5 rounds of combat between SRs isn't very realistic for level 11, which is why I assumed 10 rounds of combat between SRs at level 11. One D&D monk is actually more dependent on unarmed strikes since their weapon damage dice don't scale with their martial arts die - so instead of parity at level 11, unarmed strikes are higher damage than weapons at level 11. Sure with the level 7 feature you could probably double-dip on DPs for 1 combat per day and recoup the DPs with the one-minute SR. However, it would have to be for one of the easier combats of the day b/c if it was a deadly combat the whole party will want a SR since multiple characters should be close to 0 hp, whereas if the party is healthy enough to continue with just a few healing spells it was probably just a minor skirmish and you may not have bothered to spend all your DPs.
But even if we assume Stunning Strike on each round, it's not going to add 10 DPR to catch up to Fighter.
And PS: I didn't optimize the Fighters, if I had I would have used Greatsword + GWM rather than Greataxe, and I would have given them two combat feats at level 11 rather than 1. This was simply the most obvious choices a martial player could make for their combat style of choice.
5 rounds of combat between SRs isn't very realistic for level 11, which is why I assumed 10 rounds of combat between SRs at level 11. One D&D monk is actually more dependent on unarmed strikes since their weapon damage dice don't scale with their martial arts die - so instead of parity at level 11, unarmed strikes are higher damage than weapons at level 11. Sure with the level 7 feature you could probably double-dip on DPs for 1 combat per day and recoup the DPs with the one-minute SR. However, it would have to be for one of the easier combats of the day b/c if it was a deadly combat the whole party will want a SR since multiple characters should be close to 0 hp, whereas if the party is healthy enough to continue with just a few healing spells it was probably just a minor skirmish and you may not have bothered to spend all your DPs.
But even if we assume Stunning Strike on each round, it's not going to add 10 DPR to catch up to Fighter.
And PS: I didn't optimize the Fighters, if I had I would have used Greatsword + GWM rather than Greataxe, and I would have given them two combat feats at level 11 rather than 1. This was simply the most obvious choices a martial player could make for their combat style of choice.
Even with the monk damage scaling, even at a d12 it NEVER exceeds dagger+ hand axe on one of its attacks because of nick and vex, old monk didn't have this issue because weapon properties didn't really matter its unarmed attacks and its weapon attacks eventually became equal. Other than that we agree that the Monk has not much to offer after level 7. But neither does the barbarian. Fighter is the only warrior that gets better and better past getting that asi at 8.
(essentially average of 6.5+5 or 11.5 is less than 2.5+3.5+5 or 11 + potentially getting advantage on your next attack)
It have just occurred to me that one implication if replacing "magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance" to force damage is that the monk can no longer benefit from the crusher feat (or slasher/piercer, for some species) with their unarmed strike. Or rather, since you can choose if your unarmed strikes deals force damage or not, you can still benefit from either the feat or overcoming resistance, but not both.
Even with the monk damage scaling, even at a d12 it NEVER exceeds dagger+ hand axe on one of its attacks because of nick and vex. Other than that we agree that the Monk has not much to offer after level 7. But neither does the barbarian. Fighter is the only warrior that gets better and better past getting that asi at 8.
Yeah, the barbarian higher level abilities are quite underwhelming. If we look at dpr increase for all weapon-based classes from level 8-20, assuming 70% hit chance and ignoring magic:
Barbarian: rage goes from +2 to +4. For a reckless PAM barbarian, that's 5.49 dpr. Brutal critical is another 5.85 dpr, total 11.34 dpr. The berserker gains significantly more, since the frenzy dice go from 2 to 4, typically adding a bit over 7 dpr.
Fighter: attacks go from 2 to 4; for a PAM fighter (no magic) that's 14.7 dpr. Action surge goes from 1 to 2, which adds 6 attacks (43.1 damage) per SR; assuming 5 rounds combat/SR, that's an extra 8.62 dpr for a total of 23.32 dpr. Magic weapons can increase this substantially -- multiply any magic weapon damage bonus by 2.14. The Champion's Superior Critical feature is worth around 1.4 dpr.
Monk: assuming 3 unarmed attacks per round (the last being some sort of two weapon combo), gains 2.1 dpr. The elements monk gains another roughly 6 dpr from empowered strikes.
Paladin: radiant strikes is worth 6.3 dpr. Total smite dice per day go from 17 to 56; assuming 15 rounds of combat per day, that's +11.7 dpr, total 18 dpr. Also, all of the level 20 subclass abilities are actually quite strong.
Ranger: increase your hunter's mark from 1d6 to 3d6. For a dual weapon wielder, that's 6.9 dpr. Foe slayer adds another 2.1*wisdom modifier; probably at least 4.2 dpr but there's so many other investments you want that I wouldn't bet on wisdom above 16. For subclasses, the beastmaster gains quite a bit (around 20 dpr), other subclasses do not.
Rogue: gains 6d6 sneak attack (for a dual wielder, 19.11 dpr). Gains stroke of luck, which on a round when you would have missed and hit is an extra 11d6+5 (43) damage, on a round where you would have missed twice is 22d6+5 (82). I'll call it a 70% chance that it's the former, for a net of 55 damage, and it's once per SR, so at the same 5 rounds that's +11 dpr for a total of 30.11 dpr. All subclasses other than arcane trickster also add a moderate amount of dpr.
I would call the power increase for the fighter, paladin, beastmaster ranger, and rogue is about right. Barbarian, monk, and non-beastmaster ranger needs boosting.
5 rounds of combat between SRs isn't very realistic for level 11, which is why I assumed 10 rounds of combat between SRs at level 11. One D&D monk is actually more dependent on unarmed strikes since their weapon damage dice don't scale with their martial arts die - so instead of parity at level 11, unarmed strikes are higher damage than weapons at level 11. Sure with the level 7 feature you could probably double-dip on DPs for 1 combat per day and recoup the DPs with the one-minute SR. However, it would have to be for one of the easier combats of the day b/c if it was a deadly combat the whole party will want a SR since multiple characters should be close to 0 hp, whereas if the party is healthy enough to continue with just a few healing spells it was probably just a minor skirmish and you may not have bothered to spend all your DPs.
But even if we assume Stunning Strike on each round, it's not going to add 10 DPR to catch up to Fighter.
And PS: I didn't optimize the Fighters, if I had I would have used Greatsword + GWM rather than Greataxe, and I would have given them two combat feats at level 11 rather than 1. This was simply the most obvious choices a martial player could make for their combat style of choice.
Even with the monk damage scaling, even at a d12 it NEVER exceeds dagger+ hand axe on one of its attacks because of nick and vex, old monk didn't have this issue because weapon properties didn't really matter its unarmed attacks and its weapon attacks eventually became equal. Other than that we agree that the Monk has not much to offer after level 7. But neither does the barbarian. Fighter is the only warrior that gets better and better past getting that asi at 8.
(essentially average of 6.5+5 or 11.5 is less than 2.5+3.5+5 or 11 + potentially getting advantage on your next attack)
That's not how the math works out. Let's make some actual assumptions and crunch the numbers.
We have both an 11th-level monk and CR 11 foe; which means a proficiency bonus of +4, a target AC 17, and a Martial Arts die of d10.
With only two ASi/Feats and a standard array, an optimized monk conservatively has an 18 Dexterity (because they don't want to neglect Wisdom).
With a +8 attack modifier, and no magic weapons, they need a 9 or better on the d20.
You can be right for the wrong reasons. What's confusing me is why you're still trying to separate these into mutually exclusive options. With the way Extra Attack works, you can perform four attacks with no Discipline Point expenditure in the following order: handaxe, dagger, handaxe, unarmed strike. It's unofficial, but there is a tweet saying the trigger for TWF is the first attack itself, and not the completed action. And with advantage on two attacks, their overall output would look closer to the following...
Now, it should go without saying I haven't done everyone else's numbers. That said, an effective DPR floor of 20.015 doesn't sound terrible in a vacuum. Especially for a class which can't put to use any of the big DPR "boosters" like GWM and PAM. The monk, as a class, is built differently. And even though I've advocated for increasing its numbers, focusing on sheer damage output is a mistake.
5 rounds of combat between SRs isn't very realistic for level 11, which is why I assumed 10 rounds of combat between SRs at level 11. One D&D monk is actually more dependent on unarmed strikes since their weapon damage dice don't scale with their martial arts die - so instead of parity at level 11, unarmed strikes are higher damage than weapons at level 11. Sure with the level 7 feature you could probably double-dip on DPs for 1 combat per day and recoup the DPs with the one-minute SR. However, it would have to be for one of the easier combats of the day b/c if it was a deadly combat the whole party will want a SR since multiple characters should be close to 0 hp, whereas if the party is healthy enough to continue with just a few healing spells it was probably just a minor skirmish and you may not have bothered to spend all your DPs.
But even if we assume Stunning Strike on each round, it's not going to add 10 DPR to catch up to Fighter.
And PS: I didn't optimize the Fighters, if I had I would have used Greatsword + GWM rather than Greataxe, and I would have given them two combat feats at level 11 rather than 1. This was simply the most obvious choices a martial player could make for their combat style of choice.
Even with the monk damage scaling, even at a d12 it NEVER exceeds dagger+ hand axe on one of its attacks because of nick and vex, old monk didn't have this issue because weapon properties didn't really matter its unarmed attacks and its weapon attacks eventually became equal. Other than that we agree that the Monk has not much to offer after level 7. But neither does the barbarian. Fighter is the only warrior that gets better and better past getting that asi at 8.
(essentially average of 6.5+5 or 11.5 is less than 2.5+3.5+5 or 11 + potentially getting advantage on your next attack)
That's not how the math works out. Let's make some actual assumptions and crunch the numbers.
We have both an 11th-level monk and CR 11 foe; which means a proficiency bonus of +4, a target AC 17, and a Martial Arts die of d10.
With only two ASi/Feats and a standard array, an optimized monk conservatively has an 18 Dexterity (because they don't want to neglect Wisdom).
With a +8 attack modifier, and no magic weapons, they need a 9 or better on the d20.
You can be right for the wrong reasons. What's confusing me is why you're still trying to separate these into mutually exclusive options. With the way Extra Attack works, you can perform four attacks with no Discipline Point expenditure in the following order: handaxe, dagger, handaxe, unarmed strike. It's unofficial, but there is a tweet saying the trigger for TWF is the first attack itself, and not the completed action. And with advantage on two attacks, their overall output would look closer to the following...
Now, it should go without saying I haven't done everyone else's numbers. That said, an effective DPR floor of 20.015 doesn't sound terrible in a vacuum. Especially for a class which can't put to use any of the big DPR "boosters" like GWM and PAM. The monk, as a class, is built differently. And even though I've advocated for increasing its numbers, focusing on sheer damage output is a mistake.
You should be making the dagger attack first, the hand axe second and then the advantage possibility from vex should be applied to the unarmed strike rather than the dagger. The attack order should be dagger, nick trigger axe possible vex trigger, extra attack unarmed strike, and either bonus action unarmed strike or bonus action flurry for 2 unarmed strikes. More attacks with the dagger or hand axe are detrimental.
Edit: remember vex is triggered on Hand-axe HIT not on Hand-axe ATTACK. Scroll higher into my older numbers and you will see the accuracy numbers actually there and not the simplified thing you replied to.
So? A Fighter can do the same by picking up PAM at level 4 and using a Halberd. Only they would be dealing 1d10+4 on a hit for two of those attacks and 1d4+4 for the third, whereas the monk would deal 1d6+4 on each of the three attacks on a hit. Why should Monks be inferior to Fighter?
You just said level 4, taking a feat and a specific weapon build the fighter is superior, but you want the monk with no feat, no specific build to be far superior with 3 attacks at level 2. Also how did the fighter get the +4 since he had to take PAM at level 4 where did he get the ASI. Shouldn’t he be at +3 still. The monk is at +4, has 3 attacks and can flurry of blows 3 times for an additional attack. Your fighter could action surge for one additional attack. So why should the monk be so much superior at lower levels?
What are you talking about? taking 1 feat and using a particular type of weapon (that can be trivially bought with starting background gold) isn't a "build" it's taking 1 feat. The vast majority of tables play with feats and in One D&D feats aren't even an optional rule anymore they are basic rules and choosing not to use feats is optional. And the Fighter would also get extra reaction attacks from PAM, making them not equal to the monk but superior. I want a Monk to be able to spend a DP (finite resource) to be only slightly worse than a Fighter that doesn't have to spend any resources at all. Even with my suggestions the Monk would be inferior to a Fighter.
So you are going to ignore the fact that taking a feat means not increasing your full ASI. You are going to ignore that choosing a pole arm means not choosing a shield. Your Nick monk spends 1 dp which it gets back on a short rest to have 3 attacks per turn at level 2. A fighter can’t even have a PAM at that level and the best it can do is dual wield for tow attacks and action surge once per short rest for 3 attacks, but if it does this at 2nd level it makes the transition to PAM a little more difficult. Most DMs let you change your fighting styles when you level and the rules favor this as well, so it may be a minor inconvenience. At 4th they can take PAM thus not gaining ASI, switch from two weapon fighting style to something more favorable, thus building, also it not an extra reaction it’s an additional reaction trigger. With your suggestion at 4th level the monk has 3 turns per short rest were it could take 4 attacks and can take 3 attacks per turn every turn. The fighter can take 3 attacks per turn every turn, and 4 attacks per turn once per short rest with action surge. The only time the monk is worse is if you have a tricky DM that runs combats without giving you a short rest but makes sure 10 minutes have passed since your last battle.
Fighters are less MAD. A fighter can start with a 17 in their strength and the feat takes them to 18. Unless monk wants bad armor class and bad stunning strike it needs a 16 in both dex and wis. Fighter also gets another feat at 6 and another at 8 meaning they take a feat at 4,6 and 8 and still have the same to hit as the monk who just starts 16 and 16 and takes nothing but ASI.
Fighter can be 17 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12,10,8 distrbuted as they wish and be good to go.
Monk needs 16 dex, 16 wis and wants 14 con still which leaves with with 10,10,8 with point buy.
Then fighter gets more "ASI" so they can afford feats.
Also it would be 5 attacks once per short rest for fighter not 4. Scales more at higher levels.
When arguing one class vs another it really helps to understand both classes.
Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking about low levels. The monk doesn’t get stunning strike until 5th and this second ASI you now want to bring up comes online at 6th. Just admit you were wrong and that a monk with 3 attacks at level 2 is too strong. It is also still stronger than your very specific PAM fighter at level 4 as well. Especially since at level 4 the monk could have 18 dex 16 Wis. If you read my post you would see I asked Why is the your monk so superior to the fighter at low level? Stop trying to move the goal post to make this an argument I was never having.
If you're going by OneD&D, then by the time the Fighter and Monk get their Extra Attack, the Monk is at a d8 Martial Arts die. So the actual comparison would be 3d8 vs. 2d10 + 1d4. Without Polearm Master, the Monk outdamages a polearm-wielding Fighter. (This line of complaint also ignores whatever benefits the Monk gains from their chosen feat.)
And counting Discipline points on Flurry of Blows vs. Action Surge at Level 5, the Monk's resource gets them 5d8 extra damage vs. 2d10 extra damage—the Monk's five Discipline points are worth double the Fighter's one use of Action Surge.
The Fighting Style improves the average for the Fighter.
I insist that the monk only needs:
- Fighting Style: to define its combat style, i.e. if uses thrown weapons or dual wielder. And relax requirements, i.e. defensive granting +1AC no matter the condition.
- Unarmored defense: based on proficiency, if we take a look at previous editions:
IMO is time to recover that. It even added the Wis modifier, but probably it would be too much for the 5E maths. This allows to get feats instead full ASI +2.
- Better work on Unarmed Strike: allow to use Dex for monk DC, or a rework based on hit instead DC, and use DC later to escape (allowing to use Dex for the monk DC).
- Relax feat requirements or grant a martial weapon to monk: all feats requiring a martial weapon should add the "or Warrior class" if not granting at least one to the monk.
- Add a few extra Discipline points for lower levels. At high level they will not matter much.
Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking about low levels. The monk doesn’t get stunning strike until 5th and this second ASI you now want to bring up comes online at 6th. Just admit you were wrong and that a monk with 3 attacks at level 2 is too strong. It is also still stronger than your very specific PAM fighter at level 4 as well. Especially since at level 4 the monk could have 18 dex 16 Wis. If you read my post you would see I asked Why is the your monk so superior to the fighter at low level? Stop trying to move the goal post to make this an argument I was never having.
At level 4 a Fighter who take a combat feat also has 18 to their primary stat because all combat feats are now half feats granting a +1 to STR in OneD&D. So a Fighter that starts with a 15 in STR +2 from racial ability scores + 1 from a combat feat = 18 STR at level 4 , exactly the same as a Monk spending that ASI for a +2 DEX.
Even at level 2 monk with 3 attacks 2x per SR is not the strongest melee character, Ranger is the most powerful at level 2, and Fighter is still beating Monk DPR:
5 rounds of combat between SRs isn't very realistic for level 11, which is why I assumed 10 rounds of combat between SRs at level 11. One D&D monk is actually more dependent on unarmed strikes since their weapon damage dice don't scale with their martial arts die - so instead of parity at level 11, unarmed strikes are higher damage than weapons at level 11. Sure with the level 7 feature you could probably double-dip on DPs for 1 combat per day and recoup the DPs with the one-minute SR. However, it would have to be for one of the easier combats of the day b/c if it was a deadly combat the whole party will want a SR since multiple characters should be close to 0 hp, whereas if the party is healthy enough to continue with just a few healing spells it was probably just a minor skirmish and you may not have bothered to spend all your DPs.
But even if we assume Stunning Strike on each round, it's not going to add 10 DPR to catch up to Fighter.
And PS: I didn't optimize the Fighters, if I had I would have used Greatsword + GWM rather than Greataxe, and I would have given them two combat feats at level 11 rather than 1. This was simply the most obvious choices a martial player could make for their combat style of choice.
Even with the monk damage scaling, even at a d12 it NEVER exceeds dagger+ hand axe on one of its attacks because of nick and vex, old monk didn't have this issue because weapon properties didn't really matter its unarmed attacks and its weapon attacks eventually became equal. Other than that we agree that the Monk has not much to offer after level 7. But neither does the barbarian. Fighter is the only warrior that gets better and better past getting that asi at 8.
(essentially average of 6.5+5 or 11.5 is less than 2.5+3.5+5 or 11 + potentially getting advantage on your next attack)
That's not how the math works out. Let's make some actual assumptions and crunch the numbers.
We have both an 11th-level monk and CR 11 foe; which means a proficiency bonus of +4, a target AC 17, and a Martial Arts die of d10.
With only two ASi/Feats and a standard array, an optimized monk conservatively has an 18 Dexterity (because they don't want to neglect Wisdom).
With a +8 attack modifier, and no magic weapons, they need a 9 or better on the d20.
You can be right for the wrong reasons. What's confusing me is why you're still trying to separate these into mutually exclusive options. With the way Extra Attack works, you can perform four attacks with no Discipline Point expenditure in the following order: handaxe, dagger, handaxe, unarmed strike. It's unofficial, but there is a tweet saying the trigger for TWF is the first attack itself, and not the completed action. And with advantage on two attacks, their overall output would look closer to the following...
Now, it should go without saying I haven't done everyone else's numbers. That said, an effective DPR floor of 20.015 doesn't sound terrible in a vacuum. Especially for a class which can't put to use any of the big DPR "boosters" like GWM and PAM. The monk, as a class, is built differently. And even though I've advocated for increasing its numbers, focusing on sheer damage output is a mistake.
You should be making the dagger attack first, the hand axe second and then the advantage possibility from vex should be applied to the unarmed strike rather than the dagger. The attack order should be dagger, nick trigger axe possible vex trigger, extra attack unarmed strike, and either bonus action unarmed strike or bonus action flurry for 2 unarmed strikes. More attacks with the dagger or hand axe are detrimental.
Edit: remember vex is triggered on Hand-axe HIT not on Hand-axe ATTACK. Scroll higher into my older numbers and you will see the accuracy numbers actually there and not the simplified thing you replied to.
It's cute you think that's simplified. If you think you have better numbers, then present them or link them. I'm not scrolling back 25 pages to find your math.
And you're wrong about the attack order. Two-Weapon Fighting stipulates two different light melee weapons must be used. But it's the Nick mastery which lets you move that additional attack from the bonus action to the action. If the dagger is used to trigger TWF, then the first handaxe attack is made (a) without the ability modifier to damage and (b) with the monk's bonus action. The monk is forced to choose between a second handaxe attack or using their unarmed strike.
If you delay, in order to get a third attack, then the attack order becomes dagger/handaxe/dagger. They keep their unarmed strike, but your order is still wrong.
We have all traveled down a deep dark rabbit hole. Though I realize some are very invested in this particular... thing... Is it worth continuing its pursuit?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
We have all traveled down a deep dark rabbit hole. Though I realize some are very invested in this particular... thing... Is it worth continuing its pursuit?
it just goes to show the stress on low level adventurers: taking on multiple quests just to earn subpar ale and a leaky roof for the night. you hear kings grumping that "no one wants to quest anymore," but really the hussle for dpr remains a rat race. don't forget to tip your melee warriors!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Please sir, may I havez rpeez please? Only a tuppence a day.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking about low levels. The monk doesn’t get stunning strike until 5th and this second ASI you now want to bring up comes online at 6th. Just admit you were wrong and that a monk with 3 attacks at level 2 is too strong. It is also still stronger than your very specific PAM fighter at level 4 as well. Especially since at level 4 the monk could have 18 dex 16 Wis. If you read my post you would see I asked Why is the your monk so superior to the fighter at low level? Stop trying to move the goal post to make this an argument I was never having.
At level 4 a Fighter who take a combat feat also has 18 to their primary stat because all combat feats are now half feats granting a +1 to STR in OneD&D. So a Fighter that starts with a 15 in STR +2 from racial ability scores + 1 from a combat feat = 18 STR at level 4 , exactly the same as a Monk spending that ASI for a +2 DEX.
Even at level 2 monk with 3 attacks 2x per SR is not the strongest melee character, Ranger is the most powerful at level 2, and Fighter is still beating Monk DPR:
I said stop moving goal post, but now you bring the Ranger into the conversation. Please stop moving the goal post. Stop it. Admit you were wrong it’s okay.
A level 11 Fighter that has taken PAM, GWM, and Sentinel, to get to Str 20. And yes, a melee Fighter will use specific feats to maximize their combat ability. With full plate armor and the defensive fighting style they'll have a minimum of 19AC, more with magical armor.
3(d10+5)+(d4+5)+4, for 28 to 58 damage a turn. If they use a glaive with the graze property that damage will never drop below 20 even if they miss with everything.
Monk burning ki is rolling 4(d10+5) for between 24 and 60 damage, with the risk of doing no damage if they miss with everything. They are still one level off getting their AC to 19.
As I've said before, ki allows the Monk to keep up with fighters in melee. However if they use their ki/bonus action for anything other than fighting their damage is cut in half.
But on the plus side it's a lot harder to run out of ki at level 11.
And for that an unarmored defense based partially on monk level instead both Dex and Wis does the trick. Now the Monk can get also feats while increasing its Dex.
Aside from that, I noticed something that does not fit very well, and its that it is really bad in some things it should be good, like i.e. climbing, as using Str modifier makes the monk much worse than Str based, while the monk has that awesome acrobatics, not much sure about its use in many situation, not getting its real mobility until level 9. An option could be that Martial Arts or Unarmored Movement granting to use Dex modifier for some athletics, like climbing, swimming, those involving movement, but not those involving "weight", like pushing, forcing, etc.
I suggested making Monk AC 10+2(dexterity modifier). If they start with +3 dex modifier that's AC16, and they can get up to AC20 by level 8.
unarmed AC is +dex +wis so that balanced stat builds are not under-encouraged. also because the devs expect most players to land around 14AC without feeling weak. see Edgin Darvis, Doric, and Sofina as quick examples. they seem to acknowledge that a dex focus and more AC can mean a tougher warrior (martial arts adept) but not every warrior is the very toughest (immortal lotus monk).
honestly, if i had a change to make it would be to give more weight to wisdom. maybe something like "AC = your wisdom score" and "you may use your WIS in place of CHA for ability checks" because monks are should be more than standing on a pier doing crane kicks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I suggested making Monk AC 10+2(dexterity modifier). If they start with +3 dex modifier that's AC16, and they can get up to AC20 by level 8.
unarmed AC is +dex +wis so that balanced stat builds are not under-encouraged. also because the devs expect most players to land around 14AC without feeling weak. see Edgin Darvis, Doric, and Sofina as quick examples. they seem to acknowledge that a dex focus and more AC can mean a tougher warrior (martial arts adept) but not every warrior is the very toughest (immortal lotus monk).
honestly, if i had a change to make it would be to give more weight to wisdom. maybe something like "AC = your wisdom score" and "you may use your WIS in place of CHA for ability checks" because monks are should be more than standing on a pier doing crane kicks.
I suggested this a couple of pages ago but why not change the Bonus Unarmed Strike part of Martial Arts to the following:
Flexable Style: When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or simple weapon on your turn, as a bonus action you can either make one Unarmed strike or take a Defensive Stance. When you take a Defensive Stance, until the start of your next turn, the first melee attack that targets you each turn is made with disadvantage.
Since each of the warrior classes have their own key characteristics for staying in combat (Barbarian: high hp & damage resistance but low AC, Fighter: high AC, middling hp, flexible build options) why not make simply being very hard to hit in melee one of the Monk’s key characteristics? You can improve this feature at higher levels by allowing the monk to do both options at the same time or by keeping the choice but improve both options.
This would give monks a defensive option to use in combat from lvl 1, whilst also keeping their option to do additional damage open. It also wouldn’t take much away from the Martial Disciplines as they give stronger effects for the cost of a discipline point. It also would mean that you're not trying to get higher and higher AC scores as your only defence.
More Wisdom based? No thanks, why a warrior monk has to be so wise? It also allows dips for other Wis based characters and get full unarmored defense with only 1 level. That’s why all the class stuff should be more associated to class level, instead ability scores.
5 rounds of combat between SRs isn't very realistic for level 11, which is why I assumed 10 rounds of combat between SRs at level 11. One D&D monk is actually more dependent on unarmed strikes since their weapon damage dice don't scale with their martial arts die - so instead of parity at level 11, unarmed strikes are higher damage than weapons at level 11. Sure with the level 7 feature you could probably double-dip on DPs for 1 combat per day and recoup the DPs with the one-minute SR. However, it would have to be for one of the easier combats of the day b/c if it was a deadly combat the whole party will want a SR since multiple characters should be close to 0 hp, whereas if the party is healthy enough to continue with just a few healing spells it was probably just a minor skirmish and you may not have bothered to spend all your DPs.
But even if we assume Stunning Strike on each round, it's not going to add 10 DPR to catch up to Fighter.
And PS: I didn't optimize the Fighters, if I had I would have used Greatsword + GWM rather than Greataxe, and I would have given them two combat feats at level 11 rather than 1. This was simply the most obvious choices a martial player could make for their combat style of choice.
Even with the monk damage scaling, even at a d12 it NEVER exceeds dagger+ hand axe on one of its attacks because of nick and vex, old monk didn't have this issue because weapon properties didn't really matter its unarmed attacks and its weapon attacks eventually became equal. Other than that we agree that the Monk has not much to offer after level 7. But neither does the barbarian. Fighter is the only warrior that gets better and better past getting that asi at 8.
(essentially average of 6.5+5 or 11.5 is less than 2.5+3.5+5 or 11 + potentially getting advantage on your next attack)
It have just occurred to me that one implication if replacing "magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance" to force damage is that the monk can no longer benefit from the crusher feat (or slasher/piercer, for some species) with their unarmed strike. Or rather, since you can choose if your unarmed strikes deals force damage or not, you can still benefit from either the feat or overcoming resistance, but not both.
Yeah, the barbarian higher level abilities are quite underwhelming. If we look at dpr increase for all weapon-based classes from level 8-20, assuming 70% hit chance and ignoring magic:
I would call the power increase for the fighter, paladin, beastmaster ranger, and rogue is about right. Barbarian, monk, and non-beastmaster ranger needs boosting.
That's not how the math works out. Let's make some actual assumptions and crunch the numbers.
Unarmed Strike: [9.5 (d10 + 4) * 0.55] + [13 (2d10 + 4) * 0.05] = 5.875
Handaxe: [7.5 (d6 + 4) * 0.55] + [11 (2d6 + 4) * 0.05] = 4.675
Dagger (Advantage): [2.5 (d4) * 0.7425] + [5 (2d4) * 0.0975] = 2.34375
You can be right for the wrong reasons. What's confusing me is why you're still trying to separate these into mutually exclusive options. With the way Extra Attack works, you can perform four attacks with no Discipline Point expenditure in the following order: handaxe, dagger, handaxe, unarmed strike. It's unofficial, but there is a tweet saying the trigger for TWF is the first attack itself, and not the completed action. And with advantage on two attacks, their overall output would look closer to the following...
Handaxe: [7.5 (d6 + 4) * 0.55] + [11 (2d6 + 4) * 0.05] = 4.675
Dagger (Advantage): [2.5 (d4) * 0.7425] + [5 (2d4) * 0.0975] = 2.34375
Handaxe: [7.5 (d6 + 4) * 0.55] + [11 (2d6 + 4) * 0.05] = 4.675
Unarmed Strike (Advantage): [9.5 (d10 + 4) * 0.7425] + [13 (2d10 + 4) * 0.0975] = 8.32125
Unarmed Strike (Flurry of Blows): [9.5 (d10 + 4) * 0.55] + [13 (2d10 + 4) * 0.05] = 5.875
Now, it should go without saying I haven't done everyone else's numbers. That said, an effective DPR floor of 20.015 doesn't sound terrible in a vacuum. Especially for a class which can't put to use any of the big DPR "boosters" like GWM and PAM. The monk, as a class, is built differently. And even though I've advocated for increasing its numbers, focusing on sheer damage output is a mistake.
You should be making the dagger attack first, the hand axe second and then the advantage possibility from vex should be applied to the unarmed strike rather than the dagger.
The attack order should be dagger, nick trigger axe possible vex trigger, extra attack unarmed strike, and either bonus action unarmed strike or bonus action flurry for 2 unarmed strikes. More attacks with the dagger or hand axe are detrimental.
Edit: remember vex is triggered on Hand-axe HIT not on Hand-axe ATTACK. Scroll higher into my older numbers and you will see the accuracy numbers actually there and not the simplified thing you replied to.
Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking about low levels. The monk doesn’t get stunning strike until 5th and this second ASI you now want to bring up comes online at 6th. Just admit you were wrong and that a monk with 3 attacks at level 2 is too strong. It is also still stronger than your very specific PAM fighter at level 4 as well. Especially since at level 4 the monk could have 18 dex 16 Wis. If you read my post you would see I asked Why is the your monk so superior to the fighter at low level? Stop trying to move the goal post to make this an argument I was never having.
The Fighting Style improves the average for the Fighter.
I insist that the monk only needs:
- Fighting Style: to define its combat style, i.e. if uses thrown weapons or dual wielder. And relax requirements, i.e. defensive granting +1AC no matter the condition.
- Unarmored defense: based on proficiency, if we take a look at previous editions:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk_In_The_Dungeon_(3.5e_Class)
IMO is time to recover that. It even added the Wis modifier, but probably it would be too much for the 5E maths. This allows to get feats instead full ASI +2.
- Better work on Unarmed Strike: allow to use Dex for monk DC, or a rework based on hit instead DC, and use DC later to escape (allowing to use Dex for the monk DC).
- Relax feat requirements or grant a martial weapon to monk: all feats requiring a martial weapon should add the "or Warrior class" if not granting at least one to the monk.
- Add a few extra Discipline points for lower levels. At high level they will not matter much.
At level 4 a Fighter who take a combat feat also has 18 to their primary stat because all combat feats are now half feats granting a +1 to STR in OneD&D. So a Fighter that starts with a 15 in STR +2 from racial ability scores + 1 from a combat feat = 18 STR at level 4 , exactly the same as a Monk spending that ASI for a +2 DEX.
Even at level 2 monk with 3 attacks 2x per SR is not the strongest melee character, Ranger is the most powerful at level 2, and Fighter is still beating Monk DPR:
Level 2: 4 rounds of combat between SRs
Monk + Fists - 0.65*(3.5+3)*2.5 = 10.5 DPR
Rogue + Shortsword - 0.65*(3.5+3) + 0.65*0.88*(3.5) + 0.35*0.65*3.5 + 0.88*3.5 (sneakattack) = 10.1 DPR
Ranger + Shortsword - 0.65*(3.5+3) + 0.65*0.88*(3.5+3) + 0.35*0.65*(3.5+3) + 0.88*3.5 (Hunter's Mark) = 12.5 DPR
Fighter + Shortsword - 0.65*(3.5+3) + 0.65*0.88*(3.5+3) + 0.35*0.65*(3.5+3) + 0.25*(0.88*(3.5+3)) = 11.4
Barbarian + Greatsword - 0.65*(3.5*2+3+2 + 0.8) + 0.35*3 = 9.4
Fighter + Greatsword - 1.25*(0.65*(3.5*2+3+2 + 0.8) + 0.35*3) = 10.1
It's cute you think that's simplified. If you think you have better numbers, then present them or link them. I'm not scrolling back 25 pages to find your math.
And you're wrong about the attack order. Two-Weapon Fighting stipulates two different light melee weapons must be used. But it's the Nick mastery which lets you move that additional attack from the bonus action to the action. If the dagger is used to trigger TWF, then the first handaxe attack is made (a) without the ability modifier to damage and (b) with the monk's bonus action. The monk is forced to choose between a second handaxe attack or using their unarmed strike.
If you delay, in order to get a third attack, then the attack order becomes dagger/handaxe/dagger. They keep their unarmed strike, but your order is still wrong.
We have all traveled down a deep dark rabbit hole. Though I realize some are very invested in this particular... thing... Is it worth continuing its pursuit?
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
it just goes to show the stress on low level adventurers: taking on multiple quests just to earn subpar ale and a leaky roof for the night. you hear kings grumping that "no one wants to quest anymore," but really the hussle for dpr remains a rat race. don't forget to tip your melee warriors!
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Please sir, may I havez rpeez please? Only a tuppence a day.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I said stop moving goal post, but now you bring the Ranger into the conversation. Please stop moving the goal post. Stop it. Admit you were wrong it’s okay.
A level 11 Fighter that has taken PAM, GWM, and Sentinel, to get to Str 20. And yes, a melee Fighter will use specific feats to maximize their combat ability. With full plate armor and the defensive fighting style they'll have a minimum of 19AC, more with magical armor.
3(d10+5)+(d4+5)+4, for 28 to 58 damage a turn. If they use a glaive with the graze property that damage will never drop below 20 even if they miss with everything.
Monk burning ki is rolling 4(d10+5) for between 24 and 60 damage, with the risk of doing no damage if they miss with everything. They are still one level off getting their AC to 19.
As I've said before, ki allows the Monk to keep up with fighters in melee. However if they use their ki/bonus action for anything other than fighting their damage is cut in half.
But on the plus side it's a lot harder to run out of ki at level 11.
And for that an unarmored defense based partially on monk level instead both Dex and Wis does the trick. Now the Monk can get also feats while increasing its Dex.
Aside from that, I noticed something that does not fit very well, and its that it is really bad in some things it should be good, like i.e. climbing, as using Str modifier makes the monk much worse than Str based, while the monk has that awesome acrobatics, not much sure about its use in many situation, not getting its real mobility until level 9. An option could be that Martial Arts or Unarmored Movement granting to use Dex modifier for some athletics, like climbing, swimming, those involving movement, but not those involving "weight", like pushing, forcing, etc.
I suggested making Monk AC 10+2(dexterity modifier). If they start with +3 dex modifier that's AC16, and they can get up to AC20 by level 8.
unarmed AC is +dex +wis so that balanced stat builds are not under-encouraged. also because the devs expect most players to land around 14AC without feeling weak. see Edgin Darvis, Doric, and Sofina as quick examples. they seem to acknowledge that a dex focus and more AC can mean a tougher warrior (martial arts adept) but not every warrior is the very toughest (immortal lotus monk).
honestly, if i had a change to make it would be to give more weight to wisdom. maybe something like "AC = your wisdom score" and "you may use your WIS in place of CHA for ability checks" because monks
areshould be more than standing on a pier doing crane kicks.unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I suggested this a couple of pages ago but why not change the Bonus Unarmed Strike part of Martial Arts to the following:
Flexable Style: When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or simple weapon on your turn, as a bonus action you can either make one Unarmed strike or take a Defensive Stance. When you take a Defensive Stance, until the start of your next turn, the first melee attack that targets you each turn is made with disadvantage.
Since each of the warrior classes have their own key characteristics for staying in combat (Barbarian: high hp & damage resistance but low AC, Fighter: high AC, middling hp, flexible build options) why not make simply being very hard to hit in melee one of the Monk’s key characteristics? You can improve this feature at higher levels by allowing the monk to do both options at the same time or by keeping the choice but improve both options.
This would give monks a defensive option to use in combat from lvl 1, whilst also keeping their option to do additional damage open. It also wouldn’t take much away from the Martial Disciplines as they give stronger effects for the cost of a discipline point. It also would mean that you're not trying to get higher and higher AC scores as your only defence.
More Wisdom based? No thanks, why a warrior monk has to be so wise? It also allows dips for other Wis based characters and get full unarmored defense with only 1 level. That’s why all the class stuff should be more associated to class level, instead ability scores.