It's probably not the best mechanic, but if it's just an additional rider as part of Martial Arts then is it really harming anything? The way I think of it is if you are going to make 4 attacks anyway (5th level+ with FoB) why not have, similar to weapon masteries but scaling, riders that if you hit the same target twice on your turn you can do A (maybe A is add a MA die in damage), if you hit the same target three times you can do A or B, if you hit four you can do A, B, or C. Not sure what A, B, or C should be, but I'm sure someone can come up with variations. It's just an add-on, like a weapon mastery where if you hit you can push or topple or nick, etc.. You are not aiming to do A, B, or C (calling the shot), but it just happens, if you want, when you hit the appropriate number of times.
A way back, when the "Next Evolution" of D&D was announced I had a thread about the monk where I mentioned an idea where if a monk got a critical hit, they regained 1 Ki point as they draw out the energy of Ki from their opponent. Some people didn't like it as it isn't likely to happen. But it's not like you are building the class around it, lose another class feature to make room for it, or have to balance anything around it. It would just be something that happens, as part of the monk Ki (UA6 Martial Discipline) ability. Again, maybe not the best mechanic, but it's just a rider effect.
I did write a monk subclass on the monk thread, but since it had no response, I assumed it was not something people would want to play.
The base concept was to deal "speed damage" on your enemies, your unarmed strikes dealt cold damage and on each hit it would apply a 'slow' effect equal to your unarmored movement bonus, and if the creature's speed was reduced to 0, then it got incapacitated, no save, but if it received any damage that was not cold damage the incapacitated condition stopped.
People seem to be afraid of giving the monk something powerful, but with Stunning Strike being forgettable now and with Hand being headed to the dumpster, being a bit positive about new additions may not be too much of a stretch. On the other hand, lowering expectatives might be for the best though, it will all depend on who's in charge of any new revision of the monk...
People seem to be afraid of giving the monk something powerful, but with Stunning Strike being forgettable now and with Hand being headed to the dumpster, being a bit positive about new additions may not be too much of a stretch. On the other hand, lowering expectatives might be for the best though, it will all depend on who's in charge of any new revision of the monk...
Imo, it's more that people have unrealistic ideas about what a Monk should have. You'll note that in the current PHB Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues all lack any core class features that give their attacks riders to inflict a condition. Ergo Monks already have a powerful option that no other weapon focused class has anything comparable to. Yes, there's the issue of resource management and CON saves being highest on average, but as has been noted, this is a powerful condition. No, you can't spam Stunning Strikes and Flurry of Blows at the same time, but that would be seriously broken if you could, and as I outlined earlier imo if you're in a situation where you want SS, it's worth forgoing a fourth attack to focus on it.
There are some areas that monks struggle with, like magic items, but frankly the magic item distribution has been wonky since the start (have you seen how many special spellbooks there are for Wizards? compare that to the two or three class specific items other casters get), so that's less a flaw with the design of the class as it is of the magic item system, and one I'm sure they're hearing plenty of feedback on. Yes, +X unarmed weapons would be good for Monks, as would some kind of Monk-specific robe or something to give them a little more love in the area of armor, but honestly the biggest problem with the class itself imo is that people see the various Ki options and want to have a Dagwood sandwich of all of them at once, which seems to me to clearly not be how the class is meant to handle. My take is that FoB is the default, and you use the others only when they have sufficient value to forgo FoB for the turn. Could maybe use a little tuning on the resource refresh rate too, but the features themselves are solid when you take a step back and think about how to apply them, at least for me.
I am in a similar feeling for monk after all of this. Monks aren't bad per se, but they gobble their resources at a fairly constant rate. Either reduce it for some feature (which the subclasses did well with the duration effects) or give some other option outside of a short rest. Heightened Metabolism is a good idea, I would prefer it earlier, and usable in combat, even if it was weaker.
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People seem to be afraid of giving the monk something powerful, but with Stunning Strike being forgettable now and with Hand being headed to the dumpster, being a bit positive about new additions may not be too much of a stretch. On the other hand, lowering expectatives might be for the best though, it will all depend on who's in charge of any new revision of the monk...
Imo, it's more that people have unrealistic ideas about what a Monk should have. You'll note that in the current PHB Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues all lack any core class features that give their attacks riders to inflict a condition. Ergo Monks already have a powerful option that no other weapon focused class has anything comparable to. Yes, there's the issue of resource management and CON saves being highest on average, but as has been noted, this is a powerful condition. No, you can't spam Stunning Strikes and Flurry of Blows at the same time, but that would be seriously broken if you could, and as I outlined earlier imo if you're in a situation where you want SS, it's worth forgoing a fourth attack to focus on it.
There are some areas that monks struggle with, like magic items, but frankly the magic item distribution has been wonky since the start (have you seen how many special spellbooks there are for Wizards? compare that to the two or three class specific items other casters get), so that's less a flaw with the design of the class as it is of the magic item system, and one I'm sure they're hearing plenty of feedback on. Yes, +X unarmed weapons would be good for Monks, as would some kind of Monk-specific robe or something to give them a little more love in the area of armor, but honestly the biggest problem with the class itself imo is that people see the various Ki options and want to have a Dagwood sandwich of all of them at once, which seems to me to clearly not be how the class is meant to handle. My take is that FoB is the default, and you use the others only when they have sufficient value to forgo FoB for the turn. Could maybe use a little tuning on the resource refresh rate too, but the features themselves are solid when you take a step back and think about how to apply them, at least for me.
Those books for wizards each represent a different school of magic. There is also a shard for each plane for sorcerers. Monks don’t have enough variance between subclasses to need a different magic item for each subclass. They have the dragonhide belt that gives a +1,+2, or +3 to you monk save DC and there are two items that and a +1 to your unarmed strikes. Eldritch claw tattoo and insignia of claws. The later is in ToD so I didn’t even know it existed until a year ago. As far as I know both lack a +2 and +3 version which is a problem, but not as wonky as you tried to make it seem. Honestly at the start most magic items were usable by multiple casters. Warlock and pact rod is the only one I can think of that was limited to one class.
Cloak of protection, ring of protection, bracers of defense already exist to boost the monks AC. The problem isn’t magic items. It’s that you shouldn’t need magic items. Barbarians can use normal shields and armor if their unarmored defense isn’t enough. Monks need a better way to get AC at lower levels without losing all of their features.
Every other martial class uses magic weapons to increase their damage. Monks can use them, but their damage increases automatically and gain their ability to bypass resistance to non magical weapons. If you look at the early art for 5e monk it shows a monk using a shortsword. I remember art for 3e monk using a quarterstaff. I think they expected players who want to optimize to use a weapon. Especially at low levels. Quarterstaff wielded in two hands is easily the optimal level 1 weapon for monk in 5e. Introduction of weapon properties is going to mix that up in 5eR. For any class with a good bonus action sadly Nick will be the only property worth looking at.
Imo, it's more that people have unrealistic ideas about what a Monk should have. You'll note that in the current PHB Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues all lack any core class features that give their attacks riders to inflict a condition. Ergo Monks already have a powerful option that no other weapon focused class has anything comparable to. Yes, there's the issue of resource management and CON saves being highest on average, but as has been noted, this is a powerful condition. No, you can't spam Stunning Strikes and Flurry of Blows at the same time, but that would be seriously broken if you could, and as I outlined earlier imo if you're in a situation where you want SS, it's worth forgoing a fourth attack to focus on it.
There are some areas that monks struggle with, like magic items, but frankly the magic item distribution has been wonky since the start (have you seen how many special spellbooks there are for Wizards? compare that to the two or three class specific items other casters get), so that's less a flaw with the design of the class as it is of the magic item system, and one I'm sure they're hearing plenty of feedback on. Yes, +X unarmed weapons would be good for Monks, as would some kind of Monk-specific robe or something to give them a little more love in the area of armor, but honestly the biggest problem with the class itself imo is that people see the various Ki options and want to have a Dagwood sandwich of all of them at once, which seems to me to clearly not be how the class is meant to handle. My take is that FoB is the default, and you use the others only when they have sufficient value to forgo FoB for the turn. Could maybe use a little tuning on the resource refresh rate too, but the features themselves are solid when you take a step back and think about how to apply them, at least for me.
Well, if I'm not playing a Wis-focused monk, then I don't try Stunning Strike (which goes back to my idea of monk subclasses defining the playstyle) unless I want to trigger Ki-Fueled Strike; but FoB has a problem of its own, which is it's dependance on the Attack action, even if it is the default offensive option, it forces the monk to end their attacks in melee unless they somehow extend the unarmed strikes' reach. I did like what Baldur's Gate did, which was making FoB a completely independant bonus action, and this can have some positive effects on the 5e subclasses (ESPECIALLY Open Hand), making room to do something else as a main action (yes, I know you can just invert the order and attack twice and then SoW or PD, but since some subclasses improve your FoB, you want it accessible at all times).
Imo, it's more that people have unrealistic ideas about what a Monk should have. You'll note that in the current PHB Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues all lack any core class features that give their attacks riders to inflict a condition. Ergo Monks already have a powerful option that no other weapon focused class has anything comparable to. Yes, there's the issue of resource management and CON saves being highest on average, but as has been noted, this is a powerful condition. No, you can't spam Stunning Strikes and Flurry of Blows at the same time, but that would be seriously broken if you could, and as I outlined earlier imo if you're in a situation where you want SS, it's worth forgoing a fourth attack to focus on it.
There are some areas that monks struggle with, like magic items, but frankly the magic item distribution has been wonky since the start (have you seen how many special spellbooks there are for Wizards? compare that to the two or three class specific items other casters get), so that's less a flaw with the design of the class as it is of the magic item system, and one I'm sure they're hearing plenty of feedback on. Yes, +X unarmed weapons would be good for Monks, as would some kind of Monk-specific robe or something to give them a little more love in the area of armor, but honestly the biggest problem with the class itself imo is that people see the various Ki options and want to have a Dagwood sandwich of all of them at once, which seems to me to clearly not be how the class is meant to handle. My take is that FoB is the default, and you use the others only when they have sufficient value to forgo FoB for the turn. Could maybe use a little tuning on the resource refresh rate too, but the features themselves are solid when you take a step back and think about how to apply them, at least for me.
Well, if I'm not playing a Wis-focused monk, then I don't try Stunning Strike (which goes back to my idea of monk subclasses defining the playstyle) unless I want to trigger Ki-Fueled Strike; but FoB has a problem of its own, which is it's dependance on the Attack action, even if it is the default offensive option, it forces the monk to end their attacks in melee unless they somehow extend the unarmed strikes' reach. I did like what Baldur's Gate did, which was making FoB a completely independant bonus action, and this can have some positive effects on the 5e subclasses (ESPECIALLY Open Hand), making room to do something else as a main action (yes, I know you can just invert the order and attack twice and then SoW or PD, but since some subclasses improve your FoB, you want it accessible at all times).
Regarding your bit about FoB, it's not a flaw that they need to take the Attack Action to make Bonus Action Attacks, it's a deliberate design point. About the only exception to this that I can find is an Eldritch Knight feature, and they can only do it after casting a cantrip and way later a spell, so in practical terms it's still almost always going to mean the player has made some kind of attack first. And ending their turn in melee if they use FoB is also the point; you have the choice between using your bonus action to fall back or to double down on damage.
Regarding "WIS Monks", I'm not exactly sure why you wouldn't be investing points in WIS unless you're looking to do some self imposed challenge; I've repeatedly crunched the numbers and with Point-Buy you can hit 16 DEX and 16 WIS with 12 CON without dumping a stat below 10, assuming you use the wildcard starting ASI rules. They could maybe use an extra ASI as they level, but for how low-cost Stunning Strike is, even just the +3 mod plus prof isn't bad. Plus the save for that one does kinda need to be something that's not super hard for enemies to beat, or Monks would just lock down every boss without Stun immunity (currently 87 creatures in the whole game). Like I said, one of the big complaints I see for Monks is that they're not able to constantly use their whole tool kit at once, and that just seems like a really unrealistic expectation to have in the first place. If you want to zip in and out, save your bonus action for it or take the Mobile feat.
Regarding "WIS Monks", I'm not exactly sure why you wouldn't be investing points in WIS unless you're looking to do some self imposed challenge; I've repeatedly crunched the numbers and with Point-Buy you can hit 16 DEX and 16 WIS with 12 CON without dumping a stat below 10
In other words, all the monks are exactly the same. I still see a problem for character creation if depends on dual ability score for only the base class, without even thinking on multi-class, it carry the ballast.
Monk and Barbarian are the perfect classes to compare to pinpoint the flaws of the Monk. This is because in many ways in 5e they seem to come from similar design concepts mechanically. 1st level they both gain Unarmored defense, but the barbarian version is far superior. The Barbarian’s Unarmored Defense and Con to the normal calculation and allows the use of a shield. This is further improved because of the synergy it brings with Rage. Con increases you hp and then Rage practically doubles it against the primary source of damage. Rage also gives a slight boost to damage. Looking at the monks Unarmored Defense which adds Wis to the normal AC calculation their is no 1st level synergies. At level 1 you only need Wisdom for the Unarmored defense. To make matters worse as a Barbarian you have the option of wear light or medium armor forgoing Unarmored Defense, but a Monk has no choice. Martial arts is a substantial boost to damage at Level 1, but it requires you do not wear armor. So instead of a synergy between your first level features you get a forced use of it playing a Monk. Also since the Monks Martial Arts damage add is far superior to the Barbarians Rage’s damage add the designers decided that Monks should receive less hp getting a d8 while Barbarians get a d12. The fix is to either allow monks to wear armor by allowing martial arts to work in light or maybe even medium armor or increase Monk unarmored defense by a small amount. I would say adding half proficiency bonus would account for the lack of a shield and early level synergies.
2nd level Barbarian gains Reckless attack and Danger sense while Monk gets Ki/DP and Unarmored movement. Again the Monk gains abilities that require it not to wear armor. Both reckless attack and danger sense would work even if the Barbarian put on heavy armor (most wouldn’t because they would lose rage). So the Barbarian wins this level as well. FoB is great and if it was the only ability that required points to use I would give this level to monks, but instead they get two more abilities tied to Ki/DP. SotW and PD. Both are good, but in combat both also ruin the Monks MA action economy. The easiest fix is to allow the monk to take one unarmed strike as part of SotW and PD.
5th Level Both get extra attack. Extra Attack has a synergy with both Rage and Reckless Attack. It does nothing for monk martial arts, or Ki/DP. Monks get the superior feature at this level Stunning Strike. Barbarians only get fast movement. Stunning strike sadly uses the same resource as all the other monk abilities, but finally there is a reason other than Unarmored defense to increase you Wis. Moving into 5eR stunning strike will be once per turn meaning it will no longer have synergy with the additional attacks provided by MA and FoB.
I would keep going but this is already long enough and paints a picture of the lack of synergy in the Monk compared to the Barbarian. Wisdom needs to offer more synergy or Monk save DC needs to be based off their attacking stat like Battle Master Fighter. I would prefer better use of Wisdom, but either works as a fix.
Apologies if it's already been suggested but would giving Unarmed Attacks the Light trait (and Nick Mastery) and removing the Martial Arts Bonus Action attack help? Instead Martial Arts would allow Two-Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Attacks. That way, from level 1, the monk can:
Attack Action (weapon or Martial Arts)
Offhand Attack (no action cost)
Bonus Action: FoB, SotW, PD (with Ki/DP cost)
Same number of attacks but shifting one from Bonus Action to free offhand attack. This would reduce the damage loss of using the Bonus Action on something other than FoB.
I still think monks suffer from Ki/DP scarcity at low levels. I like the idea of making SotW/FoB/PD Stances costing a Ki/DP to enter for 1 min, then you can use that Bonus Action ability without Ki/DP cost until you want to change Stance. Later level class/Subclass features could improve the Stances or add new ones.
EDIT: Realising that's same damage output compared to 5e PHB but a net loss of an offhand Light weapon attack under the playtest rules. Although as monks don't get Fighting Styles that would only be a loss of 1d4 (2) damage so...
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
As Martial Arts user, the whole fitness should affect. What about using the addition of Str and Dex for all the MA stuff? Unarmored defense Str + Dex + Wis. MA attack and damage Str + Dex. This also allows to set something different than high Dex/Wis and all the others at +0, giving more freedom for stats. More athletic monks. If we look at the monk features, they rarely (if any) is related to the use of Dex, so they would work the same using Str or a combo of Str/Dex. It also can compensate the damage at higher tiers, and the lack of magical items (even if you introduce them they usually will be more rare than a weapon). Some usage for the new backgrounds getting 3 +1 for Str, Dex and Wis for a balanced character. At low levels would be more glass cannon compared to others (with higher hit rate and fixed damage by stats) but this is compensated at higher levels as the monk gets mobility and resistances.
I still see the need to get access to Fighting Styles and Combat feats, and getting an extra feat at some level 5-9.
If we look at a character so enclosed like a Paladin, with its heavy armor and all that, well you can actually play a Dex Paladin, and if you focus on buff spells you can even have low Cha. Most usually have some options, but the monk. A Str monk is not playable, exchanging Wis by Int or Cha is barely playable, is attached too tight to the Dex/Wis, making all monks the same thing, based on agility and you'd also want to the Perception things because the Wis. Few options.
Wis for monk stuff, like DC and DP = Wis + monk level, granting those DP that currently lacks at low levels. You want that spiritual monk? put Str/Dex 14/14 and Wis 16, as you already have the +4 expected at level 4 for others, can increase Wis, if you increase more later, you have lesser attack/damage output, but great DC and more DP.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
As Martial Arts user, the whole fitness should affect. What about using the addition of Str and Dex for all the MA stuff? Unarmored defense Str + Dex + Wis. MA attack and damage Str + Dex. This also allows to set something different than high Dex/Wis and all the others at +0, giving more freedom for stats. More athletic monks. If we look at the monk features, they rarely (if any) is related to the use of Dex, so they would work the same using Str or a combo of Str/Dex. It also can compensate the damage at higher tiers, and the lack of magical items (even if you introduce them they usually will be more rare than a weapon). Some usage for the new backgrounds getting 3 +1 for Str, Dex and Wis for a balanced character. At low levels would be more glass cannon compared to others (with higher hit rate and fixed damage by stats) but this is compensated at higher levels as the monk gets mobility and resistances.
I still see the need to get access to Fighting Styles and Combat feats, and getting an extra feat at some level 5-9.
If we look at a character so enclosed like a Paladin, with its heavy armor and all that, well you can actually play a Dex Paladin, and if you focus on buff spells you can even have low Cha. Most usually have some options, but the monk. A Str monk is not playable, exchanging Wis by Int or Cha is barely playable, is attached too tight to the Dex/Wis, making all monks the same thing, based on agility and you'd also want to the Perception things because the Wis. Few options.
Wis for monk stuff, like DC and DP = Wis + monk level, granting those DP that currently lacks at low levels. You want that spiritual monk? put Str/Dex 14/14 and Wis 16, as you already have the +4 expected at level 4 for others, can increase Wis, if you increase more later, you have lesser attack/damage output, but great DC and more DP.
Until 5e Monks needed Str for damage. They were absolutely MAD. You would be recreating that MADness by adding STR into the calculations. It would also open Monk up to some crazy exploits with magic items.
I generally just dont think having Dex and Strength split up the way they currently are makes a whole lot of sense tbh. While Ryu would probably be a "strength monk" I cant really come up with any super agile characters/people who wouldnt also have a pretty high strength. Ideally Strength and Dex would interact in some other way than they currently do.
What do we imagine your typical low stre, high Dex monk build to look like?.. Jackie Chan in his prime? He was incredibly nimble, part of being so nimble was that he was infact also way above average strength, I mean the guy was shredded... I can certain say "well then put points into strength as well" but not only is that mechanically not super useful, its not encouraged for one of the primary dex classes, and I think most who people who make a monk probably imagine their character to be pretty physically fit, despite not being able to lift more than the dusty old wizard. I guess my point is that the way you get to a high Dex level in real life, is by having well developed muscles while maintaining a relatively low body mass.
I can quite easily imagine a low dex, high strength character.. your typical power lifter build..big, chunky, powerful.. But I guess I cant really imagine the other way around.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Sorry but cannot see it like a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler, no matter how many times is said. Barbarian gets martial weapons, and ARMOR, while ALL the monk features are around being unarmored. That’s another reason why if the monk want access to FS is absurd the need to get one level of fighter. And notice the Barbarian MA does not improves, opposite with what is supposed to be the character.
By that Ryu would be better just using a 2 handed axe and entering Rage mode.
The good thing is that mixing it opens a vast of possibilities, from the muscled to the agile and the technical/spiritual. And compensates many things that currently lacks.
Barbarian MA does improve because Rage damage improves. Barbarian unarmed damage starts out higher 1d8+STR+2 vs 1d6+DEX, and ends up basically equivalent: 1d8+STR+4 vs 1d12+DEX. Most Barbarians I have played with choose not to use armour , and I've never ever seen one using a shield (just because you can, doesn't mean you should) [Meanwhile tons of people want to let Monks use armour b/c Samurai and IRL war-monks used armour]. And the Beast Barbarian is even entirely built around unarmed attacks, all you need to do is ignore the werewolf flavour text.
Opening it up would completely erase the flavour of Monk and make it completely impossible to design interesting mechanics because it would be insanely limiting to make a feature that would be compatible with every single possible idea that someone somewhere might think could be classified as either an unarmed fighter or a monk.
See a boxer or a street-fighter doesn't have step of the wind, they don't have Astral arms, they don't have Kensai weapons, they don't shoot sun soul lazers, they don't use elemental manipulations, they don't cling to the shadows, they don't speak every language, they don't have mystically one-ness to have proficiency in all saves, they don't have any reason to be resistant to charm or fear, they don't use Patient Defence, they don't catch bullets... etc... 75% of the class is irrelevant and not applicable to such characters. Which is why they are unarmed Barbarians or unarmed Fighters not Monks.
If you can't imagine it here's my interpretation: Ryu: 8-levels Zealot Barbarian + 3-levels of Battlemaster Fighter (Unarmed Fighting Style)
Ryu stepped into the alley, there at the other end was Akuma, a cocky smirk on his face, and behind him Gouken is lying a crumpled bloody mess. Ryu's back straightened, he felt his hand balling into fists. He glares at Akuma, and with his next step enters the familiar fighting stance that he had spend years perfecting so that it felt as natural as breathing. He could feel the adrenaline rushing through his body heightening his senses, and quickening his reflexes (Danger Sense), but he was in control it's strength was his strength and he knew he could channel it to defeat Akuma once and for all (Rage!). He rushes forward closing the distance in an instant (Instinctive Pounce), and slams a hand into Akuma's face before he can react (Feral Instinct). Akuma staggers under the weight of the strike (Divine Fury), and before he can recover Ryu's foot has swung forwards into his stomach (Extra Attack) throwing him back against the wall of the alley (Pushing Attack). Akuma wipes the blood from his mouth and throws himself at Ryu, but his fists bounce off of Ryu's body hardened as it is from years of training (Unarmoured Defense). Ryu spins and feints with the left and brings his right hand up under Akuma's chin (Feinting Attack) then slams his left into Akuma's chest releasing a burst of pent up energy (Divine Fury, Extra Attack). Akuma growls and strikes out with a devastating flurry of attacks into Ryu's chest but Ryu feels the pain blossom as he feels a rib crack under the beating but he remembers his training and mentally pushes the pain aside there would be time enough to deal with that after Gouken was safe (damage resistance from Rage). He quickly steps aside dodging Akuma's finishing strike and kicks out at Akuma's exposed side (Riposte). He grits his teeth, as the taste of blood wells from his throat. It was do or die, he shifts his stance sacrificing his ability to block Akuma's strikes in order to put all his strength into each strike (Reckless Attack) and charges Akuma, the first well placed strike shatters Akuma collar bone, the second smashes his nose and Akuma sinks to the ground no more dangerous than a bag of rice.
Well and what about Radiant Sun Bolt as Ha-dou-ken? The jumping capability and bouncing on screen limits (SotW). Some using some weapon (Vega/Balrog depending region) for Kensai, and etc. Can fit perfectly as all them are unarmored. And I cannot see them raging but using techniques instead. Is not trying to fit 1:1 with a videogame any case.
The others is just the opposite, many interesting possibilities. From Dex Shadow ninja-like to balanced Open Hand, each one choosing their degree of each of the possibilities for each subclass, so even with the same subclass can create different characters.
Get a Shadow monk, you probably want a +3 on Dex for stealth, then +1 to Str to complete the MA and get some athletics, then split the remaining to Int (investigation), Wis (Perception) and maybe Con (if remaining). At level 4 you have, as you already have the expected +4 on attack:
- Get a FS like archery or throwing weapons, as at level 6 you can reach quickly places in dark areas.
- Get some skilled feat if you want to get the “Rogue” role of the party.
How cannot be interesting mechanics? The combos you can create from each subclass are. It allows much more fine attunement to what you’d want from it.
Many people wanted in the monk some specialist in unarmed better than weapons, well that is adding both for MA unarmed (should have clarified) attacks, with the exception of Kensai applying maybe also to weapons.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
As Martial Arts user, the whole fitness should affect. What about using the addition of Str and Dex for all the MA stuff? Unarmored defense Str + Dex + Wis. MA attack and damage Str + Dex. This also allows to set something different than high Dex/Wis and all the others at +0, giving more freedom for stats. More athletic monks. If we look at the monk features, they rarely (if any) is related to the use of Dex, so they would work the same using Str or a combo of Str/Dex. It also can compensate the damage at higher tiers, and the lack of magical items (even if you introduce them they usually will be more rare than a weapon). Some usage for the new backgrounds getting 3 +1 for Str, Dex and Wis for a balanced character. At low levels would be more glass cannon compared to others (with higher hit rate and fixed damage by stats) but this is compensated at higher levels as the monk gets mobility and resistances.
I still see the need to get access to Fighting Styles and Combat feats, and getting an extra feat at some level 5-9.
If we look at a character so enclosed like a Paladin, with its heavy armor and all that, well you can actually play a Dex Paladin, and if you focus on buff spells you can even have low Cha. Most usually have some options, but the monk. A Str monk is not playable, exchanging Wis by Int or Cha is barely playable, is attached too tight to the Dex/Wis, making all monks the same thing, based on agility and you'd also want to the Perception things because the Wis. Few options.
Wis for monk stuff, like DC and DP = Wis + monk level, granting those DP that currently lacks at low levels. You want that spiritual monk? put Str/Dex 14/14 and Wis 16, as you already have the +4 expected at level 4 for others, can increase Wis, if you increase more later, you have lesser attack/damage output, but great DC and more DP.
You have a couple good points here. 1) There are currently no great options to make a single class strength based monk that synergize well with main class features and that is a shame as i think that would be totally awesome. 2) How monks are percieved by the designers may vary alot from how monk fans percieve the monk and that makes monks very difficult to design for. Particularly because main class features are suppose to be generic and flavor is typically added in subclasses.
I think in the last UA they had a great idea with warlocks where you could pick your primary casting stat as intelligence, wisdom or charisma and build your character around that. I like that idea as a framework for the monk. For the main class they could give options for a wisdom based monk (e.g. unarmored AC = 10+ wisdom modifier + proficiency bonus) that is more into the mystical aspect. And give options for a strength or dex based monk (unarmored AC = 10 + strength or dex modifier + proficiency bonus) that leans more toward the physical aspect. Then they could give a bunch of customizable options, (like how the warlock gets invocations) so people can pick how they want their monk to be as levels increase.
For example if deflect missles were just one of a few options you could choose from i dont think i would ever take it because i think its garbage. But i understand other people think its great and would totally take it.
Since there is such a wide difference between how many perceive a monk to be, i think more customization options is the way to go so more people can build the monk how they want to.
Multiple casting attributes has been scrapped for Warlock, so I don't see it happening for any other class anytime soon. And build-a-bear classes just isn't what D&D is. If you want a TTRPG like that there are plenty of others out there. Something like Mutants and Masterminds would make building Ryu way easier since you can mix and match stuff to get fireballs + kickboxing + unarmoured + Strength, rather than trying to cobble together something that doesn't fit into any of the 5e classes.
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I did write a monk subclass on the monk thread, but since it had no response, I assumed it was not something people would want to play.
The base concept was to deal "speed damage" on your enemies, your unarmed strikes dealt cold damage and on each hit it would apply a 'slow' effect equal to your unarmored movement bonus, and if the creature's speed was reduced to 0, then it got incapacitated, no save, but if it received any damage that was not cold damage the incapacitated condition stopped.
People seem to be afraid of giving the monk something powerful, but with Stunning Strike being forgettable now and with Hand being headed to the dumpster, being a bit positive about new additions may not be too much of a stretch. On the other hand, lowering expectatives might be for the best though, it will all depend on who's in charge of any new revision of the monk...
Imo, it's more that people have unrealistic ideas about what a Monk should have. You'll note that in the current PHB Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues all lack any core class features that give their attacks riders to inflict a condition. Ergo Monks already have a powerful option that no other weapon focused class has anything comparable to. Yes, there's the issue of resource management and CON saves being highest on average, but as has been noted, this is a powerful condition. No, you can't spam Stunning Strikes and Flurry of Blows at the same time, but that would be seriously broken if you could, and as I outlined earlier imo if you're in a situation where you want SS, it's worth forgoing a fourth attack to focus on it.
There are some areas that monks struggle with, like magic items, but frankly the magic item distribution has been wonky since the start (have you seen how many special spellbooks there are for Wizards? compare that to the two or three class specific items other casters get), so that's less a flaw with the design of the class as it is of the magic item system, and one I'm sure they're hearing plenty of feedback on. Yes, +X unarmed weapons would be good for Monks, as would some kind of Monk-specific robe or something to give them a little more love in the area of armor, but honestly the biggest problem with the class itself imo is that people see the various Ki options and want to have a Dagwood sandwich of all of them at once, which seems to me to clearly not be how the class is meant to handle. My take is that FoB is the default, and you use the others only when they have sufficient value to forgo FoB for the turn. Could maybe use a little tuning on the resource refresh rate too, but the features themselves are solid when you take a step back and think about how to apply them, at least for me.
I am in a similar feeling for monk after all of this. Monks aren't bad per se, but they gobble their resources at a fairly constant rate. Either reduce it for some feature (which the subclasses did well with the duration effects) or give some other option outside of a short rest. Heightened Metabolism is a good idea, I would prefer it earlier, and usable in combat, even if it was weaker.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Those books for wizards each represent a different school of magic. There is also a shard for each plane for sorcerers. Monks don’t have enough variance between subclasses to need a different magic item for each subclass. They have the dragonhide belt that gives a +1,+2, or +3 to you monk save DC and there are two items that and a +1 to your unarmed strikes. Eldritch claw tattoo and insignia of claws. The later is in ToD so I didn’t even know it existed until a year ago. As far as I know both lack a +2 and +3 version which is a problem, but not as wonky as you tried to make it seem. Honestly at the start most magic items were usable by multiple casters. Warlock and pact rod is the only one I can think of that was limited to one class.
Cloak of protection, ring of protection, bracers of defense already exist to boost the monks AC. The problem isn’t magic items. It’s that you shouldn’t need magic items. Barbarians can use normal shields and armor if their unarmored defense isn’t enough. Monks need a better way to get AC at lower levels without losing all of their features.
Every other martial class uses magic weapons to increase their damage. Monks can use them, but their damage increases automatically and gain their ability to bypass resistance to non magical weapons. If you look at the early art for 5e monk it shows a monk using a shortsword. I remember art for 3e monk using a quarterstaff. I think they expected players who want to optimize to use a weapon. Especially at low levels. Quarterstaff wielded in two hands is easily the optimal level 1 weapon for monk in 5e. Introduction of weapon properties is going to mix that up in 5eR. For any class with a good bonus action sadly Nick will be the only property worth looking at.
Well, if I'm not playing a Wis-focused monk, then I don't try Stunning Strike (which goes back to my idea of monk subclasses defining the playstyle) unless I want to trigger Ki-Fueled Strike; but FoB has a problem of its own, which is it's dependance on the Attack action, even if it is the default offensive option, it forces the monk to end their attacks in melee unless they somehow extend the unarmed strikes' reach. I did like what Baldur's Gate did, which was making FoB a completely independant bonus action, and this can have some positive effects on the 5e subclasses (ESPECIALLY Open Hand), making room to do something else as a main action (yes, I know you can just invert the order and attack twice and then SoW or PD, but since some subclasses improve your FoB, you want it accessible at all times).
Regarding your bit about FoB, it's not a flaw that they need to take the Attack Action to make Bonus Action Attacks, it's a deliberate design point. About the only exception to this that I can find is an Eldritch Knight feature, and they can only do it after casting a cantrip and way later a spell, so in practical terms it's still almost always going to mean the player has made some kind of attack first. And ending their turn in melee if they use FoB is also the point; you have the choice between using your bonus action to fall back or to double down on damage.
Regarding "WIS Monks", I'm not exactly sure why you wouldn't be investing points in WIS unless you're looking to do some self imposed challenge; I've repeatedly crunched the numbers and with Point-Buy you can hit 16 DEX and 16 WIS with 12 CON without dumping a stat below 10, assuming you use the wildcard starting ASI rules. They could maybe use an extra ASI as they level, but for how low-cost Stunning Strike is, even just the +3 mod plus prof isn't bad. Plus the save for that one does kinda need to be something that's not super hard for enemies to beat, or Monks would just lock down every boss without Stun immunity (currently 87 creatures in the whole game). Like I said, one of the big complaints I see for Monks is that they're not able to constantly use their whole tool kit at once, and that just seems like a really unrealistic expectation to have in the first place. If you want to zip in and out, save your bonus action for it or take the Mobile feat.
In other words, all the monks are exactly the same. I still see a problem for character creation if depends on dual ability score for only the base class, without even thinking on multi-class, it carry the ballast.
Monk and Barbarian are the perfect classes to compare to pinpoint the flaws of the Monk. This is because in many ways in 5e they seem to come from similar design concepts mechanically.
1st level they both gain Unarmored defense, but the barbarian version is far superior. The Barbarian’s Unarmored Defense and Con to the normal calculation and allows the use of a shield. This is further improved because of the synergy it brings with Rage. Con increases you hp and then Rage practically doubles it against the primary source of damage. Rage also gives a slight boost to damage. Looking at the monks Unarmored Defense which adds Wis to the normal AC calculation their is no 1st level synergies. At level 1 you only need Wisdom for the Unarmored defense. To make matters worse as a Barbarian you have the option of wear light or medium armor forgoing Unarmored Defense, but a Monk has no choice. Martial arts is a substantial boost to damage at Level 1, but it requires you do not wear armor. So instead of a synergy between your first level features you get a forced use of it playing a Monk. Also since the Monks Martial Arts damage add is far superior to the Barbarians Rage’s damage add the designers decided that Monks should receive less hp getting a d8 while Barbarians get a d12. The fix is to either allow monks to wear armor by allowing martial arts to work in light or maybe even medium armor or increase Monk unarmored defense by a small amount. I would say adding half proficiency bonus would account for the lack of a shield and early level synergies.
2nd level Barbarian gains Reckless attack and Danger sense while Monk gets Ki/DP and Unarmored movement. Again the Monk gains abilities that require it not to wear armor. Both reckless attack and danger sense would work even if the Barbarian put on heavy armor (most wouldn’t because they would lose rage). So the Barbarian wins this level as well. FoB is great and if it was the only ability that required points to use I would give this level to monks, but instead they get two more abilities tied to Ki/DP. SotW and PD. Both are good, but in combat both also ruin the Monks MA action economy. The easiest fix is to allow the monk to take one unarmed strike as part of SotW and PD.
5th Level Both get extra attack. Extra Attack has a synergy with both Rage and Reckless Attack. It does nothing for monk martial arts, or Ki/DP. Monks get the superior feature at this level Stunning Strike. Barbarians only get fast movement. Stunning strike sadly uses the same resource as all the other monk abilities, but finally there is a reason other than Unarmored defense to increase you Wis. Moving into 5eR stunning strike will be once per turn meaning it will no longer have synergy with the additional attacks provided by MA and FoB.
I would keep going but this is already long enough and paints a picture of the lack of synergy in the Monk compared to the Barbarian. Wisdom needs to offer more synergy or Monk save DC needs to be based off their attacking stat like Battle Master Fighter. I would prefer better use of Wisdom, but either works as a fix.
Apologies if it's already been suggested but would giving Unarmed Attacks the Light trait (and Nick Mastery) and removing the Martial Arts Bonus Action attack help? Instead Martial Arts would allow Two-Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Attacks. That way, from level 1, the monk can:
Same number of attacks but shifting one from Bonus Action to free offhand attack. This would reduce the damage loss of using the Bonus Action on something other than FoB.
I still think monks suffer from Ki/DP scarcity at low levels. I like the idea of making SotW/FoB/PD Stances costing a Ki/DP to enter for 1 min, then you can use that Bonus Action ability without Ki/DP cost until you want to change Stance. Later level class/Subclass features could improve the Stances or add new ones.
EDIT: Realising that's same damage output compared to 5e PHB but a net loss of an offhand Light weapon attack under the playtest rules. Although as monks don't get Fighting Styles that would only be a loss of 1d4 (2) damage so...
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
As Martial Arts user, the whole fitness should affect. What about using the addition of Str and Dex for all the MA stuff? Unarmored defense Str + Dex + Wis. MA attack and damage Str + Dex. This also allows to set something different than high Dex/Wis and all the others at +0, giving more freedom for stats. More athletic monks. If we look at the monk features, they rarely (if any) is related to the use of Dex, so they would work the same using Str or a combo of Str/Dex. It also can compensate the damage at higher tiers, and the lack of magical items (even if you introduce them they usually will be more rare than a weapon). Some usage for the new backgrounds getting 3 +1 for Str, Dex and Wis for a balanced character. At low levels would be more glass cannon compared to others (with higher hit rate and fixed damage by stats) but this is compensated at higher levels as the monk gets mobility and resistances.
I still see the need to get access to Fighting Styles and Combat feats, and getting an extra feat at some level 5-9.
If we look at a character so enclosed like a Paladin, with its heavy armor and all that, well you can actually play a Dex Paladin, and if you focus on buff spells you can even have low Cha. Most usually have some options, but the monk. A Str monk is not playable, exchanging Wis by Int or Cha is barely playable, is attached too tight to the Dex/Wis, making all monks the same thing, based on agility and you'd also want to the Perception things because the Wis. Few options.
Wis for monk stuff, like DC and DP = Wis + monk level, granting those DP that currently lacks at low levels. You want that spiritual monk? put Str/Dex 14/14 and Wis 16, as you already have the +4 expected at level 4 for others, can increase Wis, if you increase more later, you have lesser attack/damage output, but great DC and more DP.
Until 5e Monks needed Str for damage. They were absolutely MAD. You would be recreating that MADness by adding STR into the calculations. It would also open Monk up to some crazy exploits with magic items.
Some examples?
And I see no relationship between previous and 5e, the system is much different.
I generally just dont think having Dex and Strength split up the way they currently are makes a whole lot of sense tbh. While Ryu would probably be a "strength monk" I cant really come up with any super agile characters/people who wouldnt also have a pretty high strength. Ideally Strength and Dex would interact in some other way than they currently do.
What do we imagine your typical low stre, high Dex monk build to look like?.. Jackie Chan in his prime? He was incredibly nimble, part of being so nimble was that he was infact also way above average strength, I mean the guy was shredded... I can certain say "well then put points into strength as well" but not only is that mechanically not super useful, its not encouraged for one of the primary dex classes, and I think most who people who make a monk probably imagine their character to be pretty physically fit, despite not being able to lift more than the dusty old wizard. I guess my point is that the way you get to a high Dex level in real life, is by having well developed muscles while maintaining a relatively low body mass.
I can quite easily imagine a low dex, high strength character.. your typical power lifter build..big, chunky, powerful.. But I guess I cant really imagine the other way around.
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Sorry but cannot see it like a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler, no matter how many times is said. Barbarian gets martial weapons, and ARMOR, while ALL the monk features are around being unarmored. That’s another reason why if the monk want access to FS is absurd the need to get one level of fighter. And notice the Barbarian MA does not improves, opposite with what is supposed to be the character.
By that Ryu would be better just using a 2 handed axe and entering Rage mode.
The good thing is that mixing it opens a vast of possibilities, from the muscled to the agile and the technical/spiritual. And compensates many things that currently lacks.
Barbarian MA does improve because Rage damage improves. Barbarian unarmed damage starts out higher 1d8+STR+2 vs 1d6+DEX, and ends up basically equivalent: 1d8+STR+4 vs 1d12+DEX. Most Barbarians I have played with choose not to use armour , and I've never ever seen one using a shield (just because you can, doesn't mean you should) [Meanwhile tons of people want to let Monks use armour b/c Samurai and IRL war-monks used armour]. And the Beast Barbarian is even entirely built around unarmed attacks, all you need to do is ignore the werewolf flavour text.
Opening it up would completely erase the flavour of Monk and make it completely impossible to design interesting mechanics because it would be insanely limiting to make a feature that would be compatible with every single possible idea that someone somewhere might think could be classified as either an unarmed fighter or a monk.
See a boxer or a street-fighter doesn't have step of the wind, they don't have Astral arms, they don't have Kensai weapons, they don't shoot sun soul lazers, they don't use elemental manipulations, they don't cling to the shadows, they don't speak every language, they don't have mystically one-ness to have proficiency in all saves, they don't have any reason to be resistant to charm or fear, they don't use Patient Defence, they don't catch bullets... etc... 75% of the class is irrelevant and not applicable to such characters. Which is why they are unarmed Barbarians or unarmed Fighters not Monks.
If you can't imagine it here's my interpretation:
Ryu: 8-levels Zealot Barbarian + 3-levels of Battlemaster Fighter (Unarmed Fighting Style)
Well and what about Radiant Sun Bolt as Ha-dou-ken? The jumping capability and bouncing on screen limits (SotW). Some using some weapon (Vega/Balrog depending region) for Kensai, and etc. Can fit perfectly as all them are unarmored. And I cannot see them raging but using techniques instead. Is not trying to fit 1:1 with a videogame any case.
The others is just the opposite, many interesting possibilities. From Dex Shadow ninja-like to balanced Open Hand, each one choosing their degree of each of the possibilities for each subclass, so even with the same subclass can create different characters.
Get a Shadow monk, you probably want a +3 on Dex for stealth, then +1 to Str to complete the MA and get some athletics, then split the remaining to Int (investigation), Wis (Perception) and maybe Con (if remaining). At level 4 you have, as you already have the expected +4 on attack:
- Get a FS like archery or throwing weapons, as at level 6 you can reach quickly places in dark areas.
- Get some skilled feat if you want to get the “Rogue” role of the party.
How cannot be interesting mechanics? The combos you can create from each subclass are. It allows much more fine attunement to what you’d want from it.
Many people wanted in the monk some specialist in unarmed better than weapons, well that is adding both for MA unarmed (should have clarified) attacks, with the exception of Kensai applying maybe also to weapons.
You have a couple good points here. 1) There are currently no great options to make a single class strength based monk that synergize well with main class features and that is a shame as i think that would be totally awesome. 2) How monks are percieved by the designers may vary alot from how monk fans percieve the monk and that makes monks very difficult to design for. Particularly because main class features are suppose to be generic and flavor is typically added in subclasses.
I think in the last UA they had a great idea with warlocks where you could pick your primary casting stat as intelligence, wisdom or charisma and build your character around that. I like that idea as a framework for the monk. For the main class they could give options for a wisdom based monk (e.g. unarmored AC = 10+ wisdom modifier + proficiency bonus) that is more into the mystical aspect. And give options for a strength or dex based monk (unarmored AC = 10 + strength or dex modifier + proficiency bonus) that leans more toward the physical aspect. Then they could give a bunch of customizable options, (like how the warlock gets invocations) so people can pick how they want their monk to be as levels increase.
For example if deflect missles were just one of a few options you could choose from i dont think i would ever take it because i think its garbage. But i understand other people think its great and would totally take it.
Since there is such a wide difference between how many perceive a monk to be, i think more customization options is the way to go so more people can build the monk how they want to.
Multiple casting attributes has been scrapped for Warlock, so I don't see it happening for any other class anytime soon. And build-a-bear classes just isn't what D&D is. If you want a TTRPG like that there are plenty of others out there. Something like Mutants and Masterminds would make building Ryu way easier since you can mix and match stuff to get fireballs + kickboxing + unarmoured + Strength, rather than trying to cobble together something that doesn't fit into any of the 5e classes.