I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
Cordon of arrows does not do much......
Unless it gets out of combat action economy. And stacks with other stuff via planning paths.
Cordon of arrows can cover a square with caltrops and bear traps and spikegrowth.
Caltrops, cordon of arrows and bear traps also stack with poisons.
Now if only there was a class that had access to harvesting something like a flying snake with 3d4 no save damage.............
There are other rest casting options a ranger might aquire as well for watches. Darkvision, beast sense, enhance ability etc. Phb ranger traits allowed options to make up for racial choices that didn't include Darkvision.
To be clear I don't want tasha's options to go away I just want ranger specific features.
Sorry what spell are you talking about? Cordon of arrows states:
You plant four pieces of nonmagical ammunition – arrows or crossbow bolts – in the ground within range and lay magic upon them to protect an area.
So no it does not work with bear traps, caltrops or anything else. It only applies to nonmagical arrows or crossbow bolts.
Until the spell ends, whenever a creature other than you comes within 30 feet of the ammunition for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there, one piece of ammunition flies up to strike it. The creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 piercing damage. The piece of ammunition is then destroyed. The spell ends when no ammunition remains.
Notice that it doesn't make an attack roll, and no where does it say it deals damage from the ammunition so RAW it does not stack with poison. It also no where says it makes noise to wake you up, and the creature takes 0 damage on a successful save. So this spell deals on average 7 piercing damage for a 2nd level spell with no guarantee to prevent you're party being ambushed. Compare this to a wizard casting Tiny Hut as a ritual.... which is available to them at the same level.
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per hour of combat, that's 2-3 times per day, you get that many spellslots by level 3. So no you aren't casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for Hunter's Mark because you're run out of 1st level slots. You aren't casting Conjure Barrage to replace the old Multiattack b/c Conjure Barrage sucks. You aren't casting Locate Creature for long ranger pre-scouting, you are casting Enhance Ability then climbing a tree and making a perception check, and you are looking for footprints with a Survival check with Adv + Expertise. Alternatively you are casting Polymorph to turn into a giant eagle to fly around and scout, or someone in the party is casting Scrying or using a Familiar to scout.
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
3. Druids get only 1 attack per action, and they aren't prioritizing DEX, Thorn Whip is a ranged/melee cantrip that deals equal damage to a short bow from level 5 onwards and has a cool rider. Why would a druid use a bow? And why would they cast any of the awful arrow-based spells when they can cast something way way better like Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Erupting Earth etc... Zephyr strike is maybe useful once in a while to escape but it's costing a druid their concentration which means they have to be pretty desperate - it's also a Xanathar's spell so hardly crucial to Ranger identity. Conjuring an Animal to carry themselves out of combat or WSing is just way more effective most of the time.
1.ever heard of tracking, and the worthlessness of conjure barrage is my whole point, and the survival isn’t with advantage if you didn’t cast hunter mark, still enhance ability is a spell!, and costs spellslots, and is polymorph even a primal spell, and if the ranger can’t do it on its own the class feature is gone
3.really, this means you say druids get better spells, and since ranger gets that too, you still need to compare it
Alarm spell should be in Primal list for the purpose of waking you, or at least give it to Ranger as class spell, maybe with a casting time of 1 minute as ritual? (the 10 min base is good in any case).
About skills, is hard for me to think about people playing only with what is hardwritten, that reduces the RPG stuff of a character to a set of paragraphs. In other games I played the skills were mainly what you can do, lacking of hard and strict class-and-level-attached features defining the only things you can do. In D&D you can get some specific abilities and features, but that not implies the skills are there for secondary, indeed the ability checks are part of the core itself, and the skills grant bonuses to them.
That sounds me more like laziness or be too used to old D&D style (2nd ed) with few options to do things. We have the base rule about DC vs roll result, but even in DMG we have more detailed rules to set partial success and total failures to compensate the lack of tables present in other games.
It is really so hard for securing the camp a Wis (Survival) check to set the alarms/traps, and Dex (Stealth), even using passive value, for hiding them to check against intruders perception?. Securing a camp is not a exclusive-ranger-feature, anyone used to survival could do it. The Hunter usually would have Survival and Stealth as expertise skills, so with that bonus should not be hard to secure the camp, or tracking as uses Survival.
Alarm spell should be in Primal list for the purpose of waking you, or at least give it to Ranger as class spell, maybe with a casting time of 1 minute as ritual? (the 10 min base is good in any case).
About skills, is hard for me to think about people playing only with what is hardwritten, that reduces the RPG stuff of a character to a set of paragraphs. In other games I played the skills were mainly what you can do, lacking of hard and strict class-and-level-attached features defining the only things you can do. In D&D you can get some specific abilities and features, but that not implies the skills are there for secondary, indeed the ability checks are part of the core itself, and the skills grant bonuses to them.
That sounds me more like laziness or be too used to old D&D style (2nd ed) with few options to do things. We have the base rule about DC vs roll result, but even in DMG we have more detailed rules to set partial success and total failures to compensate the lack of tables present in other games.
It is really so hard for securing the camp a Wis (Survival) check to set the alarms/traps, and Dex (Stealth), even using passive value, for hiding them to check against intruders perception?. Securing a camp is not a exclusive-ranger-feature, anyone used to survival could do it. The Hunter usually would have Survival and Stealth as expertise skills, so with that bonus should not be hard to secure the camp, or tracking as uses Survival.
“is it” not “it is”, unless you mean to agree with us.and against strong enemies yes it is,mention there is no feature for such a thing in fifth
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per hour of combat, that's 2-3 times per day, you get that many spellslots by level 3. So no you aren't casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for Hunter's Mark because you're run out of 1st level slots. You aren't casting Conjure Barrage to replace the old Multiattack b/c Conjure Barrage sucks. You aren't casting Locate Creature for long ranger pre-scouting, you are casting Enhance Ability then climbing a tree and making a perception check, and you are looking for footprints with a Survival check with Adv + Expertise. Alternatively you are casting Polymorph to turn into a giant eagle to fly around and scout, or someone in the party is casting Scrying or using a Familiar to scout.
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
3. Druids get only 1 attack per action, and they aren't prioritizing DEX, Thorn Whip is a ranged/melee cantrip that deals equal damage to a short bow from level 5 onwards and has a cool rider. Why would a druid use a bow? And why would they cast any of the awful arrow-based spells when they can cast something way way better like Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Erupting Earth etc... Zephyr strike is maybe useful once in a while to escape but it's costing a druid their concentration which means they have to be pretty desperate - it's also a Xanathar's spell so hardly crucial to Ranger identity. Conjuring an Animal to carry themselves out of combat or WSing is just way more effective most of the time.
1.ever heard of tracking, and the worthlessness of conjure barrage is my whole point, and the survival isn’t with advantage if you didn’t cast hunter mark, still enhance ability is a spell!, and costs spellslots, and is polymorph even a primal spell, and if the ranger can’t do it on its own the class feature is gone
3.really, this means you say druids get better spells, and since ranger gets that too, you still need to compare it
1. Enhance ability gives you Adv on survival and perception regardless of terrain and applicable to unlimited types of checks and doesn't require you to be within 90 ft of the creature at some point to track it, thus almost always better than Hunter's Mark or favoured terrain/favoured foe. Tracking is a niche ribbon to Hunter's Mark not its primary use, because if you could cast Hunter's Mark on your target you almost always could have killed / captured them, so why do you need to track them?
3. Ranger: Lightning Arrow = 4d6 lightning to 1 target and 2d6 lightning in 10ft radius once for the cost of 1 attack + 1 bonus action + concentration + 3rd level slot.
Druid: Call Lightning = 3d10 lightning in a 5ft radius every round as an action at the cost of 3rd level slot + concentration. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Cordon of Arrows = 1d6 x 4 for 8 hours for enemies approaching your camp, for a 2nd level spell
Druid: Plant Growth = 100ft radius around your camp is ultra difficult terrain indefinitely, for a 3rd level spell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Barrage = 1x 3d8 non-magical bludgeoning in a 60 ft cone for a 3rd level slot.
Druid: Erupting Earth = 1x 3d12 magical bludgeoning in a 20 ft cube for a 3rd level slot + difficult terrain.
Druid: Spike Growth = unlimited 2d4 magical piercing in a 20ft radius for a 2nd level slot + concentration + difficult terrain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Volley = 1x 40ft radius x 20 ft high 8d8 nonmagical piercing damage for a 5th level spell.
Druid: Cone of Cold = 60ft cone 8d8 cold damage for a 5th level spell
Druid: Malestrom = 30ft radius repeated 6d6 magical bludgeoning damage for a 5th level spell + concentration + pull effect + difficult terrain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Swift Quiver = 2 extra ranged attacks per turn costing 5th level spell + concentration + BA each turn
Druid: Conjure Elemental = 2 extra melee attacks + bag of hit points costing 5th level spell + concentration
Druid: Conjure Animals = 4-8 extra melee attacks + many bags of hit points costing 3rd level spell + concentration
PS Yes Polymorph is on the Primal Spell list, as at a tone of cool spells ranger now gets access to.
That's not a completely accurate statement. Pedantically, while (in the latest play test) casting a spell does interrupt a Long Rest, it's also true that "You can resume a Long Rest immediately after an interruption. If you do so, the rest requires 1 additional hour to finish per interruption." So your interruption for casting a spell just adds an hour to your Long Rest. It doesn't waste the Long Rest/etc. While at camp, you can re-cast such a spell, and all you've lost for doing so is an extra hour in camp.
So, even IF you needed to re-cast Snare, Non-Detection, Darkvision, Cordon of Arrows, Alarm, etc. mid-rest (after you cast them between making camp and starting your long rest), it only costs you an hour of extending your Long Rest to do so.
It's only a problem if you're having to re-cast several such spells, and your DM is pedantic about it (counting each casting as a separate interruption instead of considering one continuous set of events as a single interruption). But then, if they're being that pedantic, then each time you get hit and take damage during a mid-rest-combat will also add an hour, plus the hour added by the initiative roll that starts the combat. A combat interruption is going to extend your rest a lot more than one recasting of Non-Detection will.
I know this wasn’t a direct reaction to a post of mine, but I want to say a few things about it
1.actually yes, they are very short of spellslots when you play the ranger hunter, you have to cast hunter’s mark an almost(not free at all) unbelievable amount of times, and you also have to cast conjure barrage to replace the old multiattack, add the fact primeval awareness is gone, so you need locate creature for long range pre-scouting, and you have very many burned spellslots, change a few features more and your normal spells can’t be used
2.yes, but I like roscoeivan said, you can’t cast during rest so you can’t recast, and I hope the camp enlast the whole rest, since not all spells last eight hours
3. the arrow magic things, zephyr strike and alike can help druids forced into combat, especially zephyr strike combined with other speed raising things, like mobile, the form of a fast animal and dash can create very high speed to get out of combat, and the arrow spells and alike can make range viable, so it is a very big change, and still primal spells can be the same as arcane and divine, and so you need to compare it too, and you have the whole bard borrowing spells
1. You cast Hunter's Mark once per hour of combat, that's 2-3 times per day, you get that many spellslots by level 3. So no you aren't casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for Hunter's Mark because you're run out of 1st level slots. You aren't casting Conjure Barrage to replace the old Multiattack b/c Conjure Barrage sucks. You aren't casting Locate Creature for long ranger pre-scouting, you are casting Enhance Ability then climbing a tree and making a perception check, and you are looking for footprints with a Survival check with Adv + Expertise. Alternatively you are casting Polymorph to turn into a giant eagle to fly around and scout, or someone in the party is casting Scrying or using a Familiar to scout.
2. Those spells last 8 hour which is a full rest. If you are interrupted so severely that you are moving your camp then you're rest has been interrupted already regardless of rest-casting rules. Cordon of Arrows also sucks see above.
3. Druids get only 1 attack per action, and they aren't prioritizing DEX, Thorn Whip is a ranged/melee cantrip that deals equal damage to a short bow from level 5 onwards and has a cool rider. Why would a druid use a bow? And why would they cast any of the awful arrow-based spells when they can cast something way way better like Conjure Animals, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Erupting Earth etc... Zephyr strike is maybe useful once in a while to escape but it's costing a druid their concentration which means they have to be pretty desperate - it's also a Xanathar's spell so hardly crucial to Ranger identity. Conjuring an Animal to carry themselves out of combat or WSing is just way more effective most of the time.
1.ever heard of tracking, and the worthlessness of conjure barrage is my whole point, and the survival isn’t with advantage if you didn’t cast hunter mark, still enhance ability is a spell!, and costs spellslots, and is polymorph even a primal spell, and if the ranger can’t do it on its own the class feature is gone
3.really, this means you say druids get better spells, and since ranger gets that too, you still need to compare it
1. Enhance ability gives you Adv on survival and perception regardless of terrain and applicable to unlimited types of checks and doesn't require you to be within 90 ft of the creature at some point to track it, thus almost always better than Hunter's Mark or favoured terrain/favoured foe. Tracking is a niche ribbon to Hunter's Mark not its primary use, because if you could cast Hunter's Mark on your target you almost always could have killed / captured them, so why do you need to track them?
3. Ranger: Lightning Arrow = 4d6 lightning to 1 target and 2d6 lightning in 10ft radius once for the cost of 1 attack + 1 bonus action + concentration + 3rd level slot.
Druid: Call Lightning = 3d10 lightning in a 5ft radius every round as an action at the cost of 3rd level slot + concentration. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Cordon of Arrows = 1d6 x 4 for 8 hours for enemies approaching your camp, for a 2nd level spell
Druid: Plant Growth = 100ft radius around your camp is ultra difficult terrain indefinitely, for a 3rd level spell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Barrage = 1x 3d8 non-magical bludgeoning in a 60 ft cone for a 3rd level slot.
Druid: Erupting Earth = 1x 3d12 magical bludgeoning in a 20 ft cube for a 3rd level slot + difficult terrain.
Druid: Spike Growth = unlimited 2d4 magical piercing in a 20ft radius for a 2nd level slot + concentration + difficult terrain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Volley = 1x 40ft radius x 20 ft high 8d8 nonmagical piercing damage for a 5th level spell.
Druid: Cone of Cold = 60ft cone 8d8 cold damage for a 5th level spell
Druid: Malestrom = 30ft radius repeated 6d6 magical bludgeoning damage for a 5th level spell + concentration + pull effect + difficult terrain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Swift Quiver = 2 extra ranged attacks per turn costing 5th level spell + concentration + BA each turn
Druid: Conjure Elemental = 2 extra melee attacks + bag of hit points costing 5th level spell + concentration
Druid: Conjure Animals = 4-8 extra melee attacks + many bags of hit points costing 3rd level spell + concentration
PS Yes Polymorph is on the Primal Spell list, as at a tone of cool spells ranger now gets access to.
sorry, I forgot that survival part,but the seeking part can include reminding how enemie act
I didn’t say ranger get better spells, but since that spells and the ability to cast them at high level aren’t included in the trade-for-feature things, so comparing spells that alway are prepared free as class feature with normal spells, means the features were better, since roscoeivan point was you should compare them.
may I note that the 5th lvl spell aoe of the ranger is the best, and in the original post of this thread one of my points was the worthlessness of conjure barrage
This is still a no "one ever would argument" I could break down how it's a forgone opinion and not an absolute conclusion.
In the end I want the game to allow filling in playstyle gaps. Trap masters and uniqueness to ranger are necessary places to fill. Even if there are various approaches.
However "that isn't needed" or my "narrative should dictate yours" is bad no matter if you like or hate the design tradeoffs of the phb.
The other thing one dnd seems to be doing well is clearing up the language. So people who believe taking a "strike" then damage is not doing damage can finally sleep at night.
We have definitely gotten into the weeds here. One D&D Ranger is good, and is better than 5e Ranger. Yes the Conjure Barrage feature is awful but everything else about it is really good, because it has access to the full Primal spell list and more spells prepared (and the ability to swap them on a LR) they have way more tools in their toolbelt for adapting to whatever environment they happen to be in at the moment rather than being stuck with features that only work in one type of terrain or against one particular type of enemy.
Sharing the formerly Ranger-specific spells with Druid does not undermine Ranger-identity because Druid is not weapon-oriented at all so the Ranger-specific spells just don't work for them and ranger-specific spells (other than Hunter's Mark) are pretty bad so were never class-defining aspects - this is unlike Cleric & Paladin because there are many Cleric class features and Cleric subclasses that orient them towards weapon-based combat.
Ranger has always been a skill-oriented class so gaining expertise and Enhance Ability actually support the class identity of Ranger.
We have definitely gotten into the weeds here. One D&D Ranger is good, and is better than 5e Ranger. Yes the Conjure Barrage feature is awful but everything else about it is really good, because it has access to the full Primal spell list and more spells prepared (and the ability to swap them on a LR) they have way more tools in their toolbelt for adapting to whatever environment they happen to be in at the moment rather than being stuck with features that only work in one type of terrain or against one particular type of enemy.
Sharing the formerly Ranger-specific spells with Druid does not undermine Ranger-identity because Druid is not weapon-oriented at all so the Ranger-specific spells just don't work for them and ranger-specific spells (other than Hunter's Mark) are pretty bad so were never class-defining aspects - this is unlike Cleric & Paladin because there are many Cleric class features and Cleric subclasses that orient them towards weapon-based combat.
Ranger has always been a skill-oriented class so gaining expertise and Enhance Ability actually support the class identity of Ranger.
what is the better toolbelt, the old favored enemy bonuses are only achievable through hunter’s mark, that is only against marked enemies, and getting marked enemies is hard and costs many spellslots, and the bonuses of natural explorer are gone, just gone permanent, together with camouflage and primeval awareness, what is left in the space are roving at 7th level and nature’s veil, roving is +10 speed and climbing speed, not a realy unique ability and nature’s veil is expending a spellslot on one round invisibility
Expertise is better than Favoured Enemy from level 5 onwards b/c the average increase in the result is the same and Expertise can stack with tons of other buffs and Expertise applies to all checks not just the very narrow case of tracking one particular type of enemy. Advantage on skill checks is a really weak feature because someone in the party taking the Help action give you the same thing. Ranger also have Hunter's Mark and Enhance ability to give themselves advantage if their party members are totally useless and don't use the Help action.
Natural Explorer almost never comes up in game play, so who cares if it is gone? Ignoring difficult terrain while traveling only matters if you are on a time crunch and are in the terrain you happen to have chosen and there is no road taking you where you want to go. Buying a map, climbing a tree and having expertise in survival also effectively negates the chance of getting lost. In a party based game, you'll never be traveling alone. And access to Goodberry means you never need to forage for food.
Pass without Trace is simply better and more practical than camoflage and the ability to use a skill check to make camoflage remains for all people. - why do you need a class feature to say you an do a thing that any decent DM would let you do anyway?
Primeval Awareness is nearly useless because it gives you so little information, made worse by the increase in non-humanoid player race options. Oh you're trying to track down a evil Fey? Hope you don't have a Satyr in the party of your Primeval Awareness is now completely useless. Looking for a vampire? Hope you don't have a Reborn or Dhampir in the party. It also doesn't tell you where or how many of them are there, so e.g. in a busy city or town it is completely useless again, in a cave system or dungeon filled with baddies it is useless again. Looking for an army of undead approaching the city, well you better hope there are no ghosts haunting any abandoned ruins. And even if you do sense something with it, you've still got to make an succeed on a survival check to find them anyway, which you could just have done in the first place and skip the whole Primeval Awareness thing.
The toolbelt is the ability to swap in and out spells depending on the environment. To pick up Water Breathing or Walk on Water if you're heading to sunken ruins, or to take Plant Growth if exploring a forest, or to take Faerie Fire if you're hunting something that can turn invisible, or swapping it out for Ensnaring Strike if you're hunting something that can fly that you need to ground for the melees in the party. It is grabbing Moonbeam if you're fighting werewolves or vampires, taking Goodberry and Create Water when crossing a desert, or snagging Fog Cloud and Pass without Trace if you need to sneak up on something. Picking up Snare if you're in a situation to set an ambush, Warding Wind if adventuring into places filled with toxic gases like volcanic regions. It is taking Protection against Poison when the party is heading into a swamp or hunting a venomous creature / green dragon, but swapping to Daylight when venturing into the Underdark or Shadowfell, it is grabbing Sleetstorm when attacking a cult of mages but taking Heat Metal if going up against some big dudes in armour. It is preparing Wall of Water when you're venturing to the Plane of Fire, but Control Water when venturing to the Plane of Water, or Stone Shape when venturing to the Plane of Earth.
Again I don't think we'll ever convince you of the value of features you are unwilling to explore. Vague "situational" claims are designed to end discussions rather than understand the actual frequency or quantify their value.
However the one ranger doesn't even hold up to the standard presented with the other experts in one dnd.
Leaving combat out of the equation:
Bards have expertise + jack of all trades
Rogues have expertise +reliable talent
Rangers just have expertise with no unique traits.
( note previously they had potential to stack advantage and "expertise" and unique riders ...creating a degree of skill based on quantifiable familiarity)
Expertise is better than Favoured Enemy from level 5 onwards b/c the average increase in the result is the same and Expertise can stack with tons of other buffs and Expertise applies to all checks not just the very narrow case of tracking one particular type of enemy. Advantage on skill checks is a really weak feature because someone in the party taking the Help action give you the same thing. Ranger also have Hunter's Mark and Enhance ability to give themselves advantage if their party members are totally useless and don't use the Help action.
Natural Explorer almost never comes up in game play, so who cares if it is gone? Ignoring difficult terrain while traveling only matters if you are on a time crunch and are in the terrain you happen to have chosen and there is no road taking you where you want to go. Buying a map, climbing a tree and having expertise in survival also effectively negates the chance of getting lost. In a party based game, you'll never be traveling alone. And access to Goodberry means you never need to forage for food.
Pass without Trace is simply better and more practical than camoflage and the ability to use a skill check to make camoflage remains for all people. - why do you need a class feature to say you an do a thing that any decent DM would let you do anyway?
Primeval Awareness is nearly useless because it gives you so little information, made worse by the increase in non-humanoid player race options. Oh you're trying to track down a evil Fey? Hope you don't have a Satyr in the party of your Primeval Awareness is now completely useless. Looking for a vampire? Hope you don't have a Reborn or Dhampir in the party. It also doesn't tell you where or how many of them are there, so e.g. in a busy city or town it is completely useless again, in a cave system or dungeon filled with baddies it is useless again. Looking for an army of undead approaching the city, well you better hope there are no ghosts haunting any abandoned ruins. And even if you do sense something with it, you've still got to make an succeed on a survival check to find them anyway, which you could just have done in the first place and skip the whole Primeval Awareness thing.
The toolbelt is the ability to swap in and out spells depending on the environment. To pick up Water Breathing or Walk on Water if you're heading to sunken ruins, or to take Plant Growth if exploring a forest, or to take Faerie Fire if you're hunting something that can turn invisible, or swapping it out for Ensnaring Strike if you're hunting something that can fly that you need to ground for the melees in the party. It is grabbing Moonbeam if you're fighting werewolves or vampires, taking Goodberry and Create Water when crossing a desert, or snagging Fog Cloud and Pass without Trace if you need to sneak up on something. Picking up Snare if you're in a situation to set an ambush, Warding Wind if adventuring into places filled with toxic gases like volcanic regions. It is taking Protection against Poison when the party is heading into a swamp or hunting a venomous creature / green dragon, but swapping to Daylight when venturing into the Underdark or Shadowfell, it is grabbing Sleetstorm when attacking a cult of mages but taking Heat Metal if going up against some big dudes in armour. It is preparing Wall of Water when you're venturing to the Plane of Fire, but Control Water when venturing to the Plane of Water, or Stone Shape when venturing to the Plane of Earth.
yes +30% bests +100%, sure.and stop with shoving all lost things to other part members duty
I don’t mean the skill check, but I always make up the wood elf and the ranger camouflage.
notice primeval awareness doesn’t need to be an “active” check, you can also navigate through dangerous terrain, for example, if you play baldur’s gate or a homebrew avernus campaign, you can look out, there will be fiends of course, but especially since dragonborn aren’t draconian, you can look out for dragons(same in the githyanki territory), you can use it to make sure you travel safe or to look out for enemy allies, since important armies use allies
as far as I know pass without trace was an only ranger spell, and protection against poison already was shared, and even if the toolbelt grew, I repeat one of the points of roscoeivan and I had was that spells need to be compared, and druids already had them, so making them free prepared isn’t enough to trade a whole class feature, the point wasn’t the primal spells weakened ranger (they weakened their uniqueness and they destroyed the idea, I mean if you want magic play or multiclass a druid, come on, but that isn’t relevant), but freely prepared isn’t enough to be better than a feature
Again I don't think we'll ever convince you of the value of features you are unwilling to explore. Vague "situational" claims are designed to end discussions rather than understand the actual frequency or quantify their value.
However the one ranger doesn't even hold up to the standard presented with the other experts in one dnd.
Leaving combat out of the equation:
Bards have expertise + jack of all trades
Rogues have expertise +reliable talent
Rangers just have expertise with no unique traits.
( note previously they had potential to stack advantage and "expertise" and unique riders ...creating a degree of skill based on quantifiable familiarity)
Rangers have perks around things like mobility to represent travel based checks.
Rangers in one are just mechanically better. Calling something situational when it is literally situation is not a claim designed to stifle suggestion, it is just the reality of how the trait was designed.
That being said 2104 ranger had some abilities that were evocative even if they did not contribute much to the classes balance so keeping them and adding them back onto the one design I think would be a positive step.
1. Enhance ability gives you Adv on survival and perception regardless of terrain and applicable to unlimited types of checks and doesn't require you to be within 90 ft of the creature at some point to track it, thus almost always better than Hunter's Mark or favoured terrain/favoured foe. Tracking is a niche ribbon to Hunter's Mark not its primary use, because if you could cast Hunter's Mark on your target you almost always could have killed / captured them, so why do you need to track them?
3. Ranger: Lightning Arrow = 4d6 lightning to 1 target and 2d6 lightning in 10ft radius once for the cost of 1 attack + 1 bonus action + concentration + 3rd level slot.
Druid: Call Lightning = 3d10 lightning in a 5ft radius every round as an action at the cost of 3rd level slot + concentration. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Cordon of Arrows = 1d6 x 4 for 8 hours for enemies approaching your camp, for a 2nd level spell
Druid: Plant Growth = 100ft radius around your camp is ultra difficult terrain indefinitely, for a 3rd level spell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Barrage = 1x 3d8 non-magical bludgeoning in a 60 ft cone for a 3rd level slot.
Druid: Erupting Earth = 1x 3d12 magical bludgeoning in a 20 ft cube for a 3rd level slot + difficult terrain.
Druid: Spike Growth = unlimited 2d4 magical piercing in a 20ft radius for a 2nd level slot + concentration + difficult terrain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Volley = 1x 40ft radius x 20 ft high 8d8 nonmagical piercing damage for a 5th level spell.
Druid: Cone of Cold = 60ft cone 8d8 cold damage for a 5th level spell
Druid: Malestrom = 30ft radius repeated 6d6 magical bludgeoning damage for a 5th level spell + concentration + pull effect + difficult terrain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Swift Quiver = 2 extra ranged attacks per turn costing 5th level spell + concentration + BA each turn
Druid: Conjure Elemental = 2 extra melee attacks + bag of hit points costing 5th level spell + concentration
Druid: Conjure Animals = 4-8 extra melee attacks + many bags of hit points costing 3rd level spell + concentration
PS Yes Polymorph is on the Primal Spell list, as at a tone of cool spells ranger now gets access to.
Sorry, but I have to weigh in on this. The urge is too great.
If you're comparing call lightning to lightning arrow, then be aware it requires two turns for the former to overtake the latter in sheer damage. Except that's not entirely accurate, since the ranger is also making weapon attacks. They have Extra Attack, which means there's more potential damage we aren't including. I'll admit, I don't like the spell very much. I think it's costly for an all-or-nothing shot; rather than something smaller which can last the entire minute. It's basically a smite spell designed exclusively for ranged attacks. But over even three rounds of combat, which (right or wrong) is the standard assumption, it's solid.
The damage from conjure barrage and conjure volley is magical because the damage comes from the spell; not the nonmagical ammunition consumed as a material component. What the ammunition does is determine the damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) of the spell's effect. And I'd also like to draw attention to those areas of effect. If you're using the rules from the DMG, the 60-foot cone of conjure barrage hits the same number of targets as cone of cold (six), and conjure volley hits even more. The damage is comparable; with those ranger spells typically pulling ahead in raw numbers.
You can break the action economy with conjure animals, and conjure elemental comes with the risk of losing control should concentration ever be broken. More to the point, a container under the effect of swift quiver can duplicate any nonmagical ammunition; including anything adamantine or silvered. Judging by the text, I'd say it can even duplicate poisoned arrows since poison isn't inherently magical. That gives it setup and power beyond what most people consider, I think. Admittedly, this also highlights the ranger's reliance on the DM; moreso than most other classes. You need to have access to that poison, and that isn't guaranteed.
Something Tasha's, and now the playtest, are trying to rectify by attempting to "DM-proof" classes, features, and traits. Unfortunately, this may also stifle creativity at the table. We shouldn't want that.
The mobility is combat oriented mobility not travel related because of the exception based travel rules. Also the replacement of "ignoring difficult terrain" with bonus to with "flat movement"... Directly is a drop in archetype mechanics. The guide, explorer, or tracking jobs that deliberately prefer "ranger" are no longer justified. A monk with its mobility(and purchased expertise ) should not be a better fit than ranger.
So mobility bonus is not a good secondary trait door defining experts.
Again "mechanically better" is such a vague term. (Just like situational). The one ranger focused on combat simplicity and reliability. (Which can be Admiral goals) it is designed for general appeal but doesn't support its archetypes well enough.
In The dragon warrior series some people love the poison needle while others hate it. (Insta kill or 1hp damage no middle ground) to call it "useless" because it misses or does little damage is ignoring the whole picture. It would be bad if the needle was the only option but so would its removal. It fills a gap at different parts of the experience.
I am not opposed to people saying things are "too situational" if they can back it up with accurate support. It's just some people turn it into truism arguments or unequal comparisons.
A beastmaster ranger with a beast favored enemy has 100% access to their favored enemy skill. Now you probably say I just made an unfair comparison and you would be right. Just like how others use "useless" or "situational" or cherry picked comparisons to skew points in their favor.
Help is not equal to advantage because it cuts out action economy out of the talk. Even outside of combat action economy matters. Using help means your not ritual casting or "Remaining alert "
Not to mention help as too powerful is bad design. Skills use in particular should require both to be trained to function.
Combat or tracking uses for primeval awareness ignore preparation and safety benefits. Negative information vs positive information have different value sets.
Saying part time expertise is flat out worse than expertise usually forgets the extra skills and tools it works with. I had expert "bonuses" in 9 skills in on one day as a phb ranger but then the next adventure I only had 1. Was it a good trade off.. maybe. I find I want arcana, and investigation just as much as survival or nature.
However, one dnd absolutely removes the possibility of that choice and doesn't give much in return for people who want character mechanics.
Pre-one dnd many people who enjoyed rangers didn't even use hunter's mark. They made HM more accessible but if it still isn't what they desire it won't make It "better."
I for one would rather have concentration free beast sense than hunter's mark.
I can't speak for anyone but myself and people who have informed me of what they want but one dnd missed the mark. The highest ranger satisfaction was when players got both tashas and phb to mix and match. A few tweaks to the phb design while retaining intent would increase satisfaction even more.
That doesn't guarantee it being magical, several spells specify that they deal nonmagical damage (see Wrath of Nature for one off the top of my head). The spell says it requires non-magical ammunition and the damage dealt is the same type as that ammunition thus would be non-magical. I agree this is stupid and might not be what is intended but RAW that's what it says.
call lightning to lightning arrow, then be aware it requires two turns for the former to overtake the latter in sheer damage
Depends, but generally no. (I'm ignoring saves here b/c they are identical for the two spells). Lightning arrow does not deal weapon damage, it only deals 4d8 single-target damage = 18 lightning
In terms of single-target damage on a character with 2 attacks per action, Lightning arrow slightly better Hunter's Mark, but significantly better than Call Lightning: 2x longbow + Hunter's Mark = 2d8+2*DEX+2d6 = 9+6+7 = 22 Lightning arrow + 1x longbow = 4d8+1d8+DEX = 18+4.5+3 = 25.5 Call lightning deals 3d10 single-target damage = 16.5 lightning
This is before considering that with Archery, your weapon attacks are much more likely to hit than enemies are to fail against a saving throw (depending on the enemy AC).
In terms of AoE damage, Lightning arrow is worse than Call Lightning: Assuming only 2 enemies within 5ft of each other: Lightning arrow = 4d8+2d8 = 27 lightning Call Lightning = 6d10 = 33 lightning
This means you need at least 1 extra target within the radius Lightning Arrow than the radius of Call Lightning, but note that Call Lightning has more freedom w.r.t to targeting (to e.g. avoid your allies who are fighting the same enemies in melee) whereas Lightning arrow must target a creature and hits everyone around them including your friends..
Actually scratch that I wasn't fully accounting for Lightning Arrows mechanics (because no body uses it b/c it is bad).
Case 1: single-target damage Given character with 70% chance to hit, 2 attacks per round and a generic longbow, and +4 DEX, vs an enemy with 50% chance to save on a Dex save. Hunter's Mark + Longbow = 0.7*(4.5+4+3.5)*2 = 16.8 average DPR Lightning Arrow + Longbow = 0.7*(18 + 4.5 + 4) = 18.55 DPR Call Lightning = 0.5*3*5.5 + 0.5*0.5*3*5.5 = 12.4 DPR
Lightning Arrow is marginally better than Hunter's Mark, and as soon as you add a +1 longbow will be worse than Hunter's Mark. But significantly better than Call Lightning if you have 2 attacks. For a druid, Call Lightning is always superior since they do not have 2 attacks.
Case 2: 2 targets within 5ft of each other + 1 ally within 5ft of at least one of those targets. Lightning Arrow = 0.7*(18+4.5+4) + 0.75*9 = 25 DPR to enemies + 4-7 DPR to allies Call Lightning = 0.75*6*5.5 = 25 DPR to enemies + 0 DPR to allies
Against Multiple enemies Lightning Arrow and Call Lightning are either at parity or Call Lightning is superior depending on the nitty gritty details.
In both of these cases there are options that do nearly equal single-turn DPR as Lightning Arrow that also have sustained damage with similar or lesser costs in terms of resources.
Actually scratch that I wasn't fully accounting for Lightning Arrows mechanics (because no body uses it b/c it is bad).
Case 1: single-target damage Given character with 70% chance to hit, 2 attacks per round and a generic longbow, and +4 DEX, vs an enemy with 50% chance to save on a Dex save. Hunter's Mark + Longbow = 0.7*(4.5+4+3.5)*2 = 16.8 average DPR Lightning Arrow + Longbow = 0.7*(18 + 4.5 + 4) = 18.55 DPR Call Lightning = 0.5*3*5.5 + 0.5*0.5*3*5.5 = 12.4 DPR
Lightning Arrow is marginally better than Hunter's Mark, and as soon as you add a +1 longbow will be worse than Hunter's Mark. But significantly better than Call Lightning if you have 2 attacks. For a druid, Call Lightning is always superior since they do not have 2 attacks.
Case 2: 2 targets within 5ft of each other + 1 ally within 5ft of at least one of those targets. Lightning Arrow = 0.7*(18+4.5+4) + 0.75*9 = 25 DPR to enemies + 4-7 DPR to allies Call Lightning = 0.75*6*5.5 = 25 DPR to enemies + 0 DPR to allies
Against Multiple enemies Lightning Arrow and Call Lightning are either at parity or Call Lightning is superior depending on the nitty gritty details.
In both of these cases there are options that do nearly equal single-turn DPR as Lightning Arrow that also have sustained damage with similar or lesser costs in terms of resources.
Now hold on just a minute. First off, your calculations aren't entirely correct. (More on that below.) Second, apply your magic items consistently to both sets of attacks. It's only fair; since we should be aiming (hehe) to eliminate as many variables as possible.
In which case, the DPR for two longbow shots with hunter's mark increases to 19.5; because 0.75*(4.5+4+3.5+1)*2. And the DPR for lightning arrow and a single longbow shot is 24.375; because 0.75*(18+4+1+4.5+4+1). Yeah, you read that correctly. You still add your Dexterity modifier to the damage. The spell only changes the damage type and the number of dice. You're still making a weapon attack with the longbow, not a spell attack, so you still add your ability modifier to the damage roll. This means it can benefit from Sharpshooter, adding +10 more lightning damage, and can land a critical hit. That last part should not have escaped your notice.
Also, look at both spells again. You can't target a single creature with call lightning. It's a 5-foot AoE; centered on a point if you're playing on a grid. But lightning arrow targets a creature, and then it hits targets within 10-feet. And the point of origin is the target, not a point in space. The "area of effect" is functionally a 25-foot square, and a cube if their airborne. That, if you adhere to the suggestion in the DMG for abstract play, is five targets. That's five more enemies which can be hit for another 2d8 lightning damage; including the initial target. And it's five times as many targets as suggested for call lightning.
You're underselling the spell because you don't understand it. And I don't think you're alone in your assessment. I just think that's sad, and I want the record to show how it works properly.
1. Enhance ability gives you Adv on survival and perception regardless of terrain and applicable to unlimited types of checks and doesn't require you to be within 90 ft of the creature at some point to track it, thus almost always better than Hunter's Mark or favoured terrain/favoured foe. Tracking is a niche ribbon to Hunter's Mark not its primary use, because if you could cast Hunter's Mark on your target you almost always could have killed / captured them, so why do you need to track them?
3. Ranger: Lightning Arrow = 4d6 lightning to 1 target and 2d6 lightning in 10ft radius once for the cost of 1 attack + 1 bonus action + concentration + 3rd level slot.
Druid: Call Lightning = 3d10 lightning in a 5ft radius every round as an action at the cost of 3rd level slot + concentration. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Cordon of Arrows = 1d6 x 4 for 8 hours for enemies approaching your camp, for a 2nd level spell
Druid: Plant Growth = 100ft radius around your camp is ultra difficult terrain indefinitely, for a 3rd level spell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Barrage = 1x 3d8 non-magical bludgeoning in a 60 ft cone for a 3rd level slot.
Druid: Erupting Earth = 1x 3d12 magical bludgeoning in a 20 ft cube for a 3rd level slot + difficult terrain.
Druid: Spike Growth = unlimited 2d4 magical piercing in a 20ft radius for a 2nd level slot + concentration + difficult terrain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ranger: Conjure Volley = 1x 40ft radius x 20 ft high 8d8 nonmagical piercing damage for a 5th level spell.
Druid: Cone of Cold = 60ft cone 8d8 cold damage for a 5th level spell
Druid: Malestrom = 30ft radius repeated 6d6 magical bludgeoning damage for a 5th level spell + concentration + pull effect + difficult terrain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranger: Swift Quiver = 2 extra ranged attacks per turn costing 5th level spell + concentration + BA each turn
Druid: Conjure Elemental = 2 extra melee attacks + bag of hit points costing 5th level spell + concentration
Druid: Conjure Animals = 4-8 extra melee attacks + many bags of hit points costing 3rd level spell + concentration
PS Yes Polymorph is on the Primal Spell list, as at a tone of cool spells ranger now gets access to.
Sorry, but I have to weigh in on this. The urge is too great.
If you're comparing call lightning to lightning arrow, then be aware it requires two turns for the former to overtake the latter in sheer damage. Except that's not entirely accurate, since the ranger is also making weapon attacks. They have Extra Attack, which means there's more potential damage we aren't including. I'll admit, I don't like the spell very much. I think it's costly for an all-or-nothing shot; rather than something smaller which can last the entire minute. It's basically a smite spell designed exclusively for ranged attacks. But over even three rounds of combat, which (right or wrong) is the standard assumption, it's solid.
The damage from conjure barrage and conjure volley is magical because the damage comes from the spell; not the nonmagical ammunition consumed as a material component. What the ammunition does is determine the damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) of the spell's effect. And I'd also like to draw attention to those areas of effect. If you're using the rules from the DMG, the 60-foot cone of conjure barrage hits the same number of targets as cone of cold (six), and conjure volley hits even more. The damage is comparable; with those ranger spells typically pulling ahead in raw numbers.
You can break the action economy with conjure animals, and conjure elemental comes with the risk of losing control should concentration ever be broken. More to the point, a container under the effect of swift quiver can duplicate any nonmagical ammunition; including anything adamantine or silvered. Judging by the text, I'd say it can even duplicate poisoned arrows since poison isn't inherently magical. That gives it setup and power beyond what most people consider, I think. Admittedly, this also highlights the ranger's reliance on the DM; moreso than most other classes. You need to have access to that poison, and that isn't guaranteed.
Something Tasha's, and now the playtest, are trying to rectify by attempting to "DM-proof" classes, features, and traits. Unfortunately, this may also stifle creativity at the table. We shouldn't want that.
and most of all conjure animals already was ranger
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Sorry what spell are you talking about? Cordon of arrows states:
So no it does not work with bear traps, caltrops or anything else. It only applies to nonmagical arrows or crossbow bolts.
Notice that it doesn't make an attack roll, and no where does it say it deals damage from the ammunition so RAW it does not stack with poison. It also no where says it makes noise to wake you up, and the creature takes 0 damage on a successful save. So this spell deals on average 7 piercing damage for a 2nd level spell with no guarantee to prevent you're party being ambushed. Compare this to a wizard casting Tiny Hut as a ritual.... which is available to them at the same level.
1.ever heard of tracking, and the worthlessness of conjure barrage is my whole point, and the survival isn’t with advantage if you didn’t cast hunter mark, still enhance ability is a spell!, and costs spellslots, and is polymorph even a primal spell, and if the ranger can’t do it on its own the class feature is gone
3.really, this means you say druids get better spells, and since ranger gets that too, you still need to compare it
Alarm spell should be in Primal list for the purpose of waking you, or at least give it to Ranger as class spell, maybe with a casting time of 1 minute as ritual? (the 10 min base is good in any case).
About skills, is hard for me to think about people playing only with what is hardwritten, that reduces the RPG stuff of a character to a set of paragraphs. In other games I played the skills were mainly what you can do, lacking of hard and strict class-and-level-attached features defining the only things you can do. In D&D you can get some specific abilities and features, but that not implies the skills are there for secondary, indeed the ability checks are part of the core itself, and the skills grant bonuses to them.
That sounds me more like laziness or be too used to old D&D style (2nd ed) with few options to do things. We have the base rule about DC vs roll result, but even in DMG we have more detailed rules to set partial success and total failures to compensate the lack of tables present in other games.
It is really so hard for securing the camp a Wis (Survival) check to set the alarms/traps, and Dex (Stealth), even using passive value, for hiding them to check against intruders perception?. Securing a camp is not a exclusive-ranger-feature, anyone used to survival could do it. The Hunter usually would have Survival and Stealth as expertise skills, so with that bonus should not be hard to secure the camp, or tracking as uses Survival.
“is it” not “it is”, unless you mean to agree with us.and against strong enemies yes it is,mention there is no feature for such a thing in fifth
1. Enhance ability gives you Adv on survival and perception regardless of terrain and applicable to unlimited types of checks and doesn't require you to be within 90 ft of the creature at some point to track it, thus almost always better than Hunter's Mark or favoured terrain/favoured foe. Tracking is a niche ribbon to Hunter's Mark not its primary use, because if you could cast Hunter's Mark on your target you almost always could have killed / captured them, so why do you need to track them?
3.
Ranger: Lightning Arrow = 4d6 lightning to 1 target and 2d6 lightning in 10ft radius once for the cost of 1 attack + 1 bonus action + concentration + 3rd level slot.
Druid: Call Lightning = 3d10 lightning in a 5ft radius every round as an action at the cost of 3rd level slot + concentration.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ranger: Cordon of Arrows = 1d6 x 4 for 8 hours for enemies approaching your camp, for a 2nd level spell
Druid: Plant Growth = 100ft radius around your camp is ultra difficult terrain indefinitely, for a 3rd level spell
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Ranger: Conjure Barrage = 1x 3d8 non-magical bludgeoning in a 60 ft cone for a 3rd level slot.
Druid: Erupting Earth = 1x 3d12 magical bludgeoning in a 20 ft cube for a 3rd level slot + difficult terrain.
Druid: Spike Growth = unlimited 2d4 magical piercing in a 20ft radius for a 2nd level slot + concentration + difficult terrain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ranger: Conjure Volley = 1x 40ft radius x 20 ft high 8d8 nonmagical piercing damage for a 5th level spell.
Druid: Cone of Cold = 60ft cone 8d8 cold damage for a 5th level spell
Druid: Malestrom = 30ft radius repeated 6d6 magical bludgeoning damage for a 5th level spell + concentration + pull effect + difficult terrain
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Ranger: Swift Quiver = 2 extra ranged attacks per turn costing 5th level spell + concentration + BA each turn
Druid: Conjure Elemental = 2 extra melee attacks + bag of hit points costing 5th level spell + concentration
Druid: Conjure Animals = 4-8 extra melee attacks + many bags of hit points costing 3rd level spell + concentration
PS Yes Polymorph is on the Primal Spell list, as at a tone of cool spells ranger now gets access to.
That's not a completely accurate statement. Pedantically, while (in the latest play test) casting a spell does interrupt a Long Rest, it's also true that "You can resume a Long Rest immediately after an interruption. If you do so, the rest requires 1 additional hour to finish per interruption." So your interruption for casting a spell just adds an hour to your Long Rest. It doesn't waste the Long Rest/etc. While at camp, you can re-cast such a spell, and all you've lost for doing so is an extra hour in camp.
So, even IF you needed to re-cast Snare, Non-Detection, Darkvision, Cordon of Arrows, Alarm, etc. mid-rest (after you cast them between making camp and starting your long rest), it only costs you an hour of extending your Long Rest to do so.
It's only a problem if you're having to re-cast several such spells, and your DM is pedantic about it (counting each casting as a separate interruption instead of considering one continuous set of events as a single interruption). But then, if they're being that pedantic, then each time you get hit and take damage during a mid-rest-combat will also add an hour, plus the hour added by the initiative roll that starts the combat. A combat interruption is going to extend your rest a lot more than one recasting of Non-Detection will.
sorry, I forgot that survival part,but the seeking part can include reminding how enemie act
I didn’t say ranger get better spells, but since that spells and the ability to cast them at high level aren’t included in the trade-for-feature things, so comparing spells that alway are prepared free as class feature with normal spells, means the features were better, since roscoeivan point was you should compare them.
may I note that the 5th lvl spell aoe of the ranger is the best, and in the original post of this thread one of my points was the worthlessness of conjure barrage
This is still a no "one ever would argument" I could break down how it's a forgone opinion and not an absolute conclusion.
In the end I want the game to allow filling in playstyle gaps. Trap masters and uniqueness to ranger are necessary places to fill. Even if there are various approaches.
However "that isn't needed" or my "narrative should dictate yours" is bad no matter if you like or hate the design tradeoffs of the phb.
The other thing one dnd seems to be doing well is clearing up the language. So people who believe taking a "strike" then damage is not doing damage can finally sleep at night.
We have definitely gotten into the weeds here. One D&D Ranger is good, and is better than 5e Ranger. Yes the Conjure Barrage feature is awful but everything else about it is really good, because it has access to the full Primal spell list and more spells prepared (and the ability to swap them on a LR) they have way more tools in their toolbelt for adapting to whatever environment they happen to be in at the moment rather than being stuck with features that only work in one type of terrain or against one particular type of enemy.
Sharing the formerly Ranger-specific spells with Druid does not undermine Ranger-identity because Druid is not weapon-oriented at all so the Ranger-specific spells just don't work for them and ranger-specific spells (other than Hunter's Mark) are pretty bad so were never class-defining aspects - this is unlike Cleric & Paladin because there are many Cleric class features and Cleric subclasses that orient them towards weapon-based combat.
Ranger has always been a skill-oriented class so gaining expertise and Enhance Ability actually support the class identity of Ranger.
what is the better toolbelt, the old favored enemy bonuses are only achievable through hunter’s mark, that is only against marked enemies, and getting marked enemies is hard and costs many spellslots, and the bonuses of natural explorer are gone, just gone permanent, together with camouflage and primeval awareness, what is left in the space are roving at 7th level and nature’s veil, roving is +10 speed and climbing speed, not a realy unique ability and nature’s veil is expending a spellslot on one round invisibility
Expertise is better than Favoured Enemy from level 5 onwards b/c the average increase in the result is the same and Expertise can stack with tons of other buffs and Expertise applies to all checks not just the very narrow case of tracking one particular type of enemy. Advantage on skill checks is a really weak feature because someone in the party taking the Help action give you the same thing. Ranger also have Hunter's Mark and Enhance ability to give themselves advantage if their party members are totally useless and don't use the Help action.
Natural Explorer almost never comes up in game play, so who cares if it is gone? Ignoring difficult terrain while traveling only matters if you are on a time crunch and are in the terrain you happen to have chosen and there is no road taking you where you want to go. Buying a map, climbing a tree and having expertise in survival also effectively negates the chance of getting lost. In a party based game, you'll never be traveling alone. And access to Goodberry means you never need to forage for food.
Pass without Trace is simply better and more practical than camoflage and the ability to use a skill check to make camoflage remains for all people. - why do you need a class feature to say you an do a thing that any decent DM would let you do anyway?
Primeval Awareness is nearly useless because it gives you so little information, made worse by the increase in non-humanoid player race options. Oh you're trying to track down a evil Fey? Hope you don't have a Satyr in the party of your Primeval Awareness is now completely useless. Looking for a vampire? Hope you don't have a Reborn or Dhampir in the party. It also doesn't tell you where or how many of them are there, so e.g. in a busy city or town it is completely useless again, in a cave system or dungeon filled with baddies it is useless again. Looking for an army of undead approaching the city, well you better hope there are no ghosts haunting any abandoned ruins. And even if you do sense something with it, you've still got to make an succeed on a survival check to find them anyway, which you could just have done in the first place and skip the whole Primeval Awareness thing.
The toolbelt is the ability to swap in and out spells depending on the environment. To pick up Water Breathing or Walk on Water if you're heading to sunken ruins, or to take Plant Growth if exploring a forest, or to take Faerie Fire if you're hunting something that can turn invisible, or swapping it out for Ensnaring Strike if you're hunting something that can fly that you need to ground for the melees in the party. It is grabbing Moonbeam if you're fighting werewolves or vampires, taking Goodberry and Create Water when crossing a desert, or snagging Fog Cloud and Pass without Trace if you need to sneak up on something. Picking up Snare if you're in a situation to set an ambush, Warding Wind if adventuring into places filled with toxic gases like volcanic regions. It is taking Protection against Poison when the party is heading into a swamp or hunting a venomous creature / green dragon, but swapping to Daylight when venturing into the Underdark or Shadowfell, it is grabbing Sleetstorm when attacking a cult of mages but taking Heat Metal if going up against some big dudes in armour. It is preparing Wall of Water when you're venturing to the Plane of Fire, but Control Water when venturing to the Plane of Water, or Stone Shape when venturing to the Plane of Earth.
Again I don't think we'll ever convince you of the value of features you are unwilling to explore. Vague "situational" claims are designed to end discussions rather than understand the actual frequency or quantify their value.
However the one ranger doesn't even hold up to the standard presented with the other experts in one dnd.
Leaving combat out of the equation:
Bards have expertise + jack of all trades
Rogues have expertise +reliable talent
Rangers just have expertise with no unique traits.
( note previously they had potential to stack advantage and "expertise" and unique riders ...creating a degree of skill based on quantifiable familiarity)
yes +30% bests +100%, sure.and stop with shoving all lost things to other part members duty
I don’t mean the skill check, but I always make up the wood elf and the ranger camouflage.
notice primeval awareness doesn’t need to be an “active” check, you can also navigate through dangerous terrain, for example, if you play baldur’s gate or a homebrew avernus campaign, you can look out, there will be fiends of course, but especially since dragonborn aren’t draconian, you can look out for dragons(same in the githyanki territory), you can use it to make sure you travel safe or to look out for enemy allies, since important armies use allies
as far as I know pass without trace was an only ranger spell, and protection against poison already was shared, and even if the toolbelt grew, I repeat one of the points of roscoeivan and I had was that spells need to be compared, and druids already had them, so making them free prepared isn’t enough to trade a whole class feature, the point wasn’t the primal spells weakened ranger (they weakened their uniqueness and they destroyed the idea, I mean if you want magic play or multiclass a druid, come on, but that isn’t relevant), but freely prepared isn’t enough to be better than a feature
Rangers have perks around things like mobility to represent travel based checks.
Rangers in one are just mechanically better. Calling something situational when it is literally situation is not a claim designed to stifle suggestion, it is just the reality of how the trait was designed.
That being said 2104 ranger had some abilities that were evocative even if they did not contribute much to the classes balance so keeping them and adding them back onto the one design I think would be a positive step.
Sorry, but I have to weigh in on this. The urge is too great.
Something Tasha's, and now the playtest, are trying to rectify by attempting to "DM-proof" classes, features, and traits. Unfortunately, this may also stifle creativity at the table. We shouldn't want that.
In response to post #54:
The mobility is combat oriented mobility not travel related because of the exception based travel rules. Also the replacement of "ignoring difficult terrain" with bonus to with "flat movement"... Directly is a drop in archetype mechanics. The guide, explorer, or tracking jobs that deliberately prefer "ranger" are no longer justified. A monk with its mobility(and purchased expertise ) should not be a better fit than ranger.
So mobility bonus is not a good secondary trait door defining experts.
Again "mechanically better" is such a vague term. (Just like situational). The one ranger focused on combat simplicity and reliability. (Which can be Admiral goals) it is designed for general appeal but doesn't support its archetypes well enough.
In The dragon warrior series some people love the poison needle while others hate it. (Insta kill or 1hp damage no middle ground) to call it "useless" because it misses or does little damage is ignoring the whole picture. It would be bad if the needle was the only option but so would its removal. It fills a gap at different parts of the experience.
I am not opposed to people saying things are "too situational" if they can back it up with accurate support. It's just some people turn it into truism arguments or unequal comparisons.
A beastmaster ranger with a beast favored enemy has 100% access to their favored enemy skill. Now you probably say I just made an unfair comparison and you would be right. Just like how others use "useless" or "situational" or cherry picked comparisons to skew points in their favor.
Help is not equal to advantage because it cuts out action economy out of the talk. Even outside of combat action economy matters. Using help means your not ritual casting or "Remaining alert "
Not to mention help as too powerful is bad design. Skills use in particular should require both to be trained to function.
Combat or tracking uses for primeval awareness ignore preparation and safety benefits. Negative information vs positive information have different value sets.
Saying part time expertise is flat out worse than expertise usually forgets the extra skills and tools it works with. I had expert "bonuses" in 9 skills in on one day as a phb ranger but then the next adventure I only had 1. Was it a good trade off.. maybe. I find I want arcana, and investigation just as much as survival or nature.
However, one dnd absolutely removes the possibility of that choice and doesn't give much in return for people who want character mechanics.
Pre-one dnd many people who enjoyed rangers didn't even use hunter's mark. They made HM more accessible but if it still isn't what they desire it won't make It "better."
I for one would rather have concentration free beast sense than hunter's mark.
I can't speak for anyone but myself and people who have informed me of what they want but one dnd missed the mark. The highest ranger satisfaction was when players got both tashas and phb to mix and match. A few tweaks to the phb design while retaining intent would increase satisfaction even more.
That doesn't guarantee it being magical, several spells specify that they deal nonmagical damage (see Wrath of Nature for one off the top of my head). The spell says it requires non-magical ammunition and the damage dealt is the same type as that ammunition thus would be non-magical. I agree this is stupid and might not be what is intended but RAW that's what it says.
Depends, but generally no. (I'm ignoring saves here b/c they are identical for the two spells).
Lightning arrow does not deal weapon damage, it only deals 4d8 single-target damage = 18 lightning
In terms of single-target damage on a character with 2 attacks per action, Lightning arrow slightly better Hunter's Mark, but significantly better than Call Lightning:
2x longbow + Hunter's Mark = 2d8+2*DEX+2d6 = 9+6+7 = 22
Lightning arrow + 1x longbow = 4d8+1d8+DEX = 18+4.5+3 = 25.5
Call lightning deals 3d10 single-target damage = 16.5 lightning
This is before considering that with Archery, your weapon attacks are much more likely to hit than enemies are to fail against a saving throw (depending on the enemy AC).
In terms of AoE damage, Lightning arrow is worse than Call Lightning:
Assuming only 2 enemies within 5ft of each other:
Lightning arrow = 4d8+2d8 = 27 lightning
Call Lightning = 6d10 = 33 lightning
This means you need at least 1 extra target within the radius Lightning Arrow than the radius of Call Lightning, but note that Call Lightning has more freedom w.r.t to targeting (to e.g. avoid your allies who are fighting the same enemies in melee) whereas Lightning arrow must target a creature and hits everyone around them including your friends..
Actually scratch that I wasn't fully accounting for Lightning Arrows mechanics (because no body uses it b/c it is bad).
Case 1: single-target damage
Given character with 70% chance to hit, 2 attacks per round and a generic longbow, and +4 DEX, vs an enemy with 50% chance to save on a Dex save.
Hunter's Mark + Longbow = 0.7*(4.5+4+3.5)*2 = 16.8 average DPR
Lightning Arrow + Longbow = 0.7*(18 + 4.5 + 4) = 18.55 DPR
Call Lightning = 0.5*3*5.5 + 0.5*0.5*3*5.5 = 12.4 DPR
Lightning Arrow is marginally better than Hunter's Mark, and as soon as you add a +1 longbow will be worse than Hunter's Mark. But significantly better than Call Lightning if you have 2 attacks. For a druid, Call Lightning is always superior since they do not have 2 attacks.
Case 2: 2 targets within 5ft of each other + 1 ally within 5ft of at least one of those targets.
Lightning Arrow = 0.7*(18+4.5+4) + 0.75*9 = 25 DPR to enemies + 4-7 DPR to allies
Call Lightning = 0.75*6*5.5 = 25 DPR to enemies + 0 DPR to allies
Against Multiple enemies Lightning Arrow and Call Lightning are either at parity or Call Lightning is superior depending on the nitty gritty details.
In both of these cases there are options that do nearly equal single-turn DPR as Lightning Arrow that also have sustained damage with similar or lesser costs in terms of resources.
Now hold on just a minute. First off, your calculations aren't entirely correct. (More on that below.) Second, apply your magic items consistently to both sets of attacks. It's only fair; since we should be aiming (hehe) to eliminate as many variables as possible.
In which case, the DPR for two longbow shots with hunter's mark increases to 19.5; because 0.75*(4.5+4+3.5+1)*2. And the DPR for lightning arrow and a single longbow shot is 24.375; because 0.75*(18+4+1+4.5+4+1). Yeah, you read that correctly. You still add your Dexterity modifier to the damage. The spell only changes the damage type and the number of dice. You're still making a weapon attack with the longbow, not a spell attack, so you still add your ability modifier to the damage roll. This means it can benefit from Sharpshooter, adding +10 more lightning damage, and can land a critical hit. That last part should not have escaped your notice.
Also, look at both spells again. You can't target a single creature with call lightning. It's a 5-foot AoE; centered on a point if you're playing on a grid. But lightning arrow targets a creature, and then it hits targets within 10-feet. And the point of origin is the target, not a point in space. The "area of effect" is functionally a 25-foot square, and a cube if their airborne. That, if you adhere to the suggestion in the DMG for abstract play, is five targets. That's five more enemies which can be hit for another 2d8 lightning damage; including the initial target. And it's five times as many targets as suggested for call lightning.
You're underselling the spell because you don't understand it. And I don't think you're alone in your assessment. I just think that's sad, and I want the record to show how it works properly.
and most of all conjure animals already was ranger