I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
I'm just getting more confused. You think multiclassing hurts Expertise (it doesn't), you don't like being even a half-caster but you want conjure animals, you don't want magic to be the only option but Rangers get a lot of stuff beyond their spells... Whatever it is you want I'm not sure either 5e or One can give it to you without homebrew.
I think it is useless to insist on the magical theme, he will not listen to us if we agree with him, what he is looking for for ALL THE RANGERS is only something similar to Aragorn, who knows how to track, survive in nature and fight with weapons, very little magic, if possible only 1/4 or 1/3 spellcasters, and no cantrips because this ruins the idea of a ranger, who only survives by slightly exaggerated mundane abilities but without depending on magic because he has almost none.
Yes, when they wanted to make the rangers a little more competitive, they lost a lot of unique and attractive things that gave the class flavor, instead of maintaining them but making it much less circumstantial and dependent on the MASTER and his adventure giving him opportunities to win. exploit them (and after this if he still lacked strength improve / enhance or add details so that he does not lag behind the rest of the classes.). But sticking with the cantrips thinking that it's partly their fault that you lose your essence, I don't think it's appropriate and accurate.
For my part, I will stop insisting on the issue of magic, we will not get anywhere and we will surely misrepresent the issue by discussing who is right.
For me, I really wanted the h.i.p.s camo suit to be fixed. camo as a concept just seems more fun than nature's veil (also less resource dependant since many other features now require spells for that same functionality)
I also really liked ignoring difficult terrain (even just the magic plants one but travel as well) other classes and spells provided movement options(+10ft) but those are still halved under difficult terrain. Leave movement bonus to those that want it. Rangers should have a stable movement as it's one of the more common archetype signals.
Wotc never really tried rebalance for phb features but instead changed it outright. A mistake IMO.
For me, I really wanted the h.i.p.s camo suit to be fixed. camo as a concept just seems more fun than nature's veil (also less resource dependant since many other features now require spells for that same functionality)
I also really liked ignoring difficult terrain (even just the magic plants one but travel as well) other classes and spells provided movement options(+10ft) but those are still halved under difficult terrain. Leave movement bonus to those that want it. Rangers should have a stable movement as it's one of the more common archetype signals.
Wotc never really tried rebalance for phb features but instead changed it outright. A mistake IMO.
I think it is useless to insist on the magical theme, he will not listen to us if we agree with him, what he is looking for for ALL THE RANGERS is only something similar to Aragorn, who knows how to track, survive in nature and fight with weapons, very little magic, if possible only 1/4 or 1/3 spellcasters, and no cantrips because this ruins the idea of a ranger, who only survives by slightly exaggerated mundane abilities but without depending on magic because he has almost none.
Yes, when they wanted to make the rangers a little more competitive, they lost a lot of unique and attractive things that gave the class flavor, instead of maintaining them but making it much less circumstantial and dependent on the MASTER and his adventure giving him opportunities to win. exploit them (and after this if he still lacked strength improve / enhance or add details so that he does not lag behind the rest of the classes.). But sticking with the cantrips thinking that it's partly their fault that you lose your essence, I don't think it's appropriate and accurate.
For my part, I will stop insisting on the issue of magic, we will not get anywhere and we will surely misrepresent the issue by discussing who is right.
it isn’t only that, but it is part of the problem, and if you can only solve a part, why not, and I insist on other parts too
I also want to clarify, I don’t want all rangers to be that way, but I want my ranger to be that way, and to have the choice, but with two spells as class features it becomes very hard
I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
I'm just getting more confused. You think multiclassing hurts Expertise (it doesn't), you don't like being even a half-caster but you want conjure animals, you don't want magic to be the only option but Rangers get a lot of stuff beyond their spells... Whatever it is you want I'm not sure either 5e or One can give it to you without homebrew.
I don’t mean the class feature, but the term, you know getting really good at something, I want to be a half-caster but, I repeat I want the choice, and I want the spelltype that feels like an extension of the normal features, no firebolt, but flaming arrows, that kind of things
I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
That is the way used frequently to represent the superior abilities, i.e. pass without trace for hiding while travelling, goodberry to find food, etc. Then the Ranger can choose specialization selecting the spells.
Also, you have your skills as Expertise, so you can make use i.e. of your great bonus to Survival or Animal Handling to do so many things. Many times I think that for much people the skills are just only an ignorable area on the character sheet and everything are the HP, AC, spells, attack bonus and damage dice. The skills are the core of the daily gameplay, and the Ranger can to so many things with that.
I could understand the argue about Hunter subclass only taking care of combat related, well the Ranger class already get some "ranger" abilities, like Roving, Expertise, Tireless or Nature's Veil. Maybe the Hunter by its name is much focused in combat, we have to wait for other subclasses and watch.
I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
That is the way used frequently to represent the superior abilities, i.e. pass without trace for hiding while travelling, goodberry to find food, etc. Then the Ranger can choose specialization selecting the spells.
Also, you have your skills as Expertise, so you can make use i.e. of your great bonus to Survival or Animal Handling to do so many things. Many times I think that for much people the skills are just only an ignorable area on the character sheet and everything are the HP, AC, spells, attack bonus and damage dice. The skills are the core of the daily gameplay, and the Ranger can to so many things with that.
I could understand the argue about Hunter subclass only taking care of combat related, well the Ranger class already get some "ranger" abilities, like Roving, Expertise, Tireless or Nature's Veil. Maybe the Hunter by its name is much focused in combat, we have to wait for other subclasses and watch.
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
That is the way used frequently to represent the superior abilities, i.e. pass without trace for hiding while travelling, goodberry to find food, etc. Then the Ranger can choose specialization selecting the spells.
Also, you have your skills as Expertise, so you can make use i.e. of your great bonus to Survival or Animal Handling to do so many things. Many times I think that for much people the skills are just only an ignorable area on the character sheet and everything are the HP, AC, spells, attack bonus and damage dice. The skills are the core of the daily gameplay, and the Ranger can to so many things with that.
I could understand the argue about Hunter subclass only taking care of combat related, well the Ranger class already get some "ranger" abilities, like Roving, Expertise, Tireless or Nature's Veil. Maybe the Hunter by its name is much focused in combat, we have to wait for other subclasses and watch.
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
All you describe can be achieved with your skills, and the Ranger is an Expertise class, so choose wisely your ones you want to expertise if want to be a "Ranger-like" type, usually Perception, Stealth, Survival and Animal Handling would be class related. Spells are for extraordinary ability to be used counted times.
I have to repeat, why so many people makes like if skills didn't exist? Someone should explain it to me please.
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
1. So cast it again? Rangers are hardly short of spell slots, and now that they even get free castings of Hunter's Mark you could easily spend all you slots of utility.
2. ??? What are you talking about here? Making camp happens before taking a long rest, not during it. So casting spells while making camp is exactly the same as it always was.
3. Only Ranger and Druid have access to the Primal list and their play style is radically different so I can't see any reason a druid would take any of the formerly Ranger-specific spells. Ok maybe a Moondruid would take Hunter's mark.. but all the other ranger-specific spells are useless to druids (TBH most of them are kind of bad even on a ranger so most rangers just take spells they share with druid).
I just looked in the unearthed arcana again, and without primeval awareness and the old favored enemy , tracking is broken, in phb you could first use primeval awareness, preferably in favored terrain, to notice if there are enemies in up to 6 miles, than you search for tracks, then use advantage to follow them and you have the rough number, direction, location, speed and status of the enemy. now to track an army, first you have to know what they are, then you have to cast locate creature(4th level, keep in mind primeval awareness is 1st), hope it isn’t an anti tracking trap, search for tracks, have no advantage, follow them fast, cast hunter’s mark, stay low, make sure you get into sixty feet every hour to cast it again, and then you get advantage. and advantage is needed for stealthy moving enemies, since it doubles your chances and/or neutralizes disadvantage
I don’t want to play cast-less , I just want to don’t play an armed druid
I don't understand what you're after then. If bold is correct and you don't mind having a little magic, just dip a few levels of Ranger before going rogue/barb/fighter.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
That is the way used frequently to represent the superior abilities, i.e. pass without trace for hiding while travelling, goodberry to find food, etc. Then the Ranger can choose specialization selecting the spells.
Also, you have your skills as Expertise, so you can make use i.e. of your great bonus to Survival or Animal Handling to do so many things. Many times I think that for much people the skills are just only an ignorable area on the character sheet and everything are the HP, AC, spells, attack bonus and damage dice. The skills are the core of the daily gameplay, and the Ranger can to so many things with that.
I could understand the argue about Hunter subclass only taking care of combat related, well the Ranger class already get some "ranger" abilities, like Roving, Expertise, Tireless or Nature's Veil. Maybe the Hunter by its name is much focused in combat, we have to wait for other subclasses and watch.
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
All you describe can be achieved with your skills, and the Ranger is an Expertise class, so choose wisely your ones you want to expertise if want to be a "Ranger-like" type, usually Perception, Stealth, Survival and Animal Handling would be class related. Spells are for extraordinary ability to be used counted times.
I have to repeat, why so many people makes like if skills didn't exist? Someone should explain it to me please.
Because skill use is undefined it means wild variations in what you can do with it. Some dms might give timelines and numbers of creatures while tracking some may not Because it could give clues in the next encounter. Now a phb ranger has a written out description of how their survival skills apply.(people arguing about "how it is situational" is a different discussion)
This same concept of vage skill use applies across all skills and it will never be fully an option to define its uses.
There is also a reduction in numbers of skills with expertise vs the "situational expertise" having a larger pool of wisdom and intelligence skills possibly (9 or 10 depending on builds) phb trades quantity of skills for situational uses (people will differ on whether its worth it but some people want the option)
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
1. So cast it again? Rangers are hardly short of spell slots, and now that they even get free castings of Hunter's Mark you could easily spend all you slots of utility.
2. ??? What are you talking about here? Making camp happens before taking a long rest, not during it. So casting spells while making camp is exactly the same as it always was.
3. Only Ranger and Druid have access to the Primal list and their play style is radically different so I can't see any reason a druid would take any of the formerly Ranger-specific spells. Ok maybe a Moondruid would take Hunter's mark.. but all the other ranger-specific spells are useless to druids (TBH most of them are kind of bad even on a ranger so most rangers just take spells they share with druid).
1. You can't repeat during rest no recasting. Also Nature's veil combined with other features going the spell route means more dependacy on slot usage makes resource use lean more towards "optimal uses" that the optimizer community says nolonger becomes a choice.
2. Some rangers need their spells to make up for features that are gone. Such as detection which happens during watch. Lower wisdom build have become worse options because the "features" that made such strategies are no longer viable and in adequately replaced.
3. "No one would" is a very narrow out look. I've seen spell casting barbarians, Rouge and druid multi-class, charisma rangers. Under definined features interaction with others is one of the major causes of rules fights. It is also the source of most balance issues. So spells must be balanced as spells not as class features. So relying on spells over features means universal function. Where the ranger needed tailored detection, knowledge and other expert related use options.
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
1. So cast it again? Rangers are hardly short of spell slots, and now that they even get free castings of Hunter's Mark you could easily spend all you slots of utility.
2. ??? What are you talking about here? Making camp happens before taking a long rest, not during it. So casting spells while making camp is exactly the same as it always was.
3. Only Ranger and Druid have access to the Primal list and their play style is radically different so I can't see any reason a druid would take any of the formerly Ranger-specific spells. Ok maybe a Moondruid would take Hunter's mark.. but all the other ranger-specific spells are useless to druids (TBH most of them are kind of bad even on a ranger so most rangers just take spells they share with druid).
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
1. So cast it again? Rangers are hardly short of spell slots, and now that they even get free castings of Hunter's Mark you could easily spend all you slots of utility.
2. ??? What are you talking about here? Making camp happens before taking a long rest, not during it. So casting spells while making camp is exactly the same as it always was.
3. Only Ranger and Druid have access to the Primal list and their play style is radically different so I can't see any reason a druid would take any of the formerly Ranger-specific spells. Ok maybe a Moondruid would take Hunter's mark.. but all the other ranger-specific spells are useless to druids (TBH most of them are kind of bad even on a ranger so most rangers just take spells they share with druid).
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
Apologies, since this isn't going to neatly match up. Also, don't get all bent out of shape over a playtest document from more than six months ago. A lot can change between then and the next packet.
Spellslots are not the problem you think they are.
Since the last playtest for Ranger changed how Favored Enemy works, hunter's mark lasts for its full duration and does not require concentration. That's a solid buff, and it doesn't need to be up all the time. And if you are playing a 2014 PH Ranger, hunter's mark is always a choice. If you, personally, feel the need to cast a single spell that often, that's self-inflicted pressure.
Casting conjure barrage is the proposed Multiattack feature. It's not yet a permanent change, and it's costly while also being more flexible. Before, you had to decide between Volley and Whirlwind Attack, and each came with specific conditions, which limited the feature's usefulness. The spell simply works.
Primeval Awareness was a sore spot for a number of players, and I dare say even in your example when you sang its praises you were using it incorrectly. Odds are good you're not searching an area of 28.27 square miles to find an enemy to track, and that isn't including three dimensions. It's best when determining which threats are in the area. Six miles means they're potentially two hours away. One mile means they can be on you within 20 minutes.
You can cast cantrips during a long rest. If someone really wants to recast alarm or cordon of arrows in the middle of a long rest, then they should know what that entails. Beyond simply interrupting the long rest for that one person, cordon of arrows does not discriminate. You cannot designate "friendlies" who cannot be targeted by the spell or pass through the area without otherwise setting off the trap. Understanding and accepting risk is part of the game, so play smart.
I have no idea what point you're trying to raise, or even if you have one. You think you do, clearly, I'm just not seeing it.
I do agree that changes are probably incoming. The most recent video implied a step back towards previous design for anything that doesn't "excite" the community. However with rangers that could mean lots of different things.
rangers always have both bow and melee, look in the equipment in character creator if you don’t believe me, and utilty is one of the ranger feature core, and I know it doesn’t have to be combat, but let me say it an other way:
NON FULL-CASTERS HAVE FEATURES, FULL CASTERS HAVE CANTRIPS AND HIGH LEVEL SPELLS!!!!
I don't see why cantrips being available to half-casters is some massive balance issue. As I pointed out in my post most combat applications of cantrips aren't as good as just using your dedicated weapon specialty in terms of damage. Half-casters will mostly just want them for small little bits of magic utility they can rely on for flavor and utility. The thing that balances half-casters vs casters is their much slower spell progression and lack of access to the game-changing, god-like high-level spells. Giving a ranger a couple of cantrips isn't going to make them equal casters to a druid. Not by a long shot. They'll still be relying mostly on their martial weapons because cantrips, especially druid cantrips, are awful for damage.
Plus, denying ranger cantrips means they can't snag Shillelagh, which is a shame because a wilderness guide with a walking stick that serves as his primary weapon is pretty cool thematically.
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per hour of combat, that's 2-3 times per day, you get that many spellslots by level 3. So no you aren't casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for Hunter's Mark because you're run out of 1st level slots. You aren't casting Conjure Barrage to replace the old Multiattack b/c Conjure Barrage sucks. You aren't casting Locate Creature for long ranger pre-scouting, you are casting Enhance Ability then climbing a tree and making a perception check, and you are looking for footprints with a Survival check with Adv + Expertise. Alternatively you are casting Polymorph to turn into a giant eagle to fly around and scout, or someone in the party is casting Scrying or using a Familiar to scout.
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
3. Druids get only 1 attack per action, and they aren't prioritizing DEX, Thorn Whip is a ranged/melee cantrip that deals equal damage to a short bow from level 5 onwards and has a cool rider. Why would a druid use a bow? And why would they cast any of the awful arrow-based spells when they can cast something way way better like Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Erupting Earth etc... Zephyr strike is maybe useful once in a while to escape but it's costing a druid their concentration which means they have to be pretty desperate - it's also a Xanathar's spell so hardly crucial to Ranger identity. Conjuring an Animal to carry themselves out of combat or WSing is just way more effective most of the time.
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
Cordon of arrows does not do much......
Unless it gets out of combat action economy. And stacks with other stuff via planning paths.
Cordon of arrows can cover a square with caltrops and bear traps and spikegrowth.
Caltrops, cordon of arrows and bear traps also stack with poisons.
Now if only there was a class that had access to harvesting something like a flying snake with 3d4 no save damage.............
There are other rest casting options a ranger might aquire as well for watches. Darkvision, beast sense, enhance ability etc. Phb ranger traits allowed options to make up for racial choices that didn't include Darkvision.
To be clear I don't want tasha's options to go away I just want ranger specific features.
first a ranger still has better scouting/exploring things than scout/rogue, and four classes together isn’t a great situation for expertise, also I want to gain spells like conjure animals, but I don’t like to have magic as only option
I'm just getting more confused. You think multiclassing hurts Expertise (it doesn't), you don't like being even a half-caster but you want conjure animals, you don't want magic to be the only option but Rangers get a lot of stuff beyond their spells... Whatever it is you want I'm not sure either 5e or One can give it to you without homebrew.
I think it is useless to insist on the magical theme, he will not listen to us if we agree with him, what he is looking for for ALL THE RANGERS is only something similar to Aragorn, who knows how to track, survive in nature and fight with weapons, very little magic, if possible only 1/4 or 1/3 spellcasters, and no cantrips because this ruins the idea of a ranger, who only survives by slightly exaggerated mundane abilities but without depending on magic because he has almost none.
Yes, when they wanted to make the rangers a little more competitive, they lost a lot of unique and attractive things that gave the class flavor, instead of maintaining them but making it much less circumstantial and dependent on the MASTER and his adventure giving him opportunities to win. exploit them (and after this if he still lacked strength improve / enhance or add details so that he does not lag behind the rest of the classes.). But sticking with the cantrips thinking that it's partly their fault that you lose your essence, I don't think it's appropriate and accurate.
For my part, I will stop insisting on the issue of magic, we will not get anywhere and we will surely misrepresent the issue by discussing who is right.
For me, I really wanted the h.i.p.s camo suit to be fixed. camo as a concept just seems more fun than nature's veil (also less resource dependant since many other features now require spells for that same functionality)
I also really liked ignoring difficult terrain (even just the magic plants one but travel as well) other classes and spells provided movement options(+10ft) but those are still halved under difficult terrain. Leave movement bonus to those that want it. Rangers should have a stable movement as it's one of the more common archetype signals.
Wotc never really tried rebalance for phb features but instead changed it outright. A mistake IMO.
For me, I really wanted the h.i.p.s camo suit to be fixed. camo as a concept just seems more fun than nature's veil (also less resource dependant since many other features now require spells for that same functionality)
I also really liked ignoring difficult terrain (even just the magic plants one but travel as well) other classes and spells provided movement options(+10ft) but those are still halved under difficult terrain. Leave movement bonus to those that want it. Rangers should have a stable movement as it's one of the more common archetype signals.
Wotc never really tried rebalance for phb features but instead changed it outright. A mistake IMO.
it isn’t only that, but it is part of the problem, and if you can only solve a part, why not, and I insist on other parts too
I also want to clarify, I don’t want all rangers to be that way, but I want my ranger to be that way, and to have the choice, but with two spells as class features it becomes very hard
I don’t mean the class feature, but the term, you know getting really good at something, I want to be a half-caster but, I repeat I want the choice, and I want the spelltype that feels like an extension of the normal features, no firebolt, but flaming arrows, that kind of things
That is the way used frequently to represent the superior abilities, i.e. pass without trace for hiding while travelling, goodberry to find food, etc. Then the Ranger can choose specialization selecting the spells.
Also, you have your skills as Expertise, so you can make use i.e. of your great bonus to Survival or Animal Handling to do so many things. Many times I think that for much people the skills are just only an ignorable area on the character sheet and everything are the HP, AC, spells, attack bonus and damage dice. The skills are the core of the daily gameplay, and the Ranger can to so many things with that.
I could understand the argue about Hunter subclass only taking care of combat related, well the Ranger class already get some "ranger" abilities, like Roving, Expertise, Tireless or Nature's Veil. Maybe the Hunter by its name is much focused in combat, we have to wait for other subclasses and watch.
There are several factors that make spells not an equivalent option for feature replacement.
1. durations for spells often don't last as long as a whole job would. This means you have to guess when a spell is needed and might waste it.(locate creature, locate plants, enhance ability etc). A dm can arbitrarily say travel or searching or similar activity takes two hours instead of one. Time is a less stable metric in dnd than terrain locations.
2. rest casting no longer is valid. so stealth spells, detection spells, zone protection (cordon, alarm etc) while making camp is hindered. but this is often the time such things are needed.
3. spells have to be balanced around any class or subclass that can gain access rather than just the ranger skill set.
All you describe can be achieved with your skills, and the Ranger is an Expertise class, so choose wisely your ones you want to expertise if want to be a "Ranger-like" type, usually Perception, Stealth, Survival and Animal Handling would be class related. Spells are for extraordinary ability to be used counted times.
I have to repeat, why so many people makes like if skills didn't exist? Someone should explain it to me please.
1. So cast it again? Rangers are hardly short of spell slots, and now that they even get free castings of Hunter's Mark you could easily spend all you slots of utility.
2. ??? What are you talking about here? Making camp happens before taking a long rest, not during it. So casting spells while making camp is exactly the same as it always was.
3. Only Ranger and Druid have access to the Primal list and their play style is radically different so I can't see any reason a druid would take any of the formerly Ranger-specific spells. Ok maybe a Moondruid would take Hunter's mark.. but all the other ranger-specific spells are useless to druids (TBH most of them are kind of bad even on a ranger so most rangers just take spells they share with druid).
I just looked in the unearthed arcana again, and without primeval awareness and the old favored enemy , tracking is broken, in phb you could first use primeval awareness, preferably in favored terrain, to notice if there are enemies in up to 6 miles, than you search for tracks, then use advantage to follow them and you have the rough number, direction, location, speed and status of the enemy. now to track an army, first you have to know what they are, then you have to cast locate creature(4th level, keep in mind primeval awareness is 1st), hope it isn’t an anti tracking trap, search for tracks, have no advantage, follow them fast, cast hunter’s mark, stay low, make sure you get into sixty feet every hour to cast it again, and then you get advantage. and advantage is needed for stealthy moving enemies, since it doubles your chances and/or neutralizes disadvantage
Because skill use is undefined it means wild variations in what you can do with it. Some dms might give timelines and numbers of creatures while tracking some may not Because it could give clues in the next encounter. Now a phb ranger has a written out description of how their survival skills apply.(people arguing about "how it is situational" is a different discussion)
This same concept of vage skill use applies across all skills and it will never be fully an option to define its uses.
There is also a reduction in numbers of skills with expertise vs the "situational expertise" having a larger pool of wisdom and intelligence skills possibly (9 or 10 depending on builds) phb trades quantity of skills for situational uses (people will differ on whether its worth it but some people want the option)
1. You can't repeat during rest no recasting. Also Nature's veil combined with other features going the spell route means more dependacy on slot usage makes resource use lean more towards "optimal uses" that the optimizer community says nolonger becomes a choice.
2. Some rangers need their spells to make up for features that are gone. Such as detection which happens during watch. Lower wisdom build have become worse options because the "features" that made such strategies are no longer viable and in adequately replaced.
3. "No one would" is a very narrow out look. I've seen spell casting barbarians, Rouge and druid multi-class, charisma rangers. Under definined features interaction with others is one of the major causes of rules fights. It is also the source of most balance issues. So spells must be balanced as spells not as class features. So relying on spells over features means universal function. Where the ranger needed tailored detection, knowledge and other expert related use options.
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
Apologies, since this isn't going to neatly match up. Also, don't get all bent out of shape over a playtest document from more than six months ago. A lot can change between then and the next packet.
I do agree that changes are probably incoming. The most recent video implied a step back towards previous design for anything that doesn't "excite" the community. However with rangers that could mean lots of different things.
I don't see why cantrips being available to half-casters is some massive balance issue. As I pointed out in my post most combat applications of cantrips aren't as good as just using your dedicated weapon specialty in terms of damage. Half-casters will mostly just want them for small little bits of magic utility they can rely on for flavor and utility. The thing that balances half-casters vs casters is their much slower spell progression and lack of access to the game-changing, god-like high-level spells. Giving a ranger a couple of cantrips isn't going to make them equal casters to a druid. Not by a long shot. They'll still be relying mostly on their martial weapons because cantrips, especially druid cantrips, are awful for damage.
Plus, denying ranger cantrips means they can't snag Shillelagh, which is a shame because a wilderness guide with a walking stick that serves as his primary weapon is pretty cool thematically.
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per hour of combat, that's 2-3 times per day, you get that many spellslots by level 3. So no you aren't casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for Hunter's Mark because you're run out of 1st level slots.
You aren't casting Conjure Barrage to replace the old Multiattack b/c Conjure Barrage sucks.
You aren't casting Locate Creature for long ranger pre-scouting, you are casting Enhance Ability then climbing a tree and making a perception check, and you are looking for footprints with a Survival check with Adv + Expertise. Alternatively you are casting Polymorph to turn into a giant eagle to fly around and scout, or someone in the party is casting Scrying or using a Familiar to scout.
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
3. Druids get only 1 attack per action, and they aren't prioritizing DEX, Thorn Whip is a ranged/melee cantrip that deals equal damage to a short bow from level 5 onwards and has a cool rider. Why would a druid use a bow? And why would they cast any of the awful arrow-based spells when they can cast something way way better like Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Erupting Earth etc... Zephyr strike is maybe useful once in a while to escape but it's costing a druid their concentration which means they have to be pretty desperate - it's also a Xanathar's spell so hardly crucial to Ranger identity. Conjuring an Animal to carry themselves out of combat or WSing is just way more effective most of the time.
Cordon of arrows does not do much......
Unless it gets out of combat action economy. And stacks with other stuff via planning paths.
Cordon of arrows can cover a square with caltrops and bear traps and spikegrowth.
Caltrops, cordon of arrows and bear traps also stack with poisons.
Now if only there was a class that had access to harvesting something like a flying snake with 3d4 no save damage.............
There are other rest casting options a ranger might aquire as well for watches. Darkvision, beast sense, enhance ability etc. Phb ranger traits allowed options to make up for racial choices that didn't include Darkvision.
To be clear I don't want tasha's options to go away I just want ranger specific features.