Can put the darkness at the “frontier” with enemy, covering you but not the enemy. The opportunity attack requires to see you, that is not the case if you are in darkness. Also as it cannot see you, you attack with advantage.
You must be able to see the creature to make an opportunity attack.
Darkness has a 15 ft radius, and if it is between the enemy and your allies it still blocks their vision (b/c darkness is weird in 5e). So positioning it as such is pretty tricky, sure sometimes this works fine, but it makes it a situational feature rather than a universal buff.
It’s why I put in my survey that shadow monks should be able to alter the size of their darkness in addition to moving it. Since shadow monks can move their darkness it helps with controlling how much it affects the party. It’s not perfect but helps.
That is not how it works RAW. RAW you must take the Hide action for other characters to not know where you are, which would take the Monk's Action to use, and if any enemy can see/find you because of : Devil's Sight, Blindsight, Tremorsense, or Truesight, or by using a Perception check, then they can tell all the enemies where you are without using any actions. Without the Hide action the enemy knows where you are and can attack with disadvantage. OR since in 5eR shoving is based on a save, they could use one attack to Shove you prone without any penalty and then attack you with straight attack rolls.
Yes, if they have any special sense to see through Magical Darkness (and invisibility at 17) then sure, they can see and attack you normally. But the only enemy that knows your location is the one you hit, the rest still have to find you even if the other told them where you are, and nothing is preventing you from moving away from that creature's reach (you don't provoke an AoO if it cannot see you). Also that shove still requires an attack roll made with disadvantage (assuming they found you first).
Secondly, you are assuming the initiative order is as such: Monk Enemy Rest of the party
If that is not the case then if the monk ends their turn with the enemy in the darkness then that darkness will hinder the attacks / actions of all your allies who have a turn prior to the enemy's turn which on average is 1/2 of the party, regardless of what the enemy chooses to do.
We've had years of Warlocks being able to combo Devil's Sight + Darkness and it is only moderately popular among ranged warlocks and hardly used at all by hexblades for exactly the reason of "it messes up your allies actions".
I mean, that's when teamwork and planning come into work, right? If the party knows what the monk can do, and the monk player knows that not everyone can see through the darkness it creates, then they shouldn't mindlessly cover enemies in a darkness only the monk can use, they take care it won't hinder the others so much, and this is why I think you can move the Darkness at the start of your turn for no action instead of just carrying the Darkness everywhere (and you still can do this, btw). And interestingly, initiative comes into play here, if you go first and your allies right after, just cast the darkness away from your allies and your enemies and wait inside until you can move it safely (you have the mobility to do so); if the enemies go before your allies but after you, then most strategic area you can use that won't 'hinder your allies actions'.
Yes, if they have any special sense to see through Magical Darkness (and invisibility at 17) then sure, they can see and attack you normally. But the only enemy that knows your location is the one you hit, the rest still have to find you even if the other told them where you are.
Nope. Once your hide is broken, everyone on the map knows your position until you successfully hide again. They do have disadvantage to attack you unless they have some ability to see you, but that's all.
Nope. Once your hide is broken, everyone on the map knows your position until you successfully hide again. They do have disadvantage to attack you unless they have some ability to see you, but that's all.
Umm, I guess that's a rule that still needs work, I reread the unseen attacker rules and you are right, but the whole "give away your location", it's not clear if it is for the target of the attack or everyone in the world (specially since they still can't see you). I say this because it's on the same paragraph it mentions "a creature that can't see you". I will follow you in this regard, although causing disadvantage on all attacks and not provoking AoO (basically dodging and disengaging) should suffice for the skirmisher style Shadow monk is trying to use.
They know your current location, if you move, they must locate you in some way (like Perception checks). It is not like you turn semi-transparent or getting a mark over your head.
They know your current location, if you move, they must locate you in some way (like Perception checks). It is not like you turn semi-transparent or getting a mark over your head.
No, unless you Hide, creatures are aware of where you are from the noise you make and the foot prints you leave, and various other small disturbances you make - disturbing curtains, scuffing rugs, rustling branches, crunching grass etc... no perception check needed. Just go stand next to a road and close your eyes and then try to tell me you have no idea when a car drives past, where it is as it does so, how fast the car is going and what direction it is moving in.
They know your current location, if you move, they must locate you in some way (like Perception checks). It is not like you turn semi-transparent or getting a mark over your head.
No, unless you Hide, creatures are aware of where you are from the noise you make and the foot prints you leave, and various other small disturbances you make - disturbing curtains, scuffing rugs, rustling branches, crunching grass etc... no perception check needed. Just go stand next to a road and close your eyes and then try to tell me you have no idea when a car drives past, where it is as it does so, how fast the car is going and what direction it is moving in.
Hard floor, you have to hear the noise (why is that an auto-success?), the invisible one disturbed the curtains deliberately for distracting you about its real position, is there reverberation in the environment?, how can you know the exact position the sound comes from?, and etc.
That is why the required Wis (Perception) check. You cannot grant auto-success just because you noticed there is someone there. Depending situation you can grant dis/advantage and etc., but unless you have blindsight, there is no way you simply know where it is by default.
Also, assuming that the archer at 300' knows where you moved just because you attacked someone while (improved) invisible...ummm not, simply not.
Edit: I'd work it some more. If the unseen is rounding your area of effect (5' or 10' with Reach) not requiring you to move, I'd buy you that it can try to hit directly imagining its position (that's why the disadvantage). Using darkness as example, is like if you close your eyes and someone moves normally at 20-30' from you, would you move always the 100% of the times in the correct direction and stepping close the exact distance to touch it extending your hand with some extender (the weapon)?.
Then, unless the character makes noise or something deliberately to get attention, even if not using actively its hiding, can always check the observant Perception against the passive Stealth with disadvantage of the unseen creature. Granting also dis/advantage or not to the Perception depending the situation, i.e. in darkness on soft floor, cannot see the footprints and use only the sound, but the floor is soft.
I mean they could just point and shout "They are right there!". Even a dog has no trouble following a pointed finger or even just the direction someone is looking in.
A dog might look in the direction you point, but there's an extra step from that to understanding exactly what they're being told to do and how; you can tell someone a particular patch of darkness is the one they're after all you want, but they still won't see anything there, so unless they have total, unquestioning confidence in your abilities and commands there's still some extra step required. Whether that's Persuasion or something else, it shouldn't ever be free, and that's exactly what ability checks are for (anything with a chance of failure).
Because allowing free actions to completely counteract game mechanics, especially ones that cost resources and matter so rarely in 5e, sets a very dangerous precedent, because if you let the players do it, then enemies should do it too, and vice versa. At which point you might as well just declare that you're not going to use the visibility rules.
It's also worth remembering that while combat may be turn based, it's all supposed to be happening simultaneously; it's a fast-paced, chaotic mess, your allies aren't just standing there politely waiting for instructions, you're trying to tell them something while they're actively fighting for their lives. The moment something in combat (other than walking unobstructed over a flat surface I guess) becomes too reliable it should raise a red flag, because unless a lot of work was put into making it reliable, it's being handled wrong.
assuming that the archer at 300' knows where you moved just because you attacked someone while (improved) invisible...ummm not, simply not.
This depends on how your DM is ruling the sound; just because something is audible, doesn't mean everyone can hear it. At a distance of 300 feet you'd need to be making signficant noise to be easily audible, and the chances of getting an accurate fix are pretty low, but this is something the core rules simply don't discuss.
As with anything with a chance of failure (hearing you) it comes down to your DM's choice of an ability check, with or without advantage/disadvantage as they see fit. Personally I'd rule someone who isn't doing anything especially noisy probably wouldn't be heard at that range, but if you don't want to be heard, why are you not Hiding? Because the whole point of the Hide action is to be extra careful about the noise you're making.
I believe one of the official DM screens has some kind of table for audible ranges based on volumes (quiet, moderate, loud) but it's still a bit vague and left to the DM to decide. While DM discretion is the right way to run things like this, due to how many factors might need to be considered, it would be nice to have some proper guidance on the subject.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I mean they could just point and shout "They are right there!". Even a dog has no trouble following a pointed finger or even just the direction someone is looking in.
A dog might look in the direction you point, but there's an extra step from that to understanding exactly what they're being told to do and how; you can tell someone a particular patch of darkness is the one they're after all you want, but they still won't see anything there, so unless they have total, unquestioning confidence in your abilities and commands there's still some extra step required. Whether that's Persuasion or something else, it shouldn't ever be free, and that's exactly what ability checks are for (anything with a chance of failure).
Because allowing free actions to completely counteract game mechanics, especially ones that cost resources and matter so rarely in 5e, sets a very dangerous precedent, because if you let the players do it, then enemies should do it too, and vice versa. At which point you might as well just declare that you're not going to use the visibility rules.
Sorry but you are the one not following the RAW visibility rules. RAW being invisible does not mean that creatures need to make any kind of check to locate you, here it is straight from the PHB (Condition: Invisible):
An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
Notice no where does it say any creature - friend or foe - needs to make a Perception check to detect the creature's location, just that it's location can be detected by noise & tracks.
PHB (Condition: Blinded)
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
Note no where does it say the blinded creature does not know the location of other creatures, nor does it say it needs to make any kind of check in order to attack other creatures.
PHB (Unseen Attackers & Targets):
Combatants often try to escape their foes’ notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target’s location correctly.
When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
Notice this explicitly differentiates when you are guessing the target's location which is contrasted with targeting a creature you can hear but not see, thus indicating that if you can hear a creature you are not guessing it's location. Again no mention of any type of skill check in order to locate the creature, if you can hear a creature you know it's location even if you can't see it. It then specifies that being hidden means you are unseen and unheard when discussing giving away your location, again implying creatures only don't know your location if you are unseen and unheard.
In addition, the RAW rules say that when you make an attack you give away your location, there is no range specified, no requirement for a creature to hear you in this case even. Simply, if you make an attack - melee, ranged, spell, any attack - you give away your location.
PHB (Vision and Light)
The most fundamental tasks of adventuring — noticing danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few — rely heavily on a character's ability to see.
Here again, in the Vision and Light rules it is specifically stated that hitting an enemy in combat - not locating an enemy, not being able to attack an enemy - depends on a character's ability to see. This is consistent with the above that being unable to see a creature only gives attacks disadvantageit does not mean other creatures don't know the unseen creature's location.
If we look into the UA where they are attempting to further clarify the rules:
HIDDEN [CONDITION]
While you are Hidden, you experience the following effects:
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen
Surprise. If you are Hidden when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. Attacks Affected.
Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your Attack Rolls have Advantage.
Ending the Condition. The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover.
INVISIBLE [CONDITION]
While you are Invisible, you experience the following effects:
Unseeable. You can’t be seen, so you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying also can’t be seen.
Surprise. If you are Invisible when you roll initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Attacks Affected. Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your Attack Rolls have Advantage.
SEARCH [ACTION]
When you take the Search Action, you make a Wisdom Check to discern something that isn’t obvious.
The Search table suggests which Skills are applicable when you take this Action, depending on what you’re trying to detect.
SEARCH
Skill Thing to Detect
Insight Creature’s state of mind
Medicine Creature’s ailment
Perception Concealed creature or object
Survival Tracks or food
Here in the UA we again see the rules distinguishing Hiding vs Invisible, where Hidden makes a creature Concealed, but Invisible only make a creature Unseen. And the Search Action specifically requires a Perception check as an action to detect a Concealed creature - i.e. a creature that has taken the Hide action and is considered Hidden - not an unseen one.
TREMORSENSE
A creature with Tremorsense can pinpoint the location of creatures and moving objects within a specific range, provided that the creature with Tremorsense and anything it’s detecting are both in contact with the same surface (such as the ground, a wall, or a ceiling) or the same liquid. Tremorsense can’t detect creatures or objects in the air, and Tremorsense doesn’t count as a form of sight.
And again in Tremorsense we see that "sight" and thus seeing is a separate thing from knowing a creature's location, with Tremorsense explicitly allowing a creature to always know the location of creature but not allowing the targets to be seen.
I mean they could just point and shout "They are right there!". Even a dog has no trouble following a pointed finger or even just the direction someone is looking in.
A dog might look in the direction you point, but there's an extra step from that to understanding exactly what they're being told to do and how.
If a person points and looks at a location, a dog will instinctively follow that and look at that location, many will even go to that location without you saying a word. Try it yourself! But no seriously, and I know this will probably fall on deaf ears since we've had this argument before, but enemies are not deaf, blind, and dumb. Being "in combat" doesn't make you utterly unaware of everything other than what is right in front of you, otherwise any attack against a creature that has an enemy within 5ft of them would be made at advantage. The Rules say you are just as able to defend yourself from an archer shooting an arrow at you from 100 ft away if you are standing around with nothing to do, or if you are actively in combat with another creature, and less able to defend yourself if that archer is invisible.
The reason making an attack reveals your location is that having an arrow hit you or fly within inches of your face means that you will instinctively instantly turn to look where that arrow came from and thus see the archer before they can hide again. Nobody just gets hit by an arrow in the back and looks at it and says to themselves "Huh? I wonder where that came from..."
how can you know the exact position the sound comes from
Because of stereophonic hearing. Pretty much every animal on the planet can do it because being able to identify the location of something by sound alone is incredibly advantageous for survival.
Notice they mention always “you can” (for hear). The rules are very vague, and notice they don’t mention you auto-track the target once you notice the (original) position. That’s why I use that passive stealth with disadvantage as default that implies moving not paying special attention but not making noise intentionally as starting point then Perception check from the observer with modifiers depending situation to get a result.
Within the rules can and can't have the plain meanings (example, if you're surprised you can't take your action). If it was something that required a check they specifically call that out.
But how you determine that “can hear but cannot see”?
This is my biggest issue with 5e (or one of them at least), there is absolutely no explicit information about hearing anywhere in the books despite it being crucial to stealth, communication, etc... I also encountered in with Dissonant Whispers vs an Animated Sword -> Dissonant Whispers requires the target to 'hear' but does an Animated Sword 'hear'?? for sight it relies on some weird blindsight, but there is just nothing with respect to hearing..
My best guess is that creatures can hear just fine ~60 ft since lots of Verbal Bard spells (and Bardic Inspiration which is a verbal thing) have a range of 60 ft. Otherwise the only hints is that normal hearing in 5e is something less than 300 ft since Knock and some thunder-based spells specify they can be heard 300 ft away, which implies normal magic cannot be heard that far away.
But how do you determine that “can hear but cannot see”?
There's no effect (deafened, etc) preventing hearing, and the target has not successfully used hide.
It's important to realize that the invisibility rules in 5e are not trying to be realistic. They're trying to produce a good game, and 'guess at target location' mechanics like you had in 3e are terrible gameplay.
But how you determine that “can hear but cannot see”?
This is my biggest issue with 5e (or one of them at least), there is absolutely no explicit information about hearing anywhere in the books despite it being crucial to stealth, communication, etc... I also encountered in with Dissonant Whispers vs an Animated Sword -> Dissonant Whispers requires the target to 'hear' but does an Animated Sword 'hear'?? for sight it relies on some weird blindsight, but there is just nothing with respect to hearing..
My best guess is that creatures can hear just fine ~60 ft since lots of Verbal Bard spells (and Bardic Inspiration which is a verbal thing) have a range of 60 ft. Otherwise the only hints is that normal hearing in 5e is something less than 300 ft since Knock and some thunder-based spells specify they can be heard 300 ft away, which implies normal magic cannot be heard that far away.
i looked up flying sword fully expecting to see immune to deaf and therefore, ah-hah, it must not have ears! ...but it's also immune to blind yet has blindsight, so that fell apart quick. doesn't understand any languages! ...but only 1 Int so that's not an ear issue. yeah, i'd even take 'resistant to thunder damage' as guidance at this point but that's not there either. it's a mystery.
edit: although it is, i failed to notice, immune to dissonant whispers's psychic damage. but your point still stands.
Would monk having patient defense as bonus action with no cost, or using resources for a free action be good idea for monk?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Would monk having patient defense as bonus action with no cost, or using resources for a free action be good idea for monk?
you can dodge as a 0dp action now. perhaps the question is why not allow the martial arts bonus strike and flurry to occur without the "did you use Attack this turn?" gate. if the baldurs gate video game is doing it, it might show up in the UA tomorrow.
but at that point the feature aught to just assume an unsurprised monk in combat is basically always dodging unless they actively step, flurry, or bonus strike. permanent dodge isn't the defense i want for monk, but it isn't out of character and it isn't uncanny. even pets auto-dodge when they're not told who to bite.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Would monk having patient defense as bonus action with no cost, or using resources for a free action be good idea for monk?
you can dodge as a 0dp action now. perhaps the question is why not allow the martial arts bonus strike and flurry to occur without the "did you use Attack this turn?" gate. if the baldurs gate video game is doing it, it might show up in the UA tomorrow.
Probably worth pointing out that Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't have the normal Dodge action, so Patient Defense is the only way to properly Dodge; the benefit of Bonus Unarmed Strike/Flurry of Blows no longer having that extra condition is you can use other actions like casting spells as four elements, taking the Help action to raise a downed ally, sometimes killing an enemy then Hiding after etc., also means you can Dash and still make one attack without spending any Ki.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Darkness has a 15 ft radius, and if it is between the enemy and your allies it still blocks their vision (b/c darkness is weird in 5e). So positioning it as such is pretty tricky, sure sometimes this works fine, but it makes it a situational feature rather than a universal buff.
It’s why I put in my survey that shadow monks should be able to alter the size of their darkness in addition to moving it. Since shadow monks can move their darkness it helps with controlling how much it affects the party. It’s not perfect but helps.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yes, if they have any special sense to see through Magical Darkness (and invisibility at 17) then sure, they can see and attack you normally. But the only enemy that knows your location is the one you hit, the rest still have to find you even if the other told them where you are, and nothing is preventing you from moving away from that creature's reach (you don't provoke an AoO if it cannot see you). Also that shove still requires an attack roll made with disadvantage (assuming they found you first).
I mean, that's when teamwork and planning come into work, right? If the party knows what the monk can do, and the monk player knows that not everyone can see through the darkness it creates, then they shouldn't mindlessly cover enemies in a darkness only the monk can use, they take care it won't hinder the others so much, and this is why I think you can move the Darkness at the start of your turn for no action instead of just carrying the Darkness everywhere (and you still can do this, btw). And interestingly, initiative comes into play here, if you go first and your allies right after, just cast the darkness away from your allies and your enemies and wait inside until you can move it safely (you have the mobility to do so); if the enemies go before your allies but after you, then most strategic area you can use that won't 'hinder your allies actions'.
Nope. Once your hide is broken, everyone on the map knows your position until you successfully hide again. They do have disadvantage to attack you unless they have some ability to see you, but that's all.
Umm, I guess that's a rule that still needs work, I reread the unseen attacker rules and you are right, but the whole "give away your location", it's not clear if it is for the target of the attack or everyone in the world (specially since they still can't see you). I say this because it's on the same paragraph it mentions "a creature that can't see you". I will follow you in this regard, although causing disadvantage on all attacks and not provoking AoO (basically dodging and disengaging) should suffice for the skirmisher style Shadow monk is trying to use.
They know your current location, if you move, they must locate you in some way (like Perception checks). It is not like you turn semi-transparent or getting a mark over your head.
No, unless you Hide, creatures are aware of where you are from the noise you make and the foot prints you leave, and various other small disturbances you make - disturbing curtains, scuffing rugs, rustling branches, crunching grass etc... no perception check needed. Just go stand next to a road and close your eyes and then try to tell me you have no idea when a car drives past, where it is as it does so, how fast the car is going and what direction it is moving in.
Hard floor, you have to hear the noise (why is that an auto-success?), the invisible one disturbed the curtains deliberately for distracting you about its real position, is there reverberation in the environment?, how can you know the exact position the sound comes from?, and etc.
That is why the required Wis (Perception) check. You cannot grant auto-success just because you noticed there is someone there. Depending situation you can grant dis/advantage and etc., but unless you have blindsight, there is no way you simply know where it is by default.
Also, assuming that the archer at 300' knows where you moved just because you attacked someone while (improved) invisible...ummm not, simply not.
Edit: I'd work it some more. If the unseen is rounding your area of effect (5' or 10' with Reach) not requiring you to move, I'd buy you that it can try to hit directly imagining its position (that's why the disadvantage). Using darkness as example, is like if you close your eyes and someone moves normally at 20-30' from you, would you move always the 100% of the times in the correct direction and stepping close the exact distance to touch it extending your hand with some extender (the weapon)?.
Then, unless the character makes noise or something deliberately to get attention, even if not using actively its hiding, can always check the observant Perception against the passive Stealth with disadvantage of the unseen creature. Granting also dis/advantage or not to the Perception depending the situation, i.e. in darkness on soft floor, cannot see the footprints and use only the sound, but the floor is soft.
A dog might look in the direction you point, but there's an extra step from that to understanding exactly what they're being told to do and how; you can tell someone a particular patch of darkness is the one they're after all you want, but they still won't see anything there, so unless they have total, unquestioning confidence in your abilities and commands there's still some extra step required. Whether that's Persuasion or something else, it shouldn't ever be free, and that's exactly what ability checks are for (anything with a chance of failure).
Because allowing free actions to completely counteract game mechanics, especially ones that cost resources and matter so rarely in 5e, sets a very dangerous precedent, because if you let the players do it, then enemies should do it too, and vice versa. At which point you might as well just declare that you're not going to use the visibility rules.
It's also worth remembering that while combat may be turn based, it's all supposed to be happening simultaneously; it's a fast-paced, chaotic mess, your allies aren't just standing there politely waiting for instructions, you're trying to tell them something while they're actively fighting for their lives. The moment something in combat (other than walking unobstructed over a flat surface I guess) becomes too reliable it should raise a red flag, because unless a lot of work was put into making it reliable, it's being handled wrong.
This depends on how your DM is ruling the sound; just because something is audible, doesn't mean everyone can hear it. At a distance of 300 feet you'd need to be making signficant noise to be easily audible, and the chances of getting an accurate fix are pretty low, but this is something the core rules simply don't discuss.
As with anything with a chance of failure (hearing you) it comes down to your DM's choice of an ability check, with or without advantage/disadvantage as they see fit. Personally I'd rule someone who isn't doing anything especially noisy probably wouldn't be heard at that range, but if you don't want to be heard, why are you not Hiding? Because the whole point of the Hide action is to be extra careful about the noise you're making.
I believe one of the official DM screens has some kind of table for audible ranges based on volumes (quiet, moderate, loud) but it's still a bit vague and left to the DM to decide. While DM discretion is the right way to run things like this, due to how many factors might need to be considered, it would be nice to have some proper guidance on the subject.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Sorry but you are the one not following the RAW visibility rules. RAW being invisible does not mean that creatures need to make any kind of check to locate you, here it is straight from the PHB (Condition: Invisible):
Notice no where does it say any creature - friend or foe - needs to make a Perception check to detect the creature's location, just that it's location can be detected by noise & tracks.
PHB (Condition: Blinded)
Note no where does it say the blinded creature does not know the location of other creatures, nor does it say it needs to make any kind of check in order to attack other creatures.
PHB (Unseen Attackers & Targets):
Notice this explicitly differentiates when you are guessing the target's location which is contrasted with targeting a creature you can hear but not see, thus indicating that if you can hear a creature you are not guessing it's location. Again no mention of any type of skill check in order to locate the creature, if you can hear a creature you know it's location even if you can't see it. It then specifies that being hidden means you are unseen and unheard when discussing giving away your location, again implying creatures only don't know your location if you are unseen and unheard.
In addition, the RAW rules say that when you make an attack you give away your location, there is no range specified, no requirement for a creature to hear you in this case even. Simply, if you make an attack - melee, ranged, spell, any attack - you give away your location.
PHB (Vision and Light)
Here again, in the Vision and Light rules it is specifically stated that hitting an enemy in combat - not locating an enemy, not being able to attack an enemy - depends on a character's ability to see. This is consistent with the above that being unable to see a creature only gives attacks disadvantage it does not mean other creatures don't know the unseen creature's location.
If we look into the UA where they are attempting to further clarify the rules:
Here in the UA we again see the rules distinguishing Hiding vs Invisible, where Hidden makes a creature Concealed, but Invisible only make a creature Unseen. And the Search Action specifically requires a Perception check as an action to detect a Concealed creature - i.e. a creature that has taken the Hide action and is considered Hidden - not an unseen one.
And again in Tremorsense we see that "sight" and thus seeing is a separate thing from knowing a creature's location, with Tremorsense explicitly allowing a creature to always know the location of creature but not allowing the targets to be seen.
If a person points and looks at a location, a dog will instinctively follow that and look at that location, many will even go to that location without you saying a word. Try it yourself! But no seriously, and I know this will probably fall on deaf ears since we've had this argument before, but enemies are not deaf, blind, and dumb. Being "in combat" doesn't make you utterly unaware of everything other than what is right in front of you, otherwise any attack against a creature that has an enemy within 5ft of them would be made at advantage. The Rules say you are just as able to defend yourself from an archer shooting an arrow at you from 100 ft away if you are standing around with nothing to do, or if you are actively in combat with another creature, and less able to defend yourself if that archer is invisible.
The reason making an attack reveals your location is that having an arrow hit you or fly within inches of your face means that you will instinctively instantly turn to look where that arrow came from and thus see the archer before they can hide again. Nobody just gets hit by an arrow in the back and looks at it and says to themselves "Huh? I wonder where that came from..."
Because of stereophonic hearing. Pretty much every animal on the planet can do it because being able to identify the location of something by sound alone is incredibly advantageous for survival.
Notice they mention always “you can” (for hear). The rules are very vague, and notice they don’t mention you auto-track the target once you notice the (original) position. That’s why I use that passive stealth with disadvantage as default that implies moving not paying special attention but not making noise intentionally as starting point then Perception check from the observer with modifiers depending situation to get a result.
Within the rules can and can't have the plain meanings (example, if you're surprised you can't take your action). If it was something that required a check they specifically call that out.
But how do you determine that “can hear but cannot see”?
This is my biggest issue with 5e (or one of them at least), there is absolutely no explicit information about hearing anywhere in the books despite it being crucial to stealth, communication, etc... I also encountered in with Dissonant Whispers vs an Animated Sword -> Dissonant Whispers requires the target to 'hear' but does an Animated Sword 'hear'?? for sight it relies on some weird blindsight, but there is just nothing with respect to hearing..
My best guess is that creatures can hear just fine ~60 ft since lots of Verbal Bard spells (and Bardic Inspiration which is a verbal thing) have a range of 60 ft. Otherwise the only hints is that normal hearing in 5e is something less than 300 ft since Knock and some thunder-based spells specify they can be heard 300 ft away, which implies normal magic cannot be heard that far away.
There's no effect (deafened, etc) preventing hearing, and the target has not successfully used hide.
It's important to realize that the invisibility rules in 5e are not trying to be realistic. They're trying to produce a good game, and 'guess at target location' mechanics like you had in 3e are terrible gameplay.
i looked up flying sword fully expecting to see immune to deaf and therefore, ah-hah, it must not have ears! ...but it's also immune to blind yet has blindsight, so that fell apart quick. doesn't understand any languages! ...but only 1 Int so that's not an ear issue. yeah, i'd even take 'resistant to thunder damage' as guidance at this point but that's not there either. it's a mystery.
edit: although it is, i failed to notice, immune to dissonant whispers's psychic damage. but your point still stands.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Would monk having patient defense as bonus action with no cost, or using resources for a free action be good idea for monk?
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
you can dodge as a 0dp action now. perhaps the question is why not allow the martial arts bonus strike and flurry to occur without the "did you use Attack this turn?" gate. if the baldurs gate video game is doing it, it might show up in the UA tomorrow.
but at that point the feature aught to just assume an unsurprised monk in combat is basically always dodging unless they actively step, flurry, or bonus strike. permanent dodge isn't the defense i want for monk, but it isn't out of character and it isn't uncanny. even pets auto-dodge when they're not told who to bite.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Probably worth pointing out that Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't have the normal Dodge action, so Patient Defense is the only way to properly Dodge; the benefit of Bonus Unarmed Strike/Flurry of Blows no longer having that extra condition is you can use other actions like casting spells as four elements, taking the Help action to raise a downed ally, sometimes killing an enemy then Hiding after etc., also means you can Dash and still make one attack without spending any Ki.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.