Do you like the UA version from Playtest 6 or prefer the 5e version?
The 5e version is "bad, wouldn't prepare because there's better spells". The UA version is "better than 5e, but still wouldn't prepare because there's better spells".
I’m still irritated that the spell is Enchantment and not Necromancy, you would think the ultimate example of snuffing the life from someone would be Necromancy and Necrotic. The only reason to make it Enchantment is because the Enchanter is a solid subclass while the Necromancer is a pale imitation of every edition prior.
I’m still irritated that the spell is Enchantment and not Necromancy, you would think the ultimate example of snuffing the life from someone would be Necromancy and Necrotic. The only reason to make it Enchantment is because the Enchanter is a solid subclass while the Necromancer is a pale imitation of every edition prior.
Maybe I can help out there (though not a huge fan of either the 5e version or the UA version, actually most of the way that UA was done): it is enchantment because its main focus is to apply a "status condition" to the target and the target happens to be a creature. It doesn't, by RAI, suck out the life force of the target or anything like that (though it definitely might in your games and then I'd be totally for you changing/HBing it into necromancy), but by RAI (which is to say lore-wise, though not made explicit in RAW) you are simply overwriting reality, it is part of "real world" True Name magic and all, (which I could see as being Transmutation of you're changing the base attributes of a thing, but I digress). Still bad, but maybe it helps you come to terms with it.
Do you like the UA version from Playtest 6 or prefer the 5e version?
The 5e version is "bad, wouldn't prepare because there's better spells". The UA version is "better than 5e, but still wouldn't prepare because there's better spells".
This but I'd add "since 2024 Bards get it for free I'll probably cast it at least once."
It has sucked since 3e. The thing they forget 3e on is the reason power word spells were previously okay was their cast time. In 2e the cast time of meteor swarm is 9 so pretty much everything, especially at those levels goes first. And if you got hit before you got the spell off it was lost, there was no concentration check to keep the spell. Power word kill had a cast time of 1, so unless you rolled really bad on initiative you got it off. 3e on they added concentration and removed cast times. They bumped the damage range as HPs went up but forgot the core reasons the spells existed, they were a single word of power with a cast time of 1.
There is no easy fix like bumping its damage as if the damage gets much higher it breaks things, no save insta kills kind of suck. They need to make it a bonus action cast, or maybe add some line that you can cast it without using any action.
Do you like the UA version from Playtest 6 or prefer the 5e version?
It's actually better because it's not all or nothing limited by HP. But then how many campaigns make it to 17th level and beyond? Disintegration would likely be the better option?
There is no easy fix like bumping its damage as if the damage gets much higher it breaks things, no save insta kills kind of suck. They need to make it a bonus action cast, or maybe add some line that you can cast it without using any action.
I can maybe see it being a little more tempting as a bonus action; could take it on a Blade Singer to cast on top of a weapon attack plus a cantrip for some pretty heavy single target damage, for when you want to really make your displeasure known to a snarky NPC. 😂
Main problem is that for a single target damage spell it actually seems kind of weak; though that's because we're comparing to the likes of meteor swarm which will usually do more damage to a single creature anyway thanks to it being 2x 20d6 damage, so an average of 160 on a failed save, or 80 with a success, compared to the automatic 12d12 psychic fallback which is 78 or so. Granted meteor swarm is an area so hard to target, but unless your DM gives you good reasons not to nuke the entire area it's hard to see why you'd pick power word pain over it given the choice.
I guess it's somewhat in line with psychic scream with the latter able to hit multiple targets but doing less if they save, so it might be an argument that meteor swarm really ought to be nerfed a bit considering it's well beyond the DMG recommendations for damage on a 9th-level spell.
Makes it hard to evaluate changes to a 9th-level spell though when we don't really know what their intention is for higher levels spells in general; are they going to nerf some of them and/or distinguish them more? e.g- give wish a longer casting time so it's more of an out of combat utility spell rather than basically the only spell anyone is going to pick unless their ultimate aim is to turn in a dragon and/or spoon?
They haven't really talked much about late game balance though so we're stuck trying to evaluate changes to a spell that don't seem good enough in isolation, meaning they've probably gotten mostly useless feedback as a result. They really needed to put power word kill in a playtest with a lot of higher level spells so we have some idea of what other changes they should be compared against.
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Meteor swarm is a significant outlier on damage, I think they meant to have it do 20d6 total, not 20d6 twice. The theoretical standard for a 9th level multitarget spell is 14d6.
There is no easy fix like bumping its damage as if the damage gets much higher it breaks things, no save insta kills kind of suck. They need to make it a bonus action cast, or maybe add some line that you can cast it without using any action.
The action isn't the limiting factor though. The limiting factor is that you only get 1x 9th level spell slot per day. Why would you use it for a single-target 80-ish damage, when you could use it to turn into a dragon that can deal the same damage to an area and give you a ton of other stuff? Why would you even learn the spell, when the only thing it does is damage whereas True Polymorph or Wish can do damage or a thousand other things you might need.
Meteor swarm is a significant outlier on damage, I think they meant to have it do 20d6 total, not 20d6 twice. The theoretical standard for a 9th level multitarget spell is 14d6.
Meteor Swarm is the "nuke an army" spell. It's supposed to be balanced by the area of effect making it unusable in most situations.
On a totally unrelated note, the evoker subclass is a mistake.
There is no easy fix like bumping its damage as if the damage gets much higher it breaks things, no save insta kills kind of suck. They need to make it a bonus action cast, or maybe add some line that you can cast it without using any action.
The action isn't the limiting factor though. The limiting factor is that you only get 1x 9th level spell slot per day. Why would you use it for a single-target 80-ish damage, when you could use it to turn into a dragon that can deal the same damage to an area and give you a ton of other stuff? Why would you even learn the spell, when the only thing it does is damage whereas True Polymorph or Wish can do damage or a thousand other things you might need.
PWK is one of those spells that works better on an NPC. A high-level caster up against a bunch of mid-level PCs can use it to drop one character instantly, which is impressive and scary, but doesn't immediately turn into a TPK. (And revivify means it's not even taking a player out of the fight, but it leaves the players scrambling.)
But yeah, for a player, the power words aren't that hot as a regular-action spell.
Meteor swarm is a significant outlier on damage, I think they meant to have it do 20d6 total, not 20d6 twice. The theoretical standard for a 9th level multitarget spell is 14d6.
That standard is for upcasting a lower-level spell - upcasting a fireball to 9th-level for example will cause you to land on exactly 14d6. On-level spells are allowed to spike above these tabulated guidelines, because they have the additional costs of needing a high-level preparation and (in most cases) a straight-classed build.
Note how the same guideline you linked proposed 6d6 for a 3rd-level multitarget, yet both Fireball and Lightning Bolt spike above that from a 3rd-level slot.
Meteor swarm is a significant outlier on damage, I think they meant to have it do 20d6 total, not 20d6 twice. The theoretical standard for a 9th level multitarget spell is 14d6.
Meteor Swarm is the "nuke an army" spell. It's supposed to be balanced by the area of effect making it unusable in most situations.
On a totally unrelated note, the evoker subclass is a mistake.
There is no easy fix like bumping its damage as if the damage gets much higher it breaks things, no save insta kills kind of suck. They need to make it a bonus action cast, or maybe add some line that you can cast it without using any action.
The action isn't the limiting factor though. The limiting factor is that you only get 1x 9th level spell slot per day. Why would you use it for a single-target 80-ish damage, when you could use it to turn into a dragon that can deal the same damage to an area and give you a ton of other stuff? Why would you even learn the spell, when the only thing it does is damage whereas True Polymorph or Wish can do damage or a thousand other things you might need.
PWK is one of those spells that works better on an NPC. A high-level caster up against a bunch of mid-level PCs can use it to drop one character instantly, which is impressive and scary, but doesn't immediately turn into a TPK. (And revivify means it's not even taking a player out of the fight, but it leaves the players scrambling.)
But yeah, for a player, the power words aren't that hot as a regular-action spell.
Honestly, I’d say Stun and Pain are pretty good. Stun has a significantly larger HP window, and Pain comes online early enough that the HP window is less of an issue. They’re not necessarily top tier, but slapping a debuff on a boss without giving them a chance to LR it away isn’t nothing.
That standard is for upcasting a lower-level spell - upcasting a fireball to 9th-level for example will cause you to land on exactly 14d6.
No it isn't, it's in the published rules for new spells. This doesn't mean I think those rules are generally followed, but 40d6 is so far ahead of any other spell in the game that I'm inclined to consider it an error, not intended. Possibly additional evidence: Sofina has a power that is identical in all ways to meteor swarm -- except it does half as much damage.
That standard is for upcasting a lower-level spell - upcasting a fireball to 9th-level for example will cause you to land on exactly 14d6.
No it isn't, it's in the published rules for new spells. This doesn't mean I think those rules are generally followed, but 40d6 is so far ahead of any other spell in the game that I'm inclined to consider it an error, not intended. Possibly additional evidence: Sofina has a power that is identical in all ways to meteor swarm -- except it does half as much damage.
I'm not saying you're wrong about Meteor Swarm specifically being overtuned. What I'm saying is that the "theoretical standard" of 14d6 you linked is not actually the expected damage value for an on-level 9th.
That standard is for upcasting a lower-level spell - upcasting a fireball to 9th-level for example will cause you to land on exactly 14d6.
No it isn't, it's in the published rules for new spells. This doesn't mean I think those rules are generally followed, but 40d6 is so far ahead of any other spell in the game that I'm inclined to consider it an error, not intended. Possibly additional evidence: Sofina has a power that is identical in all ways to meteor swarm -- except it does half as much damage.
I'm not saying you're wrong about Meteor Swarm specifically being overtuned. What I'm saying is that the "theoretical standard" of 14d6 you linked is not actually the expected damage value for an on-level 9th.
Fireball is another overtuned AoE; they’ve expressly admitted as much, and the 14d6 comes from the DMGs section on creating spells. It is theoretically the standard metric one could compare spell damage to; granted, the operative word there is “theoretically”.
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Do you like the UA version from Playtest 6 or prefer the 5e version?
The 5e version is "bad, wouldn't prepare because there's better spells". The UA version is "better than 5e, but still wouldn't prepare because there's better spells".
TBH, I don't know why Power Word Kill exists. It's such an uninteresting spell... Disintegrate is just so much better.
I’m still irritated that the spell is Enchantment and not Necromancy, you would think the ultimate example of snuffing the life from someone would be Necromancy and Necrotic. The only reason to make it Enchantment is because the Enchanter is a solid subclass while the Necromancer is a pale imitation of every edition prior.
Power Word Kill is a spell that simply shouldn't exist.
As long as it only works below a certain HP level, it makes sense and plays as it should, though it doesn't play as the player like it.
Players want a simple one shot kill to wipe out bosses.
PWK is there to instakill the smaller sub bosses to save your resources and time.
(Deleted)
Maybe I can help out there (though not a huge fan of either the 5e version or the UA version, actually most of the way that UA was done): it is enchantment because its main focus is to apply a "status condition" to the target and the target happens to be a creature. It doesn't, by RAI, suck out the life force of the target or anything like that (though it definitely might in your games and then I'd be totally for you changing/HBing it into necromancy), but by RAI (which is to say lore-wise, though not made explicit in RAW) you are simply overwriting reality, it is part of "real world" True Name magic and all, (which I could see as being Transmutation of you're changing the base attributes of a thing, but I digress). Still bad, but maybe it helps you come to terms with it.
This but I'd add "since 2024 Bards get it for free I'll probably cast it at least once."
It has sucked since 3e. The thing they forget 3e on is the reason power word spells were previously okay was their cast time. In 2e the cast time of meteor swarm is 9 so pretty much everything, especially at those levels goes first. And if you got hit before you got the spell off it was lost, there was no concentration check to keep the spell. Power word kill had a cast time of 1, so unless you rolled really bad on initiative you got it off. 3e on they added concentration and removed cast times. They bumped the damage range as HPs went up but forgot the core reasons the spells existed, they were a single word of power with a cast time of 1.
There is no easy fix like bumping its damage as if the damage gets much higher it breaks things, no save insta kills kind of suck. They need to make it a bonus action cast, or maybe add some line that you can cast it without using any action.
Interesting doesn't equate to most effective.
It's actually better because it's not all or nothing limited by HP. But then how many campaigns make it to 17th level and beyond? Disintegration would likely be the better option?
I can maybe see it being a little more tempting as a bonus action; could take it on a Blade Singer to cast on top of a weapon attack plus a cantrip for some pretty heavy single target damage, for when you want to really make your displeasure known to a snarky NPC. 😂
Main problem is that for a single target damage spell it actually seems kind of weak; though that's because we're comparing to the likes of meteor swarm which will usually do more damage to a single creature anyway thanks to it being 2x 20d6 damage, so an average of 160 on a failed save, or 80 with a success, compared to the automatic 12d12 psychic fallback which is 78 or so. Granted meteor swarm is an area so hard to target, but unless your DM gives you good reasons not to nuke the entire area it's hard to see why you'd pick power word pain over it given the choice.
I guess it's somewhat in line with psychic scream with the latter able to hit multiple targets but doing less if they save, so it might be an argument that meteor swarm really ought to be nerfed a bit considering it's well beyond the DMG recommendations for damage on a 9th-level spell.
Makes it hard to evaluate changes to a 9th-level spell though when we don't really know what their intention is for higher levels spells in general; are they going to nerf some of them and/or distinguish them more? e.g- give wish a longer casting time so it's more of an out of combat utility spell rather than basically the only spell anyone is going to pick unless their ultimate aim is to turn in a dragon and/or spoon?
They haven't really talked much about late game balance though so we're stuck trying to evaluate changes to a spell that don't seem good enough in isolation, meaning they've probably gotten mostly useless feedback as a result. They really needed to put power word kill in a playtest with a lot of higher level spells so we have some idea of what other changes they should be compared against.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Meteor swarm is a significant outlier on damage, I think they meant to have it do 20d6 total, not 20d6 twice. The theoretical standard for a 9th level multitarget spell is 14d6.
The action isn't the limiting factor though. The limiting factor is that you only get 1x 9th level spell slot per day. Why would you use it for a single-target 80-ish damage, when you could use it to turn into a dragon that can deal the same damage to an area and give you a ton of other stuff? Why would you even learn the spell, when the only thing it does is damage whereas True Polymorph or Wish can do damage or a thousand other things you might need.
Meteor Swarm is the "nuke an army" spell. It's supposed to be balanced by the area of effect making it unusable in most situations.
On a totally unrelated note, the evoker subclass is a mistake.
PWK is one of those spells that works better on an NPC. A high-level caster up against a bunch of mid-level PCs can use it to drop one character instantly, which is impressive and scary, but doesn't immediately turn into a TPK. (And revivify means it's not even taking a player out of the fight, but it leaves the players scrambling.)
But yeah, for a player, the power words aren't that hot as a regular-action spell.
That standard is for upcasting a lower-level spell - upcasting a fireball to 9th-level for example will cause you to land on exactly 14d6. On-level spells are allowed to spike above these tabulated guidelines, because they have the additional costs of needing a high-level preparation and (in most cases) a straight-classed build.
Note how the same guideline you linked proposed 6d6 for a 3rd-level multitarget, yet both Fireball and Lightning Bolt spike above that from a 3rd-level slot.
Honestly, I’d say Stun and Pain are pretty good. Stun has a significantly larger HP window, and Pain comes online early enough that the HP window is less of an issue. They’re not necessarily top tier, but slapping a debuff on a boss without giving them a chance to LR it away isn’t nothing.
No it isn't, it's in the published rules for new spells. This doesn't mean I think those rules are generally followed, but 40d6 is so far ahead of any other spell in the game that I'm inclined to consider it an error, not intended. Possibly additional evidence: Sofina has a power that is identical in all ways to meteor swarm -- except it does half as much damage.
I'm not saying you're wrong about Meteor Swarm specifically being overtuned. What I'm saying is that the "theoretical standard" of 14d6 you linked is not actually the expected damage value for an on-level 9th.
Fireball is another overtuned AoE; they’ve expressly admitted as much, and the 14d6 comes from the DMGs section on creating spells. It is theoretically the standard metric one could compare spell damage to; granted, the operative word there is “theoretically”.