In tier 1, using dodge with your action and flurry of blows with your bonus action is clearly superior to using patient defense -- both cost an action and a bonus action, the one gets you a single weapon or unarmed attack (average 8), the other gets you two unarmed attacks (average 13). I'm not sure that's a problem, patient defense is a pretty bad option at least until tier 2.
Dodge is the option against multiple enemies and you can put distance. It's like focusing on evading launching some punches and kicks, which in game mechanics would be the lesser number of attacks. It fits well with the style we see on MA movies when fighting against multiple foes.
you can dodge as a 0dp action now. perhaps the question is why not allow the martial arts bonus strike and flurry to occur without the "did you use Attack this turn?" gate. if the baldurs gate video game is doing it, it might show up in the UA tomorrow.
In 5e/OneD&D, the bonus strike/Flurry of Blows is meant to be the balancing factor to the Monk's simple/unarmed attacks. They do less damage on the Attack action than a user of martial weapons, but the bonus strike gives them rough parity and Flurry of Blows gives them an option to push above that DPR baseline via use of their limited resource (similarly to Action Surge).
In BG3, the bonus strike/Flurry of Blows not requiring an attack prior is purely for the benefit of multiclassers, giving them the extra attacks while using non-Monk abilities or attacks with non-Monk weapons. rather than for Monks themselves.
So Flurry of blows does not currently push monk above baseline at higher levels.
Baseline is typically considered things like Warlock EB+AB+Hex. At level 5 in One dnd assuming a 60% chance to hit that is around 15 DPR, For monk at this level that is 21.3, but at level 11 this changes to 26.66 For Warlock and changes to 26.3 for Monks. So monks end up under baseline in the T3 and T4 of play even IF they use FoB.
I just hope they properly bring the monk up before release . larian did a better job in bg3 with tavern brawler along with open hands extra damage you can actually do a reasonable amount, more then 5e monk can anyway . monk is still bad out of combat but
in bg3 they made it less so, by allowing monk options in the dialogue. knowing that you are M.A.D and would fail most rolls.
I read that the monk in BG3 is yes improved, but still remains the hardest class to build and compared to other classes it struggles. Defined as a class for a small circle of hardcore players.
I just hope they properly bring the monk up before release . larian did a better job in bg3 with tavern brawler along with open hands extra damage you can actually do a reasonable amount, more then 5e monk can anyway . monk is still bad out of combat but
in bg3 they made it less so, by allowing monk options in the dialogue. knowing that you are M.A.D and would fail most rolls.
I read that the monk in BG3 is yes improved, but still remains the hardest class to build and compared to other classes it struggles. Defined as a class for a small circle of hardcore players.
I would not be surprised by this. I will even say that if this monk goes through, as I showed T1 T2 are fine for damage. So using multi classing to keep up with T3 play is probably the way most will go.
The thing with BG3's Monk is that a lot of the additions are meant to keep up with other martials in a game that showers you with loot well above the usual power curve of 5e, such that you're getting legendary-tier equipment by Level 12 without attunement limitations.
It is not at all clear that that's well over the usual power curve of 5e as actually played. One of the core problems with monks is less magic item support than other martials, so power level relative to other martials varies with the loot level of the game (and seems tuned for loot levels well below the usual power curve of 5e; a die type upgrade every tier on unarmed attacks in no way keeps up with average magic weapon progression).
In my opinion, the monk should have something like NICK directly in the Martial Arts - Extra Bonus Attack feature. It could be said that NICK will be of obligation to all classes built to fight with two weapons. The monk being a class that has bonus attacks as its base, it is important for it to catch up.
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/discipline points already a big enough sacrifice?
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/disciplna points already a big enough sacrifice?
IMO: the solution is not to remove the BA cost, but to remove the ki/DP cost for the 3 main choices: BA Attack, PD, SotW* (I mean, BA Attack doesn't have a ki/DP cost, but my point is that those 3 things should only cost your Bonus Action and not some other resource)
How you use your BA is indicating what "mode" you are in for that turn. Are you in offensive mode (BA Attack), defensive mode (PD), or mobility mode (SotW)? It dictates a tactical choice, and its only cost should be your Bonus Action.
(* though, you could make SotW be dash OR disengage as your bonus action, with it costing ki/DP when you want to do BOTH as your bonus action)
And: Nick would allow you to add an extra Attack Action (total of 2 before 5th level, total of 3 at 5th level or higher) attack without giving up that Bonus Action, giving you more offense even when you've given your BA to PD or SotW. And when you combine Nick with "Bonus Action attack", that gets you a total of 3 unarmed strikes at 1st-4th levels, or 4 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later ... and when you add Nick + FoB, that gets you a total of 4 unarmed strikes at 2nd-4th levels, or 5 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later. It's just that one of those attacks wont do attribute mod damage, just the martial arts die damage.
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/disciplna points already a big enough sacrifice?
IMO: the solution is not to remove the BA cost, but to remove the ki/DP cost for the 3 main choices: BA Attack, PD, SotW* (I mean, BA Attack doesn't have a ki/DP cost, but my point is that those 3 things should only cost your Bonus Action and not some other resource)
How you use your BA is indicating what "mode" you are in for that turn. Are you in offensive mode (BA Attack), defensive mode (PD), or mobility mode (SotW)? It dictates a tactical choice, and its only cost should be your Bonus Action.
(* though, you could make SotW be dash OR disengage as your bonus action, with it costing ki/DP when you want to do BOTH as your bonus action)
And: Nick would allow you to add an extra Attack Action (total of 2 before 5th level, total of 3 at 5th level or higher) attack without giving up that Bonus Action, giving you more offense even when you've given your BA to PD or SotW. And when you combine Nick with "Bonus Action attack", that gets you a total of 3 unarmed strikes at 1st-4th levels, or 4 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later ... and when you add Nick + FoB, that gets you a total of 4 unarmed strikes at 2nd-4th levels, or 5 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later. It's just that one of those attacks wont do attribute mod damage, just the martial arts die damage.
I fully agree with this. The three main abilities should not cost any kind of points. It should just be a bonus action like the Rouge’s cunning action. These are after all The abilities that make a monk a monk. Personally, I think they should get rid of points all together or only have them power the subclass abilities but that’s just me. I also think that they should simply allow the monk to use dex when it comes to all unarmed strike based abilities like shove and grapple because it is a really simple fix. The problem is that if they did these things it would pretty much make the open hand entirely irrelevant, but in the same breath there is nothing wrong with that as it leaves room for something else.
I designed a monk class starting from the 1dnd class. I changed many things and tried to solve many problems, among them the excessive consumption of discipline points and the lack of magic items. I opted for a low consumption solution rather than a way to recharge (Eco monk). One point I definitely wanted to have was for unarmored movement to have disengage and dash as bonus actions without resource consumption and a way to make the bonus unarmed attack usable even when using these movement features. I think I also solved the MAD class problem. I may still not be convinced about the Enlightenment feature, but in general I think I have done a very good job.
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons. You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two Handed property.
Martial Arts Die. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This die changes as you gain Monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
Quick Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you use a force point during your turn, you can decide to move your Bonus Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action. It is still possible to make this extra attack only once per turn.
1st: Unarmored Defense
While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Constitution or Wisdom modifiers.
1st: Unarmed Technique
Your training without weapons allows you to learn two Unarmed Techniques, and use them with your unarmed strikes. You cannot repeat the same Technique on the same creature in the same turn. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice others Unarmed Techniques and change the kinds of Unarmed Technique you chose. When you reach certain levels in this class, you gain the ability to use more kinds of Unarmed Techniques, as shown in the Unarmed Techniques column of the Monk table.
List of the Unarmed Techniques
Some of the Unarmed Techniques require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects.. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Techniques save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity or your Wisdom modifier
ADDLE. When you hit a creature with this technique, it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or it can’t take Reactions until the end of your next turn. If used in combination with Iron strike the affected creature automatically fails the constitution saving throw.
BLOCKING. When a creature hits you with an attack, as a reaction you can add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.
COUNTER-STRIKE.When you have active Patient Defense and a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against it. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through Patient Resistance, you can still make a Conter-Strike using the same reaction used to reduce the damage.
DUBLE-STRIKE. When you hit a creature with this technique, you can make an attack roll against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach. On a hit, the second creature takes your Martial Arts Die damage, but don’t add your ability modifier to that damage, unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
DEFLECT-MISSILES. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that missed, and redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through Patient Resistance, you can still deflect the missile using the same reaction used to reduce the damage.
DISARM. If you hit a creature with this technique, you can force the creature to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature drop the chosen object. The object lands at its feet.
DRAIN. When you hit a creature with this technique, you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to half the damage that you provoked. If you do this, the damage becomes necrotic.
GRAPPLER. When you try to grapple, you can choose to use Acrobatics instead of Athletics check.
PUSH. If you hit a creature with your technique, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you if it is no more than one size larger than you. If used in combination with Iron Strike, the affected creature will be pushed 5 feet more and the size no longer affects the technique.
SAP. If you hit a creature with this technique, that creature has Disadvantage on its next attack roll before the start of your next turn.
SLOW. If you hit a creature with this technique and deal damage to the creature, you can reduce its Speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. If used in combination with Iron Strike, the affected creature Speed will be reduce by 20 feet.
SWEEP. If you hit a creature with this technique, you can force the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature has the Prone condition.
VEX. If you hit a creature with this technique and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn.
2nd: Inner Force
Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Force Points. Your Monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Force Points column of the Monk table. You can spend these points to fuel various Inner Force features.
You start knowing three such features: Iron Strike, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Inner Force features as you gain levels in this class. When you spend a Force Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Some of the Force Techniques require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Force save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Iron Strike.Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can choose to spend 1 Force point and add a Martial Arts die to the damage roll.If you have advantage over a creature, you can decide to sacrifice it to perform an Iron Strike without having to spend Force points. The additional damage is of the same type as your unarmed attacks.
Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Force point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If at the end of Patient Defense no one has attacked you, then you may use your reaction to make unarmed attack against a creature within your unarmed reach.
Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Force point to take both the Disengage and Dash actions as a Bonus Action, and your step is so light that for the turn you can run through the air.
2nd: Unarmored Movement
Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Ascetic levels, as shown in the Unarmed table. Additionally, while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you can take the Dash or Disengage actionas as a bonus action on your turn. When you use one of this actions your jump distance is doubled.
3rd: Monk Subclass
You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Shadow, Elementalist, or Psionic. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description. A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at 3rd level and again at 6th, 10th, and 17th Monk levels.
4th: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement or another feat of your choice for which you qualify, and again at 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
4th: Slow Fall
You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.
5th: Extra Attack
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
5th: Stunning Strike
When you hit a creature with Iron Strike feature, you can attempt a Stunning Strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the start of your next turn. You cannot use this feature in combination with another unarmed techniques.
6th: Assimilation
You can assimilate one simple weapon with magical properties into your body and use its magical properties with your unarmed attacks. A small tattoo that resembles the item absorbed appears on the skin of your arm.
The absorbed item is undetectable by normal means, although the effect is detectable via Detect Magic. The item can be discharged as an action and the weapon is automatically equipped. You must be capable of holding the weapon or it falls to your feet (such as if you had no hands free). If you are unconscious or dead the assimilated weapon automatically separates from you.
This feature can only be used with unarmed attacks and cannot be added to other items that enhance unarmed attacks.
7th: Evasion
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail. You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.
9th: Acrobatic Movement
While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement. If you end your turn in a vertical surface or on a liquid surface you can use your bonus action to hold your position and not fall until the end of your next turn.
10th: Body Cultivation
Your body and mind are so trained that you are now proficient in Constitution saving throws, and have advantage in saving throws against the Charmed, Frightened and Poisoned conditions. Additionally, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you Exhaustion.
11th: Flurry of Blows
Your Martial Arts feature now confers two extra Quick Strike Strikes rather than one. If you spend 1 force point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make the Flurry of Blow as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
13th: Harmony
Your physical and mental discipline, and your mastery of the Inner Force grant you proficiency in all saving throws. Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Force Point reroll it and take the second result.
15th: Patient Resistance
When you have Patient Defense active and a creature that can be seen hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your monk level.
18th: Flurry of Iron Strikes
Your unarmed attacks have never been more powerful. Now Iron Strike is no longer limited to once per turn, but that is only if you sacrifice advantage to execute it.
Enlightenment
Through your Inner Force and your physical and mental discipline, your being has achieved enlightenment. You raise two ability scores of your choice and increase them by 2. The maximum for those scores is now 30. Additionally, each time you roll for initiative, you recover a number of Force points equal to your wisdom modifier.
Even if you only got dash as a BA, and could use the point to get both would be ok middle ground. I feel flurry of blows still warrants a point to use it.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I just hope they properly bring the monk up before release . larian did a better job in bg3 with tavern brawler along with open hands extra damage you can actually do a reasonable amount, more then 5e monk can anyway . monk is still bad out of combat but
in bg3 they made it less so, by allowing monk options in the dialogue. knowing that you are M.A.D and would fail most rolls.
I read that the monk in BG3 is yes improved, but still remains the hardest class to build and compared to other classes it struggles. Defined as a class for a small circle of hardcore players.
The thing with BG3's Monk is that a lot of the additions are meant to keep up with other martials in a game that showers you with loot well above the usual power curve of 5e, such that you're getting legendary-tier equipment by Level 12 without attunement limitations.
However, because BG3 is built for people who want to feel special by minmaxing and munchkinning, a pure Monk is very low-tier because most of its features aren't buffed directly but rather made more accessible for multiclassing. In fact, a STR-focused Fighter who takes one single level in Monk and BG3's Tavern Brawler feat will do more damage with unarmed strikes than a 12th-level Monk will ever be able to.
(Not that it matters, because late-game BG3 is all about save-scumming until you get initiative so you can shove the enemies into holes instead of enemies shoving you into holes. Which again disadvantages Monks.)
Almost everything you're saying here is what you decided is true. The game is not built for "people who want to feel special my minmaxing". Your hate boner for optimization and good class design is showing. If a multi-classed character in the game can outdo a pure monk that is only more of a statement on the base monk being poorly designed. Also what version of BG3 are you playing if all you do is save-scum and push things into holes? Also Monks don't benefit from most forms of loot in DnD anyways so the point that the game is trying to compensate for an overabundance of them in BG3 makes so sense.
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/disciplna points already a big enough sacrifice?
IMO: the solution is not to remove the BA cost, but to remove the ki/DP cost for the 3 main choices: BA Attack, PD, SotW* (I mean, BA Attack doesn't have a ki/DP cost, but my point is that those 3 things should only cost your Bonus Action and not some other resource)
How you use your BA is indicating what "mode" you are in for that turn. Are you in offensive mode (BA Attack), defensive mode (PD), or mobility mode (SotW)? It dictates a tactical choice, and its only cost should be your Bonus Action.
(* though, you could make SotW be dash OR disengage as your bonus action, with it costing ki/DP when you want to do BOTH as your bonus action)
And: Nick would allow you to add an extra Attack Action (total of 2 before 5th level, total of 3 at 5th level or higher) attack without giving up that Bonus Action, giving you more offense even when you've given your BA to PD or SotW. And when you combine Nick with "Bonus Action attack", that gets you a total of 3 unarmed strikes at 1st-4th levels, or 4 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later ... and when you add Nick + FoB, that gets you a total of 4 unarmed strikes at 2nd-4th levels, or 5 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later. It's just that one of those attacks wont do attribute mod damage, just the martial arts die damage.
I fully agree with this. The three main abilities should not cost any kind of points. It should just be a bonus action like the Rouge’s cunning action. These are after all The abilities that make a monk a monk. Personally, I think they should get rid of points all together or only have them power the subclass abilities but that’s just me. I also think that they should simply allow the monk to use dex when it comes to all unarmed strike based abilities like shove and grapple because it is a really simple fix. The problem is that if they did these things it would pretty much make the open hand entirely irrelevant, but in the same breath there is nothing wrong with that as it leaves room for something else.
According to many, the consumption of ki/discipline points is an important part of the monk's design; it is a way to distinguish the monk from the fighter and the barbarian. If you take this characteristic away from the monk, you risk making it a fighter. The problem is not the use of resources per se, but the unchecked consumption, development, and synergy among these key features of the monk during its level growth.
I just hope they properly bring the monk up before release . larian did a better job in bg3 with tavern brawler along with open hands extra damage you can actually do a reasonable amount, more then 5e monk can anyway . monk is still bad out of combat but
in bg3 they made it less so, by allowing monk options in the dialogue. knowing that you are M.A.D and would fail most rolls.
I read that the monk in BG3 is yes improved, but still remains the hardest class to build and compared to other classes it struggles. Defined as a class for a small circle of hardcore players.
The thing with BG3's Monk is that a lot of the additions are meant to keep up with other martials in a game that showers you with loot well above the usual power curve of 5e, such that you're getting legendary-tier equipment by Level 12 without attunement limitations.
However, because BG3 is built for people who want to feel special by minmaxing and munchkinning, a pure Monk is very low-tier because most of its features aren't buffed directly but rather made more accessible for multiclassing. In fact, a STR-focused Fighter who takes one single level in Monk and BG3's Tavern Brawler feat will do more damage with unarmed strikes than a 12th-level Monk will ever be able to.
(Not that it matters, because late-game BG3 is all about save-scumming until you get initiative so you can shove the enemies into holes instead of enemies shoving you into holes. Which again disadvantages Monks.)
Almost everything you're saying here is what you decided is true. The game is not built for "people who want to feel special my minmaxing". Your hate boner for optimization and good class design is showing. If a multi-classed character in the game can outdo a pure monk that is only more of a statement on the base monk being poorly designed. Also what version of BG3 are you playing if all you do is save-scum and push things into holes? Also Monks don't benefit from most forms of loot in DnD anyways so the point that the game is trying to compensate for an overabundance of them in BG3 makes so sense.
That's why I think the monk should be redesigned into an eco-sustainable class in terms of resources. One example is this solution:
1st. MARTIAL ARTS - Quick Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you use a force point during your turn, you can decide to move your Bonus Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action. It is still possible to make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd. (Replaces FoB) -Iron Strike. Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can choose to spend 1 Force point and add a Martial Arts die to the damage roll. If you have advantage over a creature, you can decide to sacrifice it to perform an Iron Strike without having to spend Force points. The additional damage is of the same type as your unarmed attacks.
2nd. Unarmored Movement. [...] Additionally, while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you can take the Dash or Disengage actionas as a bonus action on your turn. When you use one of this actions your jump distance is doubled.
5th. Stunning Strike. When you hit a creature with Iron Strike feature, you can attempt a Stunning Strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn. You cannot use this feature in combination with another unarmed techniques.
11h. Flurry of Blows. Your Martial Arts feature now confers two extra Quick Strike Strikes rather than one. If you perform an action that uses 1 or more force points that is not an attack action, you can make the Flurry of Blow as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
18th. Flurry of Iron Strikes. Your unarmed attacks have never been more powerful. Now Iron Strike is no longer limited to once per turn, but that is only if you sacrifice advantage to execute it.
So looking at the direction this goes, the idea would be allow to use (only) BA (no points) to make one of the actions, then if using 1 point use an improved version. I.e. FoB is just an improved version of the MA attack, SotW an improved version of Dash/Dodge, etc.
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/discipline points already a big enough sacrifice?
This is an important point. It's a design flaw in my opinion to sacrifice half your damage to use the basic features that help make a monk be mobile. Other classes that have options to improve their mobility (rogue with Cunning action, paladin with a mount, or spellcaster with the fly spell, eagle barbarian) do not require any sacrifice in damage output to use these features. It only gets worse in tier 3 and 4 because monks lack the AC and hit points to survive in melee so the strategy often becomes attack twice and run away which does not cut it at these levels. Regardless if people agree with this or not, it is a design feature which is unique to the monk and just feels bad. Under the new UA rules a monks bonus action eventually does more damage than the Attack Action (if the monk is using weapons) and that just seems wrong.
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/discipline points already a big enough sacrifice?
This is an important point. It's a design flaw in my opinion to sacrifice half your damage to use the basic features that help make a monk be mobile. Other classes that have options to improve their mobility (rogue with Cunning action, paladin with a mount, or spellcaster with the fly spell, eagle barbarian) do not require any sacrifice in damage output to use these features.
That's not entirely true, but they typically sacrifice ~20% damage to do so, while the monk sacrifices 50% which is just way too much.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In tier 1, using dodge with your action and flurry of blows with your bonus action is clearly superior to using patient defense -- both cost an action and a bonus action, the one gets you a single weapon or unarmed attack (average 8), the other gets you two unarmed attacks (average 13). I'm not sure that's a problem, patient defense is a pretty bad option at least until tier 2.
Dodge is the option against multiple enemies and you can put distance. It's like focusing on evading launching some punches and kicks, which in game mechanics would be the lesser number of attacks. It fits well with the style we see on MA movies when fighting against multiple foes.
So Flurry of blows does not currently push monk above baseline at higher levels.
Baseline is typically considered things like Warlock EB+AB+Hex. At level 5 in One dnd assuming a 60% chance to hit that is around 15 DPR, For monk at this level that is 21.3, but at level 11 this changes to 26.66 For Warlock and changes to 26.3 for Monks. So monks end up under baseline in the T3 and T4 of play even IF they use FoB.
I read that the monk in BG3 is yes improved, but still remains the hardest class to build and compared to other classes it struggles. Defined as a class for a small circle of hardcore players.
I would not be surprised by this. I will even say that if this monk goes through, as I showed T1 T2 are fine for damage. So using multi classing to keep up with T3 play is probably the way most will go.
It is not at all clear that that's well over the usual power curve of 5e as actually played. One of the core problems with monks is less magic item support than other martials, so power level relative to other martials varies with the loot level of the game (and seems tuned for loot levels well below the usual power curve of 5e; a die type upgrade every tier on unarmed attacks in no way keeps up with average magic weapon progression).
In my opinion, the monk should have something like NICK directly in the Martial Arts - Extra Bonus Attack feature. It could be said that NICK will be of obligation to all classes built to fight with two weapons. The monk being a class that has bonus attacks as its base, it is important for it to catch up.
Just give them more unarmed strikes per flurry of blows at certain levels.
It would not solve the problem, what I want is to be able to use SotW or PD with the bonus unarmed attacks. This choice of each turn having to sacrifice attacks only for PD, SotW or Shadow Step, and many other features that require sacrificing the bonus action... is always a painful choice. Isn't sacrificing ki/discipline points already a big enough sacrifice?
IMO: the solution is not to remove the BA cost, but to remove the ki/DP cost for the 3 main choices: BA Attack, PD, SotW*
(I mean, BA Attack doesn't have a ki/DP cost, but my point is that those 3 things should only cost your Bonus Action and not some other resource)
How you use your BA is indicating what "mode" you are in for that turn. Are you in offensive mode (BA Attack), defensive mode (PD), or mobility mode (SotW)? It dictates a tactical choice, and its only cost should be your Bonus Action.
(* though, you could make SotW be dash OR disengage as your bonus action, with it costing ki/DP when you want to do BOTH as your bonus action)
And: Nick would allow you to add an extra Attack Action (total of 2 before 5th level, total of 3 at 5th level or higher) attack without giving up that Bonus Action, giving you more offense even when you've given your BA to PD or SotW. And when you combine Nick with "Bonus Action attack", that gets you a total of 3 unarmed strikes at 1st-4th levels, or 4 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later ... and when you add Nick + FoB, that gets you a total of 4 unarmed strikes at 2nd-4th levels, or 5 unarmed strikes at 5th level or later. It's just that one of those attacks wont do attribute mod damage, just the martial arts die damage.
I fully agree with this. The three main abilities should not cost any kind of points. It should just be a bonus action like the Rouge’s cunning action. These are after all The abilities that make a monk a monk. Personally, I think they should get rid of points all together or only have them power the subclass abilities but that’s just me.
I also think that they should simply allow the monk to use dex when it comes to all unarmed strike based abilities like shove and grapple because it is a really simple fix. The problem is that if they did these things it would pretty much make the open hand entirely irrelevant, but in the same breath there is nothing wrong with that as it leaves room for something else.
(to give credit where credit is due: I'm pretty sure I got it from Haravikk )
I designed a monk class starting from the 1dnd class. I changed many things and tried to solve many problems, among them the excessive consumption of discipline points and the lack of magic items. I opted for a low consumption solution rather than a way to recharge (Eco monk). One point I definitely wanted to have was for unarmored movement to have disengage and dash as bonus actions without resource consumption and a way to make the bonus unarmed attack usable even when using these movement features. I think I also solved the MAD class problem. I may still not be convinced about the Enlightenment feature, but in general I think I have done a very good job.
LINK: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/vAXY9tWywy3t
1st: Martial Arts
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons. You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two Handed property.
Martial Arts Die. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This die changes as you gain Monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
Quick Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you use a force point during your turn, you can decide to move your Bonus Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action. It is still possible to make this extra attack only once per turn.
1st: Unarmored Defense
While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Constitution or Wisdom modifiers.
1st: Unarmed Technique
Your training without weapons allows you to learn two Unarmed Techniques, and use them with your unarmed strikes. You cannot repeat the same Technique on the same creature in the same turn. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can practice others Unarmed Techniques and change the kinds of Unarmed Technique you chose. When you reach certain levels in this class, you gain the ability to use more kinds of Unarmed Techniques, as shown in the Unarmed Techniques column of the Monk table.
List of the Unarmed Techniques
Some of the Unarmed Techniques require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects.. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Techniques save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity or your Wisdom modifier
ADDLE. When you hit a creature with this technique, it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or it can’t take Reactions until the end of your next turn. If used in combination with Iron strike the affected creature automatically fails the constitution saving throw.
BLOCKING. When a creature hits you with an attack, as a reaction you can add your proficiency bonus to your AC for that attack, potentially causing the attack to miss you.
COUNTER-STRIKE. When you have active Patient Defense and a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against it. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through Patient Resistance, you can still make a Conter-Strike using the same reaction used to reduce the damage.
DUBLE-STRIKE. When you hit a creature with this technique, you can make an attack roll against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach. On a hit, the second creature takes your Martial Arts Die damage, but don’t add your ability modifier to that damage, unless that modifier is negative. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
DEFLECT-MISSILES. You can use your Reaction to deflect ranged attacks against you that missed, and redirect the attack toward another creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through Patient Resistance, you can still deflect the missile using the same reaction used to reduce the damage.
DISARM. If you hit a creature with this technique, you can force the creature to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature drop the chosen object. The object lands at its feet.
DRAIN. When you hit a creature with this technique, you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to half the damage that you provoked. If you do this, the damage becomes necrotic.
GRAPPLER. When you try to grapple, you can choose to use Acrobatics instead of Athletics check.
PUSH. If you hit a creature with your technique, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you if it is no more than one size larger than you. If used in combination with Iron Strike, the affected creature will be pushed 5 feet more and the size no longer affects the technique.
SAP. If you hit a creature with this technique, that creature has Disadvantage on its next attack roll before the start of your next turn.
SLOW. If you hit a creature with this technique and deal damage to the creature, you can reduce its Speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. If used in combination with Iron Strike, the affected creature Speed will be reduce by 20 feet.
SWEEP. If you hit a creature with this technique, you can force the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature has the Prone condition.
VEX. If you hit a creature with this technique and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn.
2nd: Inner Force
Your self-discipline and martial training allow you to harness a well of extraordinary energy within yourself. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of Force Points. Your Monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Force Points column of the Monk table. You can spend these points to fuel various Inner Force features.
You start knowing three such features: Iron Strike, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more Inner Force features as you gain levels in this class. When you spend a Force Point, it is unavailable until you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, at the end of which you regain all your expended points. Some of the Force Techniques require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature’s effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Force save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Iron Strike. Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can choose to spend 1 Force point and add a Martial Arts die to the damage roll. If you have advantage over a creature, you can decide to sacrifice it to perform an Iron Strike without having to spend Force points. The additional damage is of the same type as your unarmed attacks.
Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Force point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If at the end of Patient Defense no one has attacked you, then you may use your reaction to make unarmed attack against a creature within your unarmed reach.
Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Force point to take both the Disengage and Dash actions as a Bonus Action, and your step is so light that for the turn you can run through the air.
2nd: Unarmored Movement
Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Ascetic levels, as shown in the Unarmed table. Additionally, while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you can take the Dash or Disengage actionas as a bonus action on your turn. When you use one of this actions your jump distance is doubled.
3rd: Monk Subclass
You gain a Monk subclass of your choice: Shadow, Elementalist, or Psionic. Subclasses are detailed after this class’s description. A subclass is a specialization that grants you special abilities at 3rd level and again at 6th, 10th, and 17th Monk levels.
4th: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement or another feat of your choice for which you qualify, and again at 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
4th: Slow Fall
You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any damage you take from the fall by an amount equal to five times your Monk level.
5th: Extra Attack
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
5th: Stunning Strike
When you hit a creature with Iron Strike feature, you can attempt a Stunning Strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the start of your next turn. You cannot use this feature in combination with another unarmed techniques.
6th: Assimilation
You can assimilate one simple weapon with magical properties into your body and use its magical properties with your unarmed attacks. A small tattoo that resembles the item absorbed appears on the skin of your arm.
The absorbed item is undetectable by normal means, although the effect is detectable via Detect Magic. The item can be discharged as an action and the weapon is automatically equipped. You must be capable of holding the weapon or it falls to your feet (such as if you had no hands free). If you are unconscious or dead the assimilated weapon automatically separates from you.
7th: Evasion
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail. You don’t benefit from this feature if you have the Incapacitated condition.
9th: Acrobatic Movement
While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement. If you end your turn in a vertical surface or on a liquid surface you can use your bonus action to hold your position and not fall until the end of your next turn.
10th: Body Cultivation
Your body and mind are so trained that you are now proficient in Constitution saving throws, and have advantage in saving throws against the Charmed, Frightened and Poisoned conditions. Additionally, forgoing food and drink doesn’t give you Exhaustion.
11th: Flurry of Blows
Your Martial Arts feature now confers two extra Quick Strike Strikes rather than one. If you spend 1 force point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make the Flurry of Blow as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
13th: Harmony
Your physical and mental discipline, and your mastery of the Inner Force grant you proficiency in all saving throws. Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 Force Point reroll it and take the second result.
15th: Patient Resistance
When you have Patient Defense active and a creature that can be seen hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your monk level.
18th: Flurry of Iron Strikes
Your unarmed attacks have never been more powerful. Now Iron Strike is no longer limited to once per turn, but that is only if you sacrifice advantage to execute it.
Enlightenment
Through your Inner Force and your physical and mental discipline, your being has achieved enlightenment. You raise two ability scores of your choice and increase them by 2. The maximum for those scores is now 30. Additionally, each time you roll for initiative, you recover a number of Force points equal to your wisdom modifier.
Even if you only got dash as a BA, and could use the point to get both would be ok middle ground. I feel flurry of blows still warrants a point to use it.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Almost everything you're saying here is what you decided is true. The game is not built for "people who want to feel special my minmaxing". Your hate boner for optimization and good class design is showing. If a multi-classed character in the game can outdo a pure monk that is only more of a statement on the base monk being poorly designed. Also what version of BG3 are you playing if all you do is save-scum and push things into holes? Also Monks don't benefit from most forms of loot in DnD anyways so the point that the game is trying to compensate for an overabundance of them in BG3 makes so sense.
According to many, the consumption of ki/discipline points is an important part of the monk's design; it is a way to distinguish the monk from the fighter and the barbarian. If you take this characteristic away from the monk, you risk making it a fighter. The problem is not the use of resources per se, but the unchecked consumption, development, and synergy among these key features of the monk during its level growth.
That's why I think the monk should be redesigned into an eco-sustainable class in terms of resources. One example is this solution:
1st. MARTIAL ARTS - Quick Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you use a force point during your turn, you can decide to move your Bonus Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action. It is still possible to make this extra attack only once per turn.
2nd. (Replaces FoB) - Iron Strike. Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike, you can choose to spend 1 Force point and add a Martial Arts die to the damage roll. If you have advantage over a creature, you can decide to sacrifice it to perform an Iron Strike without having to spend Force points. The additional damage is of the same type as your unarmed attacks.
2nd. Unarmored Movement. [...] Additionally, while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you can take the Dash or Disengage actionas as a bonus action on your turn. When you use one of this actions your jump distance is doubled.
5th. Stunning Strike. When you hit a creature with Iron Strike feature, you can attempt a Stunning Strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or have the Stunned condition until the end of your next turn. You cannot use this feature in combination with another unarmed techniques.
11h. Flurry of Blows. Your Martial Arts feature now confers two extra Quick Strike Strikes rather than one. If you perform an action that uses 1 or more force points that is not an attack action, you can make the Flurry of Blow as a bonus action before the end of the turn.
18th. Flurry of Iron Strikes. Your unarmed attacks have never been more powerful. Now Iron Strike is no longer limited to once per turn, but that is only if you sacrifice advantage to execute it.
So looking at the direction this goes, the idea would be allow to use (only) BA (no points) to make one of the actions, then if using 1 point use an improved version. I.e. FoB is just an improved version of the MA attack, SotW an improved version of Dash/Dodge, etc.
This is an important point. It's a design flaw in my opinion to sacrifice half your damage to use the basic features that help make a monk be mobile. Other classes that have options to improve their mobility (rogue with Cunning action, paladin with a mount, or spellcaster with the fly spell, eagle barbarian) do not require any sacrifice in damage output to use these features. It only gets worse in tier 3 and 4 because monks lack the AC and hit points to survive in melee so the strategy often becomes attack twice and run away which does not cut it at these levels. Regardless if people agree with this or not, it is a design feature which is unique to the monk and just feels bad. Under the new UA rules a monks bonus action eventually does more damage than the Attack Action (if the monk is using weapons) and that just seems wrong.
And when they run out of ki/discipline?
That's not entirely true, but they typically sacrifice ~20% damage to do so, while the monk sacrifices 50% which is just way too much.