This is why the ability should be improved. Being missed by an attack of a certain type and having a target within range are already plenty of conditions. It should not cost extra Ki, nor should it require a Reaction.
It only costs those things in the situation where it's useful. If an improvement is needed, it should be one that makes it more frequently relevant.
This is why the ability should be improved. Being missed by an attack of a certain type and having a target within range are already plenty of conditions. It should not cost extra Ki, nor should it require a Reaction.
It only costs those things in the situation where it's useful. If an improvement is needed, it should be one that makes it more frequently relevant.
Again, I suggested this a couple of pages ago & on the last page, but why not change the Bonus Unarmed Strike part of Martial Arts to the following:
Flexable Style: When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or simple weapon on your turn, as a bonus action you can either make one Unarmed strike or take a Defensive Stance. When you take a Defensive Stance, until the start of your next turn, the first melee attack that targets you each turn is made with disadvantage.
Since each of the warrior classes have their own key characteristics for staying in combat (Barbarian: high hp & damage resistance but low AC, Fighter: high AC, middling hp, flexible build options) why not make simply being very hard to hit in melee via disadvantage on enemy attacks one of the Monk’s key characteristics? You can improve this feature at higher levels by allowing the monk to do both options at the same time or by keeping the choice but improve both options.
This would give monks a defensive option to use in combat from lvl 1, whilst also keeping their option to do additional damage open. It also wouldn’t take much away from the Martial Disciplines as they give stronger effects for the cost of a discipline point. It also would mean that you're not trying to get higher and higher AC scores as your only defence.
Since posting this last time, I’ve also asked @Agilemind, who has kindly run the numbers for me, and this change makes the basic monk slightly more survivable in combat than a fighter with chain mail & shield between levels 1-4. This does drop off slightly when extra attack comes in at level 5 & assumes that the fighter would switch to plate armour, but is still a significant improvement over the base class. It also doesn’t take into account any potential improvements that this ability could gain at higher levels.
I said stop moving goal post, but now you bring the Ranger into the conversation. Please stop moving the goal post. Stop it. Admit you were wrong it’s okay.
LOL says the person cherry picking the level where Monk is at it's most powerful compared to other classes and still is wrong about saying they are OP, because they aren't even the highest DPR class at that level.
Cherry-picking? These are your arguments. You started this and then moved the goal post when you were proven wrong. You wanted to give them this Nick ability with their fist at level 2. You brought up the Level 4 fighter with PAM. When you found out you were wrong you tried to bring in one more bad argument of the Ranger. But even that’s a bad argument, but I don’t have time to shoot you down again. Unarmed Nick on a monk is bad.
I suggested making Monk AC 10+2(dexterity modifier). If they start with +3 dex modifier that's AC16, and they can get up to AC20 by level 8.
unarmed AC is +dex +wis so that balanced stat builds are not under-encouraged. also because the devs expect most players to land around 14AC without feeling weak. see Edgin Darvis, Doric, and Sofina as quick examples. they seem to acknowledge that a dex focus and more AC can mean a tougher warrior (martial arts adept) but not every warrior is the very toughest (immortal lotus monk).
honestly, if i had a change to make it would be to give more weight to wisdom. maybe something like "AC = your wisdom score" and "you may use your WIS in place of CHA for ability checks" because monks are should be more than standing on a pier doing crane kicks.
14AC?
What game are they playing? Nobody even starts a Monk with 14AC.
Monks can start with a maximum of +3 in Dexterity and Wisdom. They have five ASIs across the course of their levels, and since most games don't go much over level 10 they probably won't see three of them. What can they achieve with two ASIs?
Currently they can get up to 18AC at level 8, either with +4 to dex and wis, or +5 to one and +3 to the other. If they're restricted to one use of Stunning Strike then you don't want to invest in wisdom. You're going to need the "to hit" and "to damage" bonuses you get from dexterity to compensate for not being able to reliably lock down an enemy.
How would you feel about investing in wisdom if they also made the following changes:
Level 2 - Discipline Points = monk level + WIS modifier. Spent Discipline points return on a long rest.
Level 8 - Heightened Metabolism - add “additionally, you regain a number of spent Discipline points up to your wisdom modifier on a short rest”
Would that be sufficient or has Stunning Strike become the only thing people want to spend points on?
Bad, because then we have the problem of plain characters with no ability feat. That's why the need to disassociate unarmed defense from 2 scores.
I have to add that with the current AC calculation maybe one could be happy at start using the optional ability score character creation, the point purchase one, but if rolling dice, that is really the default standard method proposed by rules, is not that easy to have multiple desired high stats to put. Then associating some core feature to 2 high stats is a flaw from its base.
Deflect Attack would have to be higher level, maybe 5th, I think. At level 1, even with calculation MA die plus level, reducing damage, then Temp HP, then Barbarian damage reduction (not sure the exact order of operations for this would be) all stacking makes for a too good a 1-2 level dip. Deflect missiles only comes online at 3 anyway so should just be an upgrade to that later.
Drunken Masters ability is fine. But they could have something, another feature at the same level, to go along with it since it is situational.
I suggested making Monk AC 10+2(dexterity modifier). If they start with +3 dex modifier that's AC16, and they can get up to AC20 by level 8.
unarmed AC is +dex +wis so that balanced stat builds are not under-encouraged. also because the devs expect most players to land around 14AC without feeling weak. see Edgin Darvis, Doric, and Sofina as quick examples. they seem to acknowledge that a dex focus and more AC can mean a tougher warrior (martial arts adept) but not every warrior is the very toughest (immortal lotus monk).
honestly, if i had a change to make it would be to give more weight to wisdom. maybe something like "AC = your wisdom score" and "you may use your WIS in place of CHA for ability checks" because monks are should be more than standing on a pier doing crane kicks.
14AC?
What game are they playing? Nobody even starts a Monk with 14AC.
Monks can start with a maximum of +3 in Dexterity and Wisdom. They have five ASIs across the course of their levels, and since most games don't go much over level 10 they probably won't see three of them. What can they achieve with two ASIs?
Currently they can get up to 18AC at level 8, either with +4 to dex and wis, or +5 to one and +3 to the other. If they're restricted to one use of Stunning Strike then you don't want to invest in wisdom. You're going to need the "to hit" and "to damage" bonuses you get from dexterity to compensate for not being able to reliably lock down an enemy.
How would you feel about investing in wisdom if they also made the following changes:
Level 2 - Discipline Points = monk level + WIS modifier. Spent Discipline points return on a long rest.
Level 8 - Heightened Metabolism - add “additionally, you regain a number of spent Discipline points up to your wisdom modifier on a short rest”
Would that be sufficient or has Stunning Strike become the only thing people want to spend points on?
Bad, because then we have the problem of plain characters with no ability feat. That's why the need to disassociate unarmed defense from 2 scores.
I have to add that with the current AC calculation maybe one could be happy at start using the optional ability score character creation, the point purchase one, but if rolling dice, that is really the default standard method proposed by rules, is not that easy to have multiple desired high stats to put. Then associating some core feature to 2 high stats is a flaw from its base.
Could you explain what you mean by "problem of plain characters with no ability feat"? I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make & would like to understand.
I've not particularly heard any barbarian players making the same complaint about their version of Unarmoured Defence - since that also relies on two ability scores. Or is your issue with the Monk's version that you feel that you should be putting your second highest ability score into CON & this doesn't allow you to do that?
What do you also mean by 2 high stats? How do you define a "high" stat?
Given that, as you've said, the default method of generating the ability scores is rolling, those rules also state that you can use the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8) for your scores. With the origin bonuses, that should mean you can have a 16 in two scores for a +3 modifier in each & a 13 in a third ability for a +1 modifier.
The point buy system would give you at maximum, 15's in three scores with the remaining 3 scores all being 8's. Add the origin bonuses and you have a 17 & 16 for a +3 mod & a 15 for a +2 mod.
From my point of view, these should be the basis figures that everyone is using when discussing changes to features & when calculating the impact those changes have.
It's because of this basis that I suggested the ability to give the monk a bonus action that, until the start of their next turn, puts disadvantage on the first attack each turn that targets them. I'm really curious what people think of that as an idea but haven't seen any response to it yet. It's an alternative, and perhaps more subtle, change rather than the "AC needs to be higher" suggestion that everyone else has put forward whilst having, ultimately, a similar effect.
Constitution is a stat that Barbarians will be favoring anyway, and they only need 14 dexterity if they want to wear medium armor. They also have damage mitigation, which is what keeps them on the field more than their AC does.
Certainly Monks can start with 8/17/15/8/16/8. Then get to 8/18/16/8/16/8 at level 4.
Monks are more like Fighters who don't have much in the way of damage reduction/recovery except for Second Wind, but Monks don't get Second Wind, or the easy AC boosts that Fighters get.
Monks are already overloaded for bonus actions, and they already have Patient Defense that gives their attackers disadvantage for every attack against them, albeit at the cost of a ki point. An ability they can't afford to use isn't going to be much help to them.
It's like offering Clerics yet another spell to use their concentration on. They already have too many, and what they really need are more abilities that don't require concentration. For example the playtest giving concentration to Spiritual Weapon just means that Spiritual Weapon will never be used.
Personally, with the current playtest, I wouldn't be looking to use the Standard Array to create two 16s. I'd want a spread closer to 17 15 13 12 10 8 after including their background. Because literally the only advantage of two 16s is you can have both be 20 and turn one into 22 with their Feat at 19th-level. That maxes out their defense with AC 21, but they have no cool things from other Feats.
At least with the above initial spread, they can reach 20th-level with a spread of 22 16 14 12 10 8. Yeah, they only have AC 19. AC is also a sucker's bet at high levels. What they really have is three feats, each with a +1, which let them do cool stuff they otherwise couldn't. And while that might mean a paltry DC 17 saving throw in Tier 4, magic items and spells can improve your odds.
Monks are already overloaded for bonus actions, and they already have Patient Defense that gives their attackers disadvantage for every attack against them, albeit at the cost of a ki point. An ability they can't afford to use isn't going to be much help to them.
The problem with Patient Defense is that they have to give up 2 attacks to do it. By itself that's not really a problem (it is actually good game balance), what is a problem is that they need those 2 attacks just to achieve mediocre damage output. If a monk using FoB every round (+whatever feat they are eligible for) was dealing equal damage to a fighter or barbarian using a heavy weapon + Fighting Style + the relevant Combat feat then it would be totally fine for them to give up 2 attacks and drop down to generic martial sword+board damage numbers in exchange for Patient Defense. That would be a fair trade and I think we'd see lots of monks mixing it up in combat - and I do see that at low levels.
The fundamental problem with Monk is that at high levels the only offensive option worth spending ki points on is Stunning Strike, because with or without FoB you're doing much less damage than other characters. This is why monk players spam Stunning Strike, because it is the only thing that gives them a "hero moment" at higher levels.
Could you explain what you mean by "problem of plain characters with no ability feat"? I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make & would like to understand.
Sure. The problem is that if a monk wants to have its AC appropriate to the tier, has to invest all the feats on the +2 ability score, instead on those +1 plus some feature, as you need to boost both Dex and Wis, and doing it 1 by 1 is not enough. Making unarmored defense dependent only on 1 score (like Dex + proficiency bonus of monk class level) you can get feats providing +1 Dex plus some feature, while having a decent AC for the tier level. Then investing all the feats for +2 is really boring, specially in this new revision which most of the 4th level feats grants +1 to score plus a feature.
Could you explain what you mean by "problem of plain characters with no ability feat"? I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make & would like to understand.
Sure. The problem is that if a monk wants to have its AC appropriate to the tier, has to invest all the feats on the +2 ability score, instead on those +1 plus some feature, as you need to boost both Dex and Wis, and doing it 1 by 1 is not enough. Making unarmored defense dependent only on 1 score (like Dex + proficiency bonus) you can get feats providing +1 Dex plus some feature, while having a decent AC for the tier level. Then investing all the feats for +2 is really boring, specially in this new revision which most of the 4th level feats grants +1 to score plus a feature.
FYI all those 4th level combat feats require proficiency in Martial Weapons, which the monk does not have so they cannot take them.
Could you explain what you mean by "problem of plain characters with no ability feat"? I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make & would like to understand.
Sure. The problem is that if a monk wants to have its AC appropriate to the tier, has to invest all the feats on the +2 ability score, instead on those +1 plus some feature, as you need to boost both Dex and Wis, and doing it 1 by 1 is not enough. Making unarmored defense dependent only on 1 score (like Dex + proficiency bonus) you can get feats providing +1 Dex plus some feature, while having a decent AC for the tier level. Then investing all the feats for +2 is really boring, specially in this new revision which most of the 4th level feats grants +1 to score plus a feature.
FYI all those 4th level combat feats require proficiency in Martial Weapons, which the monk does not have so they cannot take them.
Yep, I approach that issue changing all those feats requirements adding "or Warrior class". I see no reason any Warrior class could not get fighting feats, it has no sense. Or give the monk one martial weapon proficiency at level 1.
Could you explain what you mean by "problem of plain characters with no ability feat"? I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make & would like to understand.
Sure. The problem is that if a monk wants to have its AC appropriate to the tier, has to invest all the feats on the +2 ability score, instead on those +1 plus some feature, as you need to boost both Dex and Wis, and doing it 1 by 1 is not enough. Making unarmored defense dependent only on 1 score (like Dex + proficiency bonus of monk class level) you can get feats providing +1 Dex plus some feature, while having a decent AC for the tier level. Then investing all the feats for +2 is really boring, specially in this new revision which most of the 4th level feats grants +1 to score plus a feature.
That's not true. A barbarian wants more Constitution─who doesn't─but look at what else they have. With medium armor training, they're wearing that for most of their career. The most they probably want is a breastplate, because they don't want disadvantage on Stealth, and they likely won't have the Dexterity to make Medium Armor Master worth it. A barbarian could realistically get as high as AC 19 or 20 with Primal Champion and a shield or bracers of defense. But a barbarian also wants to be hit, so a high AC is anathema to their design.
And as I've already pointed out, a monk can realistically keep pace without too many +2 investments.
Monk AC is on par with other DEX-based classes, so I don't know what everyone is arguing about with getting to AC21... Rogues and Rangers make due with 12(studded leather)+DEX for most of their adventuring career, why does a monk need AC 21 to be viable?
Why not just make unarmored defense stay dex + wis, but instead of 10, it start with 11 or even 12? thus providing a cap 23 AC with the UA monk version, spending all Feat on +2 ASI or going a little lower with a chance for a different feat?
Monk AC is on par with other DEX-based classes, so I don't know what everyone is arguing about with getting to AC21... Rogues and Rangers make due with 12(studded leather)+DEX for most of their adventuring career, why does a monk need AC 21 to be viable?
Rogues are known to be weak on direct combat, they rely on hide and run. Rangers can use Medium Armor, and use d10 hit die, being an Expertise with spells, instead a Warrior.
Then the monk needs something, here we can read many, like making it also a half-expertise to balance with others, or anything else. If we provide the monk with something to get balanced with others, then is fine that lower AC, have no problem if the monk is the versatile Warrior. But that poor proficiency choices, only 2 skills to get, and when comparing with others we have those getting many more things, is not fair for the class.
We can make a list of game aspects and create a tier like bad, moderate, good, excellent, then for each class classify those aspects and see what is for each of them. I.e. we could get the Paladin: DPR excellent, defense good/excellent, support moderate, and etc. (I am doing it quickly). We could notice that the monk average is poor, usually any class is excellent in something, and good in another one or two things, etc. but with a satisfactory average, in the case of the monk you feel is not that satisfactory, it lacks something.
Then the AC thing is just one related with combat, if the purpose is to improve that aspect. But ideas for balancing with any other are welcome. I like the idea of being more versatile as we already have many other classes that bright in combat.
As for the stat it should be I am for going the warlock route and have the monk pick a fighting style/dojo at level 1 which is associated with a prime stat with 3 options,
That sounds a lot like what I proposed and gave some examples for (with the "mystical attribute" being determined by your discipline's style, choosing between WIS, INT, and CON .. and your unarmed strikes can always be STR, DEX, or (mystical attribute) based).
This was part of the write-up I did around the "going the warlock" route:
1st Level: replace Weapon Mastery and the existing "Martial Arts" feature with:
Monastic Discipline -- You may use Strength or Dexterity with your unarmed strikes, and also with simple weapons (not including weapons with the Two Handed property).You also pick one of the three fundamental disciplines of your Monastic Order:
Mind over Matter: Your discipline is based upon channeling psionic energy into unarmed combat. You use INT as your Mystical Attribute (DC calculations for your special abilities, etc.), Martial Arts attack and damage bonus, and Unarmored Defense bonus.When you gain the Energetic Strikes feature, with each individual attack, you may choose to do Psychic damage instead of Bludgeoning damage with your Unarmed Strikes.
Spirit over Matter: Your discipline is based upon channeling spiritual energy into unarmed combat. You use WIS as your Mystical Attribute (DC calculations for your special abilities, etc.), Martial Arts attack and damage bonus, and Unarmored Defense bonus.When you gain the Energetic Strikes feature, with each individual attack, you may choose to do Radiant damage or Necrotic damage (pick when you gain this feature) instead of Bludgeoning damage with your Unarmed Strikes.
Vitality over Matter: Your discipline is based upon channeling vital energy into unarmed combat. You use CON as your Mystical Attribute (DC calculations for your special abilities, etc.), Martial Arts attack and damage bonus, and Unarmored Defense bonus.When you gain the Energetic Strikes feature, with each individual attack, you may choose to do Necrotic damage or Poison damage (pick when you gain this feature) instead of Bludgeoning damage with your Unarmed Strikes.
Martial Arts
Bonus Unarmed Strike: (same as existing)
Disciplined Attacks: (replaces Dexterous Attacks) You may use Strength, Dexterity, or your Mystical Attribute from Monastic Discipline, for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two Handed property.
Martial Arts Die: (same as existing)
Fighting Style: You are qualified to take the Fighting Style feats, but you do not get one as part of this feature.
Lethal Weapon: Except for Weapon Mastery features, any Features, Abilities, or Spells that you have which work with melee weapons may be used on/with your unarmed strikes.
Unarmored Defense: (replace your Wisdom modifier with the Mystical Attribute from your Monastic Discipline)
Martial Arts Mastery: (replaces "Weapon Mastery" as a Monk Feature) Your Martial Arts Training grants you two Free Picks from those Martial Arts Masteries, provided that you otherwise have all of the requirements for them.You may change any of your Martial Arts Masteries when you gain a Level, provided that you otherwise have all of the requirements for it.You gain one more Martial Arts Mastery at each of the following levels:2nd Level, 6th Level, 11th Level, and 17th Level.
2nd Level:
Martial Discipline
Deflect Attacks As with the non-Discipline Point part (first paragraph) of the Monk Feature "Deflect Missiles", but can be used against melee attacks, ranged attacks, and unarmed strikes.You may not use this ability if you are wearing armor or wielding a shield.
3rd Level:
Subclass
Disciplined Attack When you spend 1 or more Discipline Points during your turn, you may use your “Bonus Unarmed Strike” even if you did not use the Attack action.
Redirect Attacks (replaces Deflect Missiles) As with the Discipline Point part (second paragraph) of the Monk Feature "Deflect Missiles", but can be used against melee attacks, ranged attacks, and unarmed strikes.
4th Level:
ASI
Slow Fall
5th Level:
Extra Attack
Stunning Strike
6th Level:
Subclass Feature
Energetic Strikes (Replaces Empowered Strikes) When your unarmed strikes deal damage to a creature, they are magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage.Further you may choose to have each strike deal its normal damage type(s), Force damage, or the type of damage indicated by your Monastic Discipline.
Fighting Style: You are qualified to take the Fighting Style feats, but you do not get one as part of this feature.
Just on this point - why not make Martial Arts into a Fighting Style that is exclusive to the Monk? The same way that the Warlock, Sorcerer and Wizard now have unique spells that are exclusive to their class?
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It only costs those things in the situation where it's useful. If an improvement is needed, it should be one that makes it more frequently relevant.
Again, I suggested this a couple of pages ago & on the last page, but why not change the Bonus Unarmed Strike part of Martial Arts to the following:
Flexable Style: When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or simple weapon on your turn, as a bonus action you can either make one Unarmed strike or take a Defensive Stance. When you take a Defensive Stance, until the start of your next turn, the first melee attack that targets you each turn is made with disadvantage.
Since each of the warrior classes have their own key characteristics for staying in combat (Barbarian: high hp & damage resistance but low AC, Fighter: high AC, middling hp, flexible build options) why not make simply being very hard to hit in melee via disadvantage on enemy attacks one of the Monk’s key characteristics? You can improve this feature at higher levels by allowing the monk to do both options at the same time or by keeping the choice but improve both options.
This would give monks a defensive option to use in combat from lvl 1, whilst also keeping their option to do additional damage open. It also wouldn’t take much away from the Martial Disciplines as they give stronger effects for the cost of a discipline point. It also would mean that you're not trying to get higher and higher AC scores as your only defence.
Since posting this last time, I’ve also asked @Agilemind, who has kindly run the numbers for me, and this change makes the basic monk slightly more survivable in combat than a fighter with chain mail & shield between levels 1-4. This does drop off slightly when extra attack comes in at level 5 & assumes that the fighter would switch to plate armour, but is still a significant improvement over the base class. It also doesn’t take into account any potential improvements that this ability could gain at higher levels.
Cherry-picking? These are your arguments. You started this and then moved the goal post when you were proven wrong. You wanted to give them this Nick ability with their fist at level 2. You brought up the Level 4 fighter with PAM. When you found out you were wrong you tried to bring in one more bad argument of the Ranger. But even that’s a bad argument, but I don’t have time to shoot you down again. Unarmed Nick on a monk is bad.
Bad, because then we have the problem of plain characters with no ability feat. That's why the need to disassociate unarmed defense from 2 scores.
I have to add that with the current AC calculation maybe one could be happy at start using the optional ability score character creation, the point purchase one, but if rolling dice, that is really the default standard method proposed by rules, is not that easy to have multiple desired high stats to put. Then associating some core feature to 2 high stats is a flaw from its base.
Deflect Attack would have to be higher level, maybe 5th, I think. At level 1, even with calculation MA die plus level, reducing damage, then Temp HP, then Barbarian damage reduction (not sure the exact order of operations for this would be) all stacking makes for a too good a 1-2 level dip. Deflect missiles only comes online at 3 anyway so should just be an upgrade to that later.
Drunken Masters ability is fine. But they could have something, another feature at the same level, to go along with it since it is situational.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Could you explain what you mean by "problem of plain characters with no ability feat"? I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make & would like to understand.
I've not particularly heard any barbarian players making the same complaint about their version of Unarmoured Defence - since that also relies on two ability scores. Or is your issue with the Monk's version that you feel that you should be putting your second highest ability score into CON & this doesn't allow you to do that?
What do you also mean by 2 high stats? How do you define a "high" stat?
Given that, as you've said, the default method of generating the ability scores is rolling, those rules also state that you can use the standard array (15,14,13,12,10,8) for your scores. With the origin bonuses, that should mean you can have a 16 in two scores for a +3 modifier in each & a 13 in a third ability for a +1 modifier.
The point buy system would give you at maximum, 15's in three scores with the remaining 3 scores all being 8's. Add the origin bonuses and you have a 17 & 16 for a +3 mod & a 15 for a +2 mod.
From my point of view, these should be the basis figures that everyone is using when discussing changes to features & when calculating the impact those changes have.
It's because of this basis that I suggested the ability to give the monk a bonus action that, until the start of their next turn, puts disadvantage on the first attack each turn that targets them. I'm really curious what people think of that as an idea but haven't seen any response to it yet. It's an alternative, and perhaps more subtle, change rather than the "AC needs to be higher" suggestion that everyone else has put forward whilst having, ultimately, a similar effect.
Constitution is a stat that Barbarians will be favoring anyway, and they only need 14 dexterity if they want to wear medium armor. They also have damage mitigation, which is what keeps them on the field more than their AC does.
Certainly Monks can start with 8/17/15/8/16/8. Then get to 8/18/16/8/16/8 at level 4.
Monks are more like Fighters who don't have much in the way of damage reduction/recovery except for Second Wind, but Monks don't get Second Wind, or the easy AC boosts that Fighters get.
Monks are already overloaded for bonus actions, and they already have Patient Defense that gives their attackers disadvantage for every attack against them, albeit at the cost of a ki point. An ability they can't afford to use isn't going to be much help to them.
It's like offering Clerics yet another spell to use their concentration on. They already have too many, and what they really need are more abilities that don't require concentration. For example the playtest giving concentration to Spiritual Weapon just means that Spiritual Weapon will never be used.
Personally, with the current playtest, I wouldn't be looking to use the Standard Array to create two 16s. I'd want a spread closer to 17 15 13 12 10 8 after including their background. Because literally the only advantage of two 16s is you can have both be 20 and turn one into 22 with their Feat at 19th-level. That maxes out their defense with AC 21, but they have no cool things from other Feats.
At least with the above initial spread, they can reach 20th-level with a spread of 22 16 14 12 10 8. Yeah, they only have AC 19. AC is also a sucker's bet at high levels. What they really have is three feats, each with a +1, which let them do cool stuff they otherwise couldn't. And while that might mean a paltry DC 17 saving throw in Tier 4, magic items and spells can improve your odds.
The problem with Patient Defense is that they have to give up 2 attacks to do it. By itself that's not really a problem (it is actually good game balance), what is a problem is that they need those 2 attacks just to achieve mediocre damage output. If a monk using FoB every round (+whatever feat they are eligible for) was dealing equal damage to a fighter or barbarian using a heavy weapon + Fighting Style + the relevant Combat feat then it would be totally fine for them to give up 2 attacks and drop down to generic martial sword+board damage numbers in exchange for Patient Defense. That would be a fair trade and I think we'd see lots of monks mixing it up in combat - and I do see that at low levels.
The fundamental problem with Monk is that at high levels the only offensive option worth spending ki points on is Stunning Strike, because with or without FoB you're doing much less damage than other characters. This is why monk players spam Stunning Strike, because it is the only thing that gives them a "hero moment" at higher levels.
Sure. The problem is that if a monk wants to have its AC appropriate to the tier, has to invest all the feats on the +2 ability score, instead on those +1 plus some feature, as you need to boost both Dex and Wis, and doing it 1 by 1 is not enough. Making unarmored defense dependent only on 1 score (like Dex + proficiency bonus of monk class level) you can get feats providing +1 Dex plus some feature, while having a decent AC for the tier level. Then investing all the feats for +2 is really boring, specially in this new revision which most of the 4th level feats grants +1 to score plus a feature.
FYI all those 4th level combat feats require proficiency in Martial Weapons, which the monk does not have so they cannot take them.
Yep, I approach that issue changing all those feats requirements adding "or Warrior class". I see no reason any Warrior class could not get fighting feats, it has no sense. Or give the monk one martial weapon proficiency at level 1.
That's not true. A barbarian wants more Constitution─who doesn't─but look at what else they have. With medium armor training, they're wearing that for most of their career. The most they probably want is a breastplate, because they don't want disadvantage on Stealth, and they likely won't have the Dexterity to make Medium Armor Master worth it. A barbarian could realistically get as high as AC 19 or 20 with Primal Champion and a shield or bracers of defense. But a barbarian also wants to be hit, so a high AC is anathema to their design.
And as I've already pointed out, a monk can realistically keep pace without too many +2 investments.
Monk AC is on par with other DEX-based classes, so I don't know what everyone is arguing about with getting to AC21... Rogues and Rangers make due with 12(studded leather)+DEX for most of their adventuring career, why does a monk need AC 21 to be viable?
Why not just make unarmored defense stay dex + wis, but instead of 10, it start with 11 or even 12? thus providing a cap 23 AC with the UA monk version, spending all Feat on +2 ASI or going a little lower with a chance for a different feat?
Rogues are known to be weak on direct combat, they rely on hide and run. Rangers can use Medium Armor, and use d10 hit die, being an Expertise with spells, instead a Warrior.
Then the monk needs something, here we can read many, like making it also a half-expertise to balance with others, or anything else. If we provide the monk with something to get balanced with others, then is fine that lower AC, have no problem if the monk is the versatile Warrior. But that poor proficiency choices, only 2 skills to get, and when comparing with others we have those getting many more things, is not fair for the class.
We can make a list of game aspects and create a tier like bad, moderate, good, excellent, then for each class classify those aspects and see what is for each of them. I.e. we could get the Paladin: DPR excellent, defense good/excellent, support moderate, and etc. (I am doing it quickly). We could notice that the monk average is poor, usually any class is excellent in something, and good in another one or two things, etc. but with a satisfactory average, in the case of the monk you feel is not that satisfactory, it lacks something.
Then the AC thing is just one related with combat, if the purpose is to improve that aspect. But ideas for balancing with any other are welcome. I like the idea of being more versatile as we already have many other classes that bright in combat.
That sounds a lot like what I proposed and gave some examples for (with the "mystical attribute" being determined by your discipline's style, choosing between WIS, INT, and CON .. and your unarmed strikes can always be STR, DEX, or (mystical attribute) based).
This was part of the write-up I did around the "going the warlock" route:
Your Martial Arts Training grants you two Free Picks from those Martial Arts Masteries, provided that you otherwise have all of the requirements for them. You may change any of your Martial Arts Masteries when you gain a Level, provided that you otherwise have all of the requirements for it. You gain one more Martial Arts Mastery at each of the following levels: 2nd Level, 6th Level, 11th Level, and 17th Level.
As with the non-Discipline Point part (first paragraph) of the Monk Feature "Deflect Missiles", but can be used against melee attacks, ranged attacks, and unarmed strikes. You may not use this ability if you are wearing armor or wielding a shield.
When you spend 1 or more Discipline Points during your turn, you may use your “Bonus Unarmed Strike” even if you did not use the Attack action.
As with the Discipline Point part (second paragraph) of the Monk Feature "Deflect Missiles", but can be used against melee attacks, ranged attacks, and unarmed strikes.
When your unarmed strikes deal damage to a creature, they are magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing damage. Further you may choose to have each strike deal its normal damage type(s), Force damage, or the type of damage indicated by your Monastic Discipline.
A barbarian does not want to be hit. A barbarian wants to be attacked; the optimal result is being attacked and missed.
Just on this point - why not make Martial Arts into a Fighting Style that is exclusive to the Monk? The same way that the Warlock, Sorcerer and Wizard now have unique spells that are exclusive to their class?