bonus action, and I think a single Dash or Disengage should become a free bonus action as well, then have doing both at the same time be the costed form. This gives us easy access to slightly more damage or significantly more mobility.
Really what Monk needs most is more options because that's my biggest problem with Stunning Strike; at higher levels it's all the Monk wants to do. But the reason things like battlemaster and spellcasters are so fun is because you have choices in what you do round to round, you have a lot of options to adapt, interfere and assist etc. Monks need more of this; fighters should be DPR, Monks should be versatile skirmishers.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though. Also I don’t imagine Monks as skirmishers.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
But the monk's Unarmed Strike (via Martial Arts) can benefit from Topple and Vex.
You're talking about a minimum of four sets of calculations for each applicable mastery (Push, Sap, Topple, and Vex), and we're still only looking at...personal DPR? How do you factor in the increased survivability of following a Vex with a Sap, rather than leveraging advantage for damage? Hell, you'd have to include the odds of having advantage on certain attacks to be throrough about it.
This is why white room theorycrafting is utterly useless. It doesn't care about everyone else this one character is adventuring with.
I said a few pages ago that I'm not doing that unless someone can give me a good reason to. I don't care about squeezing every last point of damage out of a turn because damage isn't everything. So long as two classes are at least in the same ballpark, they're fine.
I'll point out too that while the Monk Bad crowd treats personal DPR as the sole metric of character viability, the majority of such folks treat Stunning Strike as the only feature Monks have worth spending their points on, even though such a feature serves to benefit the party as a whole more than it benefits the Monk solely.
It goes in lockstep with the many times I've pointed out that a Monk's multiple uses of Flurry of Blows per short rest ultimately exceeds the damage the Fighter does with Action Surge, only to be told by such "theorycrafters" that such is wrong—after I did the math in the very post they reply to. They insist that the Monk has poor damage, while insisting that a Monk has to be played in a manner that limits its damage output and blows through its resources so that other players have to expend less of their own resources.
FFS.
You do read what I put, right? At the levels monk generally outclasses fighter in terms of damage (1-4), action surge is better than flurry of blows, because it’s a higher damage attack that you get, and it doesn’t draw on a shared resource pool for fighter’s other abilities. Unlike flurry of blows, which does. I never said action surge was always more damage than flurry of blows.
Also, I’m pretty sure in my level-by-level post I pointed out fighter’s better AC, HP, and oftentimes mobility (due to their ability to take feats while the monk is desperate for ASIs), and that’s just in the base class. One of my favourite fighter subclasses is Psi Warrior. That damage reduction and, at level 7, fly speed, is great. And I am firmly in the Evil Minmaxer and Monk Bad crowd. Cue the ad hominem.
Also, stunning strike.. it is the only feature worth spending, because everything else pales in comparison. If it succeeds against a BBEG or single tough enemy that the whole party is fighting, it gives the WHOLE PARTY an extra turn. Very little is going to survive that. The only equivalent spell I can find is psychic lance. Which is 4th level, and as a result when spellcasters can do that once, monks can do that over and over again. Stunning strike is REALLY REALLY GOOD. Everything else is kinda meh.
hold monster, hold person, (actually gives guaranteed crits) staggering smite UA, restrained on any enemy without ranged attacks, a bunch of summons. Then you got sleep, which only allows one big hit,
In terms of fight enders, dominate person, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, tashaa hideous laughter.
Note that something waking up or breaking out after their turn, doesnt really matter much.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
unarmored defense is bad without high investment in dex and wis.
At those levels, action surge is better than flurry of blows. It gives you a higher damage attack compared to flurry of blows giving you one extra monk punch, and it doesn’t draw from the same resource as all your other options. I’m not sure you even read my post. Those feats are always on. Sure, in the first combat of the day, with no magic items whatsoever, with the fighter using an abysmal build, monk edges out fighter. If it uses all its ki in that combat. Feats are always on. Ki is not.
Sigh... Let's assume Fighter has a d12 weapon, because why not.
Level 2: Fighter does 2-24 + 1-12 over 2 turns. Monk does 4-28 + 2-12 over 2 turns. Level 3: Fighter does 3-36 + 1-12 over 3 turns. Monk does 6-42 + 3-18 over 3 turns. Level 4: Fighter does 4-48 + 1-12 over 4 turns. Monk does 8-56 + 4-24 over 4 turns. Level 5: Fighter does 10-120 + 2-24 over 5 turns. Monk does 15-120 + 5-40 over 5 turns. Level 6: Fighter does 12-144 + 2-24 over 6 turns. Monk does 18-144 + 6-48 over 6 turns. ......... Level 11: Fighter does 33-396 + 3-36 over 11 turns. Monk does 33-330 + 11-110 over 11 turns.
This is without modifiers, but it highlights the fundamental flaw in your logic. Action Surge is an ability you get one use of per short rest. It's a big lump of extra damage, but it applies to only one turn. Flurry of Blows is an individually-smaller hit, but that the Monk gains more uses every level means that the damage it adds builds up to more than what Action Surge puts out.
And yes, Monks have other point-using features. Like, say:
Astral Self (keeps Monks out of OA range and boosts damage at 11 and 17)
Ascendant Dragon (AoE damage equal to multiple rolls of Martial Arts dice, while only taking one attack from the Attack action)
Mercy (Hands of Harm, which is effectively an extra auto-hit of Flurry of Blows, auto-poisons at 6, and is free with FoB at 11)
And Monks have plenty of features that still apply when they're out of points. They still have increased mobility without ki. They still have their bonus strike without ki.
Average chance for hitting a normal monster during each tier of play is about 60% for martial characters.
A level 2 Fighter with a d12 weapon has about 60% chance to hit and if they do, it's for an average of 6.5 + Strength mod. for a Fighter with 16 Strength that's going to be 9.8 per hit after accounting for crit chance. If they add Action Surge, the average damage would be about 7.1 DPR
A level 2 Monk (UA6) that uses its action and bonus action to attack with a Quarterstaff would be doing about 4.5+3 damage (+0.225 Crit) per hit and the Bonus Action US for 3.5+3+0.175 per hit. That's about 8.4 average DPR after accounting for crit. If you throw in FOB that's about 12.66 total average DPR after accounting for crits. Certainly a good score for the Monk at level 2.
After level 4, the math starts to change.
Level 6 Fighter (UA7): Strength is now likely to be 20. With a d12 weapon, they do 60% of d12+5 + d12+5 per action which equates to 11.5 average damage per hit. If a Champion fighter, this increases to 12.1 after accounting for increased Critical Hit chance. At 60% chance to hit that's 14.58 average DPR. For an Action Surge, this goes up to 29.2 AVERAGE DPR after accounting for Champion Critical Hits.
Level 6 Monk (UA6): Dex is capped at 18. Armed or Unarmed Monks will be capped at a d8 damage die. Per attack action that will be d8+4(+0.225 crit) x2, +d8+4+0.225 again for the bonus unarmed strike. The result: 15.7 DPR without FOB, 20.94 DPR with FOB. We are already starting to lose ground.
Level 12 fighter (UA7): We are going to slightly change the math here: our Fighter has received a +1 Greatsword and taken the Great Weapon fighting Style (UA5) as part of a feat. They also have 2 extra attacks. With the rerolls on 1s and 2s for the Greatsword, the average damage per hit is now 7+1(+1 reroll effect)+5(+0.9 crit). That's 26.82 average DPR without spending any class resources. Roughly 53.64. Also at this point, a Champion Fighter is at nearly 50% chance to get at least 1 crit if they use their action surge.
Level 12 Monk (UA6): Monks with Unarmed Strike are capped at d10 damage but we'll also add a +1 to account for something like a magical tatoo and 20 Dex. This equates to 5.5+1+5(+0.5 crit) or 12 damage per hit. With both attacks and a free bonus action attack this is only 21.6 average DPR. If they spend a Ki point, the Monk can boost this to 28.8 DPR with FOB. Assuming the Monk spent their level 12 ASI on Wisdom, they have a maximum possible AC of 19.
By level 12, a Monk with FOB is barely outperforming a Fighter with Great Weapon fighting style who is making only their basic attack action. The Fighter has equivalent (probably higher) AC, higher health, and isn't dipping into their class resources. Depending on their subclass or mount they may also have nearly equivalent mobility. And the math keeps running away from the Monk as more levels are reached and the Fighter has the opportunity to find more powerful magic items - notably, most of the higher level and unique magic weapons in the PHB and DMG are Martial Weapons that the Monk is incapable of wielding especially as of UA6.
The math shows that for the Monk to keep pace with the other Martial classes they have to expend more and more of their single class resource each round while Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians and others get to dip into a variety of different resources to fuel their special abilities with minimal crossover. And those classes aren't locked into a single ASI path to increase their most basic combat attributes.
But the monk's Unarmed Strike (via Martial Arts) can benefit from Topple and Vex.
You're talking about a minimum of four sets of calculations for each applicable mastery (Push, Sap, Topple, and Vex), and we're still only looking at...personal DPR? How do you factor in the increased survivability of following a Vex with a Sap, rather than leveraging advantage for damage? Hell, you'd have to include the odds of having advantage on certain attacks to be throrough about it.
This is why white room theorycrafting is utterly useless. It doesn't care about everyone else this one character is adventuring with.
I said a few pages ago that I'm not doing that unless someone can give me a good reason to. I don't care about squeezing every last point of damage out of a turn because damage isn't everything. So long as two classes are at least in the same ballpark, they're fine.
I'll point out too that while the Monk Bad crowd treats personal DPR as the sole metric of character viability, the majority of such folks treat Stunning Strike as the only feature Monks have worth spending their points on, even though such a feature serves to benefit the party as a whole more than it benefits the Monk solely.
It goes in lockstep with the many times I've pointed out that a Monk's multiple uses of Flurry of Blows per short rest ultimately exceeds the damage the Fighter does with Action Surge, only to be told by such "theorycrafters" that such is wrong—after I did the math in the very post they reply to. They insist that the Monk has poor damage, while insisting that a Monk has to be played in a manner that limits its damage output and blows through its resources so that other players have to expend less of their own resources.
FFS.
You do read what I put, right? At the levels monk generally outclasses fighter in terms of damage (1-4), action surge is better than flurry of blows, because it’s a higher damage attack that you get, and it doesn’t draw on a shared resource pool for fighter’s other abilities. Unlike flurry of blows, which does. I never said action surge was always more damage than flurry of blows.
Also, I’m pretty sure in my level-by-level post I pointed out fighter’s better AC, HP, and oftentimes mobility (due to their ability to take feats while the monk is desperate for ASIs), and that’s just in the base class. One of my favourite fighter subclasses is Psi Warrior. That damage reduction and, at level 7, fly speed, is great. And I am firmly in the Evil Minmaxer and Monk Bad crowd. Cue the ad hominem.
Also, stunning strike.. it is the only feature worth spending, because everything else pales in comparison. If it succeeds against a BBEG or single tough enemy that the whole party is fighting, it gives the WHOLE PARTY an extra turn. Very little is going to survive that. The only equivalent spell I can find is psychic lance. Which is 4th level, and as a result when spellcasters can do that once, monks can do that over and over again. Stunning strike is REALLY REALLY GOOD. Everything else is kinda meh.
hold monster, hold person, (actually gives guaranteed crits) staggering smite UA, restrained on any enemy without ranged attacks, a bunch of summons. Then you got sleep, which only allows one big hit,
In terms of fight enders, dominate person, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, tashaa hideous laughter.
Note that something waking up or breaking out after their turn, doesnt really matter much.
Hold Monster and Hold Person are concentration, and the creature gets two saves - once on your turn, once on its turn, which means it could take Legendary Actions if you’re high enough level. Restrained doesn’t stop them doing anything at all on their turn. Staggering smite weakens their turn, it doesn’t take it away. Plus hold person only works on humanoids, so stunning strike outclasses it by far until you get hold monster. Suggestion gets save adv if you’re fighting, hideous laughter also gets multiple saves, ‘a bunch of summons’ can be good but it depends, since a lot of the ‘summon lots of stuff’ spells are DM fiat. Dominate person is a save or suck, but it’s concentration. So is hypnotic pattern.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
I’m on about cleric. Twilight gives you heavy armour and shield prof. And 300ft of darkvision.
I see making dodge be part of the unarmored fighting as just the ticket to at least limit the number of single level dips. But I have felt it shouldn't cost a resource at base for a while, whether it has a stronger version that does cost a ki is another thing.
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Patient defense should be free for monks but bringing it in around level 4 to stop multiclassing abuse would be fine. They will never make it free though. Monk fans have wanted free dash and disengage for years but instead wotc doubled down on making the new step of the wind still cost ki. I like the new sotw. Its a bit overkill but i see the fun factor in it. But it has made patient defense largely irrelevant. If you can move in, attack and run away and be farther away then the enemies movement why would you ever stay in melee and use patient defense and risk getting squashed? I am hoping Patient Defense will get a boost in the next UA.🤞
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
I’m on about cleric. Twilight gives you heavy armour and shield prof. And 300ft of darkvision.
Yeah so? Heavy armour gives you DA on stealth (byebye surprise rounds) whereas Dodge gives you Advantage on Dex saves (yes, thanks for that 1/2 damage on most AoE effects) and makes it almost impossible to Crit you. Dodge is WAY better than heavy armour. Ergo Monk > cleric for 1 level wizard/sorc dip.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
I’m on about cleric. Twilight gives you heavy armour and shield prof. And 300ft of darkvision.
Yeah so? Heavy armour gives you DA on stealth (byebye surprise rounds) whereas Dodge gives you Advantage on Dex saves (yes, thanks for that 1/2 damage on most AoE effects) and makes it almost impossible to Crit you. Dodge is WAY better than heavy armour. Ergo Monk > cleric for 1 level wizard/sorc dip.
Provided free patient defence was a level one. Honestly, if patient defence was free I’d be happy with it at 6th level.
But the monk's Unarmed Strike (via Martial Arts) can benefit from Topple and Vex.
You're talking about a minimum of four sets of calculations for each applicable mastery (Push, Sap, Topple, and Vex), and we're still only looking at...personal DPR? How do you factor in the increased survivability of following a Vex with a Sap, rather than leveraging advantage for damage? Hell, you'd have to include the odds of having advantage on certain attacks to be throrough about it.
This is why white room theorycrafting is utterly useless. It doesn't care about everyone else this one character is adventuring with.
I said a few pages ago that I'm not doing that unless someone can give me a good reason to. I don't care about squeezing every last point of damage out of a turn because damage isn't everything. So long as two classes are at least in the same ballpark, they're fine.
I'll point out too that while the Monk Bad crowd treats personal DPR as the sole metric of character viability, the majority of such folks treat Stunning Strike as the only feature Monks have worth spending their points on, even though such a feature serves to benefit the party as a whole more than it benefits the Monk solely.
It goes in lockstep with the many times I've pointed out that a Monk's multiple uses of Flurry of Blows per short rest ultimately exceeds the damage the Fighter does with Action Surge, only to be told by such "theorycrafters" that such is wrong—after I did the math in the very post they reply to. They insist that the Monk has poor damage, while insisting that a Monk has to be played in a manner that limits its damage output and blows through its resources so that other players have to expend less of their own resources.
FFS.
You do read what I put, right? At the levels monk generally outclasses fighter in terms of damage (1-4), action surge is better than flurry of blows, because it’s a higher damage attack that you get, and it doesn’t draw on a shared resource pool for fighter’s other abilities. Unlike flurry of blows, which does. I never said action surge was always more damage than flurry of blows.
Also, I’m pretty sure in my level-by-level post I pointed out fighter’s better AC, HP, and oftentimes mobility (due to their ability to take feats while the monk is desperate for ASIs), and that’s just in the base class. One of my favourite fighter subclasses is Psi Warrior. That damage reduction and, at level 7, fly speed, is great. And I am firmly in the Evil Minmaxer and Monk Bad crowd. Cue the ad hominem.
Also, stunning strike.. it is the only feature worth spending, because everything else pales in comparison. If it succeeds against a BBEG or single tough enemy that the whole party is fighting, it gives the WHOLE PARTY an extra turn. Very little is going to survive that. The only equivalent spell I can find is psychic lance. Which is 4th level, and as a result when spellcasters can do that once, monks can do that over and over again. Stunning strike is REALLY REALLY GOOD. Everything else is kinda meh.
hold monster, hold person, (actually gives guaranteed crits) staggering smite UA, restrained on any enemy without ranged attacks, a bunch of summons. Then you got sleep, which only allows one big hit,
In terms of fight enders, dominate person, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, tashaa hideous laughter.
Note that something waking up or breaking out after their turn, doesnt really matter much.
Hold Monster and Hold Person are concentration, and the creature gets two saves - once on your turn, once on its turn, which means it could take Legendary Actions if you’re high enough level. Restrained doesn’t stop them doing anything at all on their turn. Staggering smite weakens their turn, it doesn’t take it away. Plus hold person only works on humanoids, so stunning strike outclasses it by far until you get hold monster. Suggestion gets save adv if you’re fighting, hideous laughter also gets multiple saves, ‘a bunch of summons’ can be good but it depends, since a lot of the ‘summon lots of stuff’ spells are DM fiat. Dominate person is a save or suck, but it’s concentration. So is hypnotic pattern.
Concentration's main drawback is you can only do one, mages rarely are at risk of losing concentration the same turn they cast a spell due to builds.
re hold monster/person
they can also last longer than one round. The monster getting a save at the end of its turn means it always loses its turn on success, and can lose more than its turn. That will never happen with stun. These spells also do paralyze, which guarantee criticals. Thats way more powerful, if the main goal is to wail on the monster for one turn.
stagerring smite changed in UA6, its exactly the old monk stun, with damage and a better save
" As you hit the creature, your strike pierces both body and mind. The target takes an extra 4d6 Psychic damage from the attack, and the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level, the extra damage increases by 1d6."
monks currently only last to beginning of their turn, and targets a con save. The difference in doing this an an upcasted smite is 5d8 vs 4d6 which is 8.5 damage on average. So the value of stun, as per this UA, is d8+4, or about one monk attack, or a level one spell.
stun is not as highly valued(in design) as people think. I would use stun situationally if given a choice for an MA+mod instead. Basically is the monster extremely deadly, or likely to run. Advantage is way more common now, so its basically for defense. And it needs to be dangerous enough that wasting 2-3ki and probably failing for 2-3 rounds is still worthwhile.
if your team isnt really in danger of a death, you aren't actually doing much. its still going to take the same number of rounds.In old 5e, monk could sacrifice its soul for one round of no dmg, but thats not even the case anymore.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
I’m on about cleric. Twilight gives you heavy armour and shield prof. And 300ft of darkvision.
Yeah so? Heavy armour gives you DA on stealth (byebye surprise rounds) whereas Dodge gives you Advantage on Dex saves (yes, thanks for that 1/2 damage on most AoE effects) and makes it almost impossible to Crit you. Dodge is WAY better than heavy armour. Ergo Monk > cleric for 1 level wizard/sorc dip.
Provided free patient defence was a level one. Honestly, if patient defence was free I’d be happy with it at 6th level.
free Ki, not that big a difference, no BA, sure. I'd pay 1 ki for something like shield. On monk, I don't think id pay a bonus action very often.
Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
I’m on about cleric. Twilight gives you heavy armour and shield prof. And 300ft of darkvision.
Yeah so? Heavy armour gives you DA on stealth (byebye surprise rounds) whereas Dodge gives you Advantage on Dex saves (yes, thanks for that 1/2 damage on most AoE effects) and makes it almost impossible to Crit you. Dodge is WAY better than heavy armour. Ergo Monk > cleric for 1 level wizard/sorc dip.
Provided free patient defence was a level one. Honestly, if patient defence was free I’d be happy with it at 6th level.
free Ki, not that big a difference, no BA, sure. I'd pay 1 ki for something like shield. On monk, I don't think id pay a bonus action very often.
While theory crafting many forget the disadvantages to things. PD is great, but you need to have your turn to get it up. Armor is the better all round option, especially at lower levels. Also giving up your spell casting level for a boost in defense that you might not need if you avoid melee is wild. Especially since you know you still need to run mage Armor for the build to work. Many fighters do have things they want to do with their BA already so this would be a choice they are making. I don’t mind choices being made. Also for anyone that wants this dip they must have 13 dex and 13 Wis. It’s not hard, but it does take from something else. Druid is probably the best class to take the dip, but still putting there Spellcasting a features back s level in a class that really wants to be single class. Honestly I’m not married to it being a level 1 feature, but I am married to it moving out of ki/discipline and unarmored defense is the best place for it. Monk unarmored defense is clearly worse than Barbarian unarmored defense, so adding patient defense to it would be nice. Maybe it’s part of unarmored defense but you can only do it starting at 2nd or 3rd level in monk. Other option we leave patient defense alone and as part of Unarmored defense we add defensive stance. As a bonus action you add +2 to your AC. This bonus improves as you gain levels in this class +3 at 5th, +4 at 13th.
Why not level 5? 1-4 the monk issues aren't as pronounced as they get to be later on, and it eliminates easy dips to get it.
That’s because during 1-4 the monk feels like that glass cannon. Most don’t have magic weapons and the Stunning Strike isn’t tempting you to spend all your Ki just to get it to work once. Also with low CR critters FoB might be a better choice than SS if you had it since you could just kill the thing. Once you hit 5 it’s a sudden shift from being one of the best DPR in the party to just decent. You and other Martials just got an extra attack, but most of theirs comes with a lot more damage. Many of the spellcasters just got handed heavy explosives. And as you continue to level you fall off even more. What I want is something that you get early so you create the play style. If you give it at 5th level it will still feel like a shift in play style. A new player won’t feel like they gained something that compliments what they were doing, but something that detracts from it. They won’t have the history with the class we do and a understanding of this defensive feature that eats your bonus action and lowers your damage out put per round comes on at level 5 to prevent easy dips, but from here forward you will need it and will be happy you have it.
But the monk's Unarmed Strike (via Martial Arts) can benefit from Topple and Vex.
You're talking about a minimum of four sets of calculations for each applicable mastery (Push, Sap, Topple, and Vex), and we're still only looking at...personal DPR? How do you factor in the increased survivability of following a Vex with a Sap, rather than leveraging advantage for damage? Hell, you'd have to include the odds of having advantage on certain attacks to be throrough about it.
This is why white room theorycrafting is utterly useless. It doesn't care about everyone else this one character is adventuring with.
I said a few pages ago that I'm not doing that unless someone can give me a good reason to. I don't care about squeezing every last point of damage out of a turn because damage isn't everything. So long as two classes are at least in the same ballpark, they're fine.
I'll point out too that while the Monk Bad crowd treats personal DPR as the sole metric of character viability, the majority of such folks treat Stunning Strike as the only feature Monks have worth spending their points on, even though such a feature serves to benefit the party as a whole more than it benefits the Monk solely.
It goes in lockstep with the many times I've pointed out that a Monk's multiple uses of Flurry of Blows per short rest ultimately exceeds the damage the Fighter does with Action Surge, only to be told by such "theorycrafters" that such is wrong—after I did the math in the very post they reply to. They insist that the Monk has poor damage, while insisting that a Monk has to be played in a manner that limits its damage output and blows through its resources so that other players have to expend less of their own resources.
FFS.
You do read what I put, right? At the levels monk generally outclasses fighter in terms of damage (1-4), action surge is better than flurry of blows, because it’s a higher damage attack that you get, and it doesn’t draw on a shared resource pool for fighter’s other abilities. Unlike flurry of blows, which does. I never said action surge was always more damage than flurry of blows.
Also, I’m pretty sure in my level-by-level post I pointed out fighter’s better AC, HP, and oftentimes mobility (due to their ability to take feats while the monk is desperate for ASIs), and that’s just in the base class. One of my favourite fighter subclasses is Psi Warrior. That damage reduction and, at level 7, fly speed, is great. And I am firmly in the Evil Minmaxer and Monk Bad crowd. Cue the ad hominem.
Also, stunning strike.. it is the only feature worth spending, because everything else pales in comparison. If it succeeds against a BBEG or single tough enemy that the whole party is fighting, it gives the WHOLE PARTY an extra turn. Very little is going to survive that. The only equivalent spell I can find is psychic lance. Which is 4th level, and as a result when spellcasters can do that once, monks can do that over and over again. Stunning strike is REALLY REALLY GOOD. Everything else is kinda meh.
This was a good response y,all have to admit .
ya had me dying good sir. "And I am firmly in the Evil Minmaxer and Monk Bad crowd. Cue the ad hominem. "
this line sent milk thru my nose while I was reading . that made my day . good blessing to you and yours my dude.
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I considered something like that for my attempt at a revised monk, but the problem with making patient defense a free bonus action is that the bonus action is only a high cost for a bonus action dependent class; it'd be far too good for multiclassing, as any class that doesn't need a bonus action for something else is made instantly more durable with a single level dip.
We already have one unarmed strike as a bonus action, and I think a single Dash or Disengage should become a free bonus action as well, then have doing both at the same time be the costed form. This gives us easy access to slightly more damage or significantly more mobility.
Really what Monk needs most is more options because that's my biggest problem with Stunning Strike; at higher levels it's all the Monk wants to do. But the reason things like battlemaster and spellcasters are so fun is because you have choices in what you do round to round, you have a lot of options to adapt, interfere and assist etc. Monks need more of this; fighters should be DPR, Monks should be versatile skirmishers.
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Not as part of unarmored defense. That’s why I moved it their specifically. A fighter who wants to Bonus action Patient Defense has to give up his armor for this one level dip. It might be good on a cleric or Druid, but they are giving up a spell casting level. Clerics have good armor training so it might not be worth it for them. Druid depends on if it could be done in Wildshape I think it could. Still messing up there casting level though.
Also I don’t imagine Monks as skirmishers.
It can benefit most casters; they usually want a decent Dexterity for their AC anyway, and a token 13 in Wisdom isn't much of a burden to multiclass. Picture a Wizard with mage armor + bonus action Dodge every round + optional shield on the rare occasion that's not enough.
Plus, it coming alongside Unarmored Defense means you have access to a base AC anyway, so even on normally armoured characters they can get away with not wearing any. A Dexterity fighter could easily max out their Unarmored Defense, actually much more easily than a Monk can thanks to the extra ability score increases.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
hold monster, hold person, (actually gives guaranteed crits) staggering smite UA, restrained on any enemy without ranged attacks, a bunch of summons. Then you got sleep, which only allows one big hit,
In terms of fight enders, dominate person, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, tashaa hideous laughter.
Note that something waking up or breaking out after their turn, doesnt really matter much.
unarmored defense is bad without high investment in dex and wis.
Average chance for hitting a normal monster during each tier of play is about 60% for martial characters.
A level 2 Fighter with a d12 weapon has about 60% chance to hit and if they do, it's for an average of 6.5 + Strength mod. for a Fighter with 16 Strength that's going to be 9.8 per hit after accounting for crit chance. If they add Action Surge, the average damage would be about 7.1 DPR
A level 2 Monk (UA6) that uses its action and bonus action to attack with a Quarterstaff would be doing about 4.5+3 damage (+0.225 Crit) per hit and the Bonus Action US for 3.5+3+0.175 per hit. That's about 8.4 average DPR after accounting for crit. If you throw in FOB that's about 12.66 total average DPR after accounting for crits. Certainly a good score for the Monk at level 2.
After level 4, the math starts to change.
Level 6 Fighter (UA7): Strength is now likely to be 20. With a d12 weapon, they do 60% of d12+5 + d12+5 per action which equates to 11.5 average damage per hit. If a Champion fighter, this increases to 12.1 after accounting for increased Critical Hit chance. At 60% chance to hit that's 14.58 average DPR. For an Action Surge, this goes up to 29.2 AVERAGE DPR after accounting for Champion Critical Hits.
Level 6 Monk (UA6): Dex is capped at 18. Armed or Unarmed Monks will be capped at a d8 damage die. Per attack action that will be d8+4(+0.225 crit) x2, +d8+4+0.225 again for the bonus unarmed strike. The result: 15.7 DPR without FOB, 20.94 DPR with FOB. We are already starting to lose ground.
Level 12 fighter (UA7): We are going to slightly change the math here: our Fighter has received a +1 Greatsword and taken the Great Weapon fighting Style (UA5) as part of a feat. They also have 2 extra attacks. With the rerolls on 1s and 2s for the Greatsword, the average damage per hit is now 7+1(+1 reroll effect)+5(+0.9 crit). That's 26.82 average DPR without spending any class resources. Roughly 53.64. Also at this point, a Champion Fighter is at nearly 50% chance to get at least 1 crit if they use their action surge.
Level 12 Monk (UA6): Monks with Unarmed Strike are capped at d10 damage but we'll also add a +1 to account for something like a magical tatoo and 20 Dex. This equates to 5.5+1+5(+0.5 crit) or 12 damage per hit. With both attacks and a free bonus action attack this is only 21.6 average DPR. If they spend a Ki point, the Monk can boost this to 28.8 DPR with FOB. Assuming the Monk spent their level 12 ASI on Wisdom, they have a maximum possible AC of 19.
By level 12, a Monk with FOB is barely outperforming a Fighter with Great Weapon fighting style who is making only their basic attack action. The Fighter has equivalent (probably higher) AC, higher health, and isn't dipping into their class resources. Depending on their subclass or mount they may also have nearly equivalent mobility. And the math keeps running away from the Monk as more levels are reached and the Fighter has the opportunity to find more powerful magic items - notably, most of the higher level and unique magic weapons in the PHB and DMG are Martial Weapons that the Monk is incapable of wielding especially as of UA6.
The math shows that for the Monk to keep pace with the other Martial classes they have to expend more and more of their single class resource each round while Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians and others get to dip into a variety of different resources to fuel their special abilities with minimal crossover. And those classes aren't locked into a single ASI path to increase their most basic combat attributes.
Hold Monster and Hold Person are concentration, and the creature gets two saves - once on your turn, once on its turn, which means it could take Legendary Actions if you’re high enough level. Restrained doesn’t stop them doing anything at all on their turn. Staggering smite weakens their turn, it doesn’t take it away. Plus hold person only works on humanoids, so stunning strike outclasses it by far until you get hold monster. Suggestion gets save adv if you’re fighting, hideous laughter also gets multiple saves, ‘a bunch of summons’ can be good but it depends, since a lot of the ‘summon lots of stuff’ spells are DM fiat. Dominate person is a save or suck, but it’s concentration. So is hypnotic pattern.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
That’s not that strong, considering they can get higher AC and 300ft of darkvision, plus adv on initiative, without armour restrictions, from a single level twilight cleric dip.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Dude, Dodge is better than a +5 bonus to AC, so base AC of 15 (Mage Armour) + 5 (Shield) + Dodge is the equivalent to AC 25-27.
For a Druid you've got AC = 12+2 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 16, vs Unarmoured Defense = 10+2(DEX)+4(WIS)+Dodge = effective AC ~20
I’m on about cleric. Twilight gives you heavy armour and shield prof. And 300ft of darkvision.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
I see making dodge be part of the unarmored fighting as just the ticket to at least limit the number of single level dips. But I have felt it shouldn't cost a resource at base for a while, whether it has a stronger version that does cost a ki is another thing.
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Patient defense should be free for monks but bringing it in around level 4 to stop multiclassing abuse would be fine. They will never make it free though. Monk fans have wanted free dash and disengage for years but instead wotc doubled down on making the new step of the wind still cost ki. I like the new sotw. Its a bit overkill but i see the fun factor in it. But it has made patient defense largely irrelevant. If you can move in, attack and run away and be farther away then the enemies movement why would you ever stay in melee and use patient defense and risk getting squashed? I am hoping Patient Defense will get a boost in the next UA.🤞
Yeah so? Heavy armour gives you DA on stealth (byebye surprise rounds) whereas Dodge gives you Advantage on Dex saves (yes, thanks for that 1/2 damage on most AoE effects) and makes it almost impossible to Crit you. Dodge is WAY better than heavy armour. Ergo Monk > cleric for 1 level wizard/sorc dip.
Provided free patient defence was a level one. Honestly, if patient defence was free I’d be happy with it at 6th level.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Concentration's main drawback is you can only do one, mages rarely are at risk of losing concentration the same turn they cast a spell due to builds.
re hold monster/person
they can also last longer than one round. The monster getting a save at the end of its turn means it always loses its turn on success, and can lose more than its turn. That will never happen with stun. These spells also do paralyze, which guarantee criticals. Thats way more powerful, if the main goal is to wail on the monster for one turn.
stagerring smite changed in UA6, its exactly the old monk stun, with damage and a better save
" As you hit the creature, your strike pierces both body and mind. The target takes an extra 4d6 Psychic damage from the attack, and the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level, the extra damage increases by 1d6."
monks currently only last to beginning of their turn, and targets a con save. The difference in doing this an an upcasted smite is 5d8 vs 4d6 which is 8.5 damage on average. So the value of stun, as per this UA, is d8+4, or about one monk attack, or a level one spell.
stun is not as highly valued(in design) as people think. I would use stun situationally if given a choice for an MA+mod instead. Basically is the monster extremely deadly, or likely to run. Advantage is way more common now, so its basically for defense. And it needs to be dangerous enough that wasting 2-3ki and probably failing for 2-3 rounds is still worthwhile.
if your team isnt really in danger of a death, you aren't actually doing much. its still going to take the same number of rounds.In old 5e, monk could sacrifice its soul for one round of no dmg, but thats not even the case anymore.
free Ki, not that big a difference, no BA, sure. I'd pay 1 ki for something like shield. On monk, I don't think id pay a bonus action very often.
While theory crafting many forget the disadvantages to things. PD is great, but you need to have your turn to get it up. Armor is the better all round option, especially at lower levels. Also giving up your spell casting level for a boost in defense that you might not need if you avoid melee is wild. Especially since you know you still need to run mage Armor for the build to work. Many fighters do have things they want to do with their BA already so this would be a choice they are making. I don’t mind choices being made. Also for anyone that wants this dip they must have 13 dex and 13 Wis. It’s not hard, but it does take from something else. Druid is probably the best class to take the dip, but still putting there Spellcasting a features back s level in a class that really wants to be single class.
Honestly I’m not married to it being a level 1 feature, but I am married to it moving out of ki/discipline and unarmored defense is the best place for it. Monk unarmored defense is clearly worse than Barbarian unarmored defense, so adding patient defense to it would be nice. Maybe it’s part of unarmored defense but you can only do it starting at 2nd or 3rd level in monk.
Other option we leave patient defense alone and as part of Unarmored defense we add defensive stance. As a bonus action you add +2 to your AC. This bonus improves as you gain levels in this class +3 at 5th, +4 at 13th.
Why not level 5? 1-4 the monk issues aren't as pronounced as they get to be later on, and it eliminates easy dips to get it.
That’s because during 1-4 the monk feels like that glass cannon. Most don’t have magic weapons and the Stunning Strike isn’t tempting you to spend all your Ki just to get it to work once. Also with low CR critters FoB might be a better choice than SS if you had it since you could just kill the thing. Once you hit 5 it’s a sudden shift from being one of the best DPR in the party to just decent. You and other Martials just got an extra attack, but most of theirs comes with a lot more damage. Many of the spellcasters just got handed heavy explosives. And as you continue to level you fall off even more. What I want is something that you get early so you create the play style. If you give it at 5th level it will still feel like a shift in play style. A new player won’t feel like they gained something that compliments what they were doing, but something that detracts from it. They won’t have the history with the class we do and a understanding of this defensive feature that eats your bonus action and lowers your damage out put per round comes on at level 5 to prevent easy dips, but from here forward you will need it and will be happy you have it.
This was a good response y,all have to admit .
ya had me dying good sir. "And I am firmly in the Evil Minmaxer and Monk Bad crowd. Cue the ad hominem. "
this line sent milk thru my nose while I was reading . that made my day . good blessing to you and yours my dude.