I mean, if you spent a Ki point and the enemy decided to not even attempt attacking you because of it, that's a more effective defense than them trying to attack you at disadvantage, not less. And I really wouldn't call ranged attacks "situational"; if you're not seeing archers of one flavor or another pop up relatively often, that's a table quirk, not an overall play issue. And if we're leaving 10+ out of consideration, then what exactly makes a Fighter so great? One repeated saving throw a day? Two additional attacks per Short Rest? As much as people try to hold the base Fighter class up as some ideal Monk is failing to live up to, the reality is that Monk has a lot more going for it than Fighter does feature-wise, particularly in early play. You can cherry pick arguments to make out like Monks are somehow neglected and deprived, but they objectively have a much larger kit for both interacting with the battlefield and interacting with the environment in general compared to Barbarians or Fighters. Bonus action to both Disengage and Dash in the same turn is pretty huge for controlling how they engage with the enemy, blocking ranged attacks further mitigates enemy attempts to concentrate fire on them, Evasion counters a good portion of the caster kit, and then they get the ability to just turn off several of the most prevalent status conditions casters and monsters toss out as well without even needing to pay Ki.
Honestly, saying a Paladin doesn't need CHA is a stretch; strictly speaking they can still operate in combat without it, but a lot of their features check for it, so you are going to see a marked decrease in the overall performance if you neglect it. Aura of Protection is the big one, but pretty over half the Channel Divinity options that are going to have an impact on the battlefield use the DC, as do several other subclass features and pretty much any spell you want to affect enemies with. Also, you could just as easily say that with their high AC, Lay on Hands, and bonus to saves from CHA, they don't need much CON so you can redistribute those points elsewhere. Kind of like how I said that Monks can divert their CON points elsewhere. Really, the priority of point allocation goes Attacking > AC > HP, so any points you assign to CON are more based on you deciding you wouldn't rather assign them elsewhere. And, practically speaking, a +2 in any skill you haven't put prof in is not going to pay off much, and even with the prof you're still not going to be particularly relevant if anyone who can focus on the relevant ability took the prof as well, so I don't entirely understand what you're looking for in the first place. If you want to be a dedicated skill-user, there's other classes you can take or feats that make up for not being able to get a +3 or more ability mod to it. If it's more a matter of image then remember this is a role playing game; play the role even if you aren't likely to be the Bard in a dance-off based on your skill mod.
Also, all classes are "multiple ability dependent" to a degree:
Casters still want a decent CON to maintain concentration, and compensate for lower class HP.
Half-casters want a good martial stat and a good casting stat.
Bards, on top of concentration concerns, either want DEX if they're taking one of the martial-leaning subclasses or INT/WIS for skills.
Barbarians rely on CON for durability and unarmoured defense.
Fighters need a good attack stat (STR or DEX) and CON for survivability.
Rogues want a good secondary stat for their skills.
Monks get their AC boosted by both DEX and WIS, and having a variety of features like Patient Defense and Evasion to help avoid damage lessens their need for CON.
Even so, not being able to cap out every stat a class relies on doesn't make them useless. Are a Paladin's spells useless if they don't have 20 CHA? Is a Fighter squishy if he doesn't have 20 CON? Is a Rogue "unoptimized" because he doesn't have 20 WIS?
Yeah, exactly. You can choose what to do. Everyone want more Dex and Con, obviously. More HP and higher AC, saves and Initiative never hurt. But that's not the point. You don't need them as desperately. A Monk without Wis/Dex has no AC, and they're restricted to melee so it's not as simple to get by.
Bards can choose what off-stat to increase. Fighters who use ranged attacks can dump Str and Fighters with heavy armour can more or less dump Dex, and in either case invest in another stat. Rogues can invest in literally any stat and be just fine. Barbarians need Con for durability - just like the Monks do - and can use armour if they don't invest too much in Con (or, until Unarmoured Defence finally becomes better than armour, which it probably wouldn't).
But none of these examples depend on those secondary stats as much as a Monk on Wis. A Barbarian would definitely want to max Str.
Yeah, if you think the Rogue's 10 cm long dagger would actually hurt a 3 story tall dragon, a Sumo wrestler can be just as effective.
A dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye regardless of size. Body checking someone even just the same size as you rarely does permanent damage. Wrestling as a whole is a sport where the goal is NOT to seriously hurt your opponent, so no they shouldn't deal as much damage as an assassin cutting the enemy's achilles' heel with a dagger.
A dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye regardless of size. Body checking someone even just the same size as you rarely does permanent damage. Wrestling as a whole is a sport where the goal is NOT to seriously hurt your opponent, so no they shouldn't deal as much damage as an assassin cutting the enemy's achilles' heel with a dagger.
Pretty sure a wrestler intimidated by a dragon will definitely try to seriously hurt the dragon to save their life. And then, a punch to the eye carrying a lot of kinetic energy through high mass is a punch to the eye carrying a lot of kinetic energy through high mass regardless of size. If they're vulnerable in a certain area they are vulnerable to anyone, not just Rogues.
And while they probably won't cut the dragon's achilles' heel - if it has one - they can hurt it in other ways that Rogues can't. Like breaking their bones, crushing their skull. A sledge hammer breaks walls, but walls break knives. And what is a sledge hammer if not a lot of tough mass with some momentum?
Personally, I think the problem of being MAD is how little you can vary your build.
Frankly, that's just how some classes work, particularly MAD ones. I don't see nearly as many people moaning about how you can't vary your Paladin based on stats, even though it's pretty much the exact same situation.
The difference is paladins are a S tier class so some variance still puts them in the one of the best at the table category. Monks are D tier so any variance puts them in the worst at the table category. Paladins can survive being MAD and not being cookie cutter, unless some massive changes happen to the monk, they can't.
The TL:DR is: Some people want monk to be 20 different things to cover every possible unarmed fighter imaginable. This is impractical since there are just as many possible unarmed warriors as there are armed warriors and we have 5 whole classes for different types of armed warriors.
Who's asking for 20 different things? Other martial core classes support both Dexterity and Strength builds, so why not Monk? Monk literally only has one possible core build unless you're a Tortle (who doesn't need Unarmored Defence); asking for a second option isn't unreasonable. And there is only really one change required, which is to make Unarmored Defence 10 + Wisdom + your choice of either Strength or Dexterity, that's it.
With that one tiny change you have access to a Strength build that can focus on grappling. The class is no less MAD, it's still Wisdom centric (if you want your save DCs to be any good) and the trade-off for grappling/shoving is that Deflect Missiles isn't as good (since that's Dexterity based). More variety, more player freedom, for a tiny change with zero balance issues.
While some might argue that the Barbarian is Strength only, it would be a more complex change to make to allow Dexterity to be viable for that class, as there's intentional separation between Strength for attacking and Dexterity for Unarmored Defence on that class.
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Might as well remind folks that homebrew is always an option, if you can find a DM/group who's cool with that, if your specific fantasy doesn't fit with the overall vision/fantasy for a class.
It's interesting how "MAD" keeps getting thrown around, yet folks still think a class should be able to support any combination of stats a player wishes to put into it. Are you going to pump your Fighter full of INT and then complain that the base game doesn't fit your fantasy of a swordsman whose skill lies in study of technique rather than raw physical ability?
I'm not huge on monks needing a Strength option or something, but strawmaning their point isn't helpful. There are 2 or 3 common tropes of unarmed fighters, all of which would be represented best by a different stat. It would be nice if the one unarmed class in the game covered at least two of those tropes. No one is asking for classes to cover every possibility, but covering the most common concepts would be nice. And the interesting thing is they already have an example of how to do this in one with the warlock and their pact boons. If at first you picked combat style with each style capable of using one of two stats it would help with this The hard style could use either Strength or Dex, the soft style either Dex or wisdom, the balanced style strength or wisdom. At level 1 each style would get some small perk representing their fighting style, at level 5 it would upgrade.
And while none of that is needed as all they really need to do is knock out a balanced class I also can't see the problem with it outside people who just hate change for the sake of change.
I'm not huge on monks needing a Strength option or something, but strawmaning their point isn't helpful. There are 2 or 3 common tropes of unarmed fighters, all of which would be represented best by a different stat. It would be nice if the one unarmed class in the game covered at least two of those tropes. No one is asking for classes to cover every possibility, but covering the most common concepts would be nice. And the interesting thing is they already have an example of how to do this in one with the warlock and their pact boons. If at first you picked combat style with each style capable of using one of two stats it would help with this The hard style could use either Strength or Dex, the soft style either Dex or wisdom, the balanced style strength or wisdom. At level 1 each style would get some small perk representing their fighting style, at level 5 it would upgrade.
And while none of that is needed as all they really need to do is knock out a balanced class I also can't see the problem with it outside people who just hate change for the sake of change.
Id love to see something like this. Each style comes with two primary stats, you choose one to be your unarmed attack modifier, one to be your Discipline Point save DC modifier, and then 10+each modifier becomes your unarmored defense calculation. With Discipline Points now removing some of the "mystical" flavor compared to ki, it could make sense that a more "athletic" or "acrobatic" style might rely on Strength or Dexterity instead of Wisdom.
Playing around with this idea, features might look something like---
Martial Tradition
At 1st level, you choose one of the following traditions to adopt for your martial arts. Each tradition lists two ability scores. You choose one to act as your Martial ability score and the other to act as your Discipline ability score. Certain features you obtain in this class will refer to each of these scores.
Way of Aggression. Select from Strength and Dexterity to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities. Starting at 2nd level, you can use Flurry of Blows without expending discipline points a number of times equal to your Discipline ability modifier. You regain all expended uses following completion of a long rest.
Way of Tolerance. Select from Dexterity and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities. Starting at 2nd level, you can use Patient Defense without expending discipline points a number of times equal to your Discipline ability modifier. You regain all expended uses following completion of a long rest.
Way of Conviction. Select from Strength and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities. Starting at 2nd level, you can use Step of the Wind without expending discipline points a number of times equal to your Discipline ability modifier. You regain all expended uses following completion of a long rest.
Martial Versatility
Starting at Xth level, each time you complete a long rest you can switch which ability score from your Martial Tradition is acting as your Martial ability score and which is acting as your Discipline ability score.
At Yth level, you can switch your Martial and Discipline abilities this way each time you finish a short or long rest.
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Multiclassing
If your group uses the multiclassing rules in the Player’s Handbook, here’s what you need to know if you choose Monk as one of your classes.
Ability Score Minimum. As a multiclass character, you must have a score of at least 13 in two of the following abilities to take a level in this class or to take a level in another class if you are already a Monk: Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom
Saving Throw Proficiency. When you take a level in this class while you already have levels in another class, you do not gain the saving throw proficiencies listed in the Martial Tradition feature.
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Ideas for how each ability score is used in the language for existing features
Martial Ability Score
Attack/damage bonus for unarmed attacks
Unarmored defense
Deflect Missile damage reduction
Saving throw proficiency
Discipline Ability Score
Martial discipline save DC
Unarmored defense
Saving throw proficiency
If the monk makes it to OneD&D in its current itteration or mostly similar, I would love to see some version of this idea implemented in homebrew.
The Monk is an unarmed fighter, so use the Fighter template when building them.
A d10 Hit Dice, a Fighting Style (although different and set up to support unarmed fighting), Second Wind, Action Surge, two extra ASIs (so you can max dex and wis early), and two extra Extra Attacks. Then apply the Monk features on top of that.
That probably means ditching the free Bonus Action unarmed strike, and Flurry of Blows (which gets you to four attacks per round. If you're giving them four attacks per Attack action, then giving them free Bonus Action attacks is probably excessive. Maybe 1 BA attack at the cost of 1 Ki/Spirit/Discipline.
Make Ki equal to Monk level + Dexterity modifier.
Disagree. Special points like this, like Sorcery Points, are set to match level. That's what makes sense IMO. However, I could see a Feat that grants you 2 extra points (just like a Sorcerer can take). 2 Ki/S/D and one or two special abilities (or enhancement to specific Monk abilities). Maybe +2 Ki and +1 or +2 to AC.
Make saving throws against Monk effects against their Dexterity modifier, not their Wisdom modifier.
Strongly disagree. You've basically made them parallel to a Fighter, the mystical Fighter subclasses that have DC's don't use STR or DEX (or even CON) for their DC. AA, EK, and PW both use INT. Keep the Monk's DC based on WIS, like it already is.
Step of the Wind doesn't require Ki.
Agnostic about this one. You've basically made Flurry of Blows free at high level. I don't think the Monk needs any breaks with regard to Ki costs.
Sumo wrestlers aren't martial artists, they're barely fighters at all - they are entertainers, and would be utterly useless as adventures. Sumo wrestlers is mostly about sheer size, good luck using sheer size dominance against a Dragon as big as a 3 story building. It absolutely should not be possible to make a Sumo wrestler an effective character.
Well, your average priest probably wouldn't be very useful as an adventurer, but that doesn't seem to stop people. Not that I think Monk should be able to fill that role (Barbarian makes the most sense, they're the chunkiest), just that that's a fantasy that shouldn't be denied simply for being fantastical.
There's a strong spiritual emphasis and purpose to them. It could be a Cleric or Druid subclass. Seasons, Poverty, Purity, or Pushing (So "Circle of the Season", "Circle of Poverty", "Poverty Domain", "Warrior of the Seasons", "Warrior of Pushing", or some variation of those). One benefit should be an equivalent of having the Tough feat.
Disagree. Special points like this, like Sorcery Points, are set to match level. That's what makes sense IMO.
I agree with your other points, but this one is just convention, there's no special reason they need to be equal to level; Rage uses on a Barbarian aren't one per level, it's just whatever it says in the table. There's no special reason Discipline points can't scale differently, similar to how spellcasters can prepare multiple spells at first level, but only prepare one extra per level after that.
The question really is whether they should for balance reasons; more points at 1st- or 2nd-level means front-loading the class even further, which makes it stronger for multi-classing. Monk already gives quite a bit at 1st-level if you want Unarmored Defence and/or Martial Arts for a build, front-loading Discipline will make a one or two level dip far more valuable than any "Disciplined Fighting" feat or whatever Wizards of the Coast might want to release later (if they do release one).
For me the question really is what do you want to spend these points on at low levels? For example, if Monk could Disengage or single-dash as a bonus action for free, that would limit Discipline points mainly to Flurry of Blows and Patient Defence at early levels, which would be less pressure on resources. Just because you can use Flurry of Blows early doesn't mean you have to, a second attack as a bonus action is already good at early levels, and Patient Defence is much stronger for a weaker lower level character IMO. Monk's scaling issues aren't in the early levels, they come later.
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Is there really any reason to have ki/discipline/whatever points in the first place? Just give them a specific number of uses of each ability per short rest. Or per long rest.
Ive always thought Monks should be able to deflect projectiles within a range of themselves and until their next turn. That way they can help the party even if they have to roll to catch each individual shot. I also agree monks should have access to a unique Unarmed weapon mastery
Is there really any reason to have ki/discipline/whatever points in the first place? Just give them a specific number of uses of each ability per short rest. Or per long rest.
The point is the versatility; a shared resource can be spent however you like, in the same way as spell slots, rather than each option being more limited. This way you can use Patient Defence 20 times per short rest if you want to.
If you want to go for the no Ki/Discipline route, if some of the Monk abilities were a little weaker or scaled differently you could probably argue they shouldn't cost anything, as you can only take one bonus action per turn anyway.
For example, you could make Step of the Wind a free Dash or Disengage, Patient Defence maybe adds half your proficiency to AC, Flurry of Blows could be one attack but adds half proficiency to damage on all unarmed strikes in the same turn. That would be roughly balanced enough that you could get away with these all just being free bonus actions from 2nd-level onwards, no need for a resource, easier to play.
You would then only need limited uses for additional stronger abilities?
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Monk is up there do unarmed attacks. When you hit a target they are most likely going to hit you back. As a Monk you will be spending 4 of your 5 ASI's to increase DEX and WIS. Both for AC, DEX for To Hit and Damage and WIS for DC on Monk Abilities. This results in fewer points going to CON (unless you make other three stats your dump stat. PLease give them D10 for HD.
Ther Bard Dancer has damage Dice progression a bit faster than monk AND Sharable class features AND Multiple resources. FULL CASTER (Endless cantrips and up to 9th level spells) and BARDIC INSPIRATION.
Ther Bard Dancer has damage Dice progression a bit faster than monk AND Sharable class features AND Multiple resources. FULL CASTER (Endless cantrips and up to 9th level spells) and BARDIC INSPIRATION.
And at most two attacks per round, one of them based on using a very limited resource. The Bard is a full caster who can make unarmed attacks, but they are by no means a dedicated unarmed fighting full caster. Cantrips will be about as good as punches in tiers 1 and 2, and outstrip them from tier 3 on, and that's not even getting into actual spellcasting. Really, the unarmed attacking as whole is more a ribbon than a dedicated damage feature.
Interestingly, the Bard only having d8 Hit Dice is not at all whatsoever a detriment to them for whatever reason...
I expect that's because they're a full-caster with access to good control and defence spells, so there can be a lot less danger in being in melee, plus it means their hit dice is no worse than a martial class that's meant to be able to hold its own.
They may not be quite as good at raw punching compared to the monk, but they do also have the potential to take steel wind strike at 9th-level which is about as anime "monk" as it's possible to get (the weapon casting component is basically redundant anyway, and you can just re-theme it as force punching).
Plus at 17th-level you can just get wish (which seriously, literally every caster now has in the OneD&D playtest) and wish to be so good at punching that the next enemy you punch instantly dies. It might not work, but it's more than the monk can do.
Intentionally silly comparisons aside, I'm inclined to agree that it's a bit galling to have such a half-arsed monk update alongside College of Dance being basically monk-lite but with full-casting, when casters being stronger than martials is part of the entire problem in 5e.
As an aside I also just don't really see why College of Dance has martial abilities; it should be a DEX caster with required somatic components, leave College of Swords for martial bards (given them an unarmed option if you must, or leave that for a fighting style feat) and ditch College of Valor because I've never seen the point of Valor when Swords exists.
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They might as well just be a Fighter subclass at that point.
Also, I'm always going to refuse an offer to take Wisdom out of the Monk. At that point, it's a different class; Monks aren't just martial artists. I think a much better way to solve the MAD problem (and a very cool and thematic way, in my opinion) is to make it so that a Monk's hit points scale off of their Wisdom rather than their Constitution.
They could have always been a Fighter subclass.
A Paladin is a Holy fighter.
A Ranger is a Druid fighter.
A Monk is a fist fighter.
And keying the save of an effect off of a primary combat ability instead of a secondary one is why Battlemaster works. Imagine how successful Battlemaster would (not) be if, instead of its strength or dex, you took your saves against its charisma or intelligence.
Fixing Monk requires acknowledging that it cannot work with the spread of points we generate with current methods. There's a reason that the fix to Warlock Pact of the Blade was to create the Hex Warrior feature, and later add it to Pact of the Blade. You get two good stats with Points Buy or Standard Array, along with five ASIs. Not three. Good constitution is needed for HP, especially when you're a d8 class. You need your primary combat stat, dexterity for Monk, and then you might have enough for a medium third stat.
Paladins could have a similar problem to Monks, except heavy armor means they can dump dexterity, and charisma is a stat that's nice to have, but they can manage without too much of it. Monks need wisdom currently, but they also need dexterity and constitution. Barbarians only need 14 dexterity for medium armor, and can focus on strength and constitution.
Giving Monks HP based on Wisdom would be a possible fix, but I doubt it's one that WotC would actually embrace.
Ther Bard Dancer has damage Dice progression a bit faster than monk AND Sharable class features AND Multiple resources. FULL CASTER (Endless cantrips and up to 9th level spells) and BARDIC INSPIRATION.
And at most two attacks per round, one of them based on using a very limited resource. The Bard is a full caster who can make unarmed attacks, but they are by no means a dedicated unarmed fighting full caster. Cantrips will be about as good as punches in tiers 1 and 2, and outstrip them from tier 3 on, and that's not even getting into actual spellcasting. Really, the unarmed attacking as whole is more a ribbon than a dedicated damage feature.
Paladin-6 + Bard(Dancer-14) will outperform a Monk-20 at all things a Monk can do.
Ther Bard Dancer has damage Dice progression a bit faster than monk AND Sharable class features AND Multiple resources. FULL CASTER (Endless cantrips and up to 9th level spells) and BARDIC INSPIRATION.
And at most two attacks per round, one of them based on using a very limited resource. The Bard is a full caster who can make unarmed attacks, but they are by no means a dedicated unarmed fighting full caster. Cantrips will be about as good as punches in tiers 1 and 2, and outstrip them from tier 3 on, and that's not even getting into actual spellcasting. Really, the unarmed attacking as whole is more a ribbon than a dedicated damage feature.
Paladin-6 + Bard(Dancer-14) will outperform a Monk-20 at all things a Monk can do.
Not really; you need 13 in STR for the dip, which really cuts into your ability to optimize your ability score spread, given that you're still gonna want DEX, CHA, and CON. Plus a six level dip is massively clunky for anything short of 4th tier play.
I mean, if you spent a Ki point and the enemy decided to not even attempt attacking you because of it, that's a more effective defense than them trying to attack you at disadvantage, not less. And I really wouldn't call ranged attacks "situational"; if you're not seeing archers of one flavor or another pop up relatively often, that's a table quirk, not an overall play issue. And if we're leaving 10+ out of consideration, then what exactly makes a Fighter so great? One repeated saving throw a day? Two additional attacks per Short Rest? As much as people try to hold the base Fighter class up as some ideal Monk is failing to live up to, the reality is that Monk has a lot more going for it than Fighter does feature-wise, particularly in early play. You can cherry pick arguments to make out like Monks are somehow neglected and deprived, but they objectively have a much larger kit for both interacting with the battlefield and interacting with the environment in general compared to Barbarians or Fighters. Bonus action to both Disengage and Dash in the same turn is pretty huge for controlling how they engage with the enemy, blocking ranged attacks further mitigates enemy attempts to concentrate fire on them, Evasion counters a good portion of the caster kit, and then they get the ability to just turn off several of the most prevalent status conditions casters and monsters toss out as well without even needing to pay Ki.
Honestly, saying a Paladin doesn't need CHA is a stretch; strictly speaking they can still operate in combat without it, but a lot of their features check for it, so you are going to see a marked decrease in the overall performance if you neglect it. Aura of Protection is the big one, but pretty over half the Channel Divinity options that are going to have an impact on the battlefield use the DC, as do several other subclass features and pretty much any spell you want to affect enemies with. Also, you could just as easily say that with their high AC, Lay on Hands, and bonus to saves from CHA, they don't need much CON so you can redistribute those points elsewhere. Kind of like how I said that Monks can divert their CON points elsewhere. Really, the priority of point allocation goes Attacking > AC > HP, so any points you assign to CON are more based on you deciding you wouldn't rather assign them elsewhere. And, practically speaking, a +2 in any skill you haven't put prof in is not going to pay off much, and even with the prof you're still not going to be particularly relevant if anyone who can focus on the relevant ability took the prof as well, so I don't entirely understand what you're looking for in the first place. If you want to be a dedicated skill-user, there's other classes you can take or feats that make up for not being able to get a +3 or more ability mod to it. If it's more a matter of image then remember this is a role playing game; play the role even if you aren't likely to be the Bard in a dance-off based on your skill mod.
Yeah, exactly. You can choose what to do. Everyone want more Dex and Con, obviously. More HP and higher AC, saves and Initiative never hurt. But that's not the point. You don't need them as desperately. A Monk without Wis/Dex has no AC, and they're restricted to melee so it's not as simple to get by.
Bards can choose what off-stat to increase. Fighters who use ranged attacks can dump Str and Fighters with heavy armour can more or less dump Dex, and in either case invest in another stat. Rogues can invest in literally any stat and be just fine. Barbarians need Con for durability - just like the Monks do - and can use armour if they don't invest too much in Con (or, until Unarmoured Defence finally becomes better than armour, which it probably wouldn't).
But none of these examples depend on those secondary stats as much as a Monk on Wis. A Barbarian would definitely want to max Str.
Varielky
A dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye regardless of size. Body checking someone even just the same size as you rarely does permanent damage. Wrestling as a whole is a sport where the goal is NOT to seriously hurt your opponent, so no they shouldn't deal as much damage as an assassin cutting the enemy's achilles' heel with a dagger.
Pretty sure a wrestler intimidated by a dragon will definitely try to seriously hurt the dragon to save their life. And then, a punch to the eye carrying a lot of kinetic energy through high mass is a punch to the eye carrying a lot of kinetic energy through high mass regardless of size. If they're vulnerable in a certain area they are vulnerable to anyone, not just Rogues.
And while they probably won't cut the dragon's achilles' heel - if it has one - they can hurt it in other ways that Rogues can't. Like breaking their bones, crushing their skull. A sledge hammer breaks walls, but walls break knives. And what is a sledge hammer if not a lot of tough mass with some momentum?
Varielky
The difference is paladins are a S tier class so some variance still puts them in the one of the best at the table category. Monks are D tier so any variance puts them in the worst at the table category. Paladins can survive being MAD and not being cookie cutter, unless some massive changes happen to the monk, they can't.
Who's asking for 20 different things? Other martial core classes support both Dexterity and Strength builds, so why not Monk? Monk literally only has one possible core build unless you're a Tortle (who doesn't need Unarmored Defence); asking for a second option isn't unreasonable. And there is only really one change required, which is to make Unarmored Defence 10 + Wisdom + your choice of either Strength or Dexterity, that's it.
With that one tiny change you have access to a Strength build that can focus on grappling. The class is no less MAD, it's still Wisdom centric (if you want your save DCs to be any good) and the trade-off for grappling/shoving is that Deflect Missiles isn't as good (since that's Dexterity based). More variety, more player freedom, for a tiny change with zero balance issues.
While some might argue that the Barbarian is Strength only, it would be a more complex change to make to allow Dexterity to be viable for that class, as there's intentional separation between Strength for attacking and Dexterity for Unarmored Defence on that class.
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I'm not huge on monks needing a Strength option or something, but strawmaning their point isn't helpful. There are 2 or 3 common tropes of unarmed fighters, all of which would be represented best by a different stat. It would be nice if the one unarmed class in the game covered at least two of those tropes. No one is asking for classes to cover every possibility, but covering the most common concepts would be nice. And the interesting thing is they already have an example of how to do this in one with the warlock and their pact boons. If at first you picked combat style with each style capable of using one of two stats it would help with this The hard style could use either Strength or Dex, the soft style either Dex or wisdom, the balanced style strength or wisdom. At level 1 each style would get some small perk representing their fighting style, at level 5 it would upgrade.
And while none of that is needed as all they really need to do is knock out a balanced class I also can't see the problem with it outside people who just hate change for the sake of change.
Id love to see something like this. Each style comes with two primary stats, you choose one to be your unarmed attack modifier, one to be your Discipline Point save DC modifier, and then 10+each modifier becomes your unarmored defense calculation. With Discipline Points now removing some of the "mystical" flavor compared to ki, it could make sense that a more "athletic" or "acrobatic" style might rely on Strength or Dexterity instead of Wisdom.
Playing around with this idea, features might look something like---
Martial Tradition
At 1st level, you choose one of the following traditions to adopt for your martial arts. Each tradition lists two ability scores. You choose one to act as your Martial ability score and the other to act as your Discipline ability score. Certain features you obtain in this class will refer to each of these scores.
Way of Aggression. Select from Strength and Dexterity to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities. Starting at 2nd level, you can use Flurry of Blows without expending discipline points a number of times equal to your Discipline ability modifier. You regain all expended uses following completion of a long rest.
Way of Tolerance. Select from Dexterity and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities. Starting at 2nd level, you can use Patient Defense without expending discipline points a number of times equal to your Discipline ability modifier. You regain all expended uses following completion of a long rest.
Way of Conviction. Select from Strength and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities. Starting at 2nd level, you can use Step of the Wind without expending discipline points a number of times equal to your Discipline ability modifier. You regain all expended uses following completion of a long rest.
Martial Versatility
Starting at Xth level, each time you complete a long rest you can switch which ability score from your Martial Tradition is acting as your Martial ability score and which is acting as your Discipline ability score.
At Yth level, you can switch your Martial and Discipline abilities this way each time you finish a short or long rest.
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Multiclassing
If your group uses the multiclassing rules in the Player’s Handbook, here’s what you need to know if you choose Monk as one of your classes.
Ability Score Minimum. As a multiclass character, you must have a score of at least 13 in two of the following abilities to take a level in this class or to take a level in another class if you are already a Monk: Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom
Saving Throw Proficiency. When you take a level in this class while you already have levels in another class, you do not gain the saving throw proficiencies listed in the Martial Tradition feature.
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Ideas for how each ability score is used in the language for existing features
Martial Ability Score
Discipline Ability Score
If the monk makes it to OneD&D in its current itteration or mostly similar, I would love to see some version of this idea implemented in homebrew.
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That probably means ditching the free Bonus Action unarmed strike, and Flurry of Blows (which gets you to four attacks per round. If you're giving them four attacks per Attack action, then giving them free Bonus Action attacks is probably excessive. Maybe 1 BA attack at the cost of 1 Ki/Spirit/Discipline.
Disagree. Special points like this, like Sorcery Points, are set to match level. That's what makes sense IMO. However, I could see a Feat that grants you 2 extra points (just like a Sorcerer can take). 2 Ki/S/D and one or two special abilities (or enhancement to specific Monk abilities). Maybe +2 Ki and +1 or +2 to AC.
Strongly disagree. You've basically made them parallel to a Fighter, the mystical Fighter subclasses that have DC's don't use STR or DEX (or even CON) for their DC. AA, EK, and PW both use INT. Keep the Monk's DC based on WIS, like it already is.
Agnostic about this one. You've basically made Flurry of Blows free at high level. I don't think the Monk needs any breaks with regard to Ki costs.
There's a strong spiritual emphasis and purpose to them. It could be a Cleric or Druid subclass. Seasons, Poverty, Purity, or Pushing (So "Circle of the Season", "Circle of Poverty", "Poverty Domain", "Warrior of the Seasons", "Warrior of Pushing", or some variation of those). One benefit should be an equivalent of having the Tough feat.
I agree with your other points, but this one is just convention, there's no special reason they need to be equal to level; Rage uses on a Barbarian aren't one per level, it's just whatever it says in the table. There's no special reason Discipline points can't scale differently, similar to how spellcasters can prepare multiple spells at first level, but only prepare one extra per level after that.
The question really is whether they should for balance reasons; more points at 1st- or 2nd-level means front-loading the class even further, which makes it stronger for multi-classing. Monk already gives quite a bit at 1st-level if you want Unarmored Defence and/or Martial Arts for a build, front-loading Discipline will make a one or two level dip far more valuable than any "Disciplined Fighting" feat or whatever Wizards of the Coast might want to release later (if they do release one).
For me the question really is what do you want to spend these points on at low levels? For example, if Monk could Disengage or single-dash as a bonus action for free, that would limit Discipline points mainly to Flurry of Blows and Patient Defence at early levels, which would be less pressure on resources. Just because you can use Flurry of Blows early doesn't mean you have to, a second attack as a bonus action is already good at early levels, and Patient Defence is much stronger for a weaker lower level character IMO. Monk's scaling issues aren't in the early levels, they come later.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Is there really any reason to have ki/discipline/whatever points in the first place? Just give them a specific number of uses of each ability per short rest. Or per long rest.
Ive always thought Monks should be able to deflect projectiles within a range of themselves and until their next turn. That way they can help the party even if they have to roll to catch each individual shot. I also agree monks should have access to a unique Unarmed weapon mastery
The point is the versatility; a shared resource can be spent however you like, in the same way as spell slots, rather than each option being more limited. This way you can use Patient Defence 20 times per short rest if you want to.
If you want to go for the no Ki/Discipline route, if some of the Monk abilities were a little weaker or scaled differently you could probably argue they shouldn't cost anything, as you can only take one bonus action per turn anyway.
For example, you could make Step of the Wind a free Dash or Disengage, Patient Defence maybe adds half your proficiency to AC, Flurry of Blows could be one attack but adds half proficiency to damage on all unarmed strikes in the same turn. That would be roughly balanced enough that you could get away with these all just being free bonus actions from 2nd-level onwards, no need for a resource, easier to play.
You would then only need limited uses for additional stronger abilities?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Monk is up there do unarmed attacks. When you hit a target they are most likely going to hit you back. As a Monk you will be spending 4 of your 5 ASI's to increase DEX and WIS. Both for AC, DEX for To Hit and Damage and WIS for DC on Monk Abilities. This results in fewer points going to CON (unless you make other three stats your dump stat. PLease give them D10 for HD.
Ther Bard Dancer has damage Dice progression a bit faster than monk AND Sharable class features AND Multiple resources. FULL CASTER (Endless cantrips and up to 9th level spells) and BARDIC INSPIRATION.
And at most two attacks per round, one of them based on using a very limited resource. The Bard is a full caster who can make unarmed attacks, but they are by no means a dedicated unarmed fighting full caster. Cantrips will be about as good as punches in tiers 1 and 2, and outstrip them from tier 3 on, and that's not even getting into actual spellcasting. Really, the unarmed attacking as whole is more a ribbon than a dedicated damage feature.
I expect that's because they're a full-caster with access to good control and defence spells, so there can be a lot less danger in being in melee, plus it means their hit dice is no worse than a martial class that's meant to be able to hold its own.
They may not be quite as good at raw punching compared to the monk, but they do also have the potential to take steel wind strike at 9th-level which is about as anime "monk" as it's possible to get (the weapon casting component is basically redundant anyway, and you can just re-theme it as force punching).
Plus at 17th-level you can just get wish (which seriously, literally every caster now has in the OneD&D playtest) and wish to be so good at punching that the next enemy you punch instantly dies. It might not work, but it's more than the monk can do.
Intentionally silly comparisons aside, I'm inclined to agree that it's a bit galling to have such a half-arsed monk update alongside College of Dance being basically monk-lite but with full-casting, when casters being stronger than martials is part of the entire problem in 5e.
As an aside I also just don't really see why College of Dance has martial abilities; it should be a DEX caster with required somatic components, leave College of Swords for martial bards (given them an unarmed option if you must, or leave that for a fighting style feat) and ditch College of Valor because I've never seen the point of Valor when Swords exists.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
They could have always been a Fighter subclass.
A Paladin is a Holy fighter.
A Ranger is a Druid fighter.
A Monk is a fist fighter.
And keying the save of an effect off of a primary combat ability instead of a secondary one is why Battlemaster works. Imagine how successful Battlemaster would (not) be if, instead of its strength or dex, you took your saves against its charisma or intelligence.
Fixing Monk requires acknowledging that it cannot work with the spread of points we generate with current methods. There's a reason that the fix to Warlock Pact of the Blade was to create the Hex Warrior feature, and later add it to Pact of the Blade. You get two good stats with Points Buy or Standard Array, along with five ASIs. Not three. Good constitution is needed for HP, especially when you're a d8 class. You need your primary combat stat, dexterity for Monk, and then you might have enough for a medium third stat.
Paladins could have a similar problem to Monks, except heavy armor means they can dump dexterity, and charisma is a stat that's nice to have, but they can manage without too much of it. Monks need wisdom currently, but they also need dexterity and constitution. Barbarians only need 14 dexterity for medium armor, and can focus on strength and constitution.
Giving Monks HP based on Wisdom would be a possible fix, but I doubt it's one that WotC would actually embrace.
Paladin-6 + Bard(Dancer-14) will outperform a Monk-20 at all things a Monk can do.
Not really; you need 13 in STR for the dip, which really cuts into your ability to optimize your ability score spread, given that you're still gonna want DEX, CHA, and CON. Plus a six level dip is massively clunky for anything short of 4th tier play.