In fairness I wouldn't call it stunning strike either. But I did want it to fit exactly into the UA6 Monk table without changes. That said, Stunning Strike either needs to go or be moved to a much higher level where it can be rebalanced. It's simultaneously way too powerful for it's level and way too unreliable for a 5th level feature, so it either does absolutely nothing and puts the Monk in a bad spot without enough Ki or it ends what should have been a challenging encounter almost instantly. Much better to make the Monk more reliable and slightly more offensively powerful. Grappling also is a feature that opens up a variety of battlefield control and thematic options.
As for Empowered Strikes, I want the magical damage to become a part of the 6th level subclass feature. That way every Monk subclass has a unique magical damage type (or multiple types in the case of the Elements Monk). I see the magical damage as directly inspired by the mystical elements of each subclass, and that allows for a much broader spectrum of what the subclasses represent when you choose them. Keep in mind, this means that Monks still get their magical damage at 6th level. Functionally that doesn't change. The offensive bonus is to further offset the loss of Stunning Strike by letting players use their MA die with Simple Weapon Mastery options.
Acrobatic Movement gives Climbing Speed when armored. I really don't like the idea that a level up feature gives absolutely nothing if you are wearing armor and frankly the math consistently holds up that the Monk's PHB Unarmored Defense doesn't give enough benefit by itself. This feature, the free Step of the Wind Jump and Unarmored Movement's Dex Jump let you build a level of mobility that actually makes up for the lower AC by allowing players to navigate through obstacles and difficult terrain at full speed. Plus I love the idea that the Monk has superhuman parkour skills.
Patient Defense is definitely one thing that's overturned. But it solves the AC problem and it's pretty expensive with a reaction. It also periodically gets better, so players can get defense bonuses without following a rigid ASI progression.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
I'd like to remind you that Hold Person is both a 2nd-level spell and only affects humanoids, meaning it's useless against dragon, monstrosities, undead, and anything else which lacks the humanoid subtype. And Tasha's Hideous Laughter not only gives repeat chances to save every time the target takes damage, but it won't affect anything with an Intelligence greater than 4. That already eliminates oozes, most beasts, some constructs (including most golems) and plants, and even some monstrosities like an ankheg, gorgon, or hydra.
Yes, both spells are powerful for their level, no one here denies that, but they're also limited in scope. Stunning Strike works on everything, and it shuts down both reactions and their next action; which may very well include Multiattack. If you think it's weak, that's why.
There are two kinds of power: hard and soft. Hard power is something specialized, focused on a particular niche, and highly effective in that area. Soft power isn't nearly as effective, but it's versatile. It's the whole saying, "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one," put into practice. Whether you believe that or not is something only you can answer. D&D does tend to reward specialization, and it's worth wondering if a 5th-level class feature should continue to be as effective 10 levels later...or if it should be upgraded in some capacity.
So as a thought experiment I went through and redesigned the UA6 Monk into something that at least thematically I think fits in with some of the concepts that many players here have advocated for. I decided to focus on being a highly mobile skirmisher that is extremely skilled at getting across unusual terrain and having an extremely flexible action economy which uses their Action, Bonus Action and Reaction to improve mobility, offense, and defense. I also added a few features to make the class more flexible during construction but with a clear focus towards high Dexterity.
1: Players seem to like mobility, so I added to features that increased mobility. This resulted in changes to Unarmored Movement, Step of the Wind, and Acrobatic Movement. Step of the Wind and Acrobatic Movement got features that would be helpful in armor but also would improve the tradeoff of Unarmored Defense for dramatically improved traversal more in line with scenes from films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
2: Players have strong concerns about Ki/Discipline, so I changed the starting amount and also changed how it is recovered. Players start with Discipline + Wis mod after a long rest, and can meditate in the field to recover points at the rate of Wis mod per minute. This recovery option only occurs once per short or long rest. Heightened Metabolism stayed at 7th level and changed to giving the benefits of a Short Rest if players fully topped off their Discipline points during meditation. When this kicks in at 7th level, parties are conveniently getting to a point where many classes no longer feel like they need Short Rests. So this allows a Monk to always get at least 2 Discipline recharges per Long Rest from level 7 onwards.
3: Inflexible action economy is a common criticism of the Monk. Many features demand that the Monk choose to sacrifice either their Action or Bonus Action, so they either have a potentially strong offense or a potentially strong defense or potentially strong mobility but can't capitalize on it with their remaining action economy. I moved some features to reactions, and made other features function on top of features that can work in either the action or bonus action. For example, Flurry of Blows is one extra Unarmed Strike that you can make once per turn after making an attack with your action, bonus action, or reaction. Step of the Wind can now be triggered any time you Dash, and you choose to dash for no cost with your Bonus Action.
4: Players feel that Stunning Strike is stifling. I removed the Stun condition from Stunning Strike and instead it applies a variety of buffs to Unarmed Strikes including a free grapple. Given its woeful status in UA6, I think that the old Stunning Strike would be an amazing addition to the Open Hand monk at 11th level. To make up for the loss of Stunning Strike, I instead gave Monks a huge defensive buff.
4: Defense is a big deal and players feel the Monk doesn't get enough AC, HP or options for accessing magic armor. I gave Monks proficiency in Light Armor, a Fighting Style so they could choose either Defensive style or an offensive option to represent a particular Martial Arts tradition, and a reaction to increase their AC temporarily which grows in power and duration as the Monk levels up.
5: Since most of the "mystical" elements of the Monk are found in the subclasses, I focused on the physical attributes of the Monk for the core class. This allows each subclass to represent a different mystical tradition. I also believe that this allows for a more thematic way to introduce alternative damage types such as Force, Radiant, Necrotic, and the elemntal types.
6: I like the UA7 Brawler concept, so I applied some portions of it to the Monk core class. The core Monk gains proficiency in Improvised Weapons (that aren't heavy) and has an option to grapple opponents when it hits them with an Unarmed Strike.
Despite some terminology changes for Ki abilities, I believe that the proposed changes are 100% compatible with all released Monk subclasses.
Below is a mostly complete recreation using the UA6 terminology as a starting point for anyone who wishes to comment. It is probably a little overtuned, but I'd rather see it brought back into line if necessary than start weak and get weaker. Assume that all core features from UA6 as listed on the Monk Table are present at the same levels and same wording as is in the UA, unless they are overridden here (for example, Extra Attack is not altered in any way so it isn't mentioned here but it is assumed as a 5th level feature)
Martial Arts: Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapons, and Improvised Weapons. You gain the following benefits:
Bonus Unarmed Strike: When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapon or Improvised Weapon on your turn; or if you spend 1 or more Ki points as part of your action; you may make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks: You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons and Improvised Weapons except for those that have the Heavy property.
Martial Arts Die: You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage for your Unarmed Strike or Improvised Weapons. This die changes as you gain levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
Fighting Style: Gain a Fighting Style from the following list of your choice: Blind Fighting, Defense, Dueling, Dual Wielding, Thrown Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Level 2:
Martial Discipline: Your intense training has resulted in the ability to channel your discipline into bursts of intense focus. When you finish a Long Rest, gain a number of Focus points up to your Monk Level plus your Wisdom modifier. You may choose to Meditate to recover expended Focus points. To Meditate, you must spend at least 1 minute in quiet meditation during which you cannot take any actions, but you can walk at your unmodified movement speed. When you Meditate in this way, you recover a number of Focus Points equal to your Wisdom modifier for every minute you spend Meditating (minimum of 1 per minute). If you take any damage or use an action while meditating your meditation is interrupted and you do not recover any more Focus points. Once you have recovered any number of Focus points, you cannot Meditate to recover Focus again until you take a long or short rest.
Unarmored Movement: When not wearing armor or carrying a shield, your movement speed increases by 10 feet and increases again at certain levels as indicated on the Monk Table. Also, when not wearing armor or carrying a shield you may use your Dexterity instead of Strength when determining how far you can jump.
Flurry of Blows: Once per turn, when you make at least one Melee Weapon Attack or Unarmed Strike with your Action, Bonus Action or Reaction you may spend 1 Ki point to make 1 additional Unarmed Strike as part of that Action, Bonus Action or Reaction.
Patient Defense: When a creature you can see attempts to hit you with an attack, you may use your Reaction to increase your AC by 2 until the end of that creature's turn. If the creature misses with an attack, you may spend 1 Focus point to make 1 Unarmed Strike against that creature.
Step of the Wind: You may Dash as a Bonus Action. When you Dash you may jump once as a free action. Also, when you Dash you may either spend 1 Focus point to take the Disengage action at the same time you Dash, or you may spend 1 Focus point to make 1 Unarmed Strike.
Level 5:
Stunning Strike: When you use your Flurry of Blows feature, add 2 Unarmed Strikes instead of 1. Once per turn If you hit a creature that is large or smaller with an Unarmed Strike and have at least 1 hand free, you may attempt to grapple it. The attribute of your Unarmed Strike sets the save DC to avoid or escape the grapple.
Level 6:
Empowered Strikes: You may use your Martial Arts Die in place of the normal weapon attack dice when making melee attacks with Simple Weapons. At the end of a long or short rest, choose a weapon mastery that can be applied to light weapons. You may add this weapon mastery to your Unarmed Strikes or to melee attacks with 1-handed Improvised Weapons that have the Light property. You also learn the Topple Weapon Mastery and can use it on any Simple or Improvised melee weapons with the 2-Handed, Versatile or Reach propeperties.
Level 7:
Heightened Metabolism: When you use Martial Discipline to recover all of your expended Focus points by Meditating, you may also gain the benefits of a Short Rest. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a Long Rest.
Level 9:
Acrobatic Movement: You gain Expertise in Acrobatics and a climb speed equal to your movement speed. When you are not wearing armor or carrying a shield you may move at full speed across any physical surface that would not immediately inflict damage on contact and you ignore difficult terrain. If you stop on a surface the DM decides if you or the surface are at risk of falling. Example surfaces include liquids, tightropes, walls, and the tips of bamboo shoots.
Level 14:
Disciplined Survivor: Your physical and mental discipline give you proficiency in all saving throws. When you use Patient Defense, it lasts until the start of your next turn.
Level 15
Perfect Discipline: After you roll initiative, you may use your reaction to immediately recover a number of expended Focus points equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Level 18
Superior Defense: When you use Patient Defense, you may either spend 1 Focus Point to reroll a failed saving throw or you may spend 1 Focus Point to force a creature attacking you to reroll their attack roll. They must accept the results of the second roll.
Level 20
Defy Death: when you are reduced to 0 hit points, you may immediately spend a number of Focus Points up to your Wisdom modifier. Roll a number of martial arts die equal to the number of Focus Points you spent and add your Constitution modifier to each die roll. You immediately regain that many HP. If you use this feature again before completing a Long Rest, you must use your remaining Hit Dice instead of your Martial Arts die.
I think its mostly decent. I think you are overestimating patient defense's power. Shield is a +5 reaction spell until your next turn, defensive duelist does +PB as a reaction I get that it also allows an attack, but one attack for 1 ki isnt that crazy. Maybe I would make it PB +AC. otherwise I like that its active. Also, at high levels, with monks AC, you kind of need the half damage of empty body. enemies with +13-+15 to hit, will hit 20-22AC a lot of the time, even with your forced reroll, they will hit often, and it will cost you Ki to fail.
step of the wind: looks fine except that jump can be done freely multiple times right now. Maybe you are thinking of the jump spell, Right now in 5er and 2014 you can jump as much as you want during your move. you simply can't exceed your speed.
personally defy death is substandard as a capstone, this is barbarian's mid level feature. but with a resource cost. Yours is fairly similar to theirs.
empowered on a subclass; if every subclass needs this, it shouldn't be in the subclass. Subclasses where a damage type is flavorful can modify it.
Patient Defense is really powerful but I didn't highlight it will enough if this is your reaction.
Basically, PD allows you to enter a state where you can hit back if the enemy creature misses you. But since you can hit back, once during your reaction you canFlurry of Blows when the enemy misses you for 2 Ki points. And then continue to hit other targets once each of they miss
This is expensive, but making up to 3 unarmed strikes back to multiple enemies when each one misses you means that this becomes more and more powerful over time as you get more Ki and better MA dice. But it's also expensive, and you lose your AoO and other reactions. This is your answer for "what happens if my squishy skirmisher gets stuck in melee and can't escape."
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
Hold Monster is a 5th level spell. But none of the Hold spells are a fair comparison because paralyzed is much stronger than stunned and they last for up to a minute. Also it would be a strange and rare circumstance where it’s best to use your action to cure stunned so someone else could use their action. The reason to cure the hold spells is because they could persist. Hold spells will also commonly come from casters with higher save DCs than a Monk’s stunning strike, but since some many classes have access to hold spells that might not always be true.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
Hold Person is cast with the primary combat attribute of the spellcaster since spellcasters use their spellcasting attribute in combat. Monks have to use their non-combat attribute to set save DC (except for Astral Self monks).
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
In normal lower level encounters against a generic group of monsters, Stunning Strike doesn't terribly change the encounter. The problem is that when up against a powerful enemy such as a BBEG or a powerful monster, it essentially turns that monster "off." These powerful enemies usually have counterplay options to spellcasters - resistance to magical effects, improved saves vs magical effects, Legendary Resistance and a host of minions to break a caster's concentration. Stunning Strike bypasses all of these issues except Legendary Resistance, and it can potentially be used far more frequently even at low levels.
The potential outcome of Stunning Strike is so powerful that it warps the entire class around this one ability that is thereafter ignored for the remaining 15 levels of play. Because of this, the next 15 levels are woefully under-developed and railroad you into a strict ASI progression to maximize the chances of a successful Stunning Strike.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
hold monster targets a weaker save
hold monster can last more than one turn.
(1) You are incorrect, only attacks within 5ft are auto-crits on a paralyzed creature, which means there is like 2 spells in the whole game that can get auto-crits. (2) While Hold Monster could last more than one round, I have never ever seen it last more than 1 round because the enemies very logically focus fire on the caster of Hold Monster to break their concentration. Or an enemy caster will end it on their turn through Dispel Magic, or Lesser Restoration.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
stunning strike doesnt end a challenging encounter, it stops an enemy for 1 turn. There are many ways to do this, and at level 5, stopping a single enemy for one turn saves you like one attack. Hold person is a level 1 spell, and can last multiple turns. Hideous laughter is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns. Sleep is a level 1 spell and lasts multiple turns.
At level 5, each stunning strike you attempt takes away one attack in that fight. Since its like a 50% chance, thats usually 2ki, or -2 attacks. Stunning strike is good, but its not really as good as people think it is. Many mages don't choose those answers given the option.
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster deals 0 damage and takes your entire action, Stunning strike can be added onto any attack without affecting that turn's DPR.
Hold Monster can be broken/blocked by : breaking the caster's concentration, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Freedom of Movement, Lesser Restoration or Legendary Resistance; Stunning Strike can only be blocked by Legendary Resistance, and only cured by Mercy Monks or Power Word Heal.
Hold Monster has a chance to last more than one round, but is also likely to last less than 1 round (see above), Stunning Strike always lasts the full round, even if the monk gets killed during that time.
Hold Monster can be cast at range, Stunning Strike requires you to be in melee.
Hold Monster melee attacks are autocrits.
An 8th level Wizard can cast Hold Monster 3 times per day, an 8th level Monk can use Stunning Strike 16 times per day.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
hold monster targets a weaker save
hold monster can last more than one turn.
(1) You are incorrect, only attacks within 5ft are auto-crits on a paralyzed creature, which means there is like 2 spells in the whole game that can get auto-crits. (2) While Hold Monster could last more than one round, I have never ever seen it last more than 1 round because the enemies very logically focus fire on the caster of Hold Monster to break their concentration. Or an enemy caster will end it on their turn through Dispel Magic, or Lesser Restoration.
uh, anyone can be within five ft of the enemy. I would get close for double damage. It doesnt say melee attacks it says five feet range. Scorching ray critical is pretty strong at any level. And its a spell meant to set up team dps.
you apparently engage in fights where the monsters have every thing they need to do whatever they want in all situations, because many monsters and encounters couldn't or wouldbt focus a caster in one turn. Your casters are also surprisingly paper, because casters i see, who go concentration, are extremely difficult to break concentration. I was tanking like a champ on sorcerer and bard with concentration spells.
uh, anyone can be within five ft of the enemy. I would get close for double damage. It doesnt say melee attacks it says five feet range. Scorching ray critical is pretty strong at any level. And its a spell meant to set up team dps.
you apparently engage in fights where the monsters have every thing they need to do whatever they want in all situations, because many monsters and encounters couldn't or wouldbt focus a caster in one turn. Your casters are also surprisingly paper, because casters i see, who go concentration, are extremely difficult to break concentration. I was tanking like a champ on sorcerer and bard with concentration spells.
That could certainly be the case, but we tend to play almost exclusively Deadly combats because you kind of need to for short adventuring days to feel challenging, so the average enemy round can drop any character to 0 hp if the enemies focus fire.
Mathematically, stunning strike is usually more valuable than an extra use of flurry of blows when the target is CR 3 or higher (though it varies somewhat with the monster); it's not worthwhile on chaff.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
A lot of the reason attack is higher priority than save DC is because physical attack stats generally add to both damage and success chance, whereas save modifiers only affect success chance. For a first level fighter attacking with a d8 weapon and dueling fighting style, going from a 14 strength to a 16 changes your damage from +4/1d8+4 to +5/1d8+5. Against an AC 12 target, the first is 5.75 damage on average, the second is 6.875 damage (+20%) average damage. By comparison, going from save stat 14 to Int 16 against a target with a +0 save is
+9% (55% -> 60%) on an effect that is save negates, such as command
+3% (average effect 77.5% -> 80%) on an effect that is save for half, such as burning hands
+23% (average duration 1.22 -> 1.50) on an effect that is save ends, such as hideous laughter (though a lot of the difference in duration is caused by a long tail that rarely matters in combat; if you only count the first two turns it's 0.8525 -> 0.96, or +12%).
Thus, other than save ends effects, which there aren't a ton of on half-caster lists (though there are outliers such as hold person on oath of vengeance) it's really not that critical to crank up save DC.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
Just going to say that with the only once per turn factor the hit chance of the attacks is not super relevant for whether or not stunning strike lands. Only one attack needs to land and then you spend the ki point, you don't spend it before hand. So the only % that is really relevant is the % chance for them to fail the save. This was slightly different before because it could be used on every attack so the odds of landing it would go much higher than just the % one try. Either way con is usually one of the highest saves and one of the highest stats for monsters meaning even with max dedication the odds of landing it is still 50%. However, the monks power with this feature is to gauge when and when not to use it. If you are fighting a big beefy guy, probably don't use it on him. If you see a spell caster go shut it down with stunning strike, they historically have very low con saves.
Edit: further there is the issue where there isn't much, if anything, in terms of magic items that can boost the monk's DC's. But there are magic items to boost attacks. Honestly, it is why sometimes i feel boosting wisdom is more important than boosting dex, because you have enough attacks that one is going to land and wisdom bumps your AC just as much as dex does anyway, you are never going to out damage the other martials anyway that stunning strike is the whole reason for the class in its current iteration as far as I can tell.
Change to a wisdom-based spellcaster (probably half) with some special abilities that boost functioning as desired -- for example, might be "monk spells that normally take an action to cast, when cast on the monk and no other targets, may be cast as a bonus action".
Unarmored Defense -> Mage Armor on spell list.
Flurry of Blows -> new custom spell.
Patient Defense -> Shield of Faith on spell list.. Or a new spell. Or Shield.
Step of the Wind -> Expeditious Retreat on spell list..
Unarmored Movement -> Longstrider on spell list.
Deflect Missiles -> Shield on spell list (or a new spell)
Slow Fall -> Feather Fall on spell list.
Stunning Strike -> new Smite type spell.
Acrobatic Movement -> Spider Climb and Walk on Water on spell list.
Self-Restoration -> Lesser Restoration on spell list.
Deflect Energy -> Mostly covered by Shield, but we can add Absorb Elements or Protection from Energy to the spell list.
The ease of doing this mapping ... says something about the martial/caster divide.
I really like the idea of monk as half caster with a few monk custom spells. Since other half casters are also MAD it fits with precedent. Spell slots are great to make up for the lack of feats monk can take. Spell slots are a tried, tested and true resource pool where ki/discipline points are a BIG work in progress. I would be quite happy if they blew up the monk and made them a half caster.
I rather like the idea of the Monk as a half martial / half caster. And it parallels the broad strokes comparison of the Monk and Paladin (spiritual monastic warriors).
And since so many of those spells are Arcane, it would also do well as the “missing” Martial/Arcane hybrid class.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'd like to remind you that Hold Person is both a 2nd-level spell and only affects humanoids, meaning it's useless against dragon, monstrosities, undead, and anything else which lacks the humanoid subtype. And Tasha's Hideous Laughter not only gives repeat chances to save every time the target takes damage, but it won't affect anything with an Intelligence greater than 4. That already eliminates oozes, most beasts, some constructs (including most golems) and plants, and even some monstrosities like an ankheg, gorgon, or hydra.
Yes, both spells are powerful for their level, no one here denies that, but they're also limited in scope. Stunning Strike works on everything, and it shuts down both reactions and their next action; which may very well include Multiattack. If you think it's weak, that's why.
There are two kinds of power: hard and soft. Hard power is something specialized, focused on a particular niche, and highly effective in that area. Soft power isn't nearly as effective, but it's versatile. It's the whole saying, "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one," put into practice. Whether you believe that or not is something only you can answer. D&D does tend to reward specialization, and it's worth wondering if a 5th-level class feature should continue to be as effective 10 levels later...or if it should be upgraded in some capacity.
Patient Defense is really powerful but I didn't highlight it will enough if this is your reaction.
Basically, PD allows you to enter a state where you can hit back if the enemy creature misses you. But since you can hit back, once during your reaction you can Flurry of Blows when the enemy misses you for 2 Ki points. And then continue to hit other targets once each of they miss
This is expensive, but making up to 3 unarmed strikes back to multiple enemies when each one misses you means that this becomes more and more powerful over time as you get more Ki and better MA dice. But it's also expensive, and you lose your AoO and other reactions. This is your answer for "what happens if my squishy skirmisher gets stuck in melee and can't escape."
Stunning Strike is roughly equivalent to a 4th level spell : Hold Monster.
Both work on any creature, both give the entire party advantage on attacks on the target and both incapacitate the target. The key differences are:
Hold Monster is a 5th level spell. But none of the Hold spells are a fair comparison because paralyzed is much stronger than stunned and they last for up to a minute. Also it would be a strange and rare circumstance where it’s best to use your action to cure stunned so someone else could use their action. The reason to cure the hold spells is because they could persist. Hold spells will also commonly come from casters with higher save DCs than a Monk’s stunning strike, but since some many classes have access to hold spells that might not always be true.
Hold Person is cast with the primary combat attribute of the spellcaster since spellcasters use their spellcasting attribute in combat. Monks have to use their non-combat attribute to set save DC (except for Astral Self monks).
In normal lower level encounters against a generic group of monsters, Stunning Strike doesn't terribly change the encounter. The problem is that when up against a powerful enemy such as a BBEG or a powerful monster, it essentially turns that monster "off." These powerful enemies usually have counterplay options to spellcasters - resistance to magical effects, improved saves vs magical effects, Legendary Resistance and a host of minions to break a caster's concentration. Stunning Strike bypasses all of these issues except Legendary Resistance, and it can potentially be used far more frequently even at low levels.
The potential outcome of Stunning Strike is so powerful that it warps the entire class around this one ability that is thereafter ignored for the remaining 15 levels of play. Because of this, the next 15 levels are woefully under-developed and railroad you into a strict ASI progression to maximize the chances of a successful Stunning Strike.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
your analysis that they roughly equal in value makes no sense to me..
hold monster gives paralyze, which gives guaranteed crits on any attack that lands. That is a substantial power boost on that basis alone. This essentially doubles spell attacks, and adds 30-50% damage for weapons.
hold monster targets a weaker save
hold monster can last more than one turn.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
(1) You are incorrect, only attacks within 5ft are auto-crits on a paralyzed creature, which means there is like 2 spells in the whole game that can get auto-crits.
(2) While Hold Monster could last more than one round, I have never ever seen it last more than 1 round because the enemies very logically focus fire on the caster of Hold Monster to break their concentration. Or an enemy caster will end it on their turn through Dispel Magic, or Lesser Restoration.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
Paladins have smite slots, not spell slots. If you're using your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
uh, anyone can be within five ft of the enemy. I would get close for double damage. It doesnt say melee attacks it says five feet range. Scorching ray critical is pretty strong at any level. And its a spell meant to set up team dps.
you apparently engage in fights where the monsters have every thing they need to do whatever they want in all situations, because many monsters and encounters couldn't or wouldbt focus a caster in one turn. Your casters are also surprisingly paper, because casters i see, who go concentration, are extremely difficult to break concentration. I was tanking like a champ on sorcerer and bard with concentration spells.
That could certainly be the case, but we tend to play almost exclusively Deadly combats because you kind of need to for short adventuring days to feel challenging, so the average enemy round can drop any character to 0 hp if the enemies focus fire.
Mathematically, stunning strike is usually more valuable than an extra use of flurry of blows when the target is CR 3 or higher (though it varies somewhat with the monster); it's not worthwhile on chaff.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
A lot of the reason attack is higher priority than save DC is because physical attack stats generally add to both damage and success chance, whereas save modifiers only affect success chance. For a first level fighter attacking with a d8 weapon and dueling fighting style, going from a 14 strength to a 16 changes your damage from +4/1d8+4 to +5/1d8+5. Against an AC 12 target, the first is 5.75 damage on average, the second is 6.875 damage (+20%) average damage. By comparison, going from save stat 14 to Int 16 against a target with a +0 save is
Thus, other than save ends effects, which there aren't a ton of on half-caster lists (though there are outliers such as hold person on oath of vengeance) it's really not that critical to crank up save DC.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
Just going to say that with the only once per turn factor the hit chance of the attacks is not super relevant for whether or not stunning strike lands. Only one attack needs to land and then you spend the ki point, you don't spend it before hand. So the only % that is really relevant is the % chance for them to fail the save. This was slightly different before because it could be used on every attack so the odds of landing it would go much higher than just the % one try. Either way con is usually one of the highest saves and one of the highest stats for monsters meaning even with max dedication the odds of landing it is still 50%. However, the monks power with this feature is to gauge when and when not to use it. If you are fighting a big beefy guy, probably don't use it on him. If you see a spell caster go shut it down with stunning strike, they historically have very low con saves.
Edit: further there is the issue where there isn't much, if anything, in terms of magic items that can boost the monk's DC's. But there are magic items to boost attacks. Honestly, it is why sometimes i feel boosting wisdom is more important than boosting dex, because you have enough attacks that one is going to land and wisdom bumps your AC just as much as dex does anyway, you are never going to out damage the other martials anyway that stunning strike is the whole reason for the class in its current iteration as far as I can tell.
I rather like the idea of the Monk as a half martial / half caster. And it parallels the broad strokes comparison of the Monk and Paladin (spiritual monastic warriors).
And since so many of those spells are Arcane, it would also do well as the “missing” Martial/Arcane hybrid class.