even in these forums most people would like monk to be mechanically improved . reddit gives you an even bigger view that alot of monk players want to be better and stronger . the 'monk is fine and dont improve "club is small but loud. here is hoping they listen to the the rest of us who want improvements.
Reddit has a bit of a hivemind, but generally yes - the vast majority of players I talk to agree that Monks are thematically interesting, but mechanically very poorly designed. The constant defense of mechanically weak features in this thread because they are thematic is baffling to me, because D&D is a game where I can describe a die roll as representing anything. Instead I want features to represent mechanics that I can use to theme my actions. And those mechanics need to be unique to the class and perform well in comparison to options in other classes. Why is my character the Monk class instead of the Rogue, or the Fighter or Cleric or Paladin? All of those classes do the same general things the Monk does just as well or better. That's because WOTC focused on designing mechanics for the game first in those classes. Mike Mearls described the goal for the Fighter as "The Fighter is the best at fighting. Other classes can also fight, but the Fighter should be the best at fighting, in any situation." He goes on to describe other design goals for the Fighter,
That's because class theme is a player choice. The mechanics only exist to help express the player's themes. And more than any other class, the Monk is overly focused on representing what WOTC belives the class theme should be through their mechanics. And I feel that's partially due to them realizing far too late that the Monk is Asian-coded in a way that only allows players to represent the Monk as a stereotypical Asian martial artist. This should not be a WOTC decision. The players should be able to see a generic Monk statblock and represent any type of spiritually inclined martial artist with it. The most important description of Monks in D&D 5e comes in the section about Training and Asceticism: "Monks... seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training." The problem then arises that Monks aren't capable of achieving that perfection in any way. They lag behind other martial classes offensively and defensively. They don't wield the mystic power of spellcasters. They lack expertise in their skillsets. Their focus on the spiritual does not bring them any closer to the deities and ancients which they venerate.
It's time for Monks to begin perfecting themselves mechanically.
The 5e base Monk features are okay mechanically at allowing the monk to do what fits the theme when looked at separately and in white room. In play compared to other classes they fell short for one reason or another. The 5eR Monk almost seems to want to strip the spirituality of the class and claim it’s purely physical feats that way they can avoid the connection to Ki. I think the best method achieve the spiritual Monk is to simply improve the 5e monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense is mechanically a physical and spiritual feature. The flaw is because of other features the monk is forced to use it and it doesn’t keep up with defenses of other Martials. The fix is either to allow Unarmored Defense to give a greater AC or to allow it to change the style of play, such as giving free disengage. Since disengage is part of Rogue’s cunning action and playstyle it would need to be limited or different in some way to keep the classes unique. Maybe disengage as a bonus action a number to time equal to you dexterity mod + wisdom per long rest.
1st Martial Arts is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is weapons almost always out pace MA die in 5e and in 5eR Weapon masteries still keep weapons as the superior option. The fix is to change the grow of the MA die. 5eR starts with 1d6 and scales to 1D12, I think it’s better to start with 1d4 just like 5e but to scale by 1d4 instead of increasing the die size. So 1d4 at first, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, and 4d4 at 17th
2nd Ki is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is that it’s clearly Asian, the amount of points you have at low level are exhausted quickly needing a short rest to recharge and the abilities other than FoB make you give up a Martial Arts benefit of the bonus action unarmed strike. The fix is to continue what 5eR already did calling it Martial Discipline. Creating a one minute recharge mechanic once a long rest. Also just allowing an unarmed strike as part of using Step of the Wind and Patient Defense fixes both of them.
2nd Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
3rd Deflect Missles is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
4th Slow Fall is mechanically a peak physical feature possibly a spiritual feature and is fine. I might combine improved unarmed movement with this feature because that feature comes online to late in the monk’s career but this might be too early.
5th Extra Attack is fine.
5th Stunning Strike is mechanically a peak physical or spiritual feature depending on how you view it. 5e flavor text describes it as Ki related thus spiritual. The flaw is that it is all or nothing and when it does work it is really strong. 5eR already fixed some of its power problems by limiting it to one attempt on your turn. The problem that needs fixing is the all or nothing factor. Also since it can only be attempted once per turn you should gain something for spending the points. Making it similar to smite spells that have a rider would work best. Meaning you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target must make a con save or be stunned.
6th Empowered Strikes is mechanically a spiritual feature that is fine.
7th Evasion is mechanically a peak physical feature that is fine.
7th Stillness of Mind is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it uses your action and isn’t worded properly to let everyone know how to use it properly. The fix is reword it and make it use a bonus action. If you start your turn with the Charmed or Frightened Condition you may immediately use your bonus action to end the effect causing the condition.
9th Improve Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature. It should be given at an earlier level. I often push for it to be 4th level but that might be too soon. 6th feels right but other more important things are gained at that level.
10th Purity of Body is a mechanically a peak physical, mental or spiritual feature that is fine. But moving into 5eR it needs to change because disease no longer mechanically exist. The UA combined Stillness of Mind and this feature into one to create space at 7th level. That could be fine if you move Improved Unarmored Movement to 7th and use the UA Deflect Energy at 9th.
13th Tongue of Sun and Moon is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it’s not a strong enough social pillar improvement to justify it not aiding in the combat pillar. The fix is to rename the feature and have it focus on mental energy allowing you to understand all language, be understood and once per turn if you miss with an attack that uses your MA die you deal half the attacks damage as psychic damage (so it’s like graze)
14th Diamond Soul is mechanically a peak physical spiritual and mental feature. It is fine and the rename in the 5eR UA is fine as well.
15th Timeless Body is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is it doesn’t really do a thing that is mechanically beneficial. It’s has great RP potential, but why even have this.The fix is to use something similar to the 5eR UA feature, but instead of getting 4 points back if you start initiative with 0 you just get put to 4 points back when you start initiative.
18th Empty Body is mechanically a spiritual feature and is fine. But the way they want to do things in 5eR I think Superior Defense from the UA is okay if you move Astral projection to 20th level. The UA feature is clearlya peak physical feature so you lose the spiritually using that feature.
20th Perfect Self is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is it’s a bad capstone. There are multiple fixes for this. Right now I feel inspired by someone who suggested mirroring the Barbarian capstone. To make it different I would say the monk get 4 ASI points they can put in any stats of their choosing, so +1,+1,+1,+1, or +1,+1,+2, or +1,+3, or a +4 to any stats and those stats can be raised to a maximum of 26. Additionally I would have astral projection and timeless body as part of this featue. The new feature would mechanically represent peak physical, spiritual and mental training.
The 5e base Monk features are okay mechanically at allowing the monk to do what fits the theme when looked at separately and in white room. In play compared to other classes they fell short for one reason or another. The 5eR Monk almost seems to want to strip the spirituality of the class and claim it’s purely physical feats that way they can avoid the connection to Ki. I think the best method achieve the spiritual Monk is to simply improve the 5e monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense is mechanically a physical and spiritual feature. The flaw is because of other features the monk is forced to use it and it doesn’t keep up with defenses of other Martials. The fix is either to allow Unarmored Defense to give a greater AC or to allow it to change the style of play, such as giving free disengage. Since disengage is part of Rogue’s cunning action and playstyle it would need to be limited or different in some way to keep the classes unique. Maybe disengage as a bonus action a number to time equal to you dexterity mod + wisdom per long rest.
1st Martial Arts is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is weapons almost always out pace MA die in 5e and in 5eR Weapon masteries still keep weapons as the superior option. The fix is to change the grow of the MA die. 5eR starts with 1d6 and scales to 1D12, I think it’s better to start with 1d4 just like 5e but to scale by 1d4 instead of increasing the die size. So 1d4 at first, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, and 4d4 at 17th
2nd Ki is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is that it’s clearly Asian, the amount of points you have at low level are exhausted quickly needing a short rest to recharge and the abilities other than FoB make you give up a Martial Arts benefit of the bonus action unarmed strike. The fix is to continue what 5eR already did calling it Martial Discipline. Creating a one minute recharge mechanic once a long rest. Also just allowing an unarmed strike as part of using Step of the Wind and Patient Defense fixes both of them.
2nd Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
3rd Deflect Missles is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
4th Slow Fall is mechanically a peak physical feature possibly a spiritual feature and is fine. I might combine improved unarmed movement with this feature because that feature comes online to late in the monk’s career but this might be too early.
5th Extra Attack is fine.
5th Stunning Strike is mechanically a peak physical or spiritual feature depending on how you view it. 5e flavor text describes it as Ki related thus spiritual. The flaw is that it is all or nothing and when it does work it is really strong. 5eR already fixed some of its power problems by limiting it to one attempt on your turn. The problem that needs fixing is the all or nothing factor. Also since it can only be attempted once per turn you should gain something for spending the points. Making it similar to smite spells that have a rider would work best. Meaning you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target must make a con save or be stunned.
6th Empowered Strikes is mechanically a spiritual feature that is fine.
7th Evasion is mechanically a peak physical feature that is fine.
7th Stillness of Mind is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it uses your action and isn’t worded properly to let everyone know how to use it properly. The fix is reword it and make it use a bonus action. If you start your turn with the Charmed or Frightened Condition you may immediately use your bonus action to end the effect causing the condition.
9th Improve Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature. It should be given at an earlier level. I often push for it to be 4th level but that might be too soon. 6th feels right but other more important things are gained at that level.
10th Purity of Body is a mechanically a peak physical, mental or spiritual feature that is fine. But moving into 5eR it needs to change because disease no longer mechanically exist. The UA combined Stillness of Mind and this feature into one to create space at 7th level. That could be fine if you move Improved Unarmored Movement to 7th and use the UA Deflect Energy at 9th.
13th Tongue of Sun and Moon is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it’s not a strong enough social pillar improvement to justify it not aiding in the combat pillar. The fix is to rename the feature and have it focus on mental energy allowing you to understand all language, be understood and once per turn if you miss with an attack that uses your MA die you deal half the attacks damage as psychic damage (so it’s like graze)
14th Diamond Soul is mechanically a peak physical spiritual and mental feature. It is fine and the rename in the 5eR UA is fine as well.
15th Timeless Body is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is it doesn’t really do a thing that is mechanically beneficial. It’s has great RP potential, but why even have this.The fix is to use something similar to the 5eR UA feature, but instead of getting 4 points back if you start initiative with 0 you just get put to 4 points back when you start initiative.
18th Empty Body is mechanically a spiritual feature and is fine. But the way they want to do things in 5eR I think Superior Defense from the UA is okay if you move Astral projection to 20th level. The UA feature is clearlya peak physical feature so you lose the spiritually using that feature.
20th Perfect Self is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is it’s a bad capstone. There are multiple fixes for this. Right now I feel inspired by someone who suggested mirroring the Barbarian capstone. To make it different I would say the monk get 4 ASI points they can put in any stats of their choosing, so +1,+1,+1,+1, or +1,+1,+2, or +1,+3, or a +4 to any stats and those stats can be raised to a maximum of 26. Additionally I would have astral projection and timeless body as part of this featue. The new feature would mechanically represent peak physical, spiritual and mental training.
I like a lot of these ideas, but one thing I would add is that Diamond Soul is another feature that's good but comes in way too late; we've had people (mostly Lilith) argue that Monks getting all save proficiencies is a powerful feature, and it is to a degree, but anything beyond 11th- or 12th-level may as well not exist in most campaigns, as most Monks will never even get that feature.
If saving proficiency is to be considered a core Monk feature then it should really come in sooner, or be split into two half features. If Monks continue to get Dexterity and Strength as saving proficiencies at 1st-level, then they should IMO get Wisdom and Charisma to give them a big edge on saving throw proficiencies as a core class feature in tier 2 somewhere. Then later they can get the final two (Constitution and Intelligence) alongside the Ki point re-rolls to boost that into becoming saving throw passing machines.
Basically tier 3 and 4 features should be mostly about upgrading or supplementing what you already have as core features, they shouldn't be anything you might consider iconic to or a fundamental part of the class, simply because most campaigns will never get that far unless they start at a high level or level up rapidly.
Since they haven't changed it in the playtests (unless I missed it) the obvious point of comparison is the Paladin's Aura of Protection; unless you're running a low Charisma Paladin this gives not only you, but everyone with 10 feet of you, a boost to all saves that actually stackson top of proficiency, so it's a superior feature to 14th-level Diamond Soul in nearly every way, but is gained at 6th-level where you'll actually get to use it in most campaigns. Now that aura is arguably too strong (on an already very strong class) so Monk doesn't necessarily need to compete fully with that, but I think it makes a good case for why they need to get part of Diamond Soul earlier.
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even in these forums most people would like monk to be mechanically improved . reddit gives you an even bigger view that alot of monk players want to be better and stronger . the 'monk is fine and dont improve "club is small but loud. here is hoping they listen to the the rest of us who want improvements.
Reddit has a bit of a hivemind, but generally yes - the vast majority of players I talk to agree that Monks are thematically interesting, but mechanically very poorly designed. The constant defense of mechanically weak features in this thread because they are thematic is baffling to me, because D&D is a game where I can describe a die roll as representing anything. Instead I want features to represent mechanics that I can use to theme my actions. And those mechanics need to be unique to the class and perform well in comparison to options in other classes. Why is my character the Monk class instead of the Rogue, or the Fighter or Cleric or Paladin? All of those classes do the same general things the Monk does just as well or better. That's because WOTC focused on designing mechanics for the game first in those classes. Mike Mearls described the goal for the Fighter as "The Fighter is the best at fighting. Other classes can also fight, but the Fighter should be the best at fighting, in any situation." He goes on to describe other design goals for the Fighter,
That's because class theme is a player choice. The mechanics only exist to help express the player's themes. And more than any other class, the Monk is overly focused on representing what WOTC belives the class theme should be through their mechanics. And I feel that's partially due to them realizing far too late that the Monk is Asian-coded in a way that only allows players to represent the Monk as a stereotypical Asian martial artist. This should not be a WOTC decision. The players should be able to see a generic Monk statblock and represent any type of spiritually inclined martial artist with it. The most important description of Monks in D&D 5e comes in the section about Training and Asceticism: "Monks... seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training." The problem then arises that Monks aren't capable of achieving that perfection in any way. They lag behind other martial classes offensively and defensively. They don't wield the mystic power of spellcasters. They lack expertise in their skillsets. Their focus on the spiritual does not bring them any closer to the deities and ancients which they venerate.
It's time for Monks to begin perfecting themselves mechanically.
The 5e base Monk features are okay mechanically at allowing the monk to do what fits the theme when looked at separately and in white room. In play compared to other classes they fell short for one reason or another. The 5eR Monk almost seems to want to strip the spirituality of the class and claim it’s purely physical feats that way they can avoid the connection to Ki. I think the best method achieve the spiritual Monk is to simply improve the 5e monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense is mechanically a physical and spiritual feature. The flaw is because of other features the monk is forced to use it and it doesn’t keep up with defenses of other Martials. The fix is either to allow Unarmored Defense to give a greater AC or to allow it to change the style of play, such as giving free disengage. Since disengage is part of Rogue’s cunning action and playstyle it would need to be limited or different in some way to keep the classes unique. Maybe disengage as a bonus action a number to time equal to you dexterity mod + wisdom per long rest.
1st Martial Arts is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is weapons almost always out pace MA die in 5e and in 5eR Weapon masteries still keep weapons as the superior option. The fix is to change the grow of the MA die. 5eR starts with 1d6 and scales to 1D12, I think it’s better to start with 1d4 just like 5e but to scale by 1d4 instead of increasing the die size. So 1d4 at first, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, and 4d4 at 17th
2nd Ki is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is that it’s clearly Asian, the amount of points you have at low level are exhausted quickly needing a short rest to recharge and the abilities other than FoB make you give up a Martial Arts benefit of the bonus action unarmed strike. The fix is to continue what 5eR already did calling it Martial Discipline. Creating a one minute recharge mechanic once a long rest. Also just allowing an unarmed strike as part of using Step of the Wind and Patient Defense fixes both of them.
2nd Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
3rd Deflect Missles is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
4th Slow Fall is mechanically a peak physical feature possibly a spiritual feature and is fine. I might combine improved unarmed movement with this feature because that feature comes online to late in the monk’s career but this might be too early.
5th Extra Attack is fine.
5th Stunning Strike is mechanically a peak physical or spiritual feature depending on how you view it. 5e flavor text describes it as Ki related thus spiritual. The flaw is that it is all or nothing and when it does work it is really strong. 5eR already fixed some of its power problems by limiting it to one attempt on your turn. The problem that needs fixing is the all or nothing factor. Also since it can only be attempted once per turn you should gain something for spending the points. Making it similar to smite spells that have a rider would work best. Meaning you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target must make a con save or be stunned.
6th Empowered Strikes is mechanically a spiritual feature that is fine.
7th Evasion is mechanically a peak physical feature that is fine.
7th Stillness of Mind is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it uses your action and isn’t worded properly to let everyone know how to use it properly. The fix is reword it and make it use a bonus action. If you start your turn with the Charmed or Frightened Condition you may immediately use your bonus action to end the effect causing the condition.
9th Improve Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature. It should be given at an earlier level. I often push for it to be 4th level but that might be too soon. 6th feels right but other more important things are gained at that level.
10th Purity of Body is a mechanically a peak physical, mental or spiritual feature that is fine. But moving into 5eR it needs to change because disease no longer mechanically exist. The UA combined Stillness of Mind and this feature into one to create space at 7th level. That could be fine if you move Improved Unarmored Movement to 7th and use the UA Deflect Energy at 9th.
13th Tongue of Sun and Moon is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it’s not a strong enough social pillar improvement to justify it not aiding in the combat pillar. The fix is to rename the feature and have it focus on mental energy allowing you to understand all language, be understood and once per turn if you miss with an attack that uses your MA die you deal half the attacks damage as psychic damage (so it’s like graze)
14th Diamond Soul is mechanically a peak physical spiritual and mental feature. It is fine and the rename in the 5eR UA is fine as well.
15th Timeless Body is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is it doesn’t really do a thing that is mechanically beneficial. It’s has great RP potential, but why even have this.The fix is to use something similar to the 5eR UA feature, but instead of getting 4 points back if you start initiative with 0 you just get put to 4 points back when you start initiative.
18th Empty Body is mechanically a spiritual feature and is fine. But the way they want to do things in 5eR I think Superior Defense from the UA is okay if you move Astral projection to 20th level. The UA feature is clearlya peak physical feature so you lose the spiritually using that feature.
20th Perfect Self is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is it’s a bad capstone. There are multiple fixes for this. Right now I feel inspired by someone who suggested mirroring the Barbarian capstone. To make it different I would say the monk get 4 ASI points they can put in any stats of their choosing, so +1,+1,+1,+1, or +1,+1,+2, or +1,+3, or a +4 to any stats and those stats can be raised to a maximum of 26. Additionally I would have astral projection and timeless body as part of this featue. The new feature would mechanically represent peak physical, spiritual and mental training.
I like these ideas. I don’t know if disengage needs to be limited to somehow be different from Rogue’s Cunning Action. I’ve mentioned in the past (maybe others have as well) that giving an unarmed strike as part of Patient Defense and Step of the Wind could be an option. I know you moved it to part of Unarmored Defense so maybe the limited disengage would not require the action economy at all? On your turn you can declare you are fighting defensively and have Disengage until the start of your next turn? Or something like that. Edit: Then a tight limit might be necessary (an always on disengage would be too powerful) and then have the usual disengage via SotW bonus action?
I don’t like starting unarmed strikes at d4 (species all now do d6 with natural weapons) but it does scale better in the end.
The 5e base Monk features are okay mechanically at allowing the monk to do what fits the theme when looked at separately and in white room. In play compared to other classes they fell short for one reason or another. The 5eR Monk almost seems to want to strip the spirituality of the class and claim it’s purely physical feats that way they can avoid the connection to Ki. I think the best method achieve the spiritual Monk is to simply improve the 5e monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense is mechanically a physical and spiritual feature. The flaw is because of other features the monk is forced to use it and it doesn’t keep up with defenses of other Martials. The fix is either to allow Unarmored Defense to give a greater AC or to allow it to change the style of play, such as giving free disengage. Since disengage is part of Rogue’s cunning action and playstyle it would need to be limited or different in some way to keep the classes unique. Maybe disengage as a bonus action a number to time equal to you dexterity mod + wisdom per long rest.
1st Martial Arts is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is weapons almost always out pace MA die in 5e and in 5eR Weapon masteries still keep weapons as the superior option. The fix is to change the grow of the MA die. 5eR starts with 1d6 and scales to 1D12, I think it’s better to start with 1d4 just like 5e but to scale by 1d4 instead of increasing the die size. So 1d4 at first, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, and 4d4 at 17th
2nd Ki is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is that it’s clearly Asian, the amount of points you have at low level are exhausted quickly needing a short rest to recharge and the abilities other than FoB make you give up a Martial Arts benefit of the bonus action unarmed strike. The fix is to continue what 5eR already did calling it Martial Discipline. Creating a one minute recharge mechanic once a long rest. Also just allowing an unarmed strike as part of using Step of the Wind and Patient Defense fixes both of them.
2nd Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
3rd Deflect Missles is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
4th Slow Fall is mechanically a peak physical feature possibly a spiritual feature and is fine. I might combine improved unarmed movement with this feature because that feature comes online to late in the monk’s career but this might be too early.
5th Extra Attack is fine.
5th Stunning Strike is mechanically a peak physical or spiritual feature depending on how you view it. 5e flavor text describes it as Ki related thus spiritual. The flaw is that it is all or nothing and when it does work it is really strong. 5eR already fixed some of its power problems by limiting it to one attempt on your turn. The problem that needs fixing is the all or nothing factor. Also since it can only be attempted once per turn you should gain something for spending the points. Making it similar to smite spells that have a rider would work best. Meaning you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target must make a con save or be stunned.
6th Empowered Strikes is mechanically a spiritual feature that is fine.
7th Evasion is mechanically a peak physical feature that is fine.
7th Stillness of Mind is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it uses your action and isn’t worded properly to let everyone know how to use it properly. The fix is reword it and make it use a bonus action. If you start your turn with the Charmed or Frightened Condition you may immediately use your bonus action to end the effect causing the condition.
9th Improve Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature. It should be given at an earlier level. I often push for it to be 4th level but that might be too soon. 6th feels right but other more important things are gained at that level.
10th Purity of Body is a mechanically a peak physical, mental or spiritual feature that is fine. But moving into 5eR it needs to change because disease no longer mechanically exist. The UA combined Stillness of Mind and this feature into one to create space at 7th level. That could be fine if you move Improved Unarmored Movement to 7th and use the UA Deflect Energy at 9th.
13th Tongue of Sun and Moon is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it’s not a strong enough social pillar improvement to justify it not aiding in the combat pillar. The fix is to rename the feature and have it focus on mental energy allowing you to understand all language, be understood and once per turn if you miss with an attack that uses your MA die you deal half the attacks damage as psychic damage (so it’s like graze)
14th Diamond Soul is mechanically a peak physical spiritual and mental feature. It is fine and the rename in the 5eR UA is fine as well.
15th Timeless Body is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is it doesn’t really do a thing that is mechanically beneficial. It’s has great RP potential, but why even have this.The fix is to use something similar to the 5eR UA feature, but instead of getting 4 points back if you start initiative with 0 you just get put to 4 points back when you start initiative.
18th Empty Body is mechanically a spiritual feature and is fine. But the way they want to do things in 5eR I think Superior Defense from the UA is okay if you move Astral projection to 20th level. The UA feature is clearlya peak physical feature so you lose the spiritually using that feature.
20th Perfect Self is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is it’s a bad capstone. There are multiple fixes for this. Right now I feel inspired by someone who suggested mirroring the Barbarian capstone. To make it different I would say the monk get 4 ASI points they can put in any stats of their choosing, so +1,+1,+1,+1, or +1,+1,+2, or +1,+3, or a +4 to any stats and those stats can be raised to a maximum of 26. Additionally I would have astral projection and timeless body as part of this featue. The new feature would mechanically represent peak physical, spiritual and mental training.
I like a lot of these ideas, but one thing I would add is that Diamond Soul is another feature that's good but comes in way too late; we've had people (mostly Lilith) argue that Monks getting all save proficiencies is a powerful feature, and it is to a degree, but anything beyond 11th- or 12th-level may as well not exist in most campaigns, as most Monks will never even get that feature.
If saving proficiency is to be considered a core Monk feature then it should really come in sooner, or be split into two half features. If Monks continue to get Dexterity and Strength as saving proficiencies at 1st-level, then they should IMO get Wisdom and Charisma to give them a big edge on saving throw proficiencies as a core class feature in tier 2 somewhere. Then later they can get the final two (Constitution and Intelligence) alongside the Ki point re-rolls to boost that into becoming saving throw passing machines.
Basically tier 3 and 4 features should be mostly about upgrading or supplementing what you already have as core features, they shouldn't be anything you might consider iconic to or a fundamental part of the class, simply because most campaigns will never get that far unless they start at a high level or level up rapidly.
Since they haven't changed it in the playtests (unless I missed it) the obvious point of comparison is the Paladin's Aura of Protection; unless you're running a low Charisma Paladin this gives not only you, but everyone with 10 feet of you, a boost to all saves that actually stackson top of proficiency, so it's a superior feature to 14th-level Diamond Soul in nearly every way, but is gained at 6th-level where you'll actually get to use it in most campaigns. Now that aura is arguably too strong (on an already very strong class) so Monk doesn't necessarily need to compete fully with that, but I think it makes a good case for why they need to get part of Diamond Soul earlier.
I agree with you. And I believe you had a similar idea way back in another thread and it had merit then as well. Splitting up the save proficiencies is an interesting approach and actually allows it to come into play during most campaigns.
even in these forums most people would like monk to be mechanically improved . reddit gives you an even bigger view that alot of monk players want to be better and stronger . the 'monk is fine and dont improve "club is small but loud. here is hoping they listen to the the rest of us who want improvements.
Reddit has a bit of a hivemind, but generally yes - the vast majority of players I talk to agree that Monks are thematically interesting, but mechanically very poorly designed. The constant defense of mechanically weak features in this thread because they are thematic is baffling to me, because D&D is a game where I can describe a die roll as representing anything. Instead I want features to represent mechanics that I can use to theme my actions. And those mechanics need to be unique to the class and perform well in comparison to options in other classes. Why is my character the Monk class instead of the Rogue, or the Fighter or Cleric or Paladin? All of those classes do the same general things the Monk does just as well or better. That's because WOTC focused on designing mechanics for the game first in those classes. Mike Mearls described the goal for the Fighter as "The Fighter is the best at fighting. Other classes can also fight, but the Fighter should be the best at fighting, in any situation." He goes on to describe other design goals for the Fighter,
That's because class theme is a player choice. The mechanics only exist to help express the player's themes. And more than any other class, the Monk is overly focused on representing what WOTC belives the class theme should be through their mechanics. And I feel that's partially due to them realizing far too late that the Monk is Asian-coded in a way that only allows players to represent the Monk as a stereotypical Asian martial artist. This should not be a WOTC decision. The players should be able to see a generic Monk statblock and represent any type of spiritually inclined martial artist with it. The most important description of Monks in D&D 5e comes in the section about Training and Asceticism: "Monks... seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training." The problem then arises that Monks aren't capable of achieving that perfection in any way. They lag behind other martial classes offensively and defensively. They don't wield the mystic power of spellcasters. They lack expertise in their skillsets. Their focus on the spiritual does not bring them any closer to the deities and ancients which they venerate.
It's time for Monks to begin perfecting themselves mechanically.
The 5e base Monk features are okay mechanically at allowing the monk to do what fits the theme when looked at separately and in white room. In play compared to other classes they fell short for one reason or another. The 5eR Monk almost seems to want to strip the spirituality of the class and claim it’s purely physical feats that way they can avoid the connection to Ki. I think the best method achieve the spiritual Monk is to simply improve the 5e monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense is mechanically a physical and spiritual feature. The flaw is because of other features the monk is forced to use it and it doesn’t keep up with defenses of other Martials. The fix is either to allow Unarmored Defense to give a greater AC or to allow it to change the style of play, such as giving free disengage. Since disengage is part of Rogue’s cunning action and playstyle it would need to be limited or different in some way to keep the classes unique. Maybe disengage as a bonus action a number to time equal to you dexterity mod + wisdom per long rest.
1st Martial Arts is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is weapons almost always out pace MA die in 5e and in 5eR Weapon masteries still keep weapons as the superior option. The fix is to change the grow of the MA die. 5eR starts with 1d6 and scales to 1D12, I think it’s better to start with 1d4 just like 5e but to scale by 1d4 instead of increasing the die size. So 1d4 at first, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, and 4d4 at 17th
2nd Ki is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is that it’s clearly Asian, the amount of points you have at low level are exhausted quickly needing a short rest to recharge and the abilities other than FoB make you give up a Martial Arts benefit of the bonus action unarmed strike. The fix is to continue what 5eR already did calling it Martial Discipline. Creating a one minute recharge mechanic once a long rest. Also just allowing an unarmed strike as part of using Step of the Wind and Patient Defense fixes both of them.
2nd Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
3rd Deflect Missles is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
4th Slow Fall is mechanically a peak physical feature possibly a spiritual feature and is fine. I might combine improved unarmed movement with this feature because that feature comes online to late in the monk’s career but this might be too early.
5th Extra Attack is fine.
5th Stunning Strike is mechanically a peak physical or spiritual feature depending on how you view it. 5e flavor text describes it as Ki related thus spiritual. The flaw is that it is all or nothing and when it does work it is really strong. 5eR already fixed some of its power problems by limiting it to one attempt on your turn. The problem that needs fixing is the all or nothing factor. Also since it can only be attempted once per turn you should gain something for spending the points. Making it similar to smite spells that have a rider would work best. Meaning you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target must make a con save or be stunned.
6th Empowered Strikes is mechanically a spiritual feature that is fine.
7th Evasion is mechanically a peak physical feature that is fine.
7th Stillness of Mind is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it uses your action and isn’t worded properly to let everyone know how to use it properly. The fix is reword it and make it use a bonus action. If you start your turn with the Charmed or Frightened Condition you may immediately use your bonus action to end the effect causing the condition.
9th Improve Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature. It should be given at an earlier level. I often push for it to be 4th level but that might be too soon. 6th feels right but other more important things are gained at that level.
10th Purity of Body is a mechanically a peak physical, mental or spiritual feature that is fine. But moving into 5eR it needs to change because disease no longer mechanically exist. The UA combined Stillness of Mind and this feature into one to create space at 7th level. That could be fine if you move Improved Unarmored Movement to 7th and use the UA Deflect Energy at 9th.
13th Tongue of Sun and Moon is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it’s not a strong enough social pillar improvement to justify it not aiding in the combat pillar. The fix is to rename the feature and have it focus on mental energy allowing you to understand all language, be understood and once per turn if you miss with an attack that uses your MA die you deal half the attacks damage as psychic damage (so it’s like graze)
14th Diamond Soul is mechanically a peak physical spiritual and mental feature. It is fine and the rename in the 5eR UA is fine as well.
15th Timeless Body is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is it doesn’t really do a thing that is mechanically beneficial. It’s has great RP potential, but why even have this.The fix is to use something similar to the 5eR UA feature, but instead of getting 4 points back if you start initiative with 0 you just get put to 4 points back when you start initiative.
18th Empty Body is mechanically a spiritual feature and is fine. But the way they want to do things in 5eR I think Superior Defense from the UA is okay if you move Astral projection to 20th level. The UA feature is clearlya peak physical feature so you lose the spiritually using that feature.
20th Perfect Self is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is it’s a bad capstone. There are multiple fixes for this. Right now I feel inspired by someone who suggested mirroring the Barbarian capstone. To make it different I would say the monk get 4 ASI points they can put in any stats of their choosing, so +1,+1,+1,+1, or +1,+1,+2, or +1,+3, or a +4 to any stats and those stats can be raised to a maximum of 26. Additionally I would have astral projection and timeless body as part of this featue. The new feature would mechanically represent peak physical, spiritual and mental training.
this is an interesting analysis from a certain perspective, but overall, in the context of one dnd, I think monk can't just be a remixed 5e thing.
every martial has gained dramatic versatility, power, and 'fun'.
Barbarian can now perform most powerful skill checks that a martial might want to do related to combat, with low chance of failure. stealth(sneaking), athletics(jumping/physical feats), perception (getting first attacks) intimidation (ending fights early, forcing run/surrender) They have full use of weapon mastery, weapons, rage working with throwing weapons, off turn reckless, etc. Many more choices and options in play.
fighter gets tactical mind for skill checks, tactical shift for movement, the most versatile use of mastery, creating new weapon combos, More second wind uses, They have essentially all increased their turn to turn choices by increased damage, increased survivability, increased movement, increased enemy control/manipulation.
rogue gets cunning strikes, and mastery, with previous skill use, they basically have tons of options and gameplay available to them.
half casters also improved in options and power
ranger/paladin already had many options, but paladin had other smites improved and thus more viable, mastery, and an expanded spell list(may change but who knows how) they both add mastery to their already strong list of combat options. Generally improving their damage, and survivability in other features.
So if monk remains mostly the same with just a damage boost, they will basically be the least fun class to play with the fewest options that matter related to combat. Your focus unarmed damage as opposed to mastery, essentially makes mastery not a real option for them. A big part of mastery is giving roughly similar benefit, and mostly being situational. If there is one weapon/option that gives + 7.5-4.5 damage, its probably not worth using anything else. Your monk really will almost never use mastery after 5, and never after 11.Which means their gameplay loop will essentially be FOB every round, dodge if you have to, step if you need to get close.
Combine this with the fact, its actually not enough, If all they really do is pure damage, this is still not enough damage. 4d4 is 10 damage. per hit, but paladin is up to 11.5 damage per hit, (2d6+d8) barbarian is (2d6+6=13.5) with advantage, Ranger is (2d6+3.5+5=16). Monks do get an extra attack out of it, but with fighting styles, spells, feats, this is surpassed, or equalled, but with a lot more versatility. Not to mention generally low power subclasses.
Now, I don't think being the best dps with fewer options should be the goal, or being an average dps with fewer options. If this was 5e, it would be a fine monk, but in onednd, i don't think so.
Because the first playtest monk was so undercooked, we had to spend most of our energy fixing their flaws, instead of getting them up to snuff for onednd world.
I think monk probably needs a changeable mastery on unarmed strikes, or the MA die on weapons back, or both. They need a new sub menu of expanded options in battle, or at least 2-3 new options(cunning strikes, tactical). Most the things you mention also need a fix, whether your way, or another. (base defense, damage scaling, pd/step value increase) Though ideally, I'd try to make it more fun, rather than just number boosts.
as an aside, although barbarian is improved, I think it could still use some interesting options, preferably in t3/t4 where their amount of cool features is fairly low. Rogue baseline power assuming no off turn feels low)
PS. imo discipline points is a very bad name, it doesn't flow well in concept, meaning, or language. Also the desire to hide/erase the Asian origin of the monk class is of questionable value, and I don't think they actually achieve that goal. I'm not gonna die on a hill opposing those changes, because I can ignore their flavoring anyhow, but its doing nothing for the class, and in some cases making it worse. (removal of flavorful ribbons replaced with nothing, weaker lore, fantasy)
1d4 is more than enough to start your unarmed strike as long as you aren’t often in a situation were you have to use you bonus action for something else. Which is why I agree that all the Martial Discipline abilities should include the opportunity to make that unarmed strike as part of that bonus action. That means at levels 1-4 Monk is usually often dealing 2d4+6 if they have a Str or Dex of 16. Honestly it could be higher considering you could use a weapon for you action attack.
1d4 is more than enough to start your unarmed strike as long as you aren’t often in a situation were you have to use you bonus action for something else. Which is why I agree that all the Martial Discipline abilities should include the opportunity to make that unarmed strike as part of that bonus action. That means at levels 1-4 Monk is usually often dealing 2d4+6 if they have a Str or Dex of 16. Honestly it could be higher considering you could use a weapon for you action attack.
if this was in response to me, I wasn't saying 1d4 is a problem low level. I was saying 4d4 at a top level isnt strong enough to make up for the lack of everything else the new one dnd martials have in terms of damage and bonus effects/versatility.
level 1-4 monk would be fine, or fine enough for those early levels.
I agree the bonus unarmed attack mathematically solves the low value of pd/step.
Tools: Choose one type of Artisan’s Tool or Musical
Instrument
ARMORTRAINING
Light Armor, Medium Armor
1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmored or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield:
Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.
Martial Arts Dice. You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. The number of dice increases as you gain Monk levels, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, 4d4 at 12th.
1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE
While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, as bonus action you can select one creature within 5ft of you to be unable to make Attacks of Opportunity against you until the end of your turn.
1ST LEVEL: WEAPON MASTERY
Your training with weapons allows you to use the Mastery property of two kinds of Simple weapons of your choice, such as Daggers and Spears.
Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of Simple weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the Mastery properties of Maces and Slings.
2ND LEVEL: MARTIAL DISCIPLINE
Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points. Your Monk level plus proficiency bonus determine the number of points you have, as shown in the Discipline Points column of the Monk table.
You can spend these points to fuel various Martial Discipline features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Martial Discipline features as you gain levels in this class.
When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Once per long rest you may spend 1 minute in a meditative state at the end of which you regain all expended Discipline Points. While in the meditative state you are Blinded, sitting Prone, your speed is zero, you can’t take bonus actions, and must use your action each turn to maintain the state. If the 1 minute meditative state is interrupted you do not gain any of its benefits, but you may attempt to use the meditative state again before you complete a long rest.
Some of your Martial Discipline features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC
equals 8 plus your Proficiency Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.
Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.
Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If you are hit by an attack and take damage before the start of your next turn you regain 1 Discipline Point at the start of your next turn (only 1 no matter how many times you were hit and took damage)
Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action:
Use the Disengage action
Use the Dash action and your jump distance is doubled for the turn
Make on Unarmed Strike
2ND LEVEL: UNARMORED MOVEMENT
Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. While wearing Light Armor and not wielding a Shield you still gain some of the benefits of this increased movement. Your speed increases by half the amount shown on the monk table rounded up to the nearest increment of 5 feet.
3RD LEVEL: EXTRAORDINARY REFLEXES
Deflect Missiles. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your Monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack.
Follow Up. While unarmored you can use your Reaction when you miss an Unarmed Strike made with your Bonus Action to immediately make another Unarmed Strike as part of that same Bonus Action.
Prepared Defense. While unarmored you can use Reaction if you are hit by an attack that has disadvantage to gain resistance to all of that attack's damage.
Unseen Step. While unarmored you can use a Reaction when you take the Dash action to become Invisible until the end of this turn or until you make an attack, or force a creature to make a saving throw. You don’t make sound or leave tracks while invisible on this turn.
3RD LEVEL: MONK SUBCLASS
You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Warrior of Mercy, Warrior of Shadow, Warrior of the Four Elements, or Warrior of the Open Hand. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description (for this playtest, use Way of Mercy from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything for Warrior of Mercy).
A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at certain Monk levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Monk level and lower.
4TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
4TH LEVEL: SLOW FALL
You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.
5TH LEVEL: EXTRA ATTACK
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
5TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED STRIKES
Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Simple Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can spend Discipline Points to attempt a special strike:
Dazing Strike- 1 Discipline point- The target takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Dazed condition until the start of your next turn.
Lingering Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or they have to subtract 1d4 from their saving throws until the start of your next turn.
Slowing Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target must takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or have their movement speed halved until the start of your next turn.
Stunning Strike- 2 Discipline Points- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the start of your next turn.
6TH LEVEL: EMPOWERED STRIKES
Whenever you deal damage with your Unarmed Strike, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type.
6TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
7TH LEVEL: EVASION
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.
7TH LEVEL: ACROBATIC MOVEMENT
While you aren’t wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
8TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
9TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED SURVIVOR
Your physical and mental discipline grant you proficiency in all saving throws.
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to reroll it and take the second result.
10TH LEVEL: SELF-RESTORATION
Through sheer force of will, if you start your turn with Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned condition you can immediately use a Bonus Action to remove one of the conditions from yourself.
In addition, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you levels of Exhaustion.
11TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
12TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
13TH LEVEL: DEFLECT ENERGY
You can now use your Deflect Missiles feature against ranged attacks that deal any damage type, not just Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.
14TH LEVEL: CONNECTED UNDERSTANDING
Your extraordinary internal energy extends beyond your physical body connecting you to other creatures. You gain the following:
You understand all spoken language and all creatures that understand a language understand what you say.
Once per turn when you miss with an attack that uses your Martial Arts Dice for damage the target still takes half the attack's damage, but the damage type is Psychic instead of its normal damage type.
15TH LEVEL: PERFECT DISCIPLINE
When you roll Initiative, you regain 4 expended Discipline Points if you have less than half your maximum Discipline Points remaining.
16TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
17TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
18TH LEVEL: SUPERIOR DEFENSE
As a Bonus Action, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to perfectly bolster yourself against harm for 1 minute or until you are Incapacitated. During that time, you have resistance to all damage except Force damage.
19TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
20TH LEVEL: PERFECT SELF
You have honed your mind and body through rigorous training pushing them beyond their normal limitations gaining the following:
Empty Body. You can spend 8 Discipline Points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so, you can’t take any other creatures with you.
Timeless Body. You suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can’t be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however.
Trained Body. Increase ability scores of your choice by a combined total of 4. That can be four ability scores by 1, two ability scores by 2, one ability score by 1 and another by ability score by 3, one ability by 2 and two other ability scores by 1, or one ability score by 4. You can increase an ability score using this ability to a maximum of 24.
Tools: Choose one type of Artisan’s Tool or Musical
Instrument
ARMORTRAINING
Light Armor, Medium Armor
1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmored or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield:
Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.
Martial Arts Dice. You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. The number of dice increases as you gain Monk levels, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, 4d4 at 12th.
1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE
While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, as bonus action you can select one creature within 5ft of you to be unable to make Attacks of Opportunity against you until the end of your turn.
1ST LEVEL: WEAPON MASTERY
Your training with weapons allows you to use the Mastery property of two kinds of Simple weapons of your choice, such as Daggers and Spears.
Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of Simple weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the Mastery properties of Maces and Slings.
2ND LEVEL: MARTIAL DISCIPLINE
Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points. Your Monk level plus proficiency bonus determine the number of points you have, as shown in the Discipline Points column of the Monk table.
You can spend these points to fuel various Martial Discipline features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Martial Discipline features as you gain levels in this class.
When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Once per long rest you may spend 1 minute in a meditative state at the end of which you regain all expended Discipline Points. While in the meditative state you are Blinded, sitting Prone, your speed is zero, you can’t take bonus actions, and must use your action each turn to maintain the state. If the 1 minute meditative state is interrupted you do not gain any of its benefits, but you may attempt to use the meditative state again before you complete a long rest.
Some of your Martial Discipline features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC
equals 8 plus your Proficiency Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.
Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.
Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If you are hit by an attack and take damage before the start of your next turn you regain 1 Discipline Point at the start of your next turn (only 1 no matter how many times you were hit and took damage)
Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action:
Use the Disengage action
Use the Dash action and your jump distance is doubled for the turn
Make on Unarmed Strike
2ND LEVEL: UNARMORED MOVEMENT
Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. While wearing Light Armor and not wielding a Shield you still gain some of the benefits of this increased movement. Your speed increases by half the amount shown on the monk table rounded up to the nearest increment of 5 feet.
3RD LEVEL: EXTRAORDINARY REFLEXES
Deflect Missiles. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that deal Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your Monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack.
Follow Up. While unarmored you can use your Reaction when you miss an Unarmed Strike made with your Bonus Action to immediately make another Unarmed Strike as part of that same Bonus Action.
Prepared Defense. While unarmored you can use Reaction if you are hit by an attack that has disadvantage to gain resistance to all of that attack's damage.
Unseen Step. While unarmored you can use a Reaction when you take the Dash action to become Invisible until the end of this turn or until you make an attack, or force a creature to make a saving throw. You don’t make sound or leave tracks while invisible on this turn.
3RD LEVEL: MONK SUBCLASS
You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Warrior of Mercy, Warrior of Shadow, Warrior of the Four Elements, or Warrior of the Open Hand. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description (for this playtest, use Way of Mercy from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything for Warrior of Mercy).
A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at certain Monk levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Monk level and lower.
4TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
4TH LEVEL: SLOW FALL
You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.
5TH LEVEL: EXTRA ATTACK
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
5TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED STRIKES
Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Simple Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can spend Discipline Points to attempt a special strike:
Dazing Strike- 1 Discipline point- The target takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Dazed condition until the start of your next turn.
Lingering Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or they have to subtract 1d4 from their saving throws until the start of your next turn.
Slowing Strike- 1 Discipline Point- The target must takes an additional 1d4 damage and must succeed on a Strength saving throw or have their movement speed halved until the start of your next turn.
Stunning Strike- 2 Discipline Points- The target takes an additional 2d4 damage and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the start of your next turn.
6TH LEVEL: EMPOWERED STRIKES
Whenever you deal damage with your Unarmed Strike, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type.
6TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
7TH LEVEL: EVASION
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.
7TH LEVEL: ACROBATIC MOVEMENT
While you aren’t wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
8TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
9TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED SURVIVOR
Your physical and mental discipline grant you proficiency in all saving throws.
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to reroll it and take the second result.
10TH LEVEL: SELF-RESTORATION
Through sheer force of will, if you start your turn with Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned condition you can immediately use a Bonus Action to remove one of the conditions from yourself.
In addition, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you levels of Exhaustion.
11TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
12TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
13TH LEVEL: DEFLECT ENERGY
You can now use your Deflect Missiles feature against ranged attacks that deal any damage type, not just Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.
14TH LEVEL: CONNECTED UNDERSTANDING
Your extraordinary internal energy extends beyond your physical body connecting you to other creatures. You gain the following:
You understand all spoken language and all creatures that understand a language understand what you say.
Once per turn when you miss with an attack that uses your Martial Arts Dice for damage the target still takes half the attack's damage, but the damage type is Psychic instead of its normal damage type.
15TH LEVEL: PERFECT DISCIPLINE
When you roll Initiative, you regain 4 expended Discipline Points if you have less than half your maximum Discipline Points remaining.
16TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
17TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
18TH LEVEL: SUPERIOR DEFENSE
As a Bonus Action, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to perfectly bolster yourself against harm for 1 minute or until you are Incapacitated. During that time, you have resistance to all damage except Force damage.
19TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
20TH LEVEL: PERFECT SELF
You have honed your mind and body through rigorous training pushing them beyond their normal limitations gaining the following:
Empty Body. You can spend 8 Discipline Points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so, you can’t take any other creatures with you.
Timeless Body. You suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can’t be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however.
Trained Body. Increase ability scores of your choice by a combined total of 4. That can be four ability scores by 1, two ability scores by 2, one ability score by 1 and another by ability score by 3, one ability by 2 and two other ability scores by 1, or one ability score by 4. You can increase an ability score using this ability to a maximum of 24.
Its not bad, but the main issues I would say is it increases monk dependency on ki, making it generally 2-3 per round, not counting subclass. You increase Ki by 2-6, but you have probably doubled its use.
a level 5 shadow/elements monk for example, would likely spend 3 to 4 ki round one (shadow, step, daze or stun) and 2-3 round two. they then have no Ki for round 3 to 4.your monk with no Ki is better than 5e, because better MA dice, and extra ordinary reflexes, but its still pretty weak/rote, especially 6+ when other classes start to get improvements. Elements is similar, and mercy would generally use 1 extra ki most rounds.
They recover Ki one time after the 2nd battle, but essentially, they will generally be struggling with ki each fight. Which might not be all bad, but the baseline power level with no Ki would need to be higher. (note warlock also isnt expected to always have leveled spells, but its baseline is high with invocations/blast/blade/cantrips)
so I'd say imo for this concept to work it either needs more baseline use, more Ki generation, or lower Ki costs. Its a better monk than 5e, and in the realm of UA martials at a glance, but it will have Similar issues with ki, possibly more.
I haven't run any numbers, but its probably OK in damage guessitmate, though that could be adjusted if off
oh yeah, the capstone is worse than barbarian who gets +4 to two stats. I get it has other uses, but thats mostly flavor. I personally don't love attributes as a capstone in terms of fun/cool factor, but it does essentially give +1 do damage and accuracy, and likely +1 to defense and ki saves. However its worse than barb as I said, who gets twice the benefit
capstones at 20 is inferior to the capstones at 17-18 and epic at 20 to me, but here we are.
Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack 11.35 DPR 24 HP 15-16 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Heavy Xbow+ Hunter's Mark): 0.75*(5.5+3+3.5) 9 DPR 28 HP 15 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword): 0.65*(7+3) + 0.35*3 7.5 DPR 28 HP 16 AC
Level 5 - 8 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(2d4+4)*3 + 5/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack 16.5 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + ~1 enemy stunned 18.6 DPR - using FoB / Deflect Missiles 38 HP 16-17 AC
[Note: Stunning Strike remains the optimal play because damage now is better than damage later so if the enemy fails the CON save Stun > Dazed, if the enemy succeeds the CON save 2d4 > 1d4]
5eR DEX Ranger (Longbow+ Hunter's Mark + Charger): 0.75*(4.5+4+3.5)*2 + 0.91*4.5 22 DPR + enemy Slowed on every attack 44 HP 16 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword + GWM): (0.65*(7+4) + 0.35*4)*2.25 + 0.88*3 21.9 DPR 44 HP 17 AC
Level 12 - 10 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(3d4+5)*3 + 12/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack 23 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + 3 enemy stunned, or 5 enemies Dazed 29 DPR - using FoB 87 HP 18-19 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Longbow+ Hunter's Mark + Charger + ASI + Tough): 0.75*(4.5+5+3.5)*2 + 0.91*4.5 23.6 DPR + enemy Slowed on every attack 120 HP 17 AC
Note that Rangers gets half-casting (which can include walking on water at the same level a monk), plus Expertise, plus extra skill proficiency, while monk gets... basically no out of combat stuff.. Also if you want to focus more on conditions, a STR ranger can use a polearm with "Topple" for an attempt to knock prone for free on every attack.
1d4 is more than enough to start your unarmed strike as long as you aren’t often in a situation were you have to use you bonus action for something else.
The main reason people asked for it to be bumped up to d6 starting is that, with the 2014 Fighter, you could take Two Weapon Fighting with a pair of short swords and do better damage than a monk. Or a starting Rogue with two swords and its sneak attack bonus. Its not that d4 is bad, per say, its that it feels bad to be rolling worse than the baseline other classes use.
Gwar I originally wanted to add wisdom mod to the amount of DP, but from what JC has said in interviews it seems that WotC is opposed to that. Maybe they aren’t. I think that would help with DP cost. I would also add situations were you could use some abilities ar no cost, but some subclasses already have features that do that. I agree the Capstone is missing something but I was afraid adding more to it might be seen as too much. I was going to add a once per short rest defy death with no dp cost. I also agree I don’t like it being called discipline points or the whole discipline theme, but I can’t think of something as generic that can be reflavored as easily. I also think this Monks baseline damage no DP is better than Baseline 5e Monk no ki, but that’s not really saying much. I’ll give it another pass.
Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack 11.35 DPR 24 HP 15-16 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Heavy Xbow+ Hunter's Mark): 0.75*(5.5+3+3.5) 9 DPR 28 HP 15 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword): 0.65*(7+3) + 0.35*3 7.5 DPR 28 HP 16 AC
Level 5 - 8 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(2d4+4)*3 + 5/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack 16.5 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + ~1 enemy stunned 18.6 DPR - using FoB / Deflect Missiles 38 HP 16-17 AC
[Note: Stunning Strike remains the optimal play because damage now is better than damage later so if the enemy fails the CON save Stun > Dazed, if the enemy succeeds the CON save 2d4 > 1d4]
5eR DEX Ranger (Longbow+ Hunter's Mark + Charger): 0.75*(4.5+4+3.5)*2 + 0.91*4.5 22 DPR + enemy Slowed on every attack 44 HP 16 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword + GWM): (0.65*(7+4) + 0.35*4)*2.25 + 0.88*3 21.9 DPR 44 HP 17 AC
Level 12 - 10 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(3d4+5)*3 + 12/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack 23 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + 3 enemy stunned, or 5 enemies Dazed 29 DPR - using FoB 87 HP 18-19 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Longbow+ Hunter's Mark + Charger + ASI + Tough): 0.75*(4.5+5+3.5)*2 + 0.91*4.5 23.6 DPR + enemy Slowed on every attack 120 HP 17 AC
Note that Rangers gets half-casting (which can include walking on water at the same level a monk), plus Expertise, plus extra skill proficiency, while monk gets... basically no out of combat stuff.. Also if you want to focus more on conditions, a STR ranger can use a polearm with "Topple" for an attempt to knock prone for free on every attack.
The only things really helpful from this is your Stunning Strike observation and the observation that the Monk lacks any features that help outside of combat except my tongue and moon rewrite. Maybe it should be 1d4+1 additional damage for that 2ki cost. That way it gives something more than just opportunity to stun for the cost increase, but not so much more you feel like you have to be doing that. I don’t mind things being optimal. There will always be an optimal choice. My goql is to make sure it’s not the only reasonable choice. I already feel like the multiple options gives players something to think about. I probably should have come up with one that effects each save.
As much as I don’t like white room numbers if they are going to be useful it’s better to run them against Barbarian and Fighter. Trying to fix the caster divide has to be saved for 6e at this point. Also I believe at level 13th plus my Monk at least catches the Ranger in DPR.
You seem to like running the numbers if you could compare my monk to Fighter and Barbarian that could be helpful and appreciated.
1d4 is more than enough to start your unarmed strike as long as you aren’t often in a situation were you have to use you bonus action for something else.
The main reason people asked for it to be bumped up to d6 starting is that, with the 2014 Fighter, you could take Two Weapon Fighting with a pair of short swords and do better damage than a monk. Or a starting Rogue with two swords and its sneak attack bonus. Its not that d4 is bad, per say, its that it feels bad to be rolling worse than the baseline other classes use.
Hmmm they are looking at the numbers wrong in 5e.
1st level Fighter with Two weapon Fighting. Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6+3. Rogue using two weapons Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6, if they get sneak attack (they have to qualify) 1d6. Monk using a quaterstaff or spear Action attack 1d8+3, BA attack 1d4+3
So they are all pretty close. This version scales far better than 5e Monk and the 5eR UA Monk. At 5th level this version is already better than the 5eR UA monk.
1st level Fighter with Two weapon Fighting. Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6+3. Rogue using two weapons Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6, if they get sneak attack (they have to qualify) 1d6. Monk using a quaterstaff or spear Action attack 1d8+3, BA attack 1d4+3
So they are all pretty close. This version scales far better than 5e Monk and the 5eR UA Monk. At 5th level this version is already better than the 5eR UA monk.
Monk is the unarmed attack class. Many people that play the class do so because they like that fantasy of fighting with nothing more than their body, without weapons and armor.
That's not "looking at the numbers wrong." That's "badly designed class that doesn't live up to its promised fantasy." That's a problem.
1st level Fighter with Two weapon Fighting. Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6+3. Rogue using two weapons Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6, if they get sneak attack (they have to qualify) 1d6. Monk using a quaterstaff or spear Action attack 1d8+3, BA attack 1d4+3
So they are all pretty close. This version scales far better than 5e Monk and the 5eR UA Monk. At 5th level this version is already better than the 5eR UA monk.
Monk is the unarmed attack class. Many people that play the class do so because they like that fantasy of fighting with nothing more than their body, without weapons and armor.
That's not "looking at the numbers wrong." That's "badly designed class that doesn't live up to its promised fantasy." That's a problem.
But Monk does live up to the unarmed striking fantasy. Even 5e monk allows your Strikes to be as strong as glaives at level 17. Monks clearly were never designed to do one thing only. Honestly just look at all the monk art in the books. Even in 3e they had a quarterstaff. I think the 5e monk has a shortsword. It’s not bad design. It like wanting the wizard to cast fireball at lvl 1. At level 1 Monk has the best unarmed strikes even with only a d4. I know some people complained about the unarmed fighting style, but even that is inferior to monks since it’s only one unarmed attack at a d6 or d8 per round, while the Monk gets two attacks. Also we are talking about 1 damage on average. Most who really play a Monk would definitely petition for for 1d4 scaling like a cantrip over the current system even if they get a d6 at level 1 in the UA. 1d4, 2d4, 3d4, 4d4 scaling is far superior to 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12 scaling. This is one of those weird things people get caught up on that prevents the monk from actually being better in this game. If you and all your friends are dead set on not using weapons at level 1 you are two damage behind a very particular fighter and that’s okay, because he is a trained combatant as well. He trained just as hard as you and is using a force multiplier. At second level you beat him in damage because of flurry of blows.
Most who really play a Monk would definitely petition for for 1d4 scaling like a cantrip over the current system even if they get a d6 at level 1 in the UA.
I think the issue is more that certain races like Aarakocra have d6 damage unarmed strikes as standard, which makes them seem like a better choice for Monks if the base Monk unarmed strikes start out worse.
There's no reason the scaling needs to have only a single die type though; you could easily do d6 into 2d4, or use d6's and scale at different levels etc. I think the key thing is that it scales; personally I wouldn't mind if it scaled in smaller increments more often, even if that meant changing die types.
Maybe I'm just weird, but I really like getting my extra sneak attack dice every two levels on Rogue, whereas cantrip scaling on casters always feels like it takes forever.
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Most who really play a Monk would definitely petition for for 1d4 scaling like a cantrip over the current system even if they get a d6 at level 1 in the UA.
I think the issue is more that certain races like Aarakocra have d6 damage unarmed strikes as standard, which makes them seem like a better choice for Monks if the base Monk unarmed strikes start out worse.
There's no reason the scaling needs to have only a single die type though; you could easily do d6 into 2d4, or use d6's and scale at different levels etc. I think the key thing is that it scales; personally I wouldn't mind if it scaled in smaller increments more often, even if that meant change die types.
Maybe I'm just weird, but I really like getting my extra sneak attack dice every two levels on Rogue, whereas cantrip scaling on casters always feels like it takes forever.
So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.
Also before I make a second run at this what does everyone think a fair amount of Discipline Points? My last mock up was level + proficiency which is 4 at level. Gwar feels that it is still too few, but if you also add Wis(minimum 1) it might be too much. If something is literally meant to be done every turn at no cost then what’s the point in points. For those who didn’t read my mock up here is a TLDR version:
You can wear up to medium armor but lose some features the more armor you wear, but can functionally be an armor wearing monk MA dice scales 1d4>2d4>3d4>4d4, so far two people don’t think that’s good enough because they want the 1 additional damage a d6 brings at level 1 PD refunded the cost if you got hit. I’m planning on changing that to just giving the bonus action attack in the next mock up. SotW allows you to make the bonus action attack if you want. I added some more reactions along side Deflect Missiles. Added options other than stunning strike and additional damage to stunning strike that just happens. Stunning strike cost increased to 2 DP. Brought Acrobatics Movement to 7th level allowing you to walk on water sooner. Adding some OoC utility to this in next mock up to help ability checks. Brought Disciplined Survivor Down to 9th level so more players can actually enjoy have proficiency in all saving throws. Reworded Self Restoration so everyone knows what it does. Reworked Tongue of sun and moon into something that works with the UA vibe and gave it a combat application. At 20th created a version of Perfect Self that slightly mirrors the Barbarian capstone, but still does different things as well. It was found lacking so the next mock up will include a version Defy Death in the feature along side empty body and timeless body.
the more of us pushing for the same goals the more likely we are to get something close to it.
Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack 11.35 DPR 24 HP 15-16 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Heavy Xbow+ Hunter's Mark): 0.75*(5.5+3+3.5) 9 DPR 28 HP 15 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword): 0.65*(7+3) + 0.35*3 7.5 DPR 28 HP 16 AC
The only things really helpful from this is your Stunning Strike observation and the observation that the Monk lacks any features that help outside of combat except my tongue and moon rewrite. Maybe it should be 1d4+1 additional damage for that 2ki cost. That way it gives something more than just opportunity to stun for the cost increase, but not so much more you feel like you have to be doing that. I don’t mind things being optimal. There will always be an optimal choice. My goql is to make sure it’s not the only reasonable choice. I already feel like the multiple options gives players something to think about. I probably should have come up with one that effects each save.
As much as I don’t like white room numbers if they are going to be useful it’s better to run them against Barbarian and Fighter. Trying to fix the caster divide has to be saved for 6e at this point. Also I believe at level 13th plus my Monk at least catches the Ranger in DPR.
You seem to like running the numbers if you could compare my monk to Fighter and Barbarian that could be helpful and appreciated.
Barbarian and Fighter do even more damage, I used Ranger because they are typically seen as "average" martial damage, and are skirmishers like monk, whereas Barb & Fighter are much more tanky and much more DPR. As for your other options vs Stunning Strike, they are terrible, I'd never ever use them which is why I didn't even mention them. 1 DP for 40% chance of -1d4 to maybe 2 saving throws? Who would waste their time with that? It's worse than 1/3rd of a 1st level spell! And Slowing Strike is just worse than Topple which any martial (including Monk) can get for free by using a weapon.
Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack 11.35 DPR 24 HP 15-16 AC
5eR Barbarian (2x Scimitar + Rage + Reckless): 0.88*(3.5+3+2+3.5+2) 12.3 DPR 35 HP + Resistance to b/s/p 15 AC
5eR Melee Fighter (Greatsword + GWF): 0.65*(7+3+0.8) + 0.35*3 9.3 DPR 28 HP + 2*(8.5) = 45 16 AC
Level 5 - 8 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(2d4+4)*3 + 5/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack 16.5 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + ~1 enemy stunned 18.6 DPR - using FoB / Deflect Missiles 38 HP 16-17 AC
5eR Barbarian (Halberd + PAM + Reckless): 0.88*(5.5+4+2)*2.25 + 0.88*(2.5+4+2) + 0.25*0.88*(5.5+2) (Cleave) 31.9 DPR 55 HP + Resistance to b/s/p 15 AC
Level 12 - 10 rounds of combat between SRs Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(3d4+5)*3 + 12/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack 23 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + 3 enemy stunned, or 5 enemies Dazed 29 DPR - using FoB 87 HP 18-19 AC
5eR Barbarian (Halberd + PAM + Reckless + GWM + ASI): 0.88*((5.5+5+3)*2.25 + 2.5+3+5) + 4 + 0.25*0.88*(5.5+3) (Cleave) 41.8 DPR 125 HP + Resistance to b/s/p 17 AC
Note, Barbarian can use their Rage to get Adv and a bonus to multiple ability checks, Fighter can use their Second Wind as a bonus to any ability check.
The 5e base Monk features are okay mechanically at allowing the monk to do what fits the theme when looked at separately and in white room. In play compared to other classes they fell short for one reason or another. The 5eR Monk almost seems to want to strip the spirituality of the class and claim it’s purely physical feats that way they can avoid the connection to Ki. I think the best method achieve the spiritual Monk is to simply improve the 5e monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense is mechanically a physical and spiritual feature. The flaw is because of other features the monk is forced to use it and it doesn’t keep up with defenses of other Martials. The fix is either to allow Unarmored Defense to give a greater AC or to allow it to change the style of play, such as giving free disengage. Since disengage is part of Rogue’s cunning action and playstyle it would need to be limited or different in some way to keep the classes unique. Maybe disengage as a bonus action a number to time equal to you dexterity mod + wisdom per long rest.
1st Martial Arts is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is weapons almost always out pace MA die in 5e and in 5eR Weapon masteries still keep weapons as the superior option. The fix is to change the grow of the MA die. 5eR starts with 1d6 and scales to 1D12, I think it’s better to start with 1d4 just like 5e but to scale by 1d4 instead of increasing the die size. So 1d4 at first, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, and 4d4 at 17th
2nd Ki is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is that it’s clearly Asian, the amount of points you have at low level are exhausted quickly needing a short rest to recharge and the abilities other than FoB make you give up a Martial Arts benefit of the bonus action unarmed strike. The fix is to continue what 5eR already did calling it Martial Discipline. Creating a one minute recharge mechanic once a long rest. Also just allowing an unarmed strike as part of using Step of the Wind and Patient Defense fixes both of them.
2nd Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
3rd Deflect Missles is mechanically a peak physical feature and is fine.
4th Slow Fall is mechanically a peak physical feature possibly a spiritual feature and is fine. I might combine improved unarmed movement with this feature because that feature comes online to late in the monk’s career but this might be too early.
5th Extra Attack is fine.
5th Stunning Strike is mechanically a peak physical or spiritual feature depending on how you view it. 5e flavor text describes it as Ki related thus spiritual. The flaw is that it is all or nothing and when it does work it is really strong. 5eR already fixed some of its power problems by limiting it to one attempt on your turn. The problem that needs fixing is the all or nothing factor. Also since it can only be attempted once per turn you should gain something for spending the points. Making it similar to smite spells that have a rider would work best. Meaning you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target must make a con save or be stunned.
6th Empowered Strikes is mechanically a spiritual feature that is fine.
7th Evasion is mechanically a peak physical feature that is fine.
7th Stillness of Mind is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it uses your action and isn’t worded properly to let everyone know how to use it properly. The fix is reword it and make it use a bonus action. If you start your turn with the Charmed or Frightened Condition you may immediately use your bonus action to end the effect causing the condition.
9th Improve Unarmored Movement is mechanically a peak physical feature. It should be given at an earlier level. I often push for it to be 4th level but that might be too soon. 6th feels right but other more important things are gained at that level.
10th Purity of Body is a mechanically a peak physical, mental or spiritual feature that is fine. But moving into 5eR it needs to change because disease no longer mechanically exist. The UA combined Stillness of Mind and this feature into one to create space at 7th level. That could be fine if you move Improved Unarmored Movement to 7th and use the UA Deflect Energy at 9th.
13th Tongue of Sun and Moon is mechanically a spiritual or mental feature depending on your view. The flaw is it’s not a strong enough social pillar improvement to justify it not aiding in the combat pillar. The fix is to rename the feature and have it focus on mental energy allowing you to understand all language, be understood and once per turn if you miss with an attack that uses your MA die you deal half the attacks damage as psychic damage (so it’s like graze)
14th Diamond Soul is mechanically a peak physical spiritual and mental feature. It is fine and the rename in the 5eR UA is fine as well.
15th Timeless Body is mechanically a peak physical feature. The flaw is it doesn’t really do a thing that is mechanically beneficial. It’s has great RP potential, but why even have this.The fix is to use something similar to the 5eR UA feature, but instead of getting 4 points back if you start initiative with 0 you just get put to 4 points back when you start initiative.
18th Empty Body is mechanically a spiritual feature and is fine. But the way they want to do things in 5eR I think Superior Defense from the UA is okay if you move Astral projection to 20th level. The UA feature is clearlya peak physical feature so you lose the spiritually using that feature.
20th Perfect Self is mechanically a spiritual feature. The flaw is it’s a bad capstone. There are multiple fixes for this. Right now I feel inspired by someone who suggested mirroring the Barbarian capstone. To make it different I would say the monk get 4 ASI points they can put in any stats of their choosing, so +1,+1,+1,+1, or +1,+1,+2, or +1,+3, or a +4 to any stats and those stats can be raised to a maximum of 26. Additionally I would have astral projection and timeless body as part of this featue. The new feature would mechanically represent peak physical, spiritual and mental training.
I like a lot of these ideas, but one thing I would add is that Diamond Soul is another feature that's good but comes in way too late; we've had people (mostly Lilith) argue that Monks getting all save proficiencies is a powerful feature, and it is to a degree, but anything beyond 11th- or 12th-level may as well not exist in most campaigns, as most Monks will never even get that feature.
If saving proficiency is to be considered a core Monk feature then it should really come in sooner, or be split into two half features. If Monks continue to get Dexterity and Strength as saving proficiencies at 1st-level, then they should IMO get Wisdom and Charisma to give them a big edge on saving throw proficiencies as a core class feature in tier 2 somewhere. Then later they can get the final two (Constitution and Intelligence) alongside the Ki point re-rolls to boost that into becoming saving throw passing machines.
Basically tier 3 and 4 features should be mostly about upgrading or supplementing what you already have as core features, they shouldn't be anything you might consider iconic to or a fundamental part of the class, simply because most campaigns will never get that far unless they start at a high level or level up rapidly.
Since they haven't changed it in the playtests (unless I missed it) the obvious point of comparison is the Paladin's Aura of Protection; unless you're running a low Charisma Paladin this gives not only you, but everyone with 10 feet of you, a boost to all saves that actually stacks on top of proficiency, so it's a superior feature to 14th-level Diamond Soul in nearly every way, but is gained at 6th-level where you'll actually get to use it in most campaigns. Now that aura is arguably too strong (on an already very strong class) so Monk doesn't necessarily need to compete fully with that, but I think it makes a good case for why they need to get part of Diamond Soul earlier.
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I like these ideas. I don’t know if disengage needs to be limited to somehow be different from Rogue’s Cunning Action. I’ve mentioned in the past (maybe others have as well) that giving an unarmed strike as part of Patient Defense and Step of the Wind could be an option. I know you moved it to part of Unarmored Defense so maybe the limited disengage would not require the action economy at all? On your turn you can declare you are fighting defensively and have Disengage until the start of your next turn? Or something like that. Edit: Then a tight limit might be necessary (an always on disengage would be too powerful) and then have the usual disengage via SotW bonus action?
I don’t like starting unarmed strikes at d4 (species all now do d6 with natural weapons) but it does scale better in the end.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I agree with you. And I believe you had a similar idea way back in another thread and it had merit then as well. Splitting up the save proficiencies is an interesting approach and actually allows it to come into play during most campaigns.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
this is an interesting analysis from a certain perspective, but overall, in the context of one dnd, I think monk can't just be a remixed 5e thing.
every martial has gained dramatic versatility, power, and 'fun'.
Barbarian can now perform most powerful skill checks that a martial might want to do related to combat, with low chance of failure. stealth(sneaking), athletics(jumping/physical feats), perception (getting first attacks) intimidation (ending fights early, forcing run/surrender) They have full use of weapon mastery, weapons, rage working with throwing weapons, off turn reckless, etc. Many more choices and options in play.
fighter gets tactical mind for skill checks, tactical shift for movement, the most versatile use of mastery, creating new weapon combos, More second wind uses, They have essentially all increased their turn to turn choices by increased damage, increased survivability, increased movement, increased enemy control/manipulation.
rogue gets cunning strikes, and mastery, with previous skill use, they basically have tons of options and gameplay available to them.
half casters also improved in options and power
ranger/paladin already had many options, but paladin had other smites improved and thus more viable, mastery, and an expanded spell list(may change but who knows how) they both add mastery to their already strong list of combat options. Generally improving their damage, and survivability in other features.
So if monk remains mostly the same with just a damage boost, they will basically be the least fun class to play with the fewest options that matter related to combat. Your focus unarmed damage as opposed to mastery, essentially makes mastery not a real option for them. A big part of mastery is giving roughly similar benefit, and mostly being situational. If there is one weapon/option that gives + 7.5-4.5 damage, its probably not worth using anything else. Your monk really will almost never use mastery after 5, and never after 11.Which means their gameplay loop will essentially be FOB every round, dodge if you have to, step if you need to get close.
Combine this with the fact, its actually not enough, If all they really do is pure damage, this is still not enough damage. 4d4 is 10 damage. per hit, but paladin is up to 11.5 damage per hit, (2d6+d8) barbarian is (2d6+6=13.5) with advantage, Ranger is (2d6+3.5+5=16). Monks do get an extra attack out of it, but with fighting styles, spells, feats, this is surpassed, or equalled, but with a lot more versatility. Not to mention generally low power subclasses.
Now, I don't think being the best dps with fewer options should be the goal, or being an average dps with fewer options. If this was 5e, it would be a fine monk, but in onednd, i don't think so.
Because the first playtest monk was so undercooked, we had to spend most of our energy fixing their flaws, instead of getting them up to snuff for onednd world.
I think monk probably needs a changeable mastery on unarmed strikes, or the MA die on weapons back, or both. They need a new sub menu of expanded options in battle, or at least 2-3 new options(cunning strikes, tactical). Most the things you mention also need a fix, whether your way, or another. (base defense, damage scaling, pd/step value increase) Though ideally, I'd try to make it more fun, rather than just number boosts.
as an aside, although barbarian is improved, I think it could still use some interesting options, preferably in t3/t4 where their amount of cool features is fairly low. Rogue baseline power assuming no off turn feels low)
PS. imo discipline points is a very bad name, it doesn't flow well in concept, meaning, or language. Also the desire to hide/erase the Asian origin of the monk class is of questionable value, and I don't think they actually achieve that goal. I'm not gonna die on a hill opposing those changes, because I can ignore their flavoring anyhow, but its doing nothing for the class, and in some cases making it worse. (removal of flavorful ribbons replaced with nothing, weaker lore, fantasy)
1d4 is more than enough to start your unarmed strike as long as you aren’t often in a situation were you have to use you bonus action for something else. Which is why I agree that all the Martial Discipline abilities should include the opportunity to make that unarmed strike as part of that bonus action. That means at levels 1-4 Monk is usually often dealing 2d4+6 if they have a Str or Dex of 16. Honestly it could be higher considering you could use a weapon for you action attack.
if this was in response to me, I wasn't saying 1d4 is a problem low level. I was saying 4d4 at a top level isnt strong enough to make up for the lack of everything else the new one dnd martials have in terms of damage and bonus effects/versatility.
level 1-4 monk would be fine, or fine enough for those early levels.
I agree the bonus unarmed attack mathematically solves the low value of pd/step.
How about something like this:
HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d8 per Monk level
PROFICIENCIES
Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity
Skills (Choose 2): Acrobatics, Athletics, History,
Insight, Religion, Stealth
Weapons: Simple Weapons
Tools: Choose one type of Artisan’s Tool or Musical
Instrument
ARMOR TRAINING
Light Armor, Medium Armor
1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmored or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield:
Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.
Martial Arts Dice. You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. The number of dice increases as you gain Monk levels, 2d4 at 5th, 3d4 at 11th, 4d4 at 12th.
1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE
While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, as bonus action you can select one creature within 5ft of you to be unable to make Attacks of Opportunity against you until the end of your turn.
1ST LEVEL: WEAPON MASTERY
Your training with weapons allows you to use the Mastery property of two kinds of Simple weapons of your choice, such as Daggers and Spears.
Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of Simple weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the Mastery properties of Maces and Slings.
2ND LEVEL: MARTIAL DISCIPLINE
Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Discipline Points. Your Monk level plus proficiency bonus determine the number of points you have, as shown in the Discipline Points column of the Monk table.
You can spend these points to fuel various Martial Discipline features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Martial Discipline features as you gain levels in this class.
When you spend a Discipline Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Once per long rest you may spend 1 minute in a meditative state at the end of which you regain all expended Discipline Points. While in the meditative state you are Blinded, sitting Prone, your speed is zero, you can’t take bonus actions, and must use your action each turn to maintain the state. If the 1 minute meditative state is interrupted you do not gain any of its benefits, but you may attempt to use the meditative state again before you complete a long rest.
Some of your Martial Discipline features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC
equals 8 plus your Proficiency Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.
Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.
Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If you are hit by an attack and take damage before the start of your next turn you regain 1 Discipline Point at the start of your next turn (only 1 no matter how many times you were hit and took damage)
Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action:
2ND LEVEL: UNARMORED MOVEMENT
Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. While wearing Light Armor and not wielding a Shield you still gain some of the benefits of this increased movement. Your speed increases by half the amount shown on the monk table rounded up to the nearest increment of 5 feet.
3RD LEVEL: EXTRAORDINARY REFLEXES
3RD LEVEL: MONK SUBCLASS
You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Warrior of Mercy, Warrior of Shadow, Warrior of the Four Elements, or Warrior of the Open Hand. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description (for this playtest, use Way of Mercy from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything for Warrior of Mercy).
A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at certain Monk levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Monk level and lower.
4TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
4TH LEVEL: SLOW FALL
You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.
5TH LEVEL: EXTRA ATTACK
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
5TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED STRIKES
Once per turn when you hit a creature with a Simple Weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can spend Discipline Points to attempt a special strike:
6TH LEVEL: EMPOWERED STRIKES
Whenever you deal damage with your Unarmed Strike, it can deal your choice of Force damage or its normal damage type.
6TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
7TH LEVEL: EVASION
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.
7TH LEVEL: ACROBATIC MOVEMENT
While you aren’t wearing Medium or Heavy Armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
8TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
9TH LEVEL: DISCIPLINED SURVIVOR
Your physical and mental discipline grant you proficiency in all saving throws.
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to reroll it and take the second result.
10TH LEVEL: SELF-RESTORATION
Through sheer force of will, if you start your turn with Charmed, Frightened, or Poisoned condition you can immediately use a Bonus Action to remove one of the conditions from yourself.
In addition, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you levels of Exhaustion.
11TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
12TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
13TH LEVEL: DEFLECT ENERGY
You can now use your Deflect Missiles feature against ranged attacks that deal any damage type, not just Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing.
14TH LEVEL: CONNECTED UNDERSTANDING
Your extraordinary internal energy extends beyond your physical body connecting you to other creatures. You gain the following:
15TH LEVEL: PERFECT DISCIPLINE
When you roll Initiative, you regain 4 expended Discipline Points if you have less than half your maximum Discipline Points remaining.
16TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
17TH LEVEL: SUBCLASS FEATURE
You gain a feature from your Monk subclass.
18TH LEVEL: SUPERIOR DEFENSE
As a Bonus Action, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to perfectly bolster yourself against harm for 1 minute or until you are Incapacitated. During that time, you have resistance to all damage except Force damage.
19TH LEVEL: ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
20TH LEVEL: PERFECT SELF
You have honed your mind and body through rigorous training pushing them beyond their normal limitations gaining the following:
Its not bad, but the main issues I would say is it increases monk dependency on ki, making it generally 2-3 per round, not counting subclass. You increase Ki by 2-6, but you have probably doubled its use.
a level 5 shadow/elements monk for example, would likely spend 3 to 4 ki round one (shadow, step, daze or stun) and 2-3 round two. they then have no Ki for round 3 to 4.your monk with no Ki is better than 5e, because better MA dice, and extra ordinary reflexes, but its still pretty weak/rote, especially 6+ when other classes start to get improvements. Elements is similar, and mercy would generally use 1 extra ki most rounds.
They recover Ki one time after the 2nd battle, but essentially, they will generally be struggling with ki each fight. Which might not be all bad, but the baseline power level with no Ki would need to be higher. (note warlock also isnt expected to always have leveled spells, but its baseline is high with invocations/blast/blade/cantrips)
so I'd say imo for this concept to work it either needs more baseline use, more Ki generation, or lower Ki costs. Its a better monk than 5e, and in the realm of UA martials at a glance, but it will have Similar issues with ki, possibly more.
I haven't run any numbers, but its probably OK in damage guessitmate, though that could be adjusted if off
oh yeah, the capstone is worse than barbarian who gets +4 to two stats. I get it has other uses, but thats mostly flavor. I personally don't love attributes as a capstone in terms of fun/cool factor, but it does essentially give +1 do damage and accuracy, and likely +1 to defense and ki saves. However its worse than barb as I said, who gets twice the benefit
capstones at 20 is inferior to the capstones at 17-18 and epic at 20 to me, but here we are.
Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack
11.35 DPR
24 HP
15-16 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Heavy Xbow+ Hunter's Mark): 0.75*(5.5+3+3.5)
9 DPR
28 HP
15 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword): 0.65*(7+3) + 0.35*3
7.5 DPR
28 HP
16 AC
Level 5 - 8 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(2d4+4)*3 + 5/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack
16.5 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + ~1 enemy stunned
18.6 DPR - using FoB / Deflect Missiles
38 HP
16-17 AC
[Note: Stunning Strike remains the optimal play because damage now is better than damage later so if the enemy fails the CON save Stun > Dazed, if the enemy succeeds the CON save 2d4 > 1d4]
5eR DEX Ranger (Longbow+ Hunter's Mark + Charger): 0.75*(4.5+4+3.5)*2 + 0.91*4.5
22 DPR + enemy Slowed on every attack
44 HP
16 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Greatsword + GWM): (0.65*(7+4) + 0.35*4)*2.25 + 0.88*3
21.9 DPR
44 HP
17 AC
Level 12 - 10 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(3d4+5)*3 + 12/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack
23 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + 3 enemy stunned, or 5 enemies Dazed
29 DPR - using FoB
87 HP
18-19 AC
5eR DEX Ranger (Longbow+ Hunter's Mark + Charger + ASI + Tough): 0.75*(4.5+5+3.5)*2 + 0.91*4.5
23.6 DPR + enemy Slowed on every attack
120 HP
17 AC
5eR STR Ranger (Glaive + GWM + PAM + Sentinel): (0.65*(5.5+5) + 0.35*5)*2.75 +(0.65*(2.5+5) + 0.35*5)
30 DPR
110 HP
17 AC
Note that Rangers gets half-casting (which can include walking on water at the same level a monk), plus Expertise, plus extra skill proficiency, while monk gets... basically no out of combat stuff.. Also if you want to focus more on conditions, a STR ranger can use a polearm with "Topple" for an attempt to knock prone for free on every attack.
The main reason people asked for it to be bumped up to d6 starting is that, with the 2014 Fighter, you could take Two Weapon Fighting with a pair of short swords and do better damage than a monk. Or a starting Rogue with two swords and its sneak attack bonus. Its not that d4 is bad, per say, its that it feels bad to be rolling worse than the baseline other classes use.
Gwar I originally wanted to add wisdom mod to the amount of DP, but from what JC has said in interviews it seems that WotC is opposed to that. Maybe they aren’t. I think that would help with DP cost. I would also add situations were you could use some abilities ar no cost, but some subclasses already have features that do that. I agree the Capstone is missing something but I was afraid adding more to it might be seen as too much. I was going to add a once per short rest defy death with no dp cost. I also agree I don’t like it being called discipline points or the whole discipline theme, but I can’t think of something as generic that can be reflavored as easily. I also think this Monks baseline damage no DP is better than Baseline 5e Monk no ki, but that’s not really saying much. I’ll give it another pass.
The only things really helpful from this is your Stunning Strike observation and the observation that the Monk lacks any features that help outside of combat except my tongue and moon rewrite. Maybe it should be 1d4+1 additional damage for that 2ki cost. That way it gives something more than just opportunity to stun for the cost increase, but not so much more you feel like you have to be doing that. I don’t mind things being optimal. There will always be an optimal choice. My goql is to make sure it’s not the only reasonable choice. I already feel like the multiple options gives players something to think about. I probably should have come up with one that effects each save.
As much as I don’t like white room numbers if they are going to be useful it’s better to run them against Barbarian and Fighter. Trying to fix the caster divide has to be saved for 6e at this point. Also I believe at level 13th plus my Monk at least catches the Ranger in DPR.
You seem to like running the numbers if you could compare my monk to Fighter and Barbarian that could be helpful and appreciated.
Hmmm they are looking at the numbers wrong in 5e.
1st level
Fighter with Two weapon Fighting. Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6+3.
Rogue using two weapons Action attack 1d6+3, BA attack 1d6, if they get sneak attack (they have to qualify) 1d6.
Monk using a quaterstaff or spear Action attack 1d8+3, BA attack 1d4+3
So they are all pretty close. This version scales far better than 5e Monk and the 5eR UA Monk. At 5th level this version is already better than the 5eR UA monk.
Monk is the unarmed attack class. Many people that play the class do so because they like that fantasy of fighting with nothing more than their body, without weapons and armor.
That's not "looking at the numbers wrong." That's "badly designed class that doesn't live up to its promised fantasy." That's a problem.
But Monk does live up to the unarmed striking fantasy. Even 5e monk allows your Strikes to be as strong as glaives at level 17. Monks clearly were never designed to do one thing only. Honestly just look at all the monk art in the books. Even in 3e they had a quarterstaff. I think the 5e monk has a shortsword. It’s not bad design. It like wanting the wizard to cast fireball at lvl 1. At level 1 Monk has the best unarmed strikes even with only a d4. I know some people complained about the unarmed fighting style, but even that is inferior to monks since it’s only one unarmed attack at a d6 or d8 per round, while the Monk gets two attacks. Also we are talking about 1 damage on average. Most who really play a Monk would definitely petition for for 1d4 scaling like a cantrip over the current system even if they get a d6 at level 1 in the UA. 1d4, 2d4, 3d4, 4d4 scaling is far superior to 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12 scaling. This is one of those weird things people get caught up on that prevents the monk from actually being better in this game. If you and all your friends are dead set on not using weapons at level 1 you are two damage behind a very particular fighter and that’s okay, because he is a trained combatant as well. He trained just as hard as you and is using a force multiplier. At second level you beat him in damage because of flurry of blows.
I think the issue is more that certain races like Aarakocra have d6 damage unarmed strikes as standard, which makes them seem like a better choice for Monks if the base Monk unarmed strikes start out worse.
There's no reason the scaling needs to have only a single die type though; you could easily do d6 into 2d4, or use d6's and scale at different levels etc. I think the key thing is that it scales; personally I wouldn't mind if it scaled in smaller increments more often, even if that meant changing die types.
Maybe I'm just weird, but I really like getting my extra sneak attack dice every two levels on Rogue, whereas cantrip scaling on casters always feels like it takes forever.
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So they want a punch to hurt more than a person sized claw. Really think about it. Would you rather get punched or kicked by whomever you think is the hardest hitter in the world (prime Mike Tyson for me) or let an eight year old with a dagger stab you? I’m letting Mike hit me personally, but the choice is yours.
Also before I make a second run at this what does everyone think a fair amount of Discipline Points? My last mock up was level + proficiency which is 4 at level. Gwar feels that it is still too few, but if you also add Wis(minimum 1) it might be too much. If something is literally meant to be done every turn at no cost then what’s the point in points. For those who didn’t read my mock up here is a TLDR version:
You can wear up to medium armor but lose some features the more armor you wear, but can functionally be an armor wearing monk
MA dice scales 1d4>2d4>3d4>4d4, so far two people don’t think that’s good enough because they want the 1 additional damage a d6 brings at level 1
PD refunded the cost if you got hit. I’m planning on changing that to just giving the bonus action attack in the next mock up.
SotW allows you to make the bonus action attack if you want.
I added some more reactions along side Deflect Missiles.
Added options other than stunning strike and additional damage to stunning strike that just happens. Stunning strike cost increased to 2 DP.
Brought Acrobatics Movement to 7th level allowing you to walk on water sooner. Adding some OoC utility to this in next mock up to help ability checks.
Brought Disciplined Survivor Down to 9th level so more players can actually enjoy have proficiency in all saving throws.
Reworded Self Restoration so everyone knows what it does.
Reworked Tongue of sun and moon into something that works with the UA vibe and gave it a combat application.
At 20th created a version of Perfect Self that slightly mirrors the Barbarian capstone, but still does different things as well. It was found lacking so the next mock up will include a version Defy Death in the feature along side empty body and timeless body.
the more of us pushing for the same goals the more likely we are to get something close to it.
Barbarian and Fighter do even more damage, I used Ranger because they are typically seen as "average" martial damage, and are skirmishers like monk, whereas Barb & Fighter are much more tanky and much more DPR. As for your other options vs Stunning Strike, they are terrible, I'd never ever use them which is why I didn't even mention them. 1 DP for 40% chance of -1d4 to maybe 2 saving throws? Who would waste their time with that? It's worse than 1/3rd of a 1st level spell! And Slowing Strike is just worse than Topple which any martial (including Monk) can get for free by using a weapon.
Level 3 - 6 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(1d4+3)*2 + 3/SR 0.65*(1d4+3) + reroll a missed BA attack
11.35 DPR
24 HP
15-16 AC
5eR Barbarian (2x Scimitar + Rage + Reckless): 0.88*(3.5+3+2+3.5+2)
12.3 DPR
35 HP + Resistance to b/s/p
15 AC
5eR Melee Fighter (Greatsword + GWF): 0.65*(7+3+0.8) + 0.35*3
9.3 DPR
28 HP + 2*(8.5) = 45
16 AC
Level 5 - 8 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(2d4+4)*3 + 5/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack
16.5 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + ~1 enemy stunned
18.6 DPR - using FoB / Deflect Missiles
38 HP
16-17 AC
5eR Barbarian (Halberd + PAM + Reckless): 0.88*(5.5+4+2)*2.25 + 0.88*(2.5+4+2) + 0.25*0.88*(5.5+2) (Cleave)
31.9 DPR
55 HP + Resistance to b/s/p
15 AC
5eR Melee Fighter (Greatsword + GWM + GWF): (0.65*(7+4+0.8) + 0.35*4)*2.25 + 0.88*3
24.3 DPR
44 HP + 3*10.5 = 75
17 AC
Level 12 - 10 rounds of combat between SRs
Ain_Undos' Monk: 0.65*(3d4+5)*3 + 12/SR*1d4 + reroll a missed BA attack
23 DPR - using Disciplined Strikes + 3 enemy stunned, or 5 enemies Dazed
29 DPR - using FoB
87 HP
18-19 AC
5eR Barbarian (Halberd + PAM + Reckless + GWM + ASI): 0.88*((5.5+5+3)*2.25 + 2.5+3+5) + 4 + 0.25*0.88*(5.5+3) (Cleave)
41.8 DPR
125 HP + Resistance to b/s/p
17 AC
5eR Melee Fighter (Glaive + GWM + PAM + Sentinel + Tough+GWF): (0.65*(5.5+5+0.8) + 0.35*5)*3.75 +(0.65*(2.5+5+0.8) + 0.35*5)
42 DPR
120 HP + 17.5*4 = 190
18 AC
Note, Barbarian can use their Rage to get Adv and a bonus to multiple ability checks, Fighter can use their Second Wind as a bonus to any ability check.