Change to a wisdom-based spellcaster (probably half) with some special abilities that boost functioning as desired -- for example, might be "monk spells that normally take an action to cast, when cast on the monk and no other targets, may be cast as a bonus action".
Unarmored Defense -> Mage Armor on spell list.
Flurry of Blows -> new custom spell.
Patient Defense -> Shield of Faith on spell list.. Or a new spell. Or Shield.
Step of the Wind -> Expeditious Retreat on spell list..
Unarmored Movement -> Longstrider on spell list.
Deflect Missiles -> Shield on spell list (or a new spell)
Slow Fall -> Feather Fall on spell list.
Stunning Strike -> new Smite type spell.
Acrobatic Movement -> Spider Climb and Walk on Water on spell list.
Self-Restoration -> Lesser Restoration on spell list.
Deflect Energy -> Mostly covered by Shield, but we can add Absorb Elements or Protection from Energy to the spell list.
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
It's not martial-caster divide, it's a specific problem with monk. There is just a massive paucity of creativity when it comes to the monk. I mean old 4 Elements monk was just a random collection of spells you could cast with ki.
Though I despise the giving away of damage + incapacitation to other classes via the new Smite spell, and Raduins Psychic Lance. They have really just given away and now nerfed the only cool thing about monk. It needs a significant redesign now.
A game is a system of rules and limits, there has to be some control. Without it we are just standing around telling each other stories that don’t even match up in tone or theme. If you want to have Goku next to your medieval knight that’s cool for your story, but it will literally break the game.
The moment you have a wizard next to your medieval knight you've broken the game. If you're going to have wizards killing people with giant rocks from heaven you're no longer in the scope of a 'medieval knight', you're in the scope of Heracles redirecting major rivers to clean the Augean Stables.
So Merlin and King Author aren’t from the same fantasy setting? I just leaned something new.
King Arthur is affected almost as much by magical ability in the Arthurian tales as Merlin is. Dude's carrying holy relics and getting blessed by angelic beings every other week. Probably takes a prophecy every afternoon with his tea.
D&D Martial classes, including the Monk, are absolutely supposed to be handling these types of superhuman challenges as they progress in levels. And while it's easy to flavor anything, sometimes that needs to be mechanically acknowledged.
Martials currently have problems because as early as 5th level D&D is basically a game about medieval superheroes and classes like the Fighter, Rogue and Monk are largely treated like they have no agency. By level 20, yes Herculean feats should be the standard for Martial classes. Gods should be challenging them to tests of skill, strength and endurance. Because at level 20, that is exactly what is being encountered.
In the original Journey to the West, Son Goku the Monkey King is very notably not a deity - at least initially. He's a mischievous prankster with far above-average cunning. And in recognition of that, the pantheon elevates him to godhood. Then strips him of it as punishment.
The part of the game where players are average humans dealing with human and peak human problems ends around level 10. They're still doing superhero stuff, but starting at tier 3 and especially in tier 4 you need to be treating players as superhumans, demigods, etc because that's what the spellcasters are doing - and if only the Spellcasters get to be superhuman then why bother playing a Martial class?
Short version: eventually spellcasters might be warping reality on an hourly basis, but by that point Martial characters need to be incarnations of Hercules, Achilles, Son Goku, King Arthur, Gilgamesh and Enkidu etc. Because that's the only kind of hero that can justify a problem so large that you need to fight it with a Wish spell.
well put sir .
this is all I was trying to say. you said in a much better way, respect.
Hoping next ua gives us some of this a little bit at least.
IMO the problem here is that the Paladin is kind of the Western cultural version of the Monk, due to the influence of Christianity & Roman militarism on Western culture.
Debatable. While there are certainly militarized western religious orders such as the Teutonic Order, they don't seem to treat the use of weapons as a form of religious practice, whereas there was a definite religious element to, for example, the practice of martial arts at the Shaolin temples.
while this is true chaan Buddhism lends itself to being more secular as the focus is more on the practice and less on supernatural beliefs, this is even more true for Zen Buddhism wich sprang from chaan. while it doesn't mean all chaan buddist didnt have any supernatural beliefs the focus is mostly on meditation and attaining the right mental practice. Much of the training can overlap with meditational practices . alot of running, mediatizing under a waterfall and forms can all help someone progress, though meditation is the main outlet usually.
so, how does this apply to the monk class? should the dev team lean more into the fantastical for subclass tiers 3 & 4? examples being the new world tree barbarian who can 'rainbow bridge' teleport his party to other planes or the path of giants barb who eventually just becomes huge because they ...never gave up? and the former totem barb who can fly for the same reason birds can fly: rage.
should they? or should the class / subclass bones be mundane for those who desire it more down-to-earth, then 'flavor is free' for the rest? every campaign is different.
Yes that is a wonderful idea rum . I do hope they do so . more features and flavors are welcome.
So what you're basically saying is that if someone wants to play a mundane character, they should look for another game system?
This whole mundane vs. magical issue feels like a massive distraction, and I'm not sure everyone is using mundane to mean the same thing.
In 5th-edition even a 1st-level player character is beyond "normal" as they surpass the average commoner thanks to superior ability scores and access to special abilities. No player character in 5th-edition can be described as "mundane" in the sense of their being nothing special about them.
But mundane in the sense of being non-magical (which I suspect is what most people mean, and how I would use it in the context of this thread) is simply the way most pure martials are; you might debate whether an extraordinary fighter or monk might actually be magical in a less obvious way, but mechanically it's up to the player if they are blessed by a deity, unusually driven, or supremely skilled and resilient etc.?
The relevant point for this thread is that for martial classes the core features should be a little ambiguous in their source so the player can decide what it represents within a broad archetype. Sub-classes can be less ambiguous because they are for specialising or expanding in one of several directions, so the player that wants to be more magical/mystical can choose a sub-class that supports a build with more "powers", while someone who wants to be more about supreme technique can choose one with more purely physical abilities etc.
Beyond that I don't think a debate about what class an arthurian character might be is in anyway related to improving the Monk class?
Yes "mundane" here means that it doesn't use magic, or at least doesn't use it in an obvious way like spellcasters or overtly magical subclasses like Rune Knight or Four Elements Monk.
And this debate exists for the same reason as discussions on the "martial caster divide" and what the Monk class is even supposed to be doing, which is that there is significantly more controversy on how powerful martial characters (especially "pure martials") are supposed to be. And the Monk is no exception.
I don't think very many non-casters sign up to be weaker or less effective than other characters. If you ask someone if fighters should be as effective as wizards, some might say no, but if you ask them if the class they are about to play should be relatively worse than other classes they ll say no.
IE its real easy to tell some other guy that their class should be lame for the greater good, or immersion
that said, I think its an incorrect assumption that martials want the same things that casters have/do. Its a different fantasy, with different desires and flavor. I ve seen people say fighter would be great with group heals and buffs, but I don't really think thats what people who picked fighter are really expecting from fighters.
I agree. I don’t think martials as a base class need crowd control, buff/debuffs, etc. Damage, single target primarily, is what they should be outpacing casters at. And WotC seems to be giving martials a little more out of combat utility with skills, so that’s good. And probably all they need.
Casters can have the AOE (which might need reducing in some spells), crowd control and the buffing. But I do agree that casters may have a little too much, but I’m not sure if WotC will need, even slightly, their spells
I think your right Kreen,
if they boost that part of martials and the base classes are good then subclasses can be allowed to mix up the flavor more.
also many people don't realize that every caster even the half casters can generally out damage the fighter, who is the best warrior.
okay, so what now with the monk? give them capability to fit into every martial role (tank, damage, bag of tricks, bonesaw doctor(?), etc...) or give all the other martials kamehameha blasts and water walking? or, giving consideration to specialties, should the base class have a discernible niche (skirmisher, wrestler, marathon running slap-fighter, bonus to humanoids, ninja stuff, etc.)?
Having flexibility doesn't mean you can't also have a niche where you are strongest. Monks already have a degree of flexibility; they can activate Patient Defense when they need to avoid more incoming attacks, ideal when surrounded or being focused upon. It's not really tanking but then there isn't really any true tanking in 5th edition (the few builds that can include a "taunt" mechanic to push enemies to attack them can only do so in a very limited degree, and compelled duel is still better vs. a single target).
That's one of the big problems with the martial/caster divide; there is very little that martials do that casters can't do better with the right spell. So the first thing we need is for martials to carve out more areas where they can surpass casters, who have both flexibility and sheer power on their side already. The main advantage martials have at the moment is that they can do what they do without much setup (whereas casters may need to cast something in advance to boost their defense), but "always ready" and "staying power" don't really tell in the long run because casters gain resources extremely quickly, and most of their magic items only increase their options and resources.
For monk specifically, we get some early flexibility but it never really goes anywhere, and the only option that properly scales up is Stunning Strike (not anymore in OneD&D). This is why Monks really need more powers to establish them as being highly flexible martials as standard, and should improve upon that over time. Both fighter and monk should IMO be all-rounders to a degree, with fighter having the edge in raw damage and solid passive defences, while Monk should have more active abilities as that the player must choose between (a bit like a caster).
But that doesn't mean other martials couldn't do with some added flexibility as well; I think you're looking at the wrong areas though. It's not about every martial having the same specific powers ("kamehama blasts and water walking"), but about having answers to common problems, i.e- enemies being at range, being surrounded, etc. Not every martial needs to have the same answer to those problems, nor be as good in every area. Barbarian would be the obvious one to excel when surrounded because when faced with a horde you want them going after the barbarian rather than everyone else, but the barbarian should be able to hold their own for a while if needed. But that doesn't mean we couldn't do with sweeping attacks on fighters, or a multi-opportunity attack on Monk or such so they too have things they can do in the same situation, i.e- each class has an answer to some of the same areas, but those answers can be different.
Combining abilities with allies should always be the most powerful option, because it's a party-based game, but it'd be nice if martials weren't helpless in some scenarios without a caster to bail them out.
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And I would leave that up to subclasses. And you can already grapple two foes at once (Astral Self could be particularly good at it)
We really like putting a lot of pressure on subclasses to make up for the base class's shortfalls, it seems.
"We" meaning both designers and players.
But isn't that part of what subclasses are meant to do? Shoulder some of that weight? They're not just fluff, but various aspects of the base class to fulfill certain playstyles or fantasies.
My response was focused on this part of the quote "it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see one martial class that could, for instance, grapple two foes at once. or another that eventually masters the art of swinging a big damn axe in a whirlwind to take out many token foes."
We can already grapple two foes at once, if you have two free hands, with any class. But if you want to "build" a character to excel at grappling you have to make some choices, and subclass will be part of it. Which is why I mentioned Astral Self monk. The base classes are the Archetypes that then the subclasses expand upon. And I don't think we need base classes to be the "grappling class" or the "whirlwind axe of death" class. Which I responded to in a later post. The class is the foundation and if you want a niche build or a character with a narrow focus then subclasses are one of many ways to do just that.
D&D isn't a game with hundreds of classes to fit every possible niche. There are 13 classes. That's it. So subclasses have to take some of that "pressure" to fulfill the infinite number of character fantasies a player may come up with. And it's not necessarily to "make up for the base class's shortfalls". The example I quoted, grappling two foes/whirlwind axe, has nothing to do with any shortfalls. A fighter, who will eventually have 4 attacks, 5 if they also have a BA attack, can be that "eventually masters the art of swinging a big damn axe in a whirlwind to take out many token foes."
Change to a wisdom-based spellcaster (probably half) with some special abilities that boost functioning as desired -- for example, might be "monk spells that normally take an action to cast, when cast on the monk and no other targets, may be cast as a bonus action".
Unarmored Defense -> Mage Armor on spell list.
Flurry of Blows -> new custom spell.
Patient Defense -> Shield of Faith on spell list.. Or a new spell. Or Shield.
Step of the Wind -> Expeditious Retreat on spell list..
Unarmored Movement -> Longstrider on spell list.
Deflect Missiles -> Shield on spell list (or a new spell)
Slow Fall -> Feather Fall on spell list.
Stunning Strike -> new Smite type spell.
Acrobatic Movement -> Spider Climb and Walk on Water on spell list.
Self-Restoration -> Lesser Restoration on spell list.
Deflect Energy -> Mostly covered by Shield, but we can add Absorb Elements or Protection from Energy to the spell list.
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
I really like the idea of monk as half caster with a few monk custom spells. Since other half casters are also MAD it fits with precedent. Spell slots are great to make up for the lack of feats monk can take. Spell slots are a tried, tested and true resource pool where ki/discipline points are a BIG work in progress. I would be quite happy if they blew up the monk and made them a half caster.
Change to a wisdom-based spellcaster (probably half) with some special abilities that boost functioning as desired -- for example, might be "monk spells that normally take an action to cast, when cast on the monk and no other targets, may be cast as a bonus action".
Unarmored Defense -> Mage Armor on spell list.
Flurry of Blows -> new custom spell.
Patient Defense -> Shield of Faith on spell list.. Or a new spell. Or Shield.
Step of the Wind -> Expeditious Retreat on spell list..
Unarmored Movement -> Longstrider on spell list.
Deflect Missiles -> Shield on spell list (or a new spell)
Slow Fall -> Feather Fall on spell list.
Stunning Strike -> new Smite type spell.
Acrobatic Movement -> Spider Climb and Walk on Water on spell list.
Self-Restoration -> Lesser Restoration on spell list.
Deflect Energy -> Mostly covered by Shield, but we can add Absorb Elements or Protection from Energy to the spell list.
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
I really like the idea of monk as half caster with a few monk custom spells. Since other half casters are also MAD it fits with precedent. Spell slots are great to make up for the lack of feats monk can take. Spell slots are a tried, tested and true resource pool where ki/discipline points are a BIG work in progress. I would be quite happy if they blew up the monk and made them a half caster.
don't like this at all. I Am not interested in being a caster as a monk, casters in general, or using a spell slot based resource system. I have played casters at times and enjoyed them, but spell slots was just something I put up with.
ideally for me, monks would be at will, per encounter and some short rest based features
okay, so what now with the monk? give them capability to fit into every martial role (tank, damage, bag of tricks, bonesaw doctor(?), etc...) or give all the other martials kamehameha blasts and water walking? or, giving consideration to specialties, should the base class have a discernible niche (skirmisher, wrestler, marathon running slap-fighter, bonus to humanoids, ninja stuff, etc.)?
Having flexibility doesn't mean you can't also have a niche where you are strongest. Monks already have a degree of flexibility; they can activate Patient Defense when they need to avoid more incoming attacks, ideal when surrounded or being focused upon. It's not really tanking but then there isn't really any true tanking in 5th edition (the few builds that can include a "taunt" mechanic to push enemies to attack them can only do so in a very limited degree, and compelled duel is still better vs. a single target).
That's one of the big problems with the martial/caster divide; there is very little that martials do that casters can't do better with the right spell. So the first thing we need is for martials to carve out more areas where they can surpass casters, who have both flexibility and sheer power on their side already. The main advantage martials have at the moment is that they can do what they do without much setup (whereas casters may need to cast something in advance to boost their defense), but "always ready" and "staying power" don't really tell in the long run because casters gain resources extremely quickly, and most of their magic items only increase their options and resources...
honestly, i'm not certain that martials can carve out utility better than casters. any space that might have been left, some industrious mage decided was a chance to get their name in the books. some martials can climb walls better than anyone, for instance, and perhaps it would make sense to limit which caster spell lists included spider climb. but when a party that does not include that martial or that caster reaches this climbing obstacle... someone's still bound to have some rope. any niche you can think of is likely accomplishable by some length of rope, a 10-foot pole, a bucket, a piece of chalk, or some kindling. or the party's obligatory 3+ familiars.
i'm reminded of a situation in critical role season 2 where the party had to cross a river. one person swam while another water walked, and both got a rope across for the team with time and effort and ability checks. then someone else parted the waters like moses and rule of cool'd the rest of the party across anyway. and i recall the reaction being something like "oh, right. you can do that." and my first thought was that obstacles like that are put in place to highlight abilities. like giving the rogue some boxes to pick open and the ranger some tracks to follow. i'm not sure who the river was 'for,' but it certainly turned out to be no obstacle at all. so... maybe this whole things is moot and it's up to the table to determine who gets to open their bag of tricks, no one taking all the fun all the time? i don't know.
and anyway, casters would be a lot more restricted if dms held them to the built in restraints of spell components and smart enemies. sometimes it feels like the casters are playing this game and it's up to the martials to save them spell slots and play bodyguard. which, honestly might be an interesting place to lean into. if casting a fireball was something you started on your initiative but finished on some later initiative (or next round), there'd be some interesting decisions to make regarding how to avoid being interrupted.
For monk specifically, we get some early flexibility but it never really goes anywhere, and the only option that properly scales up is Stunning Strike (not anymore in OneD&D). This is why Monks really need more powers to establish them as being highly flexible martials as standard, and should improve upon that over time. Both fighter and monk should IMO be all-rounders to a degree, with fighter having the edge in raw damage and solid passive defences, while Monk should have more active abilities as that the player must choose between (a bit like a caster).
monk had a handful of powers to be flexible, but they were given over to rogue's cunning strike. also they weren't monk powers, they were open hand powers. and rogue didn't hide those in a subclass, that became a base ability which is expanded upon by the subclasses. similarly, flurry of blows could be a vehicle for different flavors of disable and control. brawler subclass can add sap/slow/vex to any rock that catches their eye, so surely some monk's master will have figured it out by UA8, right?
But that doesn't mean other martials couldn't do with some added flexibility as well; I think you're looking at the wrong areas though. It's not about every martial having the same specific powers ("kamehama blasts and water walking"), but about having answers to common problems, i.e- enemies being at range, being surrounded, etc. Not every martial needs to have the same answer to those problems, nor be as good in every area. Barbarian would be the obvious one to excel when surrounded because when faced with a horde you want them going after the barbarian rather than everyone else, but the barbarian should be able to hold their own for a while if needed. But that doesn't mean we couldn't do with sweeping attacks on fighters, or a multi-opportunity attack on Monk or such so they too have things they can do in the same situation, i.e- each class has an answer to some of the same areas, but those answers can be different.
Combining abilities with allies should always be the most powerful option, because it's a party-based game, but it'd be nice if martials weren't helpless in some scenarios without a caster to bail them out.
being a helpless paladin with no ranged options is about stimulus and response. it's not that you have nothing to do, it's about what you do with what you have. adversity builds character. there is nothing story-building about a character or class that never experiences adversity because they have the right feature or spell or ability for everything. although, i suppose if everyone else around you is suffering when you do not then perhaps that's a lesson in privilege?
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And I would leave that up to subclasses. And you can already grapple two foes at once (Astral Self could be particularly good at it)
We really like putting a lot of pressure on subclasses to make up for the base class's shortfalls, it seems.
"We" meaning both designers and players.
But isn't that part of what subclasses are meant to do? Shoulder some of that weight? They're not just fluff, but various aspects of the base class to fulfill certain playstyles or fantasies.
My response was focused on this part of the quote "it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see one martial class that could, for instance, grapple two foes at once. or another that eventually masters the art of swinging a big damn axe in a whirlwind to take out many token foes."
We can already grapple two foes at once, if you have two free hands, with any class. But if you want to "build" a character to excel at grappling you have to make some choices, and subclass will be part of it. Which is why I mentioned Astral Self monk. The base classes are the Archetypes that then the subclasses expand upon. And I don't think we need base classes to be the "grappling class" or the "whirlwind axe of death" class. Which I responded to in a later post. The class is the foundation and if you want a niche build or a character with a narrow focus then subclasses are one of many ways to do just that.
D&D isn't a game with hundreds of classes to fit every possible niche. There are 13 classes. That's it. So subclasses have to take some of that "pressure" to fulfill the infinite number of character fantasies a player may come up with. And it's not necessarily to "make up for the base class's shortfalls". The example I quoted, grappling two foes/whirlwind axe, has nothing to do with any shortfalls. A fighter, who will eventually have 4 attacks, 5 if they also have a BA attack, can be that "eventually masters the art of swinging a big damn axe in a whirlwind to take out many token foes."
could we assume i added "effectively" to the end of the "grapple two" thing? because weathering two saving throws (to avoid), two ability checks (to escape), and then two attacks (to the face!) all while having sacrificed a round of damage abilities and tanked your own movement seems like a risky venture that could be improved upon over time.
"it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see one martial class that could, for instance, grapple two foes at once effectively."
brawler subclass addresses this briefly at level 7 (1d6 damage for only one foe) and level 10 (advantage to unarmed strikes against grappled) but no mention of the sound of two hollow coconuts knocking together. a shame. however, grappling is only niche because of all the general escapes built in. it is unreliable and inefficient. if a class like monk was given a hefty bonus to unarmed attacks against specifically humanoids [who are wearing clothing or armor to grab] then grapples might become a more sure thing. a training-and-insight-based focus on bipeds similar to ranger class focus on animals/monsters/etc. from there it could be subclasses that describe how the monk uses the foes as weapons or shields on the front line. but it has to start from the foundation, from the base.
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Ok, effectively grapple two foes at once. You are correct that this is harder to do in 1DD with the change to saving throws instead of ability checks. You really have limited options to improve except get your STR up to increase DC. In 5e you at least had your proficiency, expertise, and ways of gaining advantage on ability checks.
Brawlers a just a mess. I did the survey this morning and told them this. I like the idea, but it's like they took the Unarmed Fighting Style, Tavern Brawler feat and Grappler feat, mashed them together and said, "here's your new subclass" basically most of the features boil down to this. They need more to it. Going Battle Master fighter and taking Unarmed fighting style and Tavern Brawler (maybe even Grappler although it sucks) and you basically have most of Brawler with all your Superiority dice and Maneuvers on top of that.
And you are correct, the foundation of the class has to be good to build upon. I've never said the monk base class was good. It's the reason I started this thread, and many others about the monk, because I think it needs work. And I'm hoping UA8 has some surprises in it for the monk. I put that in my survey too, at the end. Don't screw up the monk, was how I put it, even though it wasn't part of this UA the revisions were disappointing (well, Shadow and Elements were good).
And I think this what I have been trying to say. Make the base class good. Then, if you want niche builds or certain flavors or fantasies you want fulfilled, the subclass system is part of the way to do this.
being a helpless paladin with no ranged options is about stimulus and response. it's not that you have nothing to do, it's about what you do with what you have. adversity builds character. there is nothing story-building about a character or class that never experiences adversity because they have the right feature or spell or ability for everything. although, i suppose if everyone else around you is suffering when you do not then perhaps that's a lesson in privilege?
I didn't say no class should ever be able to face adversity, or that every class should have a perfect answer to literally any problem it is faced with. What is it with people on these forums and constantly arguing against things I have never said?
I said martials need to be more flexible to compete better with casters. I did not say they should have no weakness, or that that flexibility should allow them to excel at everything. Having an answer to being surrounded does not mean you tick a box and instantly win the fight, it does not mean you are the best at being surrounded, it just means you have something you can do without having to rely on a caster to bail you out While I didn't actually say it the inverse is also true; a number of spells desperately need to be made weaker so they stop enabling casters to be better than every other class at what they're supposed to be best at.
Not that I expect that from OneD&D given that Wizards of the Coast has now tried multiple times in the playtests so far to make invisibility hands down the most powerful stealth option in the entire game, and keeps giving all of the best new features to the already powerful casters.
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So as a thought experiment I went through and redesigned the UA6 Monk into something that at least thematically I think fits in with some of the concepts that many players here have advocated for. I decided to focus on being a highly mobile skirmisher that is extremely skilled at getting across unusual terrain and having an extremely flexible action economy which uses their Action, Bonus Action and Reaction to improve mobility, offense, and defense. I also added a few features to make the class more flexible during construction but with a clear focus towards high Dexterity.
1: Players seem to like mobility, so I added to features that increased mobility. This resulted in changes to Unarmored Movement, Step of the Wind, and Acrobatic Movement. Step of the Wind and Acrobatic Movement got features that would be helpful in armor but also would improve the tradeoff of Unarmored Defense for dramatically improved traversal more in line with scenes from films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
2: Players have strong concerns about Ki/Discipline, so I changed the starting amount and also changed how it is recovered. Players start with Discipline + Wis mod after a long rest, and can meditate in the field to recover points at the rate of Wis mod per minute. This recovery option only occurs once per short or long rest. Heightened Metabolism stayed at 7th level and changed to giving the benefits of a Short Rest if players fully topped off their Discipline points during meditation. When this kicks in at 7th level, parties are conveniently getting to a point where many classes no longer feel like they need Short Rests. So this allows a Monk to always get at least 2 Discipline recharges per Long Rest from level 7 onwards.
3: Inflexible action economy is a common criticism of the Monk. Many features demand that the Monk choose to sacrifice either their Action or Bonus Action, so they either have a potentially strong offense or a potentially strong defense or potentially strong mobility but can't capitalize on it with their remaining action economy. I moved some features to reactions, and made other features function on top of features that can work in either the action or bonus action. For example, Flurry of Blows is one extra Unarmed Strike that you can make once per turn after making an attack with your action, bonus action, or reaction. Step of the Wind can now be triggered any time you Dash, and you choose to dash for no cost with your Bonus Action.
4: Players feel that Stunning Strike is stifling. I removed the Stun condition from Stunning Strike and instead it applies a variety of buffs to Unarmed Strikes including a free grapple. Given its woeful status in UA6, I think that the old Stunning Strike would be an amazing addition to the Open Hand monk at 11th level. To make up for the loss of Stunning Strike, I instead gave Monks a huge defensive buff.
4: Defense is a big deal and players feel the Monk doesn't get enough AC, HP or options for accessing magic armor. I gave Monks proficiency in Light Armor, a Fighting Style so they could choose either Defensive style or an offensive option to represent a particular Martial Arts tradition, and a reaction to increase their AC temporarily which grows in power and duration as the Monk levels up.
5: Since most of the "mystical" elements of the Monk are found in the subclasses, I focused on the physical attributes of the Monk for the core class. This allows each subclass to represent a different mystical tradition. I also believe that this allows for a more thematic way to introduce alternative damage types such as Force, Radiant, Necrotic, and the elemntal types.
6: I like the UA7 Brawler concept, so I applied some portions of it to the Monk core class. The core Monk gains proficiency in Improvised Weapons (that aren't heavy) and has an option to grapple opponents when it hits them with an Unarmed Strike.
Despite some terminology changes for Ki abilities, I believe that the proposed changes are 100% compatible with all released Monk subclasses.
Below is a mostly complete recreation using the UA6 terminology as a starting point for anyone who wishes to comment. It is probably a little overtuned, but I'd rather see it brought back into line if necessary than start weak and get weaker. Assume that all core features from UA6 as listed on the Monk Table are present at the same levels and same wording as is in the UA, unless they are overridden here (for example, Extra Attack is not altered in any way so it isn't mentioned here but it is assumed as a 5th level feature)
Martial Arts: Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapons, and Improvised Weapons. You gain the following benefits:
Bonus Unarmed Strike: When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapon or Improvised Weapon on your turn; or if you spend 1 or more Ki points as part of your action; you may make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks: You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons and Improvised Weapons except for those that have the Heavy property.
Martial Arts Die: You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage for your Unarmed Strike or Improvised Weapons. This die changes as you gain levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
Fighting Style: Gain a Fighting Style from the following list of your choice: Blind Fighting, Defense, Dueling, Dual Wielding, Thrown Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Level 2:
Martial Discipline: Your intense training has resulted in the ability to channel your discipline into bursts of intense focus. When you finish a Long Rest, gain a number of Focus points up to your Monk Level plus your Wisdom modifier. You may choose to Meditate to recover expended Focus points. To Meditate, you must spend at least 1 minute in quiet meditation during which you cannot take any actions, but you can walk at your unmodified movement speed. When you Meditate in this way, you recover a number of Focus Points equal to your Wisdom modifier for every minute you spend Meditating (minimum of 1 per minute). If you take any damage or use an action while meditating your meditation is interrupted and you do not recover any more Focus points. Once you have recovered any number of Focus points, you cannot Meditate to recover Focus again until you take a long or short rest.
Unarmored Movement: When not wearing armor or carrying a shield, your movement speed increases by 10 feet and increases again at certain levels as indicated on the Monk Table. Also, when not wearing armor or carrying a shield you may use your Dexterity instead of Strength when determining how far you can jump.
Flurry of Blows: Once per turn, when you make at least one Melee Weapon Attack or Unarmed Strike with your Action, Bonus Action or Reaction you may spend 1 Ki point to make 1 additional Unarmed Strike as part of that Action, Bonus Action or Reaction.
Patient Defense: When a creature you can see attempts to hit you with an attack, you may use your Reaction to increase your AC by 2 until the end of that creature's turn. If the creature misses with an attack, you may spend 1 Focus point to make 1 Unarmed Strike against that creature.
Step of the Wind: You may Dash as a Bonus Action. When you Dash you may jump once as a free action. Also, when you Dash you may either spend 1 Focus point to take the Disengage action at the same time you Dash, or you may spend 1 Focus point to make 1 Unarmed Strike.
Level 5:
Stunning Strike: When you use your Flurry of Blows feature, add 2 Unarmed Strikes instead of 1. Once per turn If you hit a creature that is large or smaller with an Unarmed Strike and have at least 1 hand free, you may attempt to grapple it. The attribute of your Unarmed Strike sets the save DC to avoid or escape the grapple.
Level 6:
Empowered Strikes: You may use your Martial Arts Die in place of the normal weapon attack dice when making melee attacks with Simple Weapons. At the end of a long or short rest, choose a weapon mastery that can be applied to light weapons. You may add this weapon mastery to your Unarmed Strikes or to melee attacks with 1-handed Improvised Weapons that have the Light property. You also learn the Topple Weapon Mastery and can use it on any Simple or Improvised melee weapons with the 2-Handed, Versatile or Reach propeperties.
Level 7:
Heightened Metabolism: When you use Martial Discipline to recover all of your expended Focus points by Meditating, you may also gain the benefits of a Short Rest. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a Long Rest.
Level 9:
Acrobatic Movement: You gain Expertise in Acrobatics and a climb speed equal to your movement speed. When you are not wearing armor or carrying a shield you may move at full speed across any physical surface that would not immediately inflict damage on contact and you ignore difficult terrain. If you stop on a surface the DM decides if you or the surface are at risk of falling. Example surfaces include liquids, tightropes, walls, and the tips of bamboo shoots.
Level 14:
Disciplined Survivor: Your physical and mental discipline give you proficiency in all saving throws. When you use Patient Defense, it lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 15
Perfect Discipline: After you roll initiative, you may use your reaction to immediately recover a number of expended Focus points equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Level 18
Superior Defense: When you use Patient Defense, you may either spend 1 Focus Point to reroll a failed saving throw or you may spend 1 Focus Point to force a creature attacking you to reroll their attack roll. They must accept the results of the second roll.
Level 20
Defy Death: when you are reduced to 0 hit points, you may immediately spend a number of Focus Points up to your Wisdom modifier. Roll a number of martial arts die equal to the number of Focus Points you spent and add your Constitution modifier to each die roll. You immediately regain that many HP. If you use this feature again before completing a Long Rest, you must use your remaining Hit Dice instead of your Martial Arts die.
being a helpless paladin with no ranged options is about stimulus and response. it's not that you have nothing to do, it's about what you do with what you have. adversity builds character. there is nothing story-building about a character or class that never experiences adversity because they have the right feature or spell or ability for everything. although, i suppose if everyone else around you is suffering when you do not then perhaps that's a lesson in privilege?
I didn't say no class should ever be able to face adversity, or that every class should have a perfect answer to literally any problem it is faced with. What is it with people on these forums and constantly arguing against things I have never said?
you're asking me? okay, well, maybe it has something to do with the vagueness of your setups. like "when surrounded or being focused upon" covers a lot of ground. and "more powers to establish them as being highly flexible" is kinda open ended. i know i get shot down most when i get specific (you yourself called me out for the kamehameha and water walking) but i still go that route sparingly (i think) as a sacrifice to the continuation of the conversation. also, speaking only for myself, it's not my intention to strawman you (although i'm aware that the paladin thing might be interpreted as a fallacy of appealing to extremes, but if you want the point you have to call it out.). however, a summarizing comment like "having answers to common problems," has no grips. it's too obviously true to agree with meaningfully and it's too broad to argue against.
maybe try shorter more frequent responses and see which ones hit and which miss? i'm not sure i'm the one to ask.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Why give them Light Armor training then have their 2nd level and 9th level feature require them to wear no armor. That’s counter productive.
I don’t like your version of Patient Defense, but I do like Patient Defense as a reaction.
Your FoB is fine. It works and solves some problems.
Your Stunning Strike doesn’t work for me and you should have renamed it. It’s not a stunning strike.
Your empowered strikes don’t help get passed resistances. You can’t off load this subclass or it ends up being like the cleric’s 8th level subclass feature which they moved to base class in these UAs.
Overall it was a good attempt, and I’m sure some will love your ideas. For the most part they aren’t the changes I want or believe the monk needs.
In fairness I wouldn't call it stunning strike either. But I did want it to fit exactly into the UA6 Monk table without changes. That said, Stunning Strike either needs to go or be moved to a much higher level where it can be rebalanced. It's simultaneously way too powerful for it's level and way too unreliable for a 5th level feature, so it either does absolutely nothing and puts the Monk in a bad spot without enough Ki or it ends what should have been a challenging encounter almost instantly. Much better to make the Monk more reliable and slightly more offensively powerful. Grappling also is a feature that opens up a variety of battlefield control and thematic options.
As for Empowered Strikes, I want the magical damage to become a part of the 6th level subclass feature. That way every Monk subclass has a unique magical damage type (or multiple types in the case of the Elements Monk). I see the magical damage as directly inspired by the mystical elements of each subclass, and that allows for a much broader spectrum of what the subclasses represent when you choose them. Keep in mind, this means that Monks still get their magical damage at 6th level. Functionally that doesn't change. The offensive bonus is to further offset the loss of Stunning Strike by letting players use their MA die with Simple Weapon Mastery options.
Acrobatic Movement gives Climbing Speed when armored. I really don't like the idea that a level up feature gives absolutely nothing if you are wearing armor and frankly the math consistently holds up that the Monk's PHB Unarmored Defense doesn't give enough benefit by itself. This feature, the free Step of the Wind Jump and Unarmored Movement's Dex Jump let you build a level of mobility that actually makes up for the lower AC by allowing players to navigate through obstacles and difficult terrain at full speed. Plus I love the idea that the Monk has superhuman parkour skills.
Patient Defense is definitely one thing that's overturned. But it solves the AC problem and it's pretty expensive with a reaction. It also periodically gets better, so players can get defense bonuses without following a rigid ASI progression.
In fairness I wouldn't call it stunning strike either. But I did want it to fit exactly into the UA6 Monk table without changes. That said, Stunning Strike either needs to go or be moved to a much higher level where it can be rebalanced. It's simultaneously way too powerful for it's level and way too unreliable for a 5th level feature, so it either does absolutely nothing and puts the Monk in a bad spot without enough Ki or it ends what should have been a challenging encounter almost instantly. Much better to make the Monk more reliable and slightly more offensively powerful. Grappling also is a feature that opens up a variety of battlefield control and thematic options.
As for Empowered Strikes, I want the magical damage to become a part of the 6th level subclass feature. That way every Monk subclass has a unique magical damage type (or multiple types in the case of the Elements Monk). I see the magical damage as directly inspired by the mystical elements of each subclass, and that allows for a much broader spectrum of what the subclasses represent when you choose them. Keep in mind, this means that Monks still get their magical damage at 6th level. Functionally that doesn't change. The offensive bonus is to further offset the loss of Stunning Strike by letting players use their MA die with Simple Weapon Mastery options.
Acrobatic Movement gives Climbing Speed when armored. I really don't like the idea that a level up feature gives absolutely nothing if you are wearing armor and frankly the math consistently holds up that the Monk's PHB Unarmored Defense doesn't give enough benefit by itself. This feature, the free Step of the Wind Jump and Unarmored Movement's Dex Jump let you build a level of mobility that actually makes up for the lower AC by allowing players to navigate through obstacles and difficult terrain at full speed. Plus I love the idea that the Monk has superhuman parkour skills.
Patient Defense is definitely one thing that's overturned. But it solves the AC problem and it's pretty expensive with a reaction. It also periodically gets better, so players can get defense bonuses without following a rigid ASI progression.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
So as a thought experiment I went through and redesigned the UA6 Monk into something that at least thematically I think fits in with some of the concepts that many players here have advocated for. I decided to focus on being a highly mobile skirmisher that is extremely skilled at getting across unusual terrain and having an extremely flexible action economy which uses their Action, Bonus Action and Reaction to improve mobility, offense, and defense. I also added a few features to make the class more flexible during construction but with a clear focus towards high Dexterity.
1: Players seem to like mobility, so I added to features that increased mobility. This resulted in changes to Unarmored Movement, Step of the Wind, and Acrobatic Movement. Step of the Wind and Acrobatic Movement got features that would be helpful in armor but also would improve the tradeoff of Unarmored Defense for dramatically improved traversal more in line with scenes from films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
2: Players have strong concerns about Ki/Discipline, so I changed the starting amount and also changed how it is recovered. Players start with Discipline + Wis mod after a long rest, and can meditate in the field to recover points at the rate of Wis mod per minute. This recovery option only occurs once per short or long rest. Heightened Metabolism stayed at 7th level and changed to giving the benefits of a Short Rest if players fully topped off their Discipline points during meditation. When this kicks in at 7th level, parties are conveniently getting to a point where many classes no longer feel like they need Short Rests. So this allows a Monk to always get at least 2 Discipline recharges per Long Rest from level 7 onwards.
3: Inflexible action economy is a common criticism of the Monk. Many features demand that the Monk choose to sacrifice either their Action or Bonus Action, so they either have a potentially strong offense or a potentially strong defense or potentially strong mobility but can't capitalize on it with their remaining action economy. I moved some features to reactions, and made other features function on top of features that can work in either the action or bonus action. For example, Flurry of Blows is one extra Unarmed Strike that you can make once per turn after making an attack with your action, bonus action, or reaction. Step of the Wind can now be triggered any time you Dash, and you choose to dash for no cost with your Bonus Action.
4: Players feel that Stunning Strike is stifling. I removed the Stun condition from Stunning Strike and instead it applies a variety of buffs to Unarmed Strikes including a free grapple. Given its woeful status in UA6, I think that the old Stunning Strike would be an amazing addition to the Open Hand monk at 11th level. To make up for the loss of Stunning Strike, I instead gave Monks a huge defensive buff.
4: Defense is a big deal and players feel the Monk doesn't get enough AC, HP or options for accessing magic armor. I gave Monks proficiency in Light Armor, a Fighting Style so they could choose either Defensive style or an offensive option to represent a particular Martial Arts tradition, and a reaction to increase their AC temporarily which grows in power and duration as the Monk levels up.
5: Since most of the "mystical" elements of the Monk are found in the subclasses, I focused on the physical attributes of the Monk for the core class. This allows each subclass to represent a different mystical tradition. I also believe that this allows for a more thematic way to introduce alternative damage types such as Force, Radiant, Necrotic, and the elemntal types.
6: I like the UA7 Brawler concept, so I applied some portions of it to the Monk core class. The core Monk gains proficiency in Improvised Weapons (that aren't heavy) and has an option to grapple opponents when it hits them with an Unarmed Strike.
Despite some terminology changes for Ki abilities, I believe that the proposed changes are 100% compatible with all released Monk subclasses.
Below is a mostly complete recreation using the UA6 terminology as a starting point for anyone who wishes to comment. It is probably a little overtuned, but I'd rather see it brought back into line if necessary than start weak and get weaker. Assume that all core features from UA6 as listed on the Monk Table are present at the same levels and same wording as is in the UA, unless they are overridden here (for example, Extra Attack is not altered in any way so it isn't mentioned here but it is assumed as a 5th level feature)
Martial Arts: Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapons, and Improvised Weapons. You gain the following benefits:
Bonus Unarmed Strike: When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapon or Improvised Weapon on your turn; or if you spend 1 or more Ki points as part of your action; you may make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks: You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons and Improvised Weapons except for those that have the Heavy property.
Martial Arts Die: You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage for your Unarmed Strike or Improvised Weapons. This die changes as you gain levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
Fighting Style: Gain a Fighting Style from the following list of your choice: Blind Fighting, Defense, Dueling, Dual Wielding, Thrown Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Level 2:
Martial Discipline: Your intense training has resulted in the ability to channel your discipline into bursts of intense focus. When you finish a Long Rest, gain a number of Focus points up to your Monk Level plus your Wisdom modifier. You may choose to Meditate to recover expended Focus points. To Meditate, you must spend at least 1 minute in quiet meditation during which you cannot take any actions, but you can walk at your unmodified movement speed. When you Meditate in this way, you recover a number of Focus Points equal to your Wisdom modifier for every minute you spend Meditating (minimum of 1 per minute). If you take any damage or use an action while meditating your meditation is interrupted and you do not recover any more Focus points. Once you have recovered any number of Focus points, you cannot Meditate to recover Focus again until you take a long or short rest.
Unarmored Movement: When not wearing armor or carrying a shield, your movement speed increases by 10 feet and increases again at certain levels as indicated on the Monk Table. Also, when not wearing armor or carrying a shield you may use your Dexterity instead of Strength when determining how far you can jump.
Flurry of Blows: Once per turn, when you make at least one Melee Weapon Attack or Unarmed Strike with your Action, Bonus Action or Reaction you may spend 1 Ki point to make 1 additional Unarmed Strike as part of that Action, Bonus Action or Reaction.
Patient Defense: When a creature you can see attempts to hit you with an attack, you may use your Reaction to increase your AC by 2 until the end of that creature's turn. If the creature misses with an attack, you may spend 1 Focus point to make 1 Unarmed Strike against that creature.
Step of the Wind: You may Dash as a Bonus Action. When you Dash you may jump once as a free action. Also, when you Dash you may either spend 1 Focus point to take the Disengage action at the same time you Dash, or you may spend 1 Focus point to make 1 Unarmed Strike.
Level 5:
Stunning Strike: When you use your Flurry of Blows feature, add 2 Unarmed Strikes instead of 1. Once per turn If you hit a creature that is large or smaller with an Unarmed Strike and have at least 1 hand free, you may attempt to grapple it. The attribute of your Unarmed Strike sets the save DC to avoid or escape the grapple.
Level 6:
Empowered Strikes: You may use your Martial Arts Die in place of the normal weapon attack dice when making melee attacks with Simple Weapons. At the end of a long or short rest, choose a weapon mastery that can be applied to light weapons. You may add this weapon mastery to your Unarmed Strikes or to melee attacks with 1-handed Improvised Weapons that have the Light property. You also learn the Topple Weapon Mastery and can use it on any Simple or Improvised melee weapons with the 2-Handed, Versatile or Reach propeperties.
Level 7:
Heightened Metabolism: When you use Martial Discipline to recover all of your expended Focus points by Meditating, you may also gain the benefits of a Short Rest. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a Long Rest.
Level 9:
Acrobatic Movement: You gain Expertise in Acrobatics and a climb speed equal to your movement speed. When you are not wearing armor or carrying a shield you may move at full speed across any physical surface that would not immediately inflict damage on contact and you ignore difficult terrain. If you stop on a surface the DM decides if you or the surface are at risk of falling. Example surfaces include liquids, tightropes, walls, and the tips of bamboo shoots.
Level 14:
Disciplined Survivor: Your physical and mental discipline give you proficiency in all saving throws. When you use Patient Defense, it lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 15
Perfect Discipline: After you roll initiative, you may use your reaction to immediately recover a number of expended Focus points equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Level 18
Superior Defense: When you use Patient Defense, you may either spend 1 Focus Point to reroll a failed saving throw or you may spend 1 Focus Point to force a creature attacking you to reroll their attack roll. They must accept the results of the second roll.
Level 20
Defy Death: when you are reduced to 0 hit points, you may immediately spend a number of Focus Points up to your Wisdom modifier. Roll a number of martial arts die equal to the number of Focus Points you spent and add your Constitution modifier to each die roll. You immediately regain that many HP. If you use this feature again before completing a Long Rest, you must use your remaining Hit Dice instead of your Martial Arts die.
I think its mostly decent. I think you are overestimating patient defense's power. Shield is a +5 reaction spell until your next turn, defensive duelist does +PB as a reaction I get that it also allows an attack, but one attack for 1 ki isnt that crazy. Maybe I would make it PB +AC. otherwise I like that its active. Also, at high levels, with monks AC, you kind of need the half damage of empty body. enemies with +13-+15 to hit, will hit 20-22AC a lot of the time, even with your forced reroll, they will hit often, and it will cost you Ki to fail.
step of the wind: looks fine except that jump can be done freely multiple times right now. Maybe you are thinking of the jump spell, Right now in 5er and 2014 you can jump as much as you want during your move. you simply can't exceed your speed.
personally defy death is substandard as a capstone, this is barbarian's mid level feature. but with a resource cost. Yours is fairly similar to theirs.
empowered on a subclass; if every subclass needs this, it shouldn't be in the subclass. Subclasses where a damage type is flavorful can modify it.
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A particularly radical way to handle monk is
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
It's not martial-caster divide, it's a specific problem with monk. There is just a massive paucity of creativity when it comes to the monk. I mean old 4 Elements monk was just a random collection of spells you could cast with ki.
Though I despise the giving away of damage + incapacitation to other classes via the new Smite spell, and Raduins Psychic Lance. They have really just given away and now nerfed the only cool thing about monk. It needs a significant redesign now.
well put sir .
this is all I was trying to say. you said in a much better way, respect.
Hoping next ua gives us some of this a little bit at least.
while this is true chaan Buddhism lends itself to being more secular as the focus is more on the practice and less on supernatural beliefs, this is even more true for Zen Buddhism wich sprang from chaan. while it doesn't mean all chaan buddist didnt have any supernatural beliefs the focus is mostly on meditation and attaining the right mental practice. Much of the training can overlap with meditational practices . alot of running, mediatizing under a waterfall and forms can all help someone progress, though meditation is the main outlet usually.
Yes that is a wonderful idea rum . I do hope they do so . more features and flavors are welcome.
I think your right Kreen,
if they boost that part of martials and the base classes are good then subclasses can be allowed to mix up the flavor more.
also many people don't realize that every caster even the half casters can generally out damage the fighter, who is the best warrior.
Having flexibility doesn't mean you can't also have a niche where you are strongest. Monks already have a degree of flexibility; they can activate Patient Defense when they need to avoid more incoming attacks, ideal when surrounded or being focused upon. It's not really tanking but then there isn't really any true tanking in 5th edition (the few builds that can include a "taunt" mechanic to push enemies to attack them can only do so in a very limited degree, and compelled duel is still better vs. a single target).
That's one of the big problems with the martial/caster divide; there is very little that martials do that casters can't do better with the right spell. So the first thing we need is for martials to carve out more areas where they can surpass casters, who have both flexibility and sheer power on their side already. The main advantage martials have at the moment is that they can do what they do without much setup (whereas casters may need to cast something in advance to boost their defense), but "always ready" and "staying power" don't really tell in the long run because casters gain resources extremely quickly, and most of their magic items only increase their options and resources.
For monk specifically, we get some early flexibility but it never really goes anywhere, and the only option that properly scales up is Stunning Strike (not anymore in OneD&D). This is why Monks really need more powers to establish them as being highly flexible martials as standard, and should improve upon that over time. Both fighter and monk should IMO be all-rounders to a degree, with fighter having the edge in raw damage and solid passive defences, while Monk should have more active abilities as that the player must choose between (a bit like a caster).
But that doesn't mean other martials couldn't do with some added flexibility as well; I think you're looking at the wrong areas though. It's not about every martial having the same specific powers ("kamehama blasts and water walking"), but about having answers to common problems, i.e- enemies being at range, being surrounded, etc. Not every martial needs to have the same answer to those problems, nor be as good in every area. Barbarian would be the obvious one to excel when surrounded because when faced with a horde you want them going after the barbarian rather than everyone else, but the barbarian should be able to hold their own for a while if needed. But that doesn't mean we couldn't do with sweeping attacks on fighters, or a multi-opportunity attack on Monk or such so they too have things they can do in the same situation, i.e- each class has an answer to some of the same areas, but those answers can be different.
Combining abilities with allies should always be the most powerful option, because it's a party-based game, but it'd be nice if martials weren't helpless in some scenarios without a caster to bail them out.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
But isn't that part of what subclasses are meant to do? Shoulder some of that weight? They're not just fluff, but various aspects of the base class to fulfill certain playstyles or fantasies.
My response was focused on this part of the quote "it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see one martial class that could, for instance, grapple two foes at once. or another that eventually masters the art of swinging a big damn axe in a whirlwind to take out many token foes."
We can already grapple two foes at once, if you have two free hands, with any class. But if you want to "build" a character to excel at grappling you have to make some choices, and subclass will be part of it. Which is why I mentioned Astral Self monk. The base classes are the Archetypes that then the subclasses expand upon. And I don't think we need base classes to be the "grappling class" or the "whirlwind axe of death" class. Which I responded to in a later post. The class is the foundation and if you want a niche build or a character with a narrow focus then subclasses are one of many ways to do just that.
D&D isn't a game with hundreds of classes to fit every possible niche. There are 13 classes. That's it. So subclasses have to take some of that "pressure" to fulfill the infinite number of character fantasies a player may come up with. And it's not necessarily to "make up for the base class's shortfalls". The example I quoted, grappling two foes/whirlwind axe, has nothing to do with any shortfalls. A fighter, who will eventually have 4 attacks, 5 if they also have a BA attack, can be that "eventually masters the art of swinging a big damn axe in a whirlwind to take out many token foes."
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I really like the idea of monk as half caster with a few monk custom spells. Since other half casters are also MAD it fits with precedent. Spell slots are great to make up for the lack of feats monk can take. Spell slots are a tried, tested and true resource pool where ki/discipline points are a BIG work in progress. I would be quite happy if they blew up the monk and made them a half caster.
don't like this at all. I Am not interested in being a caster as a monk, casters in general, or using a spell slot based resource system. I have played casters at times and enjoyed them, but spell slots was just something I put up with.
ideally for me, monks would be at will, per encounter and some short rest based features
honestly, i'm not certain that martials can carve out utility better than casters. any space that might have been left, some industrious mage decided was a chance to get their name in the books. some martials can climb walls better than anyone, for instance, and perhaps it would make sense to limit which caster spell lists included spider climb. but when a party that does not include that martial or that caster reaches this climbing obstacle... someone's still bound to have some rope. any niche you can think of is likely accomplishable by some length of rope, a 10-foot pole, a bucket, a piece of chalk, or some kindling. or the party's obligatory 3+ familiars.
i'm reminded of a situation in critical role season 2 where the party had to cross a river. one person swam while another water walked, and both got a rope across for the team with time and effort and ability checks. then someone else parted the waters like moses and rule of cool'd the rest of the party across anyway. and i recall the reaction being something like "oh, right. you can do that." and my first thought was that obstacles like that are put in place to highlight abilities. like giving the rogue some boxes to pick open and the ranger some tracks to follow. i'm not sure who the river was 'for,' but it certainly turned out to be no obstacle at all. so... maybe this whole things is moot and it's up to the table to determine who gets to open their bag of tricks, no one taking all the fun all the time? i don't know.
and anyway, casters would be a lot more restricted if dms held them to the built in restraints of spell components and smart enemies. sometimes it feels like the casters are playing this game and it's up to the martials to save them spell slots and play bodyguard. which, honestly might be an interesting place to lean into. if casting a fireball was something you started on your initiative but finished on some later initiative (or next round), there'd be some interesting decisions to make regarding how to avoid being interrupted.
monk had a handful of powers to be flexible, but they were given over to rogue's cunning strike. also they weren't monk powers, they were open hand powers. and rogue didn't hide those in a subclass, that became a base ability which is expanded upon by the subclasses. similarly, flurry of blows could be a vehicle for different flavors of disable and control. brawler subclass can add sap/slow/vex to any rock that catches their eye, so surely some monk's master will have figured it out by UA8, right?
being a helpless paladin with no ranged options is about stimulus and response. it's not that you have nothing to do, it's about what you do with what you have. adversity builds character. there is nothing story-building about a character or class that never experiences adversity because they have the right feature or spell or ability for everything. although, i suppose if everyone else around you is suffering when you do not then perhaps that's a lesson in privilege?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
could we assume i added "effectively" to the end of the "grapple two" thing? because weathering two saving throws (to avoid), two ability checks (to escape), and then two attacks (to the face!) all while having sacrificed a round of damage abilities and tanked your own movement seems like a risky venture that could be improved upon over time.
"it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see one martial class that could, for instance, grapple two foes at once effectively."
brawler subclass addresses this briefly at level 7 (1d6 damage for only one foe) and level 10 (advantage to unarmed strikes against grappled) but no mention of the sound of two hollow coconuts knocking together. a shame. however, grappling is only niche because of all the general escapes built in. it is unreliable and inefficient. if a class like monk was given a hefty bonus to unarmed attacks against specifically humanoids [who are wearing clothing or armor to grab] then grapples might become a more sure thing. a training-and-insight-based focus on bipeds similar to ranger class focus on animals/monsters/etc. from there it could be subclasses that describe how the monk uses the foes as weapons or shields on the front line. but it has to start from the foundation, from the base.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Ok, effectively grapple two foes at once. You are correct that this is harder to do in 1DD with the change to saving throws instead of ability checks. You really have limited options to improve except get your STR up to increase DC. In 5e you at least had your proficiency, expertise, and ways of gaining advantage on ability checks.
Brawlers a just a mess. I did the survey this morning and told them this. I like the idea, but it's like they took the Unarmed Fighting Style, Tavern Brawler feat and Grappler feat, mashed them together and said, "here's your new subclass" basically most of the features boil down to this. They need more to it. Going Battle Master fighter and taking Unarmed fighting style and Tavern Brawler (maybe even Grappler although it sucks) and you basically have most of Brawler with all your Superiority dice and Maneuvers on top of that.
And you are correct, the foundation of the class has to be good to build upon. I've never said the monk base class was good. It's the reason I started this thread, and many others about the monk, because I think it needs work. And I'm hoping UA8 has some surprises in it for the monk. I put that in my survey too, at the end. Don't screw up the monk, was how I put it, even though it wasn't part of this UA the revisions were disappointing (well, Shadow and Elements were good).
And I think this what I have been trying to say. Make the base class good. Then, if you want niche builds or certain flavors or fantasies you want fulfilled, the subclass system is part of the way to do this.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I didn't say no class should ever be able to face adversity, or that every class should have a perfect answer to literally any problem it is faced with. What is it with people on these forums and constantly arguing against things I have never said?
I said martials need to be more flexible to compete better with casters. I did not say they should have no weakness, or that that flexibility should allow them to excel at everything. Having an answer to being surrounded does not mean you tick a box and instantly win the fight, it does not mean you are the best at being surrounded, it just means you have something you can do without having to rely on a caster to bail you out While I didn't actually say it the inverse is also true; a number of spells desperately need to be made weaker so they stop enabling casters to be better than every other class at what they're supposed to be best at.
Not that I expect that from OneD&D given that Wizards of the Coast has now tried multiple times in the playtests so far to make invisibility hands down the most powerful stealth option in the entire game, and keeps giving all of the best new features to the already powerful casters.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
So as a thought experiment I went through and redesigned the UA6 Monk into something that at least thematically I think fits in with some of the concepts that many players here have advocated for. I decided to focus on being a highly mobile skirmisher that is extremely skilled at getting across unusual terrain and having an extremely flexible action economy which uses their Action, Bonus Action and Reaction to improve mobility, offense, and defense. I also added a few features to make the class more flexible during construction but with a clear focus towards high Dexterity.
1: Players seem to like mobility, so I added to features that increased mobility. This resulted in changes to Unarmored Movement, Step of the Wind, and Acrobatic Movement. Step of the Wind and Acrobatic Movement got features that would be helpful in armor but also would improve the tradeoff of Unarmored Defense for dramatically improved traversal more in line with scenes from films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
2: Players have strong concerns about Ki/Discipline, so I changed the starting amount and also changed how it is recovered. Players start with Discipline + Wis mod after a long rest, and can meditate in the field to recover points at the rate of Wis mod per minute. This recovery option only occurs once per short or long rest. Heightened Metabolism stayed at 7th level and changed to giving the benefits of a Short Rest if players fully topped off their Discipline points during meditation. When this kicks in at 7th level, parties are conveniently getting to a point where many classes no longer feel like they need Short Rests. So this allows a Monk to always get at least 2 Discipline recharges per Long Rest from level 7 onwards.
3: Inflexible action economy is a common criticism of the Monk. Many features demand that the Monk choose to sacrifice either their Action or Bonus Action, so they either have a potentially strong offense or a potentially strong defense or potentially strong mobility but can't capitalize on it with their remaining action economy. I moved some features to reactions, and made other features function on top of features that can work in either the action or bonus action. For example, Flurry of Blows is one extra Unarmed Strike that you can make once per turn after making an attack with your action, bonus action, or reaction. Step of the Wind can now be triggered any time you Dash, and you choose to dash for no cost with your Bonus Action.
4: Players feel that Stunning Strike is stifling. I removed the Stun condition from Stunning Strike and instead it applies a variety of buffs to Unarmed Strikes including a free grapple. Given its woeful status in UA6, I think that the old Stunning Strike would be an amazing addition to the Open Hand monk at 11th level. To make up for the loss of Stunning Strike, I instead gave Monks a huge defensive buff.
4: Defense is a big deal and players feel the Monk doesn't get enough AC, HP or options for accessing magic armor. I gave Monks proficiency in Light Armor, a Fighting Style so they could choose either Defensive style or an offensive option to represent a particular Martial Arts tradition, and a reaction to increase their AC temporarily which grows in power and duration as the Monk levels up.
5: Since most of the "mystical" elements of the Monk are found in the subclasses, I focused on the physical attributes of the Monk for the core class. This allows each subclass to represent a different mystical tradition. I also believe that this allows for a more thematic way to introduce alternative damage types such as Force, Radiant, Necrotic, and the elemntal types.
6: I like the UA7 Brawler concept, so I applied some portions of it to the Monk core class. The core Monk gains proficiency in Improvised Weapons (that aren't heavy) and has an option to grapple opponents when it hits them with an Unarmed Strike.
Despite some terminology changes for Ki abilities, I believe that the proposed changes are 100% compatible with all released Monk subclasses.
Below is a mostly complete recreation using the UA6 terminology as a starting point for anyone who wishes to comment. It is probably a little overtuned, but I'd rather see it brought back into line if necessary than start weak and get weaker. Assume that all core features from UA6 as listed on the Monk Table are present at the same levels and same wording as is in the UA, unless they are overridden here (for example, Extra Attack is not altered in any way so it isn't mentioned here but it is assumed as a 5th level feature)
you're asking me? okay, well, maybe it has something to do with the vagueness of your setups. like "when surrounded or being focused upon" covers a lot of ground. and "more powers to establish them as being highly flexible" is kinda open ended. i know i get shot down most when i get specific (you yourself called me out for the kamehameha and water walking) but i still go that route sparingly (i think) as a sacrifice to the continuation of the conversation. also, speaking only for myself, it's not my intention to strawman you (although i'm aware that the paladin thing might be interpreted as a fallacy of appealing to extremes, but if you want the point you have to call it out.). however, a summarizing comment like "having answers to common problems," has no grips. it's too obviously true to agree with meaningfully and it's too broad to argue against.
maybe try shorter more frequent responses and see which ones hit and which miss? i'm not sure i'm the one to ask.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Why give them Light Armor training then have their 2nd level and 9th level feature require them to wear no armor. That’s counter productive.
I don’t like your version of Patient Defense, but I do like Patient Defense as a reaction.
Your FoB is fine. It works and solves some problems.
Your Stunning Strike doesn’t work for me and you should have renamed it. It’s not a stunning strike.
Your empowered strikes don’t help get passed resistances. You can’t off load this subclass or it ends up being like the cleric’s 8th level subclass feature which they moved to base class in these UAs.
Overall it was a good attempt, and I’m sure some will love your ideas. For the most part they aren’t the changes I want or believe the monk needs.
Thanks for your input.
In fairness I wouldn't call it stunning strike either. But I did want it to fit exactly into the UA6 Monk table without changes. That said, Stunning Strike either needs to go or be moved to a much higher level where it can be rebalanced. It's simultaneously way too powerful for it's level and way too unreliable for a 5th level feature, so it either does absolutely nothing and puts the Monk in a bad spot without enough Ki or it ends what should have been a challenging encounter almost instantly. Much better to make the Monk more reliable and slightly more offensively powerful. Grappling also is a feature that opens up a variety of battlefield control and thematic options.
As for Empowered Strikes, I want the magical damage to become a part of the 6th level subclass feature. That way every Monk subclass has a unique magical damage type (or multiple types in the case of the Elements Monk). I see the magical damage as directly inspired by the mystical elements of each subclass, and that allows for a much broader spectrum of what the subclasses represent when you choose them. Keep in mind, this means that Monks still get their magical damage at 6th level. Functionally that doesn't change. The offensive bonus is to further offset the loss of Stunning Strike by letting players use their MA die with Simple Weapon Mastery options.
Acrobatic Movement gives Climbing Speed when armored. I really don't like the idea that a level up feature gives absolutely nothing if you are wearing armor and frankly the math consistently holds up that the Monk's PHB Unarmored Defense doesn't give enough benefit by itself. This feature, the free Step of the Wind Jump and Unarmored Movement's Dex Jump let you build a level of mobility that actually makes up for the lower AC by allowing players to navigate through obstacles and difficult terrain at full speed. Plus I love the idea that the Monk has superhuman parkour skills.
Patient Defense is definitely one thing that's overturned. But it solves the AC problem and it's pretty expensive with a reaction. It also periodically gets better, so players can get defense bonuses without following a rigid ASI progression.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
I think its mostly decent. I think you are overestimating patient defense's power. Shield is a +5 reaction spell until your next turn, defensive duelist does +PB as a reaction I get that it also allows an attack, but one attack for 1 ki isnt that crazy. Maybe I would make it PB +AC. otherwise I like that its active. Also, at high levels, with monks AC, you kind of need the half damage of empty body. enemies with +13-+15 to hit, will hit 20-22AC a lot of the time, even with your forced reroll, they will hit often, and it will cost you Ki to fail.
step of the wind: looks fine except that jump can be done freely multiple times right now. Maybe you are thinking of the jump spell, Right now in 5er and 2014 you can jump as much as you want during your move. you simply can't exceed your speed.
personally defy death is substandard as a capstone, this is barbarian's mid level feature. but with a resource cost. Yours is fairly similar to theirs.
empowered on a subclass; if every subclass needs this, it shouldn't be in the subclass. Subclasses where a damage type is flavorful can modify it.