The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
Not most, some. If the complaint is about invocations complain about invocations. Don't lie about the speed at which warlocks got access to spells.
Besides at 7 everyone only has 1 4th slot at 9 everyone only has 1 5th slot. And from beyond that 1 6th,7th,8th and finally 9th. Warlocks ALWAYS had less casting than full casters. Because they aren't a full caster.
About half is "most", not some. And spin as hard as you want, you cannot tell me a class that gets fewer high level spell over a more spread out period of time and nothing truly comparable to a martial class to compensate is anything but hobbled.
EB has always been comparable to a martial class. Again stop lying. And it is RARELY "about half" for most of their levels. it is 1/3 at level 5, UNLESS you count the free invocations you got from your pact and than it is 1/4 or 1/5, then at 7 it is 2/5, at 9 it is 2/6, 11 3/7, 13, 3/8, 15, 4/9, and 17, 4/10. The closest it gets is at the highest levels when invocations were plentiful anyway. And BY DEFINITION, you need MORE than half for it to be "Most". Because MOST means more Than NOT. Half is not and has never been and shall never be "most". It is Some.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
Not most, some. If the complaint is about invocations complain about invocations. Don't lie about the speed at which warlocks got access to spells.
Besides at 7 everyone only has 1 4th slot at 9 everyone only has 1 5th slot. And from beyond that 1 6th,7th,8th and finally 9th. Warlocks ALWAYS had less casting than full casters. Because they aren't a full caster.
About half is "most", not some. And spin as hard as you want, you cannot tell me a class that gets fewer high level spell over a more spread out period of time and nothing truly comparable to a martial class to compensate is anything but hobbled.
EB has always been comparable to a martial class. Again stop lying. And it is RARELY "about half" for most of their levels. it is 1/3 at level 5, UNLESS you count the free invocations you got from your pact and than it is 1/4 or 1/5, then at 7 it is 2/5, at 9 it is 2/6, 11 3/7, 13, 3/8, 15, 4/9, and 17, 4/10. The closest it gets is at the highest levels when invocations were plentiful anyway. And BY DEFINITION, you need MORE than half for it to be "Most". Because MOST means more Than NOT. Half is not and has never been and shall never be "most". It is Some.
I grant, I'd been thinking of the combination of Arcanum and basically mandatory Pact Boon based invocations, but the point stands that to get halfway decent performance out of the class most of your "optional" picks are locked in. And no, EB is not the equivalent of a Martial, especially not now. Rangers and Paladins both got fighting styles, and with that and any +X weapon, they're gonna outperform EB. Now, on top of that, martials including Paladin and Ranger have the Weapon Masteries that have simply been added to their classes, so the gap has only grown. You can spin as hard as you want, but by core class features the Warlock has nothing to recommend it as a magic pick since Bard, Wizard, and Sorcerer are all so much better for actually casting spells, and as a half caster it's completely lacking a compelling other half compared to Paladin, Ranger, or Artificer. Seriously, look at the features table: at 7 of the levels the only "feature" you gain is an EI, and with the new stunted spellcasting progression the only way you're actually getting a marked bump in performance there is with MA or Pact Invocations (with AB basically being a Pact Invocation for Chainlock, since Tomes get it as a freebie now). Compare that to the feature lists for Ranger or Paladins and try and tell me being allowed to spend resources you could previously use for utility customizations just to maintain some semblance of what was the baseline performance of the class is anything but a massive downgrade. Particularly with all the new spells Wizards and Sorcerers get as they level.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
Not most, some. If the complaint is about invocations complain about invocations. Don't lie about the speed at which warlocks got access to spells.
Besides at 7 everyone only has 1 4th slot at 9 everyone only has 1 5th slot. And from beyond that 1 6th,7th,8th and finally 9th. Warlocks ALWAYS had less casting than full casters. Because they aren't a full caster.
About half is "most", not some. And spin as hard as you want, you cannot tell me a class that gets fewer high level spell over a more spread out period of time and nothing truly comparable to a martial class to compensate is anything but hobbled.
EB has always been comparable to a martial class. Again stop lying. And it is RARELY "about half" for most of their levels. it is 1/3 at level 5, UNLESS you count the free invocations you got from your pact and than it is 1/4 or 1/5, then at 7 it is 2/5, at 9 it is 2/6, 11 3/7, 13, 3/8, 15, 4/9, and 17, 4/10. The closest it gets is at the highest levels when invocations were plentiful anyway. And BY DEFINITION, you need MORE than half for it to be "Most". Because MOST means more Than NOT. Half is not and has never been and shall never be "most". It is Some.
I grant, I'd been thinking of the combination of Arcanum and basically mandatory Pact Boon based invocations, but the point stands that to get halfway decent performance out of the class most of your "optional" picks are locked in. And no, EB is not the equivalent of a Martial, especially not now. Rangers and Paladins both got fighting styles, and with that and any +X weapon, they're gonna outperform EB. Now, on top of that, martials including Paladin and Ranger have the Weapon Masteries that have simply been added to their classes, so the gap has only grown. You can spin as hard as you want, but by core class features the Warlock has nothing to recommend it as a magic pick since Bard, Wizard, and Sorcerer are all so much better for actually casting spells, and as a half caster it's completely lacking a compelling other half compared to Paladin, Ranger, or Artificer. Seriously, look at the features table: at 7 of the levels the only "feature" you gain is an EI, and with the new stunted spellcasting progression the only way you're actually getting a marked bump in performance there is with MA or Pact Invocations (with AB basically being a Pact Invocation for Chainlock, since Tomes get it as a freebie now). Compare that to the feature lists for Ranger or Paladins and try and tell me being allowed to spend resources you could previously use for utility customizations just to maintain some semblance of what was the baseline performance of the class is anything but a massive downgrade. Particularly with all the new spells Wizards and Sorcerers get as they level.
I am confused what you mean by "pact invocations" the "pact invocations" were built into the pact in this version you aren't taking invocation slots for them. You don't take the pact invocations. You take AB, UNLESS you are Tome lock (this is an issue with the other pacts not the set up premise). Over the "other" half-casters at 7 you ACTUALLY get a 3rd and 4th level spell like the full casters do. Which is still better than MOST of their features. As far as comparing them to ranger/paladin Martial wise. At what level do you want to compare? At 5 the ranger is doing a d8+ dex with their ranged attack the Warlock is getting a d10+cha with their ranged attack. They both attack twice. Hex and Hunter's mark work the same. Spell Sniper and Sharpshooter work the same. The longbow's mastery is slow, you can get slow on EB with Lance of Lethargy OR you can get Push with repelling blast, giving you something more akin to the fighter's level 7 feature that allows them to swap masteries. A magical weapon increases the Rangers damage, but so does rod of the pact keeper for the Warlock. The only thing you are missing here is Skill expertise and Fighting style, but you are trading it for a 3rd level and a 4th level spell + other pact features like extra cantrips and ritual spells, or an invisible intelligent flying familiar, Blade of course is still short changed but again an issue with some of the pacts not the premise or the set up of the class. They are ABSOLUTELY martial equivalent there is a reason Warlocks are the "baseline" for "decent damage". This warlock does decent damage and still has access to a good number of spells and tricks. They don't just do damage AND they do ok damage.
Thank you for your analysis. Thus far I’ve seen a lot of hostility to the revised warlock, and I can’t for the life of me see why. So far what I am seeing is some good bones that need some minor tweaks here and there. The level one pact cantrips? Love the idea that you get a tangible conduit for your pact magic (not the class feature from before) right out of the gate. Seeing this has given me, personally, a desire to play a chainlock. Decent damage from the familiar and a frankly disgusting rider effect if you upgrade with the lvl 9 invocation? Sign me tf up. If they add an invocation that allows you to transform your little guy into a bigger guy I might die of joy. The tome just needs an adjustment to the rituals you can use, probably scaling with level and it’s perfect. Blade…blade could use some work, but, again, good bones. The whole revision feels more like they baked in the flavor of the occultist the warlock SHOULD be. That’s my takeaway anyway. The capstone, however, is a bit underwhelming as it stands. That is one position I will unequivocally agree with.
The Warlock is possibly my favorite class just on flavor alone. I know that the good folks on the design team touched the sacred cow here, but I’m looking forward to what they come up with.
The biggest issue is making what was a natively full caster progression class a “free trial” half caster, and then saying you can dump resources that used to be used for cool additional effects into a weak imitation of what the class used to have baked in. Personally I also think the Pact Familiar is underwhelming and losing most of the meat the current iteration has, but the fact that based on the current model I’d be forced to choose between having a single 3rd and 4th level cast a day on my current Warlock or having fun utility Invocations like Misty Visions or Mask of Many Faces clearly highlights this is a broken down wreck at present. The core features are minimal and don’t synergize, and unless you’re Pact of the Blade you’re objectively not going to get anything like decent combat performance. Well, maybe if you pretty much exclusively dedicated your concentration to Hex, but that’s still returning to the point that this iteration of Warlock seems to force people into a very narrow spectrum of choices if they want anything close to the current performance.
The biggest issue is making what was a natively full caster progression class a “free trial” half caster, and then saying you can dump resources that used to be used for cool additional effects.
Like what? Seriously here, most of the Warlock Invocations were niche, dull, or just free spells that have been replaced with MA.
PS have you looked at the current UA? Eldritch Blast is the best ranged-damage you can get. 3x attacks of 1d10+5 + HEX at level 11 is better than anything a Ranger can do at that same level in terms of damage.
Not really; Rangers tend to get riders to weapon damage as subclass features, and between Archery and a +X bow the typical Ranger is going to be landing attacks more consistently and doing more damage with them than a Warlock with EB.
Regarding Invocations, the point is that instead of being able to round out a build with the assorted oddball options, you’re pretty well locked into spending them to get a handful of casts that you would have had as an automatic class feature on top of the usual Pact Boon picks like Lifedrinker or Chain Master, with Chain also basically being hit with an extra tax in the form of AB now that Tome has the upgrade. Unless you go Blade, you really can’t make a Warlock anything other than a lukewarm imitation of a Sorcerer or Wizard like this.
Not really; Rangers tend to get riders to weapon damage as subclass features, and between Archery and a +X bow the typical Ranger is going to be landing attacks more consistently and doing more damage with them than a Warlock with EB.
Regarding Invocations, the point is that instead of being able to round out a build with the assorted oddball options, you’re pretty well locked into spending them to get a handful of casts that you would have had as an automatic class feature on top of the usual Pact Boon picks like Lifedrinker or Chain Master, with Chain also basically being hit with an extra tax in the form of AB now that Tome has the upgrade. Unless you go Blade, you really can’t make a Warlock anything other than a lukewarm imitation of a Sorcerer or Wizard like this.
Instead the oddball options are on your spell list. Because you are getting more spells at every level. It is just a shift of where the "odd ball" stuff is. And if we want to talk about what subclasses give, warlocks have historically had some of the best subclass features in the game.
Not really; Rangers tend to get riders to weapon damage as subclass features, and between Archery and a +X bow the typical Ranger is going to be landing attacks more consistently and doing more damage with them than a Warlock with EB.
Regarding Invocations, the point is that instead of being able to round out a build with the assorted oddball options, you’re pretty well locked into spending them to get a handful of casts that you would have had as an automatic class feature on top of the usual Pact Boon picks like Lifedrinker or Chain Master, with Chain also basically being hit with an extra tax in the form of AB now that Tome has the upgrade. Unless you go Blade, you really can’t make a Warlock anything other than a lukewarm imitation of a Sorcerer or Wizard like this.
Instead the oddball options are on your spell list. Because you are getting more spells at every level. It is just a shift of where the "odd ball" stuff is. And if we want to talk about what subclasses give, warlocks have historically had some of the best subclass features in the game.
More spells per level don't matter if the spells can't make a meaningful impact. Half-casters like the paladin and ranger get significant abilities to help them stay in the fight and absorb punishment, their spells supplement their roles but don't define them. Cutting the warlock's access to spells to the same rate without the staying ability of a martial class makes their primary contribution Eldritch Blast or nothing.
It's not that the Warlock is underpowered without full caster spell access, they're just much less interesting to play.
Not really; Rangers tend to get riders to weapon damage as subclass features, and between Archery and a +X bow the typical Ranger is going to be landing attacks more consistently and doing more damage with them than a Warlock with EB.
Regarding Invocations, the point is that instead of being able to round out a build with the assorted oddball options, you’re pretty well locked into spending them to get a handful of casts that you would have had as an automatic class feature on top of the usual Pact Boon picks like Lifedrinker or Chain Master, with Chain also basically being hit with an extra tax in the form of AB now that Tome has the upgrade. Unless you go Blade, you really can’t make a Warlock anything other than a lukewarm imitation of a Sorcerer or Wizard like this.
Instead the oddball options are on your spell list. Because you are getting more spells at every level. It is just a shift of where the "odd ball" stuff is. And if we want to talk about what subclasses give, warlocks have historically had some of the best subclass features in the game.
More spells per level don't matter if the spells can't make a meaningful impact. Half-casters like the paladin and ranger get significant abilities to help them stay in the fight and absorb punishment, their spells supplement their roles but don't define them. Cutting the warlock's access to spells to the same rate without the staying ability of a martial class makes their primary contribution Eldritch Blast or nothing.
It's not that the Warlock is underpowered without full caster spell access, they're just much less interesting to play.
Eldritch blast is martial staying power. It is better than a long bow for most. And their access to spell power ISNT cut to the same as paladin or ranger. Neither of them can get a 3rd level cast at 5, a 4th at 7 or a 5th at 9 and warlock can. I was comparing first level slots that to odd ball invocations since your "power" is being shifted to invocations
More spells per level don't matter if the spells can't make a meaningful impact. Half-casters like the paladin and ranger get significant abilities to help them stay in the fight and absorb punishment, their spells supplement their roles but don't define them. Cutting the warlock's access to spells to the same rate without the staying ability of a martial class makes their primary contribution Eldritch Blast or nothing.
It's not that the Warlock is underpowered without full caster spell access, they're just much less interesting to play.
The main contribution of a Ranger is longbow/crossbow attacks + Hunter's Mark. The main contribution of a Paladin is a melee weapon attack + Smite. The main contribution of Warlock is Eldritch Blast + Hex.
With the nerf to Sharpshooter the only significant difference between Longbow and Eldritch Blast is Longbow gets weapon mastery and EB gets a d10 instead of a d8.
Warlock gets Shield, Blur, Mirror Image to help them take punishment better than either the Paladin or Ranger. Warlock also gets more and higher level spells available plus a larger spell list to pick from than Paladin or Ranger.
Not really; Rangers tend to get riders to weapon damage as subclass features, and between Archery and a +X bow the typical Ranger is going to be landing attacks more consistently and doing more damage with them than a Warlock with EB.
Regarding Invocations, the point is that instead of being able to round out a build with the assorted oddball options, you’re pretty well locked into spending them to get a handful of casts that you would have had as an automatic class feature on top of the usual Pact Boon picks like Lifedrinker or Chain Master, with Chain also basically being hit with an extra tax in the form of AB now that Tome has the upgrade. Unless you go Blade, you really can’t make a Warlock anything other than a lukewarm imitation of a Sorcerer or Wizard like this.
Instead the oddball options are on your spell list. Because you are getting more spells at every level. It is just a shift of where the "odd ball" stuff is. And if we want to talk about what subclasses give, warlocks have historically had some of the best subclass features in the game.
More spells per level don't matter if the spells can't make a meaningful impact. Half-casters like the paladin and ranger get significant abilities to help them stay in the fight and absorb punishment, their spells supplement their roles but don't define them. Cutting the warlock's access to spells to the same rate without the staying ability of a martial class makes their primary contribution Eldritch Blast or nothing.
It's not that the Warlock is underpowered without full caster spell access, they're just much less interesting to play.
Eldritch blast is martial staying power. It is better than a long bow for most. And their access to spell power ISNT cut to the same as paladin or ranger. Neither of them can get a 3rd level cast at 5, a 4th at 7 or a 5th at 9 and warlock can. I was comparing first level slots that to odd ball invocations since your "power" is being shifted to invocations
You're confusing damage output with how interesting the class is to play. The ranger and paladin come up here not based on how much damage any of them can put out per round but how likely any of them are to being in the front lines. Part of what a player is getting out of the warrior subclass experience is being able to stay at the vanguard where the game is most interesting. Full spellcasters get to nova with high level spells while expert classes can find ways around a problem.
The warlock is relegated to a worse off version of both. They've neither got the endurance nor melee power to be where the action is, nor is their spell list good enough now to warrant a nova action. They can cast a high value spell but they'll never grant the benefits that a real caster can, and can't adapt to new situations.
I'm not arguing that a Warlock is nerfed out of combat usability. I'm arguing that the UA warlock isn't a fun play experience.
More spells per level don't matter if the spells can't make a meaningful impact. Half-casters like the paladin and ranger get significant abilities to help them stay in the fight and absorb punishment, their spells supplement their roles but don't define them. Cutting the warlock's access to spells to the same rate without the staying ability of a martial class makes their primary contribution Eldritch Blast or nothing.
It's not that the Warlock is underpowered without full caster spell access, they're just much less interesting to play.
The main contribution of a Ranger is longbow/crossbow attacks + Hunter's Mark. The main contribution of a Paladin is a melee weapon attack + Smite. The main contribution of Warlock is Eldritch Blast + Hex.
With the nerf to Sharpshooter the only significant difference between Longbow and Eldritch Blast is Longbow gets weapon mastery and EB gets a d10 instead of a d8.
Warlock gets Shield, Blur, Mirror Image to help them take punishment better than either the Paladin or Ranger. Warlock also gets more and higher level spells available plus a larger spell list to pick from than Paladin or Ranger.
You're talking about damage output, I'm talking about the experience of playing the character. There's a fundamental difference between playing a martial character that supports themselves with spellcasting and the one-trick pony like the UA warlock.
You're talking about damage output, I'm talking about the experience of playing the character. There's a fundamental difference between playing a martial character that supports themselves with spellcasting and the one-trick pony like the UA warlock.
The simple solution here is to accept that not every class is going to be personally exciting for you, whether that's because you're engaged in reality regarding its capabilities or not, and if someone else finds the Warlock and all of its features (such as spells and subclass abilities) to be interesting, I don't think they're going to be bothered by other folks telling them it's a "one-trick pony" (that can cast more than two spells).
I don't know what I said to warrant that tone from you, but I think we're done here.
UA warlock is far from a one-trick pony. It's got a lot more tricks up it's sleeve than the current warlock imo.
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1 level, Hexblade, Eldritch Blast, medium armor and shields, charisma as your combat stat for melee with non-two-handed/heavy weapons, the Shield spell. Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin
2 levels, Hexblade, as above plus Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast/some other invocation of your choice.
3 levels, Hexblade, as above plus Pact of the Blade and Improved Pact Weapon. They also got two level 2 Pact slots.
With the revised Warlock rules it's just
1 level, medium armour, charisma OR wisdom as your combat stat for melee with non-heavy weapons, summonable weapons, the Shield spell. Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin/Cleric/Ranger.
1 level, medium armour, intelligence OR wisdom, pact of the tome for two free cantrips and ritual spells. Wizard/Cleric, maybe Artificer.
Because of the way half-casters round down now you don't even lose spell slot progression, you just put spell levels 1 level behind. Sure, Eldritch Blast isn't going to help you much, but you can upcast Hex (if you've nothing better to do) with Sorcerer/Bard/Cleric much faster than Warlock can.
So Warlock dips, for the most part, actually became better, not worse.
1 level, Hexblade, Eldritch Blast, medium armor and shields, charisma as your combat stat for melee with non-two-handed/heavy weapons, the Shield spell. Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin
2 levels, Hexblade, as above plus Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast/some other invocation of your choice.
3 levels, Hexblade, as above plus Pact of the Blade and Improved Pact Weapon. They also got two level 2 Pact slots.
With the revised Warlock rules it's just
1 level, medium armour, charisma OR wisdom as your combat stat for melee with non-heavy weapons, summonable weapons, the Shield spell. Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin/Cleric/Ranger.
1 level, medium armour, intelligence OR wisdom, pact of the tome for two free cantrips and ritual spells. Wizard/Cleric, maybe Artificer.
Because of the way half-casters round down now you don't even lose spell slot progression, you just put spell levels 1 level behind. Sure, Eldritch Blast isn't going to help you much, but you can upcast Hex (if you've nothing better to do) with Sorcerer/Bard/Cleric much faster than Warlock can.
So Warlock dips, for the most part, actually became better, not worse.
Well Yes, but also no. A big part of the reason the dip existed before was for martial characters like Paladin to get access to single attribute attack bonuses and for Casters to get access to EB+AB. The EB+AB combo is dead because of how it scales with warlock levels now and the access to single attribute is less valuable due to the feats all becoming half feats and not offering Charisma or wisdom as a bump options so those martial classes are likely taking those feats that bump their dex or strength anyway making their attacks relying on cha or wisdom much less valuable. A full caster really doesn't have a reason to dip warlock, but a half caster, or an eldritch knight or arcane trickster rogue might still do so, but it is the feats that make it less appealing.
I'd say they became easier, not better. The 1 level warlock dip is bad for the game imo.
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I'd say they became easier, not better. The 1 level warlock dip is bad for the game imo.
Easier due to the fact that it can be Int, wis or Cha ya, but worse in most respects. Casters aren't going to do it now because there really isn't anything they get from a 1 or 2 level dip where before cha casters would dip for EB+AB to get close to martial damage on a full caster. Paladin would dip Hexblade specifically for Cha as an attack stat, same with things like swords bard. It isn't weaker to do now, but there is much less incentive to do so now. First the option IS a little weaker because you only get the CHA bonus to attack with the pact weapon you summon not all attacks and the pact weapon MUST be a non-heavy weapon, which the most damaging weapons are heavy weapons. Second the feats like charger and the like that weapon wielders are going to want to take bump strength or dex already which makes the incentive to use CHA or WIS for your attack much lower and much less rewarding by comparison to just taking the feats and level dips of OTHER classes. I really suggest looking at and trying to build a concept using the 1 level dip of warlock through to level 9 vs just taking the class to level 9, I think you will find that you aren't actually getting a lot of value for that 1 level warlock dip as you may think.
For example Paladin, You need a minimum of 13 strength to multi-class here anyway and a minimum 15 strength to wear the heaviest armor. So you are going to be putting points into strength already, then as you level up the feats you are going to want to take to bump your damage are all going to bump your strength and not your charisma. By level 9 you could have 2 good feats and a 19 in strength and still have a 16 Cha, OR you could have a 20 CHA use your CHA modifier for attacks, but still have a 15 strength and have no feats that bump your damage and be forced to use a non-heavy martial weapon, so no great sword or great axe or anything. Ranger same thing you aren't getting two weapons only one so two weapon fighting isn't going to work that great for you, you can't get a ranged weapon so your bow still needs to use your dex, you are still going to want a minimum of 14 dex anyway for AC and same thing with the feats situation. Monk is probably the only martial that should really consider it, but their unarmed strikes won't scale with the wisdom only their simple weapon attacks, but it would allow them to focus on wisdom instead of dex early on allowing for higher save DC's as, until level 11 a staff or a spear would do the same as their unarmed strike anyway.
I view it as more incentive. Bard and Paladin are still going to do it to be SAD, casters will do it for the easy access to medium armor without delaying spell level progression (and maybe to be sad melee sorcs). Paladin in particular can live without the heaviest armor. Medium armor works fine and having your weapons queue off your casting stat combined with aura, there's no reason /not/ to.
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EB has always been comparable to a martial class. Again stop lying. And it is RARELY "about half" for most of their levels. it is 1/3 at level 5, UNLESS you count the free invocations you got from your pact and than it is 1/4 or 1/5, then at 7 it is 2/5, at 9 it is 2/6, 11 3/7, 13, 3/8, 15, 4/9, and 17, 4/10. The closest it gets is at the highest levels when invocations were plentiful anyway. And BY DEFINITION, you need MORE than half for it to be "Most". Because MOST means more Than NOT. Half is not and has never been and shall never be "most". It is Some.
I grant, I'd been thinking of the combination of Arcanum and basically mandatory Pact Boon based invocations, but the point stands that to get halfway decent performance out of the class most of your "optional" picks are locked in. And no, EB is not the equivalent of a Martial, especially not now. Rangers and Paladins both got fighting styles, and with that and any +X weapon, they're gonna outperform EB. Now, on top of that, martials including Paladin and Ranger have the Weapon Masteries that have simply been added to their classes, so the gap has only grown. You can spin as hard as you want, but by core class features the Warlock has nothing to recommend it as a magic pick since Bard, Wizard, and Sorcerer are all so much better for actually casting spells, and as a half caster it's completely lacking a compelling other half compared to Paladin, Ranger, or Artificer. Seriously, look at the features table: at 7 of the levels the only "feature" you gain is an EI, and with the new stunted spellcasting progression the only way you're actually getting a marked bump in performance there is with MA or Pact Invocations (with AB basically being a Pact Invocation for Chainlock, since Tomes get it as a freebie now). Compare that to the feature lists for Ranger or Paladins and try and tell me being allowed to spend resources you could previously use for utility customizations just to maintain some semblance of what was the baseline performance of the class is anything but a massive downgrade. Particularly with all the new spells Wizards and Sorcerers get as they level.
I am confused what you mean by "pact invocations" the "pact invocations" were built into the pact in this version you aren't taking invocation slots for them. You don't take the pact invocations. You take AB, UNLESS you are Tome lock (this is an issue with the other pacts not the set up premise). Over the "other" half-casters at 7 you ACTUALLY get a 3rd and 4th level spell like the full casters do. Which is still better than MOST of their features. As far as comparing them to ranger/paladin Martial wise. At what level do you want to compare? At 5 the ranger is doing a d8+ dex with their ranged attack the Warlock is getting a d10+cha with their ranged attack. They both attack twice. Hex and Hunter's mark work the same. Spell Sniper and Sharpshooter work the same. The longbow's mastery is slow, you can get slow on EB with Lance of Lethargy OR you can get Push with repelling blast, giving you something more akin to the fighter's level 7 feature that allows them to swap masteries. A magical weapon increases the Rangers damage, but so does rod of the pact keeper for the Warlock. The only thing you are missing here is Skill expertise and Fighting style, but you are trading it for a 3rd level and a 4th level spell + other pact features like extra cantrips and ritual spells, or an invisible intelligent flying familiar, Blade of course is still short changed but again an issue with some of the pacts not the premise or the set up of the class. They are ABSOLUTELY martial equivalent there is a reason Warlocks are the "baseline" for "decent damage". This warlock does decent damage and still has access to a good number of spells and tricks. They don't just do damage AND they do ok damage.
Thank you for your analysis. Thus far I’ve seen a lot of hostility to the revised warlock, and I can’t for the life of me see why. So far what I am seeing is some good bones that need some minor tweaks here and there. The level one pact cantrips? Love the idea that you get a tangible conduit for your pact magic (not the class feature from before) right out of the gate. Seeing this has given me, personally, a desire to play a chainlock. Decent damage from the familiar and a frankly disgusting rider effect if you upgrade with the lvl 9 invocation? Sign me tf up. If they add an invocation that allows you to transform your little guy into a bigger guy I might die of joy. The tome just needs an adjustment to the rituals you can use, probably scaling with level and it’s perfect. Blade…blade could use some work, but, again, good bones. The whole revision feels more like they baked in the flavor of the occultist the warlock SHOULD be. That’s my takeaway anyway. The capstone, however, is a bit underwhelming as it stands. That is one position I will unequivocally agree with.
The Warlock is possibly my favorite class just on flavor alone. I know that the good folks on the design team touched the sacred cow here, but I’m looking forward to what they come up with.
The biggest issue is making what was a natively full caster progression class a “free trial” half caster, and then saying you can dump resources that used to be used for cool additional effects into a weak imitation of what the class used to have baked in. Personally I also think the Pact Familiar is underwhelming and losing most of the meat the current iteration has, but the fact that based on the current model I’d be forced to choose between having a single 3rd and 4th level cast a day on my current Warlock or having fun utility Invocations like Misty Visions or Mask of Many Faces clearly highlights this is a broken down wreck at present. The core features are minimal and don’t synergize, and unless you’re Pact of the Blade you’re objectively not going to get anything like decent combat performance. Well, maybe if you pretty much exclusively dedicated your concentration to Hex, but that’s still returning to the point that this iteration of Warlock seems to force people into a very narrow spectrum of choices if they want anything close to the current performance.
Like what? Seriously here, most of the Warlock Invocations were niche, dull, or just free spells that have been replaced with MA.
PS have you looked at the current UA? Eldritch Blast is the best ranged-damage you can get. 3x attacks of 1d10+5 + HEX at level 11 is better than anything a Ranger can do at that same level in terms of damage.
Not really; Rangers tend to get riders to weapon damage as subclass features, and between Archery and a +X bow the typical Ranger is going to be landing attacks more consistently and doing more damage with them than a Warlock with EB.
Regarding Invocations, the point is that instead of being able to round out a build with the assorted oddball options, you’re pretty well locked into spending them to get a handful of casts that you would have had as an automatic class feature on top of the usual Pact Boon picks like Lifedrinker or Chain Master, with Chain also basically being hit with an extra tax in the form of AB now that Tome has the upgrade. Unless you go Blade, you really can’t make a Warlock anything other than a lukewarm imitation of a Sorcerer or Wizard like this.
Instead the oddball options are on your spell list. Because you are getting more spells at every level. It is just a shift of where the "odd ball" stuff is. And if we want to talk about what subclasses give, warlocks have historically had some of the best subclass features in the game.
More spells per level don't matter if the spells can't make a meaningful impact. Half-casters like the paladin and ranger get significant abilities to help them stay in the fight and absorb punishment, their spells supplement their roles but don't define them. Cutting the warlock's access to spells to the same rate without the staying ability of a martial class makes their primary contribution Eldritch Blast or nothing.
It's not that the Warlock is underpowered without full caster spell access, they're just much less interesting to play.
Eldritch blast is martial staying power. It is better than a long bow for most. And their access to spell power ISNT cut to the same as paladin or ranger. Neither of them can get a 3rd level cast at 5, a 4th at 7 or a 5th at 9 and warlock can. I was comparing first level slots that to odd ball invocations since your "power" is being shifted to invocations
The main contribution of a Ranger is longbow/crossbow attacks + Hunter's Mark. The main contribution of a Paladin is a melee weapon attack + Smite. The main contribution of Warlock is Eldritch Blast + Hex.
With the nerf to Sharpshooter the only significant difference between Longbow and Eldritch Blast is Longbow gets weapon mastery and EB gets a d10 instead of a d8.
Warlock gets Shield, Blur, Mirror Image to help them take punishment better than either the Paladin or Ranger. Warlock also gets more and higher level spells available plus a larger spell list to pick from than Paladin or Ranger.
You're confusing damage output with how interesting the class is to play. The ranger and paladin come up here not based on how much damage any of them can put out per round but how likely any of them are to being in the front lines. Part of what a player is getting out of the warrior subclass experience is being able to stay at the vanguard where the game is most interesting. Full spellcasters get to nova with high level spells while expert classes can find ways around a problem.
The warlock is relegated to a worse off version of both. They've neither got the endurance nor melee power to be where the action is, nor is their spell list good enough now to warrant a nova action. They can cast a high value spell but they'll never grant the benefits that a real caster can, and can't adapt to new situations.
I'm not arguing that a Warlock is nerfed out of combat usability. I'm arguing that the UA warlock isn't a fun play experience.
You're talking about damage output, I'm talking about the experience of playing the character. There's a fundamental difference between playing a martial character that supports themselves with spellcasting and the one-trick pony like the UA warlock.
I don't know what I said to warrant that tone from you, but I think we're done here.
UA warlock is far from a one-trick pony. It's got a lot more tricks up it's sleeve than the current warlock imo.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Warlock dips used to be:
1 level, Hexblade, Eldritch Blast, medium armor and shields, charisma as your combat stat for melee with non-two-handed/heavy weapons, the Shield spell. Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin
2 levels, Hexblade, as above plus Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast/some other invocation of your choice.
3 levels, Hexblade, as above plus Pact of the Blade and Improved Pact Weapon. They also got two level 2 Pact slots.
With the revised Warlock rules it's just
1 level, medium armour, charisma OR wisdom as your combat stat for melee with non-heavy weapons, summonable weapons, the Shield spell. Sorcerer/Bard/Paladin/Cleric/Ranger.
1 level, medium armour, intelligence OR wisdom, pact of the tome for two free cantrips and ritual spells. Wizard/Cleric, maybe Artificer.
Because of the way half-casters round down now you don't even lose spell slot progression, you just put spell levels 1 level behind. Sure, Eldritch Blast isn't going to help you much, but you can upcast Hex (if you've nothing better to do) with Sorcerer/Bard/Cleric much faster than Warlock can.
So Warlock dips, for the most part, actually became better, not worse.
Well Yes, but also no. A big part of the reason the dip existed before was for martial characters like Paladin to get access to single attribute attack bonuses and for Casters to get access to EB+AB. The EB+AB combo is dead because of how it scales with warlock levels now and the access to single attribute is less valuable due to the feats all becoming half feats and not offering Charisma or wisdom as a bump options so those martial classes are likely taking those feats that bump their dex or strength anyway making their attacks relying on cha or wisdom much less valuable. A full caster really doesn't have a reason to dip warlock, but a half caster, or an eldritch knight or arcane trickster rogue might still do so, but it is the feats that make it less appealing.
I'd say they became easier, not better. The 1 level warlock dip is bad for the game imo.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Easier due to the fact that it can be Int, wis or Cha ya, but worse in most respects. Casters aren't going to do it now because there really isn't anything they get from a 1 or 2 level dip where before cha casters would dip for EB+AB to get close to martial damage on a full caster. Paladin would dip Hexblade specifically for Cha as an attack stat, same with things like swords bard. It isn't weaker to do now, but there is much less incentive to do so now. First the option IS a little weaker because you only get the CHA bonus to attack with the pact weapon you summon not all attacks and the pact weapon MUST be a non-heavy weapon, which the most damaging weapons are heavy weapons. Second the feats like charger and the like that weapon wielders are going to want to take bump strength or dex already which makes the incentive to use CHA or WIS for your attack much lower and much less rewarding by comparison to just taking the feats and level dips of OTHER classes. I really suggest looking at and trying to build a concept using the 1 level dip of warlock through to level 9 vs just taking the class to level 9, I think you will find that you aren't actually getting a lot of value for that 1 level warlock dip as you may think.
For example Paladin, You need a minimum of 13 strength to multi-class here anyway and a minimum 15 strength to wear the heaviest armor. So you are going to be putting points into strength already, then as you level up the feats you are going to want to take to bump your damage are all going to bump your strength and not your charisma. By level 9 you could have 2 good feats and a 19 in strength and still have a 16 Cha, OR you could have a 20 CHA use your CHA modifier for attacks, but still have a 15 strength and have no feats that bump your damage and be forced to use a non-heavy martial weapon, so no great sword or great axe or anything. Ranger same thing you aren't getting two weapons only one so two weapon fighting isn't going to work that great for you, you can't get a ranged weapon so your bow still needs to use your dex, you are still going to want a minimum of 14 dex anyway for AC and same thing with the feats situation. Monk is probably the only martial that should really consider it, but their unarmed strikes won't scale with the wisdom only their simple weapon attacks, but it would allow them to focus on wisdom instead of dex early on allowing for higher save DC's as, until level 11 a staff or a spear would do the same as their unarmed strike anyway.
I view it as more incentive. Bard and Paladin are still going to do it to be SAD, casters will do it for the easy access to medium armor without delaying spell level progression (and maybe to be sad melee sorcs). Paladin in particular can live without the heaviest armor. Medium armor works fine and having your weapons queue off your casting stat combined with aura, there's no reason /not/ to.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha